Oh boy, what am I getting myself into?
Alright, I guess it would have been wise to disclaim that I have no interest in this polarized high school parody of a political debate between red and green. But that aside, are you seriously suggesting that the links you provided point towards irrefutable evidence of shady pay offs? I'm honestly confused here. I'm sure I deserve the sarcastic attitude by someone's standard, but please, elaborate! Are they wrong to say that the massive exageration is unjustified? And I'd love to know what's going on with these crude photoshops of ceos on review sites that's worth losing all credibility for! Is that how low discussions on this subject have fallen?
TheGreatGrapeApe :
Sure but they also caught flak for it as well, or did you miss the HD2900/R600 series like I mentioned. Heck they caught as much flak for the X800 series being hot initially too with the X800PE being very hot, however when the GF6800UE never made it to public due to those same heat issue, that noise suddenly died down too.
So how is this different?
Fair enough. That's all good to be unbiased in who we shake our fists in anger at, but what's the aim of our outrage in the first place?
Do you really think that it's the thousands of negative comments on bulletin boards that pressured engineers to solve all the technical shortcomings of these respective designs? Apparently that's one thing that hasn't become any different in all this time and that's really contributing to the problem.
TheGreatGrapeApe :
And if you do you get criticized for it, and rightly so. And when you do it right (like the R9700, GF8800, etc) then you deserve praise. I don't understand your issues other than having some kind of feelings for a corporation, which really doesn't care about you or the user (none do).
Wait a second here. Why is that rightly so? Can't you see that investing in a new architecture, with a new potential ceiling, new feature set and new horizon of possibilities is good for all of us? I don't think there's anything in it for nvidia to release lesser products in a competitive market especially at a time like this and therefore it shouldn't be farfetched to say the shortcomings weren't intentional; so what's so important about chewing out at a team of engineers who failed at impressing an audience oblivious of the efforts they put in on every aspect, even though they tried their best within their limits? Would you rather they had simply made the gtx400 a declination of their older design just smaller, faster and with stamp on additions of the bare-minimum of new features to earn the dx11 sticker so years after years, we're looking at the same things repackaged?
TheGreatGrapeApe :
WTF are you on about? nVidia is not alone in that respect, and what they did they didn't do for the good of all mankind, but for their own profit. What of the negatives they have done (as have others)? They should get equally good/bad treatment as anyone else, just like AMD's sucky CPUs when they're crap, and intel's when they're crap, perfect example similar to this would be if everyone hushed up about the very warm prescotts. Should that have been hidden for all the 'good that intel has done... etc.?'
This is getting less and less civil. Don't get my tone wrong here, I'm in no way trying to be confrontational.
To answer your question, I'm on about the fact people seem to think nvidia's failure stems from laziness or "negatives", whatever that's referring to. It's as if they're guilty of something horrible when all they've been trying to do will benefit you, the end user in the long term.
And why does it matter that they're in it for profit? Everyone's in it for the profits; the morally-bankrupt corporations you and I and everyone pay month for internet or electricity are in it for the profits. It's like we keep on arguing on how to judge these faceless companies for the product they produce as if they owe it us all to put out something breath-taking so much it's their fault we are disappointed when we set too high expectations for ourselves. Of course, I think we should have the right to hold an opinion on whatever flavor of the month poster boy easy target but look at the stuff not just nvidia but all those other companies have done before, hardware t&l, multiple pass bump-mapping, parallel shader architecture, n-patch tesselation all of these techs sputtered when they first came to market, due to being closed source and hardware-exclusive or being called pointless cosmetic fluff attempting to lock you in a brand. Look at where these things are now, it's all evolved and become ubiquitous in almost every gpu on the market!
Do you think the people back in the days giving nvidia *** for promoting pixel shaders instead of coming up with a solution for the memory bandwidth bottleneck made them work any faster on the crossbar controller architecture?
No, I think if any nvidia engineer were to read some of the comments made at them today and realize how much more vulgar it's becoming, they'd be so pissed off they'd delay the release of an innovating technology and file it as a submarine patent just to give into the general cacophony of name calling and pejorative attitudes just to spite us. (yes this is a joke, put the safety back on)
TheGreatGrapeApe :
No, we're here to keep the discussion in bounds; and framing your statement like that is the opposite of trying to foster discussion.
