Exploring Below Ambient Water Cooling

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You're going with 3?

With one on the CPU itself? (You'll have to insulate the motherboard)

You'd better read from the beginning of this peltier setup of all the problems I've had to overcome with just 1 peltier.

You're going to need one serious power supply!

With 3 you'll be adding a guaranteed 1,000W power load on top of the overclocked computer load to your home electrical bill.

Good Luck!
 


Yeah, It seems with one you are hitting a perfect sweet spot Ryan...I would think 3 would not be efficient at all. Does Delta T have a huge impact on the efficiency of a TEC?

CJ
 


There are quite a few adjustment and tweaking factors to arrive at the sweet spot IE;

Water Flow Rate;
(affects the cold conduction of the peltier to the water flowing through the water block, too fast and the water does not get cold fast enough, too slow and the block can freeze, presently set on level 2 of 5 settings using a Swiftech MCP655 pump. Flow rate is also a consideration when balancing out the system, regarding taking into consideration the CPUs water block flow restriction. The perfect balance is having the peltier water block able to completely counter the heat the CPU is adding to the water.)

Water Volume in the Cooler ;
(The higher the volume level or total mass, and I started experimenting with 10 gallons, the longer it takes to cool the entire mass of water, which still required ice to force drop the water temperature to an acceptable operating level. Using a lower volume of water reducing the thermal mass, allows faster cooling transfer to the water, eliminating the need for ice altogether, which is presently 4 gallons)

Insulation of water layer in the cooler;
(This will be a variable with a large capacity cooler ruuning lower levels of water leaving an air space in the upper space of the cooler, it would not be necessary with a cooler closer to the 4 gal I'm presently using, however my cooler is a 13.5 gallon total capacity, so the insulation layer floating on the water, keeps the open air cavity above the water level from affecting the water temperature. The principle of heat rises is in effect inside the cooler even with the lid securely closed the air in the cooler is warmer than the water, insulating the water surface aids maintaining colder water temperature levels.)

Peltier clamping pressure;
(Started with about approximately 35psi standard heat sink clamping pressure, then increased to 50psi+ then after discovering on the net even higher pressure was needed increased to approximatel 100psi, and each pressure increase increased cooling performance, so I'm presently at approximately 100psi heat sink clamping pressure to the peltier, put it this way, I'm way past finger tight.)

The above is really a progress summary and are variables to the effectiveness of using this peltier add on, as far as efficiency is concerned all I can say is it's doing what I need, and wanted it to do, I don't think it would be marketed to the world anytime soon, and will take someone as crazy as I am, to run it in the first place, but it does work very well.

Regarding Delta T, will be very difficult to even begin to calculate when the actual coolest it is capable of producing has not as yet even been discovered, my goal was to find a solution eliminating the addition of ice to the cooler, and allow an operating temperature down to 10c, and this will go below 10c, so my goals have been met but that does not answer the Delta T question.

Fully insulating the tubing;
(should need no explanation but if you don't fully insulate the tubing runs, the cold loss to ambient will be significant)

Voltage supplied;
(This is definitely a direct affect on the peltiers efficiency because of only supplying 12v to a 15v spec'd peltier, for me however this is not a variable. Power supply wise, I used what I had on hand vs buying a dedicated 15v switching power supply which is a little on the expensive side, any of us using computer power supplies readily available will be restricted to delivering 12v to the peltier. So the peltier is not operating at it's most efficient /~\ inefficient level of performance.)

Ryan

 


What did you use to achieve the 100psi mark and how did you measure the force?
 


I'm going from past experience from the Thermal Compound Roundup regarding a certain Thermal Compound (IC Diamond) that the representative refused to enter a test sample because their product required agreeing to a confirmed 50psi clamping pressure.

I did not have a problem going through all their requirements to submit a testing sample and giving their product 50psi of clamping pressure, and clamping pressure paper would be provided by them, and sent to a laboratory for test results at their expense for me to know the exact clamping pressure I was using.

The reason he refused to submit a testing sample was I informed him all the other TIMS would be tested at that same clamping pressure to be fair across the board.

The product representative knew some of the other TIMs would out perform theirs at that same 50psi clamping pressure, so he simply refused to enter a testing sample.

I was basically forbidden to discuss any of this regarding their product in the Thermal Compound Roundup itself, and did not even mention IC Diamond at all, but I can say whatever I want regarding IC Diamond in this thread.

The representative did not know I already had a tube of IC Diamond 24 in my possession.

I experimented with IC Diamond clamping pressure on my own, matching the pressure footprint results shown online at their website against my own testing and discovered 50psi spread results could be mimicked maxing the spring tension on the TRUE.

I've said approximately 100psi not actual, without some pressure clamping paper, I'm just estimating comparing standard know clamping pressure of 35psi that most heat sinks clamp by, and the learned comparison of the IC Diamond experience.

The Thermalright Ultra Extreme was know for being fully clamped down maxing the springs you could get approximately 50psi, and my comparative testing confirmed that, so I'm using that experience as a comparison.

I'm presently not using any springs and have just a measuring gauge to measure the gap between the base and clamp arms. I tightened as far as I could with finger pressure which would have easily given a 50psi + pressure, then continued with a pair of pliers.

