News GeForce RTX 4060 May Consume More Power Than a RTX 3070

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If a product is really no good, it won't sell and if it doesn't sell enough, you make losses so you want even your worst product to at least be good enough to make a modest profit.
Not true. If customers don't have any other options, they will buy it anyway. Crappy or not. I don't like McDonalds. But since it's the only 24 hour restaurant in my area, I'll go there at off hours because that's the only option I have that's remotely close. The cheapest options will almost always sell ok, just because they are the cheapest option.

Spectrum and Comcast services have been trashed forever. Why do so many people still use them? Because they are the only usable broadband option where they live.

Adding all of the missing features to the Navi 24 die would cost ~$1, putting the extra components on the GPU card to hook up the extra DP output and PCIe lanes would add another $1, that is about it.

And they didn't do it. Why? Because it didn't make any difference. The product was going to sell anyway, since there was nothing cheaper available.
 
Not true. If customers don't have any other options, they will buy it anyway. Crappy or not. I don't like McDonalds. But since it's the only 24 hour restaurant in my area, I'll go there at off hours because that's the only option I have that's remotely close. The cheapest options will almost always sell ok, just because they are the cheapest option.

Spectrum and Comcast services have been trashed forever. Why do so many people still use them? Because they are the only usable broadband option where they live.



And they didn't do it. Why? Because it didn't make any difference. The product was going to sell anyway, since there was nothing cheaper available.
Congrats, you understand why monopolies are bad...
And the 6500 isn't selling very well, lol. It dropped below MSRP basically on arrival and never went out of stock, at all.
 
PS4 launched at $400 in 2013. In 2013, Nvidia's $400 offering was a GTX 770. That card was not a good pick for 1080p gaming in 2020, plus the 2GB of RAM was quite limiting,
Usually, when a new console generation launches, the hardware initially tends to be more powerful than what you can get from an equivalent PC for the money. As was mentioned, the manufacturer is subsidizing the cost of the hardware, expecting to make it back through software, peripheral and online service sales in the years that follow. That initial price advantage tends to fade not too long thereafter though. Your comparison is not that great in that the GTX 770 came out a number of months earlier, and the following year, the GTX 970 became available at a $330 MSRP, and was around 50% faster than a 770 (or roughly twice as fast as the PS4's graphics hardware), and that card is arguably still very viable for "mid-range" 1080p gaming today. Even the GTX 770 could likely keep up in most titles, being roughly close to the level of a 1650, at least provided one has the 4GB version (which cost around 10% more). I suspect you could probably run most games at better settings and get more performance on a 770 4GB than what a base-model PS4 can manage, considering the graphics hardware should be more powerful. You obviously shouldn't expect it to run newer, demanding games at high settings with a stable framerate, since the PS4 certainly isn't doing that either.

The last couple of years have demonstrated that Nvidia and AMD won't sell lowend products if they don't have to. They don't care if you don't want to spend more than X amount of dollars, they'll just ignore you and sell to someone who will pay that amount.
To be fair, they arguably couldn't sell the hardware at lower prices without resellers buying up all the stock and reselling the cards at inflated prices anyway. If someone's going to make a profit off the largely mining-induced inflated street pricing, it's arguably better for them to get a cut than all of it going toward a middle-man leaching off the market. At least this way, some of the profits can be put toward things like future research and development. The current pricing is still bad, but will likely continue to get better in the months to come.

No.

An 'optimisation' is taking an existing system, simplifying it whilst getting the same or indistinguishably similar output. That is not the case with non-RT rendering. There, you are taking a simplified rendering system and adding complexity in order to change the output to imitate more closely an RT output.
All that "complexity" can be thought of as an optimized way of producing a relatively similar result to raytraced graphics. Optimizations don't necessarily need to follow a similar path to produce the desired result.

