Gun Owners, Why Do You Own Guns?

[4Ryan6]

My reasons for gun ownership are totally home defense, I live out in the country in a high crime area, most of the crimes are drug related ending in killing the victims, in some worst cases over less than 20 dollars.

What has this world come to, when someone would be killed for less than 20 dollars!

That's a Travesty!

Worse was that couple were older and really couldn't defend themselves, why kill them?

If the robbers had wore a mask why would they need to be killed, just pure evil mean behind those actions!

To make things worse we have 2 gangs in the closest county and 3 gangs in the neighboring county, some of the gang members commit crimes as part of their gang initiations.

So to me owning guns for home defense is a No Brainer!

That's why I have them and why they were purchased, what about you?

 

[riser]

Yeah.. but at $4 a sabot, I only did it once. I have it recorded too.. I had a camera down range filming the entire shot and penetration through the plate. Kind of cool except it was on film, not digital.

 

[chunkymonster]

I keep a handgun in one area without one chambered. I have a shotgun in my safe loaded but without one in the chamber. The handgun is present to get my to the shotgun depending on my location.

Actually, most trainers I talk with use the handgun as a deterrent to get to their real protection firearm.

I approach it the same way. Once while camping, a friend asked me if I brought a pistol. I asked why and they said for protection. I told them that if I wanted to scare something away, I would have brought a pistol, but if I wanted to protect myself, I would have brought my rifle.

 

[riser]

Most whackjobs suffer from paranoia in some way, shape or form ... which then ternds to manifest with an obsession for personal safety which progresses to gun obsession ... more extreme behaviour ... like above.

Within a couple more pages you guys will have progressed to posting photos about your kills.

We are already well past responsible behaviour with firearms ... now your talking about makign them super ready to fire ... I wonder what the stats are now on innocent kids who are injured or killed using some fools firearm which is kept "at the ready".

Its time to close this one ... the message is distorted enough.

Rey, you're a bit out of line. Please adjust your attitude or refrain from continuing to post in this thread.

 

[riser]

I keep a handgun in one area without one chambered. I have a shotgun in my safe loaded but without one in the chamber. The handgun is present to get my to the shotgun depending on my location.

Actually, most trainers I talk with use the handgun as a deterrent to get to their real protection firearm.

I approach it the same way. Once while camping, a friend asked me if I brought a pistol. I asked why and they said for protection. I told them that if I wanted to scare something away, I would have brought a pistol, but if I wanted to protect myself, I would have brought my rifle.

I've heard that under pressure your grouping is 8 times worse than under no pressure. This explains why police, standing 25 feet from a suspect, unload 50 rounds and can't hit them.

Like the gunmen out in.. LA was it? With the AKs and stuff. The police weren't far away.. and the hundreds of rounds they fired off, only a couple actually hit them.

Police in NYC have a 12lbs trigger pull to make sure when they pull the trigger they mean to do it.. but they also can't hit crap so they unload everything when they fire.. which was also demonstrated when they shot the groom coming out of the church a couple years back.

 

[chunkymonster]

Most whackjobs suffer from paranoia in some way, shape or form ... which then ternds to manifest with an obsession for personal safety which progresses to gun obsession ... more extreme behaviour ... like above.

Within a couple more pages you guys will have progressed to posting photos about your kills.

We are already well past responsible behaviour with firearms ... now your talking about makign them super ready to fire ... I wonder what the stats are now on innocent kids who are injured or killed using some fools firearm which is kept "at the ready".

Its time to close this one ... the message is distorted enough.

Wow!

By all means look at the statistics! But, let me save you the effort. As far as the stats are concerned, fatal firearms accidents are approximately 0.5% of the total fatal accidents per year, that equates to about 650 fatal firearms accidents out of 123,800. Out of the 650 only 65 of them involved children 14 and under. The fact is more children are killed each year by motor vehicle accidents, falling, poisoning, drowning, and child abuse than by firearms. So please, don't go calling people "whackjobs" because you don't agree with how they keep their firearms in the ready.

 

[riser]

#1 deadly weapon in the US is the baseball bat. A hammer is #2 or #3.

Somehow, the mighty crowbar which is popular in zombie killing doesn't make the list.

 

[Saga Lout]

Ry started this thread to ask why people own their guns not to have an argument on how to store/use/fire or totally despise them. Degenerating this thread into an argument only gives succour to the anti-brigade. I don't want to end up refereeing a duel but if I do, I'll make sure both guns are loaded.