Each of the 4 arms is equally tightened 1/16th or 1.5mm tighter than maximum finger tightening pressure.

So I'm just guessing at 100psi it could be + or - 10psi to 20psi in all actuality, but it is way past standard clamping pressure.

From online researching others clamping pressure used some claimed as high as 150psi to 200psi could be used, but I was afraid of damaging the peltier and there wasn't a clear answer to go with online so I approximated 100psi would be safe and so far it has been.

I understand not everyone has a Thermal Roundup experience under their belt so actual clamping pressure could turn out to be something to be experimented with.

Unless of course they want to go the pressure paper route, send it to a lab for testing, and sit around waiting for the results to to come back, to continue.

Otherwise there's no actual solid means to test it, but if the online consensus is correct the peltier can take much more than it looks like it can take anyway.

So even though I'm estimating 100psi, I'm apparently OK, as the present performance shows.

And for the record at 35psi standard heat sink clamping pressure, IC Diamond performed exactly the same as Artic Silver 5 and those results were under water and air cooling testing, you can check the Thermal Compound Roundup results in my sig to see what Artic Silver 5s performance results were.


 


Today is my lazy day!

And it was absolutely pouring rain earlier which makes a lazy day even more legitimate, even though when it comes to this type of thing this thread covers, it's something I just enjoy doing.

Water cooling itself is way past anything my friends would even consider, :non: and the water cooling I'm doing, to them, is bordering on insanity, :pfff: they get intimidated even seeing it in operation. 😱

I don't really see why as every car they drive is water cooled, and some of their motorcycles, but it seems computer water cooling is just past their concept of understanding?

Whatever!

Of course they don't understand overclocking either, so I guess their reactions shouldn't surprise me!

You have shown an interest in this from the beginning, and your input is appreciated, just wanted to tell you that! Ry
 
Just for the heck of it I use my home water supply to cool my SLI'd 480s. The blocks are huge and my lines do get milky looking pretty fast but other than that the blocks only get a little black looking on the inside.

Used to cool my Q9550 that way as well with the same results.

I cool my 2500K using a cooler like Ry minus the peltier. Works fine for the limited use my PC is seeing at this time. Actually it works darn good when using ice jugs when gaming too or just to see how far I can OC with satbility.
 


Yeah, about that exceptional loop, I believe amuffin asked for some pictures of this mystery setup of Arthurs, a loooong time ago and so far no pics?

Even though I know he has a new digital camera and plenty of problems to deal with at home, it's about time for those pics?

Eh Art? Ry
 
Okay.

Link 1

The white tubing is from my water supply and the clear is from my cooler.

I used tyes on the water supply lines just to prove that the flow thru the GPU blocks are so unrestricted that clamps (although desired) are not actually needed.

I did use clamps however on all of my CPU lines. As that block gets dirty it does create some back pressure. I removed the insulation for clarity.

I clean my CPU block about 2 ~ 4 months depending on its ability to cool according to Real Temp.

My GPU blocks have not been in very long but they are getting slightly black inside, no lime or calcium build up at all. That was the same as I experienced when using my home water supply to cool my OC'd Q9550. I cleaned that block ~ every 6 months.

My GPU temps at idle OC'd SLI 480s are ~30C, load ~ 45C using very little water flow as you can see.

So far this set-up provides me with all I desire. If I am not long on my PC I do not even add a ice jug to the cooler. Load temps on my CPU Never get above 44C.

I play MS FSX when I get the chance and it responds to higher clocks very well. Then I need ice jugs for my then 5.0 GHz OC.



 
Welcome to pictures 101 Art.

Your drain picture is fuzzy looking.

What is the Black Triangle in WC1? :) (Looks like a dead moth!) :lol:

WC2 & WC4 Look like your machine is in surgical intensive care!

Wait till Moto sees them.

Bottom line is if you're happy with it and it's doing what you want that's all that matters? Right!

For some reason I feel the urge to watch a Frankenstein laboratory movie! :lol:

Just Razzzing you Art! :lol:

Picture wise since you have a digital camera, I take multiple shoots of the same thing because you never know when a moth might fly in your cooler while you're snapping the shot, so that way you have more pictures to choose from, when one comes out fuzzy.

A 450 pixel width .png is what THG uses in their reviews around 120 DPI, that's why Crashmans (Thomas), pictures look so good, it's finding what works best with the software THG is using to get your best picture results, even in the forum.

Picturewise I'm not actually hacking on you with the THG details above, they are basically the same as what I use, and this shared THG info is for any others considering posting pictures here, that don't know the format and size THG uses.

It wouldn't be a bad idea if picture limits and types were clearly defined in the Rules of Conduct, so some of these picture posting fanatics here don't bog down the webpage, that of course did not happen since you created an linked album.

Thanks for the Pics man!

Have a great day Art! Ry

 
The peltier cooling has been in operation now 1 month and 8 days, as stated somewhere above I'm presently running 4 gallons of water, the lowest amount of water I have ever run in the cooler, with a layer of insulation on the water to keep as much cold in as possible.