Compared to other software, raytracing could be thought of a bit like uncompressed video. The means of rendering uncompressed video are simple, but very demanding in terms of the amount of data being transmitted or stored. Compression formats like H.264 replace that simple rendering method with all sorts of convoluted algorithms in order to optimize the file size of videos, at the expense of losing some precision of the resulting image. The result tends to be "close enough" though, at least if you don't look too close, and anyone streaming video online or storing it locally will appreciate the benefits of the more optimized format.

That's not to say raytracing is bad though. My point was more that the other methods of rendering game visuals have their advantages, and the big performance gains for a minor loss in visual fidelity are why developers have traditionally gone that route. And of course, that one shouldn't expect those other rendering methods to go anywhere for a number of years, since most of the target market for games won't have the necessary hardware to run raytraced effects well, meaning RT will only have a negative impact on ease of development for quite some time.
 
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All that "complexity" can be thought of as an optimized way of producing a relatively similar result to raytraced graphics. Optimizations don't necessarily need to follow a similar path to produce the desired result.
The problem is raster hacks don't[ produce the same desired result. e.g. screen-space reflections only 'work' in a very limited set of circumstances, and fundamentally cannot perform such simple tasks and reflecting the player model, cubemaps do not handle any moving objects (or changing lighting unless you render and switch between multiple cubemaps, layering a hack on a hack), etc.
Compared to other software, raytracing could be thought of a bit like uncompressed video. The means of rendering uncompressed video are simple, but very demanding in terms of the amount of data being transmitted or stored. Compression formats like H.264 replace that simple rendering method with all sorts of convoluted algorithms in order to optimize the file size of videos, at the expense of losing some precision of the resulting image. The result tends to be "close enough" though, at least if you don't look too close, and anyone streaming video online or storing it locally will appreciate the benefits of the more optimized format.

That's not to say raytracing is bad though. My point was more that the other methods of rendering game visuals have their advantages, and the big performance gains for a minor loss in visual fidelity are why developers have traditionally gone that route. And of course, that one shouldn't expect those other rendering methods to go anywhere for a number of years, since most of the target market for games won't have the necessary hardware to run raytraced effects well, meaning RT will only have a negative impact on ease of development for quite some time.
If you want a lossy/lossless encoding analogy to raytracing, that would be biased raytracing vs. unbiased raytracing. Unbiased raytracing is expensive because you have to sample a huge number of rays that contribute little or nothing to the final output. Biased raytracing makes guesses as to what rays will contribute the most and skips the others. That's what's already happening with some renders, and one of the big uses of tensor units within GPUs (apart from upscaling, which was a nice bonus found later): Train an AI model to make good estimates of what rays will contribute the most based on a simplified scene model, and you can produce an output closed to the unbiased baseline with a dramatic reduction in number of rays cast.
 
The problem is raster hacks don't[ produce the same desired result. e.g. screen-space reflections only 'work' in a very limited set of circumstances, and fundamentally cannot perform such simple tasks and reflecting the player model
Raster 'hacks' can do whatever the developers want them to do.

Reflecting the player model is a simple matter of rendering it to a temp buffer from the reflection's PoV and blending that into whatever else is getting reflected in an appropriate manner. Cube maps are just a shortcut to avoid having to re-render things that don't change in any meaningful way on every frame, the only thing stopping developers from animating them is efficiency. You can animate cube maps by re-rendering them if you have enough spare compute power to do that. If you want accuracy and have this much performance to spare, another option is to re-render the scene from the reflections' PoV into the surfaces instead of doing cube maps, which gives you RT-like reflections at <1% of the compute cost.
 
I wasn't aware the US is the only country in the "western world"-category, and that still doesn't say jack about the world at large. You are coming across as extremely haughty and entitled here, you know. I talk to people from places like Europe or even Israel, Asia and Australia regularly. Only two of them got one and 20+ want one, and they are sold out literally all the time everywhere. Patience? Means jack when they sell out in minutes at one random afternoon when everyone is at work. Yeah, it's SO easy to get one at MSRP. 17 million sold units is nothing if 40 million or more want one. I tried for two. Whole. Years. Don't give me this bs about only needing patience. Waiting for two years for a bloody console is just ridiculous. It's seriously an insult to anyone with a brain to release games for that console exclusively as long as a majority of people can't even get it. But hey, you got one, that means anyone can get one, huh. LOL
Register @ Playstation.direct that's how everyone I know got one. My one buddy was able to purchase in about two weeks. Mine took almost a month. I believe it's based on how active your PSN account is.
 