 

[chunkymonster]

I keep a handgun in one area without one chambered. I have a shotgun in my safe loaded but without one in the chamber. The handgun is present to get my to the shotgun depending on my location.

Actually, most trainers I talk with use the handgun as a deterrent to get to their real protection firearm.

I approach it the same way. Once while camping, a friend asked me if I brought a pistol. I asked why and they said for protection. I told them that if I wanted to scare something away, I would have brought a pistol, but if I wanted to protect myself, I would have brought my rifle.

I've heard that under pressure your grouping is 8 times worse than under no pressure. This explains why police, standing 25 feet from a suspect, unload 50 rounds and can't hit them.

Like the gunmen out in.. LA was it? With the AKs and stuff. The police weren't far away.. and the hundreds of rounds they fired off, only a couple actually hit them.

Police in NYC have a 12lbs trigger pull to make sure when they pull the trigger they mean to do it.. but they also can't hit crap so they unload everything when they fire.. which was also demonstrated when they shot the groom coming out of the church a couple years back.

Like with anything else, it comes down to training and mental discipline. IMO, cops do not train nearly enough to become truly efficient in handling their weapons during high pressure situations. Heck, my local Township police only shoot once a year, and some of them only do that because they have to!

A 12lb trigger pull is just ridiculous! Especially for a semi auto doesn't matter if it DAO. Geez, my S&W revolvers have less than 12lb on double action.

 

[riser]

Ry started this thread to ask why people own their guns not to have an argument on how to store/use/fire or totally despise them. Degenerating this thread into an argument only gives succour to the anti-brigade. I don't want to end up refereeing a duel but if I do, I'll make sure both guns are loaded.

Hey, you're a fan of the New York reload. haha Nice

 

[arthurh]

Ry started this thread to ask why people own their guns not to have an argument on how to store/use/fire or totally despise them. Degenerating this thread into an argument only gives succour to the anti-brigade. I don't want to end up refereeing a duel but if I do, I'll make sure both guns are loaded.

Point well taken. This started out as a legitimate question to "gun owners". Hope it stays on track now.

 

[4Ryan6]

Ry started this thread to ask why people own their guns not to have an argument on how to store/use/fire or totally despise them. Degenerating this thread into an argument only gives succour to the anti-brigade. I don't want to end up refereeing a duel but if I do, I'll make sure both guns are loaded.

Thank You Sir!

This thread was not put here to become a problem, it was posted out of curiosity and concern as to why others own guns in the first place, and to have a descent conversation regarding each others opinions.

I've lost count as to the times it has been closed and reopened, and it has now become an open display of shortcomings in the moderation team of behavior of what should and should not be allowed by moderators to be openly viewed by regular forum members.

I personally think it has been treated with prejudice!

 

[jpishgar]

I have been summoned to this thread. I have several rulings after reviewing it in depth.

Firstly, and most importantly, moderators are never, ever to delete or remove each other's messages and responses within a thread without discussion of the issue. Any moderators moderating another moderator will experience some "Community Management" from yours truly. If you are a mod, and have a bone of contention with another mod, you may address the concern to that moderator directly in private areas, or with me.

The thread seemed to degenerate after the fourth page. Up to that point, it was on task, on topic. I'd like to see it return to that point, or it will be closed.

I've discussed this before with some of the participants of this thread: do not link to "news" sites like Brietbart.com. These are not credible sources and have been debunked for misconstruing and outright inventing news to fit the invective. My preference is to keep this community unrelated in search rankings to stories like "Obama is a gay communist Muslim atheist from Kenya" and other ironically unaware satire.

As for some of the assertions here, I'm hesitant to wade in, but no one has disputed some of the items.

As far as the stats are concerned, fatal firearms accidents are approximately 0.5% of the total fatal accidents per year, that equates to about 650 fatal firearms accidents out of 123,800. Out of the 650 only 65 of them involved children 14 and under. The fact is more children are killed each year by motor vehicle accidents, falling, poisoning, drowning, and child abuse than by firearms. So please, don't go calling people "whackjobs" because you don't agree with how they keep their firearms in the ready.

This is incorrect. In 2010, 15,576 children and teenagers were injured by firearms in the United States, which clocks in at twice as many children killed by guns than by cancer, according to the New England Journal of Medicine and the American Academy of Pediatrics report from April 11th, 2013. The University of Pennsylvania has performed studies on the firearm injury rate per annum in the U.S., and this report coincides with their numbers (clocking in at 78,622 nonfatal firearm injuries per year). The statistic you quote were given by JustFacts own James D. Agresti, whose immensely biased methods exclude study analysis and lead to assumptions of causation. IE- "it's raining out and I'm eating macaroni and cheese, therefore every time I eat macaroni and cheese, it will rain."