Using no ice at all, the highest temperature I've reached in this time period is around 18c, that's 5c below my ambient, lowest has been around 10c, posting this at 15.3c and dropping.

This cooling method is definitely successful, the use of ice has been eliminated, however I still have that option for extreme overclocking testing, which makes the addition of the peltier cooler the best of both worlds.

Allows my 4500mhz overclock to run extremely cool, much cooler than a standard water cooling closed loop, or the best of the best air cooling. :)
 
Awesome, all that extra time on your hands now you aren't running to the freezer hehe
like yourself, Arthur has exemption from my cablewrath, you two are pushing limits and I refuse to pick at you guys for a few wires hanging here and there, its more in the galleries where the idea is to show off a build,
You wouldn't take a muddy lamborghini with bald tyres to a cruise meet, so why post a 'lookitme' rig with bad C.m. in the gallery and assume the value of the components can excuse laziness?
not on my watch hehe
Moto
 
I admit my pics could have been much better. Just didn't take the time for it to be honest.

Pesky moths will just get in anything these days. :pfff:

I do tend to tidy things up if I am going to leave everything alone for a while AND if I have time. Other wise, its get it going and start the testing cycles to see if all is going as was hoped.

Ya, it don't always go as hoped. 😗

But I like it. :sol:


Art
 
Thinking out loud here so I'm not committing to anything just presently thinking it over.

I'm pondering since the peltier is presently working so well dropping the volume of water down to approximately a quart and using an XSPC dual bay reservoir I have on hand, reason being to recoup some room the 54qt cooler and RadBox are taking up.

Which would entail running the CPU and GPUs looped back in a single loop with the peltier cooling replacing the radiators in the RadBox and the need for the large cooler.

The negatives are I invested so much work in the RadBox and it is working so well, but it does occupy a lot of space so it's a weigh out the pros and cons, because I'm not sure of the cooling results dropping down to that low of a volume of water.

The first step would be to actually drop to the reservoir size with the CPU loop and see what happens, from my experience so far I'm anticipating the peltier dropping the water temperature in the reservoir too fast and if that's the case?

Adding the GPUs heat back to the entire loop should level it back to where it is now?

If that would turn out to be the case?

Then it would work?

I have more questions than answers regarding this new idea, I also am hesitant to modify a perfectly good operating setup for the unknown, of course the peltier was an unknown also and it has proven to be very successful, and how will we know unless someone tries it?

Like I said I'm presently pondering this idea I am not committing to do anything other than more than likely test the XSPC reservoir size and see what happens with that low of a volume of water, I can drop to maybe 2 gallons of cooler water and run new tests at that level without modifying anything.

I cannot drop any lower than 2 gallons with the cooler or I'll expose the intake to the pump and allow air into the loop so 2 gallons is as low as I can possibly go with the cooler, so I'll test that level first and see what happens.

Edit: I can always tilt the cooler to run a lower volume of water than 2 gallons without exposing the intake, just thought of that!
However I'll run the 2 gallon test first and see the comparison to the 4 gallon performance, that way I'll get an idea of what will happen with lower water volume.

2nd Edit: Managed to drop the water level to 1.5 gallons, will start testing when the water temp reaches 18c.

The insanity continues! Ry
 


Actually I was shopping for a smaller cooler this morning but was discovering the smaller cooler sizes have no draining hole as it is not necessary with a small cooler, I was looking for the smallest cooler option with a built in drain hole so I didn't have to butcher it any more than necessary.

So I was looking at my spare XSPC reservoir on the shelf which already has inlet and outlet holes and decided I could just insulate the outside of it, if the lower water level, does not get cold too fast?

Even if it does there are additional options like thermostat controlling it, but that may not be necessary with the heat of both the GPUs added to the same CPU loop?

😱 These are very interesting results, I energized the peltier at 8:37A water temp was 18.0c at 8:52A the water temperature was 17.0c, a 1c drop in 15 minutes.

In comparison to the 4 gallon testing the temperature drop time has been cut in half using 1 1/2 gallon of water which actually took approximately on the plus side of 30 minutes to drop 1c.

With the volume of water the reservoir holds I may not even have to insulate it?

This is kinda getting exciting! :)

I could just gut the RadBox and remod it, mounting the peltier cooling inside, and completely getting rid of the 54qt cooler, Maybe.
 
I'm actually really interested in this now. You could get one of those huge cases that can hold two PSU. Set up the TEC and the dual bay reservoir. You could end up with a water cooled setup that is completely contained in the case. Transportable even though you should check for leaks. Very interesting. My roommate would kill me however if I did this as he pays the electric bill and he already doesn't like my computer on 24/7.
 


All in one case is definitely a great idea but that would mean buying the case, my first step would be to use what I have, IE. Remod the RadBox, move the peltier P/S into it, with the peltier and reservoir and Swiftech MCP655 pump, instead of a RadBox, call it a PeltBox or TecBox or maybe BoxTec. :)

Anway you look at it, it will be major surgery to do it!

I'm not saying I won't entertain the idea of an all in one setup, just saying the wife will kill me!

That I'm not joking about! :??:

Just for the heck of it what type case did you have in mind?
 
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