Register @ Playstation.direct that's how everyone I know got one. My one buddy was able to purchase in about two weeks. Mine took almost a month. I believe it's based on how active your PSN account is.
My best friend waited for 1.5 years. Again, the US is not everywhere. And yes, he has an active PSN account, he is the one who alerts me to giveaways and he just recently played Horizon Forbidden West on it. None of this changes that 500 bucks is too much for a one trick pony in my eyes, though. Especially when my computer can do so much more. The only reason I would get one is titles like Forbidden West and FFXVI, and two games is an awful reason to dish out that much money especially since both will release for PC anyways. It's just frustrating that you need to wait and frankly shows how fragile the console business actually is.
 
...meaning RT will only have a negative impact on ease of development for quite some time.
The thing that consumers of ray traced content seem to miss out on or don't understand is that ray tracing is an incredibly simple algorithm. So simple that someone created an application that generates a ray traced image that can fit on a business card. And the image it generates isn't fixed, you can change what it outputs with some tweaks to the parameters (https://fabiensanglard.net/rayTracing_back_of_business_card/).

From a developer standpoint, ray tracing simplifies development. While we can all meme that Jensen repeated the phrase "it just works", in this case, it does "just work." The problem with traditional rasterizers is there's a lot of quirks and limitations that get in the way of properly lighting a scene. A common one I keep seeing is lighting illuminating areas that clearly has no path to an obvious light source, like seeing the sunlight reflected off something that's in the sun's shadow. But otherwise, to do something like say global illumination, you either have to implement some other feature (like SVOGI), bake it in (which makes it incompatible with dynamic lights), or simulate it with fill lights.

In any case, here's an example of how ray tracing improved the developer's workflow when creating the lighting for a scene

The only negative impact RT will have on developers is if they designed their game around RT and have to include a non-RT render path, because now they have to do the work to make sure the lighting looks decent while at the same time making sure it doesn't affect the RT render path. This is probably why RT has been mostly relegated to reflections and shadows, since those don't impact or we expect them to impact the general lighting of the scene.

If you want accuracy and have this much performance to spare, another option is to re-render the scene from the reflections' PoV into the surfaces instead of doing cube maps, which gives you RT-like reflections at <1% of the compute cost.
Depending on how many reflective surfaces there are and the quality demanded of the output, performance will drop to a point where you may as well use ray tracing.

As AnandTech put it: "Or to put this another way: if you’re going to put in this much effort just to cheat, maybe it would be better to put that effort into accurately rendering a scene to begin with? "
 
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Depending on how many reflective surfaces there are and the quality demanded of the output, performance will drop to a point where you may as well use ray tracing.
Rasterizing from the reflections' PoV (a compute-efficient shortcut to path-tracing) will always be orders of magnitude faster than actual ray-tracing since you are only processing what is going to be visible instead of casting billions of rays that will get diffused to nothingness by the time they reach the camera.
 
Rasterizing from the reflections' PoV (a compute-efficient shortcut to path-tracing) will always be orders of magnitude faster than actual ray-tracing since you are only processing what is going to be visible instead of casting billions of rays that will get diffused to nothingness by the time they reach the camera.
Except rays don't "reach the camera", they emit from the camera. And any ray that bounces off a reflective surface gets included in the step of shooting those rays out, as long as your ray tracer includes the step to generate secondary rays from whatever surface they hit.

Ray tracing gets you everything in a single pass. With rasterizing, you have to make multiple passes to achieve various things.
 