#1 deadly weapon in the US is the baseball bat. A hammer is #2 or #3. Somehow, the mighty crowbar which is popular in zombie killing doesn't make the list.

This is incorrect. This assumption originated from a meme that traveled the conservative viral channel and was not sourced. It is particularly insidious for how easily disproved it happens to be. The assertion is simply wrong. FBI Uniform Crime Reports. The original author of the meme intended (or didn't) to say that blunt objects were more deadly than specifically one type of gun. Moreover, this excludes non-homicide deaths resultant from firearms in the U.S., which bring the tally to 31,593 annually.

Happy to allow this thread to continue, but please source your items going forward. The conversation is worth credibility and legitimate debate. I expect the discourse to rise to meet those standards.

-JP

 

[riser]

Ah, we can argue the numbers all day, compare injuries to death, etc. and manipulate data to show whatever we want.

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/unintentional_2007_bw-a.pdf

We can argue a kid is just as likley to die from suffocation as being killed by a firearm. We could also compare that gun suicides are also highly ranked with homicides for the same age group.

Proper gun training is required to go hunting; having a child requires no training or license.

 

[4Ryan6]

A childs protection should be of the highest importance to adults that have guns in their homes, especially when the children are left alone for long periods of time, because children will get into things they shouldn't, it's just in their nature to do so.

Out of curiosity they plunder and rummage through closets and drawers to discover everything in their environment, even when a parent is sure they have something thoroughly hidden 9 times out of 10, they don't.

Even a gun safe is not safe if the child knows how to get into it, like if it takes a key or combination and the child knows where it is.

When it comes to a gun and children part A, the gun, can never ever be allowed to come together with part B, the ammunition, because they will play with it and explore it, the same as you may have as a child yourself.

It's a sad thing to learn a child has been killed by a parents negligence, but it's even worse to find a child is killed by another parents negligence, meaning part A was at one friends home and part B at another friends home and they on their own brought the two together, or someone else brings a gun into your home without your knowledge.

That happened a a friends home when I was a teenager, there were about five of us there, one was playing with a shotgun that was supposed to be unloaded one of my friends was in the bedroom at the end of the hall standing in front of a tall mirror, the one holding the gun acted like he was going to shoot at the one in the bedroom, and he jumped out of the way, the trigger was pulled and the gun went off and blew out the mirror at the end of the hall at about head level, glass sprayed all over the bedroom.

Pure shock and awe coursed through all of us when we realized what had happened, and what could have happened!

So when should a child be taught that a gun is not a toy that should ever be played with, we were lucky as children that we made it to be men, because the majority of us lived through the time that sex wasn't talked about, drugs wasn't talked about, drinking wasn't talked about, we had to find out the hard way how devastating these things could be.

Here's an actual fact for you, I've had 2 of my friends that died from aides, 4 friends dead from drugs, and 1 dead from drinking and driving, none killed from guns, but 2 of us survivors of gun accidents.

So owning guns is a much higher responsibility than some seem to come across, especially if children are in the home.

 

[riser]

By the time I was 22 I had over 25 friends that I grew up with dead. Car accidents, suicide, cancer, leukemia, accidents, and murder.

Of the one that was murdered by gun, he was dealing drugs and survived being shot multiple times in a bad deal. A couple years later, he wasn't as lucky and was fatally shot in the head.

Last year, my wife's friend's daughter drowned in the pool. The mother went to the store the sister (aunt) was supposed to watch him. She laid down, the child went out to the pool, fell in and drown.
My non-bloodline distant cousin killed their baby a couple years ago. You likely even read or watched the news about it:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/04/24/freezer-baby-murder-charges.html

Accidents happen. A fence could have been put around the pool; the child could have been put up for adoption; the safe could have been locked.

Either way it is a tragic. Now, down here in Tennessee which just ranked as the number one Meth producer and I think 1st or 2nd with pill abuse.. It is a common occurrence down here that they get high and walk into people's homes looking for stuff to steal or attacking people. Again, my wife years ago while at a friend's house overnight had a guy walk into their house. If her friend's father wasn't there, who knows what would have happened?

Outside of children's deaths, a firearm is the best way to equalize physical disparities. I am not afraid of a 5'5" female holding a blunt object or a knife. Sure, I might get cut but I'm pretty sure I will come out ahead. If she was holding a gun, that's another story.