I disagree. My statement was made as candidly as possible and within the context of an outsider's perspective, this place is filled with childish bickering and arguments aimed at some sempiternal illusion that someone can "win" and argument if they just have the last word or if they obtain more corroboration from equally unqualified authority. I fail to see how a call for a little more moderation to tone it down a tad is the "opposite of trying to foster discussion", nor do I see how repeatedly ignoring calls for these flame wars to go outside is keeping "the discussion in bounds". Furthermore, judging by how much efforts you took in responding to me rather than cleaning up the place, I detect that you might be more interested in discrediting my presence here due to my pointing this out and for a moderator, I think you're teetering on the wrong side of a very thin line by taking it negatively and responding this way.
TheGreatGrapeApe :
It's not, and your posts in this thread would've lead others to believe it is right now. You can explain it however else you want, it doesn't change that, and the fact that support is a future prospect. Similar to the AE comments and then the excuse of it not being needed if it's not already in the cards or else coming too.
Look, I really didn't want to argue but now you sound like you're trying to keep scores on what I'm getting right and wrong because I'm somehow being adversarial for being excited about a brand that's taboo to support at this time. Sure, I got that one wrong; you may quote me on that. But what the hell have I done to deserve being addressed in this sort of judgmental tone? Was I out to dupe poor innocent graphic designers and effects artists to shell out for an nvidia card only to be disappointed that only one of the two programs doesn't support mercury? and as opposed to what? an ati board which supports neither?
Is my previous statement about after-effect completely disjunct that stance? It was an honest mistake; I remembered reading rumors that adobe was working on a cuda enabled video engine and I assumed that they'd apply it to both their video oriented products; what's the date tag on that post disproving that you found? I might not even have had the time to catch up with the explosion of new information that occurred around midnight yesterday.
TheGreatGrapeApe :
I didn't compare them, nor compare the base OGL acceleration to the dedicated plug-ins either; however I also don't falsely attribute them to one camp or the other to give them a boost for all that they've done for mankind.
And I don't think you're in a position to say what other people know and don't know especially in reply to a post showing your statement to be erroneous. Seriously dude. [:thegreatgrapeape:5]
Now start giving Matrox and 3Dlabs some love for all they have done for the Graphics world !! [:jaydeejohn:5]
That's good but right back at you there, you would have lead others to think it were a fair comparison by bringing it up as an argument where it was irrelevant. Opengl acceleration so far has been mostly for cosmetic and interface responsiveness enhancements while the cuda implementations are rumored to increase performance by more than a full order of magnitude. Allowe me to remain unimpressed that opengl enhancements were even mentioned.
I'm pretty sure I'm not pretending to have an accurate map of what others know, nor have I shown the pretense of knowingly offering erroneous statements for the sole reason of shabbily defend some sort of black or white stance but I'm also allowed to use such a low level of cynicism every now and then without being accused of being a witch and confronted with a piece of google/wikipedia phd refutal. Also, I don't have brand loyalty per se, I simply happen to favor whoever supports innovation and all attempts to further branch off today's boring status quo and meander somewhere that'll end up much more interesting. In that way, I do give matrox much credit for pioneering in making cards with multiple ramdacs for better multi-screen support way ahead of the game and 3Dlabs for their hardware frustrum culling engine, oh and don't forget S3 for bringing hardware texture compression, and every company whose engineers have made what computers are today. Yes, seriously dude; you may mock me for that too I guess.
When I replied to you, I honestly didn't mean to start a conversation like this. I was hoping for something more candid, I guess. I've only moderated one very early board in my days and the unwritten rule to me is that people do see in your tag of authority a beacon to indicate the general tone and spirit in which you shepherd your community with. In short, you should be setting an example of civility and order. Being amicable, or neutrally-stanced is generally not a requirement but it tends to attract like-minded and objective people. Here, several people have expressed discontent at the pace, meaningless content and general amount of belligerence in posts looking at the board through ati-colored glasses in this one thread alone yet, not a word was said about it. I don't mean to question the way you do your job here but why are you ignoring them? Then again, I'd be delusional to think I could change anyone's mind here so I guess I'll just drop it...
Responding to posts like this in the same fashion is actually really easy but in the end it fails to make things better due to being an irresistible taunt for the opposite party to respond with even more grandeur under the illusion of merit that is a handful of locals nodding in approval. So, sorry about making it worse for what it's worth. I can take a hint so I'll just go lurk elsewhere.
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