The only negative impact RT will have on developers is if they designed their game around RT and have to include a non-RT render path, because now they have to do the work to make sure the lighting looks decent while at the same time making sure it doesn't affect the RT render path. This is probably why RT has been mostly relegated to reflections and shadows, since those don't impact or we expect them to impact the general lighting of the scene.
So if developers don't fully commit to RT, like with ME: E, then adoption will only take longer or it may even remain as a gimmick? New game(s) should be RT or bust.
 
So if developers don't fully commit to RT, like with ME: E, then adoption will only take longer or it may even remain as a gimmick? New game(s) should be RT or bust.
Well, adoption will take a while anyway until the amount of people who have hardware accelerated raytracing capable cards gets to a certain point.

I wouldn't say "RT only or bust" though, the developer just has to be aware of the extra time it require to support both. Also I don't think modern engines have issues supporting both, especially in the Digital Foundry video I posted, they used the same tool to make a rasterized version and ray traced version of the same scene.


Path-tracing through multiple reflections is a multiple step process by necessity and definition, it isn't intrinsically simpler.
"Pass" is not the same as "step." The simplest definition I could find is that a "pass" or "render pass" is a render of the scene at some view point. If you want to render an image using rasterization with realistically cast shadows, you have to have at least two renders: one from the camera and one from the light's point of view.

Ray tracing doesn't need to do this. It can get everything it needs from one view point.
 
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I suspect I'm in the minority, but I just won't buy a GPU that has high power consumption numbers. I'm very sensitive to noise and my computer room gets direct sunlight in the afternoon and evening, so I need to keep temperatures down as well as noise. Hopefully the rumors that AMD's upcoming GPUs will be efficient are true, because there's no way I'm buying anything like a 300+W GPU.
Worst case, I'll just undervolt, turn on frame-rate limits, or find some other way to run a power hungry GPU a little more efficiently.
This is all pretty trivial to manage with Afterburner, if you don't want to pay a lot in power for those last few FPS. I usually use it to set a temperature target that gives me acceptable frame rates since fan noise ramping up and down bugs the hell out of me, and a variable refresh display is nice to absorb the resulting frame rate fluctuations.
 
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My best friend waited for 1.5 years. Again, the US is not everywhere. And yes, he has an active PSN account, he is the one who alerts me to giveaways and he just recently played Horizon Forbidden West on it. None of this changes that 500 bucks is too much for a one trick pony in my eyes, though. Especially when my computer can do so much more. The only reason I would get one is titles like Forbidden West and FFXVI, and two games is an awful reason to dish out that much money especially since both will release for PC anyways. It's just frustrating that you need to wait and frankly shows how fragile the console business actually is.
If it's strictly for gaming show me PC equivalent for $400.
 
If it's strictly for gaming show me PC equivalent for $400.
To add to this, since people like to adjust the goal posts:
  • Must include everything in the configuration you're comparing to
    • If you're comparing against a SKU with an optical drive, you must include an optical drive.
    • Exceptions can be made for specs that are not possible to obtain (e.g., using GDDR6 RAM for system memory)
  • The computer must be made with new parts
  • No gray market purchases for software
  • Must include a keyboard and mouse at the minimum
 
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"Pass" is not the same as "step."
The number of passes or steps isn't of any particular importance, the huge computational requirements for path/ray-tracing is.

For the puritanist ray/path-traced approach, you need to trace enough rays from each pixel to consistently hit everything that may contribute light or you get noisy output. And how do you determine what those N-ary traces are hitting, what color will be coming from those things, the intensity, etc.? You basically have to go through the entire raster process on a per-ray basis: scan the scene geometry to find what intersects first, apply textures and shaders to determine the surface's properties, then cast some more rays from there to finalize the lighting.

Having to do the whole raster-like process on a per-pixel basis with enough rays to avoid needing aggressive de-noising gets real expensive real fast.
 