The concern is what happens if 2-3 people are trying to break into your house or cause you harm? There is only one thing that equalizes it. A lot of home invasions are more than a single person.

I do know that the police response time here is fairly slow as they're younger, understaffed and the police are paid around $26k a year. Mention that they may have to go risk their lives or deal with violence and they're not quick to show up. In fact, they don't even give speeding tickets down here because that is very dangerous as well.

Overall though, having a child is a higher responsibility. There are so many things that can happen to them. Locking themselves outside during the winter, etc. It is tragic if it is a gun because that is very preventable. But any child death is likely preventable, it falls on the parents and adults to take responsibility.

 

[4Ryan6]

Very good response Riser!

The concern is what happens if 2-3 people are trying to break into your house or cause you harm? There is only one thing that equalizes it. A lot of home invasions are more than a single person.

With the gang activity in our area most every home invasion is multiple intruders, however a lot of what actually happens is not reported to the media simply not to give away information only the criminals would know regarding the crime scene.

A detective told me that they really do not want the local public to discover just how bad things really are, this was the same detective that advised me to get a gun for home defense as their response time to my residence was a minimum of 30 minutes, regarding police or ambulance.

Most gang related crimes are totally after money or pawn able property to acquire drugs, or some sick gang membership initiation.

Under an attack such as that your survival time is seriously diminished, that's one reason we additionally have 360 degree video surveillance around our home, running infrared night vision cameras, covers a pitch black night as well as the daytime, the cameras are black & white at night and color in the day, and they all have motion sensors as well.

Even that is no guarantee but at least is a first alert to trouble.

 

[Saga Lout]

In England, police response time is variable but can be very slow. You telephone and report a break in and the response is usually an offer of a Crime Number so you can claim on Insurance. In other words, they aren't even bothering to come out.

A couple of years back a man called them to report a burglary in progress. They said it would be half an hour. he hung up and called back two minutes later saying "don't worry boys - I've shot the ah heck now" and within six minutes there was a helo overhead and five cars outside his house.

That's the way to get them out quickly round these parts but it probably wouldn't work in the US.

 

[4Ryan6]

A couple of years back a man called them to report a burglary in progress. They said it would be half an hour. he hung up and called back two minutes later saying "don't worry boys - I've shot the ah heck now" and within six minutes there was a helo overhead and five cars outside his house.

That's the way to get them out quickly round these parts but it probably wouldn't work in the US.

:lol: I'll have to keep that possibility in mind! :lol:

 

[riser]

Thomas Sowell has written several published articles on gun control and it's effects.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/18/great-gun-control-fallacy-thomas-sowell

The one metric that is very hard to add is in moral decline. Moral decline, increase in graphic violence exposure, giving the OK to be more vulgar and green lighting violence is something that is hard to measure when cross referencing gun control.

I believe it was in WWII where 1 out of 5 soldiers would actually fire their gun at an enemy. Today, 5/5 will fire at an enemy. Training has been changed from shooting targets to shooting silhouettes, mentality has been gradually changed, and of course moral and religious decline. All those factors in.

As my dad taught me when I was little: Throw the first punch in a fight. You know how far you are willing to go. You do not know how far they are willing to go. -- Meaning, if you get hit and knocked out, or seriously injured, is the person going to quit and walk away, or jump on you and beat you further? Instead, throw the first punch in order to end it quicker or gain the advantage because I know how far I am willing to go. I trust myself more than the other person.. especially if the other person is holding a weapon.

 

[4Ryan6]

As my dad taught me when I was little: Throw the first punch in a fight. You know how far you are willing to go. You do not know how far they are willing to go. -- Meaning, if you get hit and knocked out, or seriously injured, is the person going to quit and walk away, or jump on you and beat you further? Instead, throw the first punch in order to end it quicker or gain the advantage because I know how far I am willing to go. I trust myself more than the other person..

My dads attitude was you get in a fight at school no matter the outcome when you get home you get a beating.

I spent my earlier school days running to avoid a fight, not that I was afraid of my fellow classmates but was afraid of my fathers wrath.

I was labeled as the school coward and that got the attention of the school bullies they saw me as a quick way to bolster their reputations, so I became the school bully most high valued target.

I went to the bathroom to relieve myself and walked into bully hell, three were in the bathroom two behind the door which slammed behind me, and the worst of them came out of a toilet stall.

