Archived from groups: uk.rec.shooting.game (
More info?)
John <zero_one34@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xns95634824EF611OEcopyremovedheaders@130.133.1.4:
> Derry Argue <derry(delete)@adviegundogs.co.uk> wrote in
> news:Xns956262D7B1A28derryadviegundogscou@130.133.1.4:
>
>> There must surely be exceptions for vermin control? If so,
>> it is going to be very difficult to prove whether hunting
>> is "for sport" or for control.
>
> I don’t think hunting is generally effective in keeping fox
> numbers down.
Try snaring in sheep country.
Try lamping in forestry.
In some areas, hunting with hounds IS the only effective way of
controlling foxes, albeit with the addition of lurchers and
shotguns. These packs are generally referred to as "gun packs"
and, this far north, are often followed on foot because it would
be impossible to take a horse, let alone an ATV, on much of the
terrain. Much of the time these packs operate on "call out" to
deal with a specific problem and charge for their services. When
you get into defining what a pack of hounds is, things get
complicated.
> A few years back the hunt master complained that I was
> shooting all the foxes, her husband told me to carry on. So
> from my experience most people ride for the sport and not
> the job of vermin control but there are some areas where
> shooting isn’t practical and horse back hunting is the only
> really practical method of fox control. How common are
> these areas?, I don’t know.
But such areas undoubtedly exist. Take a look at a map of
the UK. Laws should apply universally. When there are
exceptions, the courts have to decide. Where there are too many
exceptions, it is called "bad law" as it cannot be enforced.
>
>>
>>> Will the ban effect ownership of horses in general
>>> (increased feed costs etc.)?
>>
>> In hunting country, undoubtedly.
>
> I live on the boundary of two hunts and my thought is that
> if the hunts stop taking carcass to feed the hounds the
> cost of the equestrian hobby will have already started to
> rise.
Ah, something I actually know about! The Animal By-Products
Regulations! The EU Parliament wants to see all fallen stock
incinerated. Period. It will be the owner who has to foot the
bill for disposal as already happens over much of Scotland,
except "remote areas" where burying is still allowed. I now need
a licence (with inspections, outrageous requirements, record
keeping, etc. and draconian fines if I put a foot wrong) to
allow me to feed beef tripe to my dogs.
>
>>
>>> Could such a ban be enforced?
>>
>> It is a legal requirement that all game shooters (and
>> falconers) have a game licence. How many do so and how
>> many times is this checked? That is something that is
>> relatively easy to check -- but isn't. How are the police
>> going to check what happens on private land and how do
>> they prove intent? Can they enter without a warrant? What
>> distinguishes a drag hunt from a fox hunt and how does a
>> copper tell the difference from the confines of his patrol
>> car?
>
> Yes, I agree.
>
>>
>> Many people who ride with the
>>> hunt claim they will ignore a ban.
>>> Would a ban secure the future of firearms used for vermin
>>> control or would this lead to more statutory
>>> qualifications run by the shooting organisations?
>>
>> If it did, would this be a bad thing? I meet far too many
>> shooting men who cannot identify common birds. I have
>> always felt a legal requirement for some sort of
>> qualification would be a good idea.
>
> I personally think that qualifications are a double headed
> sword which can just as easily be turned on the user.
> IMHO the DSC1 is a farce; the qualification is made void
> because of the vast differences in courses. Compare the DMQ
> HQ to the WJEC and you would be comparing chalk and cheese.
So it is up to the shooting organizations to get in there first.
I think government policy is to pass on the responsibility for
such tests to private organizations. As a sporting agent, it
horrified me how many "informed" shooting men did not know the
difference between a sparrowhawk and a kestrel, etc.
>
>>
>>> It has surprised me how much the DSC1 has become
>>> statutory and is required by the police and most stalking
>>> syndicates, would any further “vermin shooting
>>> qualifications” pose a threat to shooting or simply
>>> increase our public image?
>>
>> The latter. Although I am not certified!<G>
>
> Would you pay £300 to take a qualification that would teach
> you how to set snares, shoot foxes or lamp rabbits?
No, but then there is nothing to stop me offering such courses
at £150 if yours costs £300!<G> Presumably both courses would
need to be "approved" by some authoritative body but I would
definitely be against the BASC or other single organization
having a monopoly. I am no longer a member of any. They seem to
be appallingly managed. I asked for membership details of the
Countryside Alliance months ago -- and I'm still waiting! But it
is nice to know they don't need my money.
>
>>
>>> If fox hunting is banned, then hare coursing and stag
>>> hunting will also be banned. Would a ban on hare coursing
>>> increase hare numbers?
>>
>> No.
>
> I don’t think it would either.
>
>>
>> If so, is that a good thing or a bad
>>> thing and how would they be controlled?
>>
>> It was not unusual for us to shoot 600 (white/blue) hares
>> a day on the Grampians. (That's the limit as more than
>> that won't fit into two Land Rovers). That is better
>> control than could ever be achieved by coursing. But I
>> doubt whether shooting is as humane as coursing.
>>
>> Would there be less
>>> tolerance of low land deer on agricultural land?
>>
>> In Devon, less. The social pressures to leave the deer for
>> the hunt and tolerate some crop damage will be removed.
>
> How would you expect this to effect deer numbers?
An increase up to a level that will be tolerated by farmers.
The new agricultural grant structure may have a major
influence, when grants are paid on acreage and not on
production. As a small farmer, I am expecting to go from
livestock production to forestry. Unless I can control deer
myself, I will (reluctantly) have to pay someone to do it in
the establishment years. After that, I'll probably do nothing
due to old age!
>> Just my opinions but I do have an entry in Bailey's
>> Hunting Directory. Also, note the Labour Government's
>> priorities. Fox hunting is "more important than the
>> pensions bill"....
>
>
>
> John
>
It is interesting that no one else has replied to this question.
Is that an indicator of the level of concern?
Derry
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