To add to this, since people like to adjust the goal posts:
  • Must include everything in the configuration you're comparing to
    • If you're comparing against a SKU with an optical drive, you must include an optical drive.
    • Exceptions can be made for specs that are not possible to obtain (e.g., using GDDR6 RAM for system memory)
  • The computer must be made with new parts
  • No gray market purchases for software
  • Must include a keyboard and mouse at the minimum
Why? That's one of the nice things about PCs, I don't have to build a brand new machine every time I want to upgrade something. I've been using the same optical drive since like... 2007
 
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If it's strictly for gaming show me PC equivalent for $400.
You can simply upgrade a several year old system most of the time if it is just for gaming, so it's not exactly hard to stay below that threshold. For example, if I upgraded my old Kaby Lake-based system with a new mobo and CPU, let's say a 5600X and B550 board, I could squeeze quite a few more years out of my old computer with its GTX 1070 for less than what a console would cost me. That is one of the big advantages of PCs over consoles. You can upgrade whatever needs upgrading and don't have to buy everything brand new. And again, you can do so much more with a PC over a console, and please don't pretend nobody ever browses the web, writes a .doc file or watches YouTube videos on their gaming PCs because we both know that's unrealistic...

Edit:
But if you want to, PCPartspicker actually has an entry-level gaming PC for around that price...
https://pcpartpicker.com/guide/rFLrxr/entry-level-amd-gaming-build
 
Why? That's one of the nice things about PCs, I don't have to build a brand new machine every time I want to upgrade something. I've been using the same optical drive since like... 2007
The argument tends to be "I can build a PC that performs as good/better than a console for the same cost as the console." The requirement for an optical drive is because a lot of times I see a "console killer", they leave it out. Also, you don't have a Blu-Ray drive. And sure, while you can upgrade your PC piecemeal if you want, the whole point of restricting the buying options it removes variables. Otherwise I could go "Well my friend is selling me their PS5 for $200" or "I bought a 'broken' console for cheap and fixed it."

You can simply upgrade a several year old system most of the time if it is just for gaming, so it's not exactly hard to stay below that threshold. For example, if I upgraded my old Kaby Lake-based system with a new mobo and CPU, let's say a 5600X and B550 board, I could squeeze quite a few more years out of my old computer with its GTX 1070 for less than what a console would cost me. That is one of the big advantages of PCs over consoles. You can upgrade whatever needs upgrading and don't have to buy everything brand new.
The problem I have with this argument is timing. If I were to have bought a PS4 near its launch window, then bought a PS5, I only spent $900. If I bought a brand new computer back then (let's say 2014) and decided back in 2020 to get a new computer, I'd probably would upgrade everything except the storage drives because none of the new hardware would've supported DDR3 and the video card, even if I went balls out with a GTX Titan (which already puts me further in the hole than the two consoles), is pretty outdated by this point.

This is why I find the argument of which gives you a better value entirely pointless. Which one gives you a "better value" is a giant crap shoot and everyone just tailors the parameters of the argument so their side looks better (and yes, I realize I'm doing the same thing).
 
You can simply upgrade a several year old system most of the time if it is just for gaming, so it's not exactly hard to stay below that threshold. For example, if I upgraded my old Kaby Lake-based system with a new mobo and CPU, let's say a 5600X and B550 board, I could squeeze quite a few more years out of my old computer with its GTX 1070 for less than what a console would cost me. That is one of the big advantages of PCs over consoles. You can upgrade whatever needs upgrading and don't have to buy everything brand new. And again, you can do so much more with a PC over a console, and please don't pretend nobody ever browses the web, writes a .doc file or watches YouTube videos on their gaming PCs because we both know that's unrealistic...

Edit:
But if you want to, PCPartspicker actually has an entry-level gaming PC for around that price...
https://pcpartpicker.com/guide/rFLrxr/entry-level-amd-gaming-build
Those old parts you're upgrading from cost money at one time. So you can't not add them to the total cost. BTW: That 1070 isnt going to compete with a PS5 in graphical processing power. So again, for strictly gaming value the console wins.

I'm not doubting the usefulness of a PC, I never did.

And FYI, that PC you linked wouldn't hold a candle to a PS5 in graphics processing power.