Fight or flight and flight was not an option, if you want to know how afraid I was of my father, all that was going through my mind was do this with no visible marks to take home.

I had mr king bullies head down in the toilet beating the pure fire out of him, and his buddies lost their toughness cool and were crying for me to let the guy alone, so I did.

Went to the mirror to see if I had any marks to show for the fighting and was pleased to see there were none, turned around and was punched in the eye by the guy I had down in the toilet and he ran out of the bathroom.

Looked in the mirror to see the prettiest shiner you could want and sheer dread filled my body as I knew what was coming when I got home.

Ended up at the principals office and was sent home for fighting.

I was pure sick when I got home anticipating what was coming but amazingly my dad said well I guess you've been through enough and there were no consequences from him.

After that no one trapped me in the bathroom again!

 

[riser]

Raising a kid is tough. You don't want them to fear you like you with your father and then you don't want them to be afraid to stand up for what is right.

It would make sense to me that you did well in the military. My military friends (I didn't enlist; family didn't want me to) said the best soldiers are the ones they can easily break down and build up properly. The ones who think they're built up tend to be worse because they can't be properly trained. As I mentioned earlier in another post (I think) a friend of mine who was always bullied, scrawny, etc, turned out to be a Marine kicking down doors in Fallujah. I would have never expected that of him.

 

[4Ryan6]

Collectors is another very good point!

We have a friend in possession of a civil war musket she wants to sell but she has no idea of it's value and she would definitely need a collectors advice, personally I'd keep the thing if it was mine, and I have zero skill to advise her what to do with a musket that old.

 

[riser]

I used to have a WWII Japanese sniper rifle and officer's Katana. The sniper rifle wasn't worth that much, a few hundred dollars since they were massively produced, but the Officer's Katana was worth well over $10,000 a few years back. It was in great shape and had some features on it designed for combat, not just ornamental designs. Also had my grandfather's side arm but that too is gone now.
I wish I had all those since my grandfather had fought for them and brought them back. Not just for the value but because it was a significant piece of history that few people really have today.

 

[4Ryan6]

IMO having a gun on the ready in the home has many affecting factors, are there any children in the home?, Do you live in a high crime area?, What is the actual Police response time to where you live?, etc.

Newer improved guns today are more dependable than guns of yesterday, especially well thought out designs requiring double action to fire the first round, which in most cases when the safety is on, the trigger is disconnected from the firing mechanism, and when the safety is off, a higher trigger pull is required for the first round.

The armed watch on board my ship had a specific procedure they were required to go through for the changing of the watch, it was always done at one of the watch stations where they periodically had to key in their arrival at the station as the watch was a roving patrol, and the changing of the watch was done at one of those stations.

The main reason for this mandatory procedure was the historical loss of life and injuries related to accidents that happened during the watch change, as the weapon changing hands was the 45acp military 1911, that pistol was notorious for sear failure and was extremely difficult to keep in perfect working order in an ocean air environment.

Salt air can and will rust and corrode anything, so maintenance of the watch weapons were done weekly, the other 45s stored in the armory were stored within a special separate locker and that extended their maintenance to a monthly basis.

The watch changing procedure was never just handing the weapon to the next watch stander, there was a rimmed watch changing shelf, the rim was so the gun would not fall to the floor in rough seas, the procedure was to disengage the magazine and lay it on the shelf, then rack back and lock the slide in the rear position and place the empty gun on the shelf with the magazine, at no time were they ever supposed to be carrying a bullet in the chamber.

Those safety protocols were strictly adhered to and not varied from, or it would result in an instant court martial, those safety standards dropped watch changing pistol accidents to almost zero, and that's why they became part of the training to be a qualified watch stander.

The 1911 military model of the pistol was notorious for accidental firings that's why it was refined to adding so many safety features to the gun and IMO is best to be in an unchambered round state even when kept in the ready!

One additional affecting factor is how dependable is the weapon you have in the ready for home defense, being familiar with the weapons good and bad points are critical, there are no perfect guns, each has good and bad points, and some are even notorious for their faults, even though highly sought after.

 

[mrface]

Having multiple 1911 firearms, I have to disagree. I have never had any of them accidentally misfiring. Aditionally, It is the prime standard for how every semi-auto handgun considers its action and is still the standard to this day.

On a side note, to be fair, I have never had any of my guns "accidentally" fire. Nor has my spouse. gun safety is in the 6-8 inches in between your ears... not the mechanisms on any weapon. No-one blames the the table when it comes out wobbly, they normally blame the carpenter.

[/just some stuff to think about]