GURPS deities and heroes

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.

Hoping to find something convertable to GURPS, I looked through a few
of the Troy-inspired d20 suppliments that came out recently, but still
I found no stats. (I am dis-satisfied with the limited coverage of
the d20 "Deities & Demigods" suppliment, and with the heroes'
attribute assignments in the earlier AD&D books.)

Should I start a thread in the SJG forums?

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

That's where I'ld post the it, and here. Get as many opinions as
possible...


> Should I start a thread in the SJG forums?
>
> -- Matt Jozwiak
 
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Korin Duval wrote:
> On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>
> >Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
> >classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
> >having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.
>
> Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
> one thinking so.
> In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
> Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
> It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
> what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
> beaten in their specialty.
>
>
> Korin Duval
>
That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
relevant?
 
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On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

>Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.

Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
one thinking so.
In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
beaten in their specialty.


Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 
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In article <429df817.2037828@powernews.libero.it>,
Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it> wrote:
>On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>
>>Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>>classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>>having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.
>
>Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
>one thinking so.
>In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
>Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
>It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
>what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
>beaten in their specialty.

I'm reminded of the superhero "The Tick". When asked what, exactly, does
it mean to be "nigh invulnerable", the author said he's immune to any sort
of damage unless it's funny.


--
"Out of the way, you slime, a physicist is coming!"
 
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On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
<Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:

[...]
>>
>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
>relevant?

Even if they need to fight them, they'll lose unless they play some
clever tricks: it's always so in mythology.

Even Hercules, to clean the Augias' Stables (gods' "impossible"
trial), couldn't do it with his mighty strenght and endurance alone...
He had to detour an entire river (the clever trick)!

Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
exploit... Et cetera.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <42a021eb.1140937@powernews.libero.it>,
Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it> wrote:
>
>Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
>are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
>catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
>exploit... Et cetera.

There is an interesting occurence in Norse mythology, where one can
see how a mere mortal _might_ have been able to kill a god. At one
point, the god Hod is tricked into killing the god Balder by the
trickster Loki. Now, Loki is a god but it's not inconcievable that
some very capable mortal might have been able to pull off the same
scam as Loki did. But it does emphasize the point that mortals are
unlikely to kill gods by sheer might - social engineering seems a much
better bet 🙂

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs
 
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On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:41:48 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote:

[...]
>There is an interesting occurence in Norse mythology, where one can
>see how a mere mortal _might_ have been able to kill a god. At one
>point, the god Hod is tricked into killing the god Balder by the
>trickster Loki. Now, Loki is a god but it's not inconcievable that
>some very capable mortal might have been able to pull off the same
>scam as Loki did. But it does emphasize the point that mortals are
>unlikely to kill gods by sheer might - social engineering seems a much
>better bet 🙂

Nice example! I bet there are many, many others... Anyone up to it?

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 
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Red Beard Jun 1, 12:03 am show options


>Red Beard wrote
>Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2005 00:03:21 -0400

>Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.

I don't know of any, but 4th ed Fantasy does have a "racial template"
for minor dieties. IDHMBWM or I'd give you the page number.
 
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On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
<Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:

>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
>relevant?

I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
sake isn't enough. It's like whan you ask police about gun laws --
you get an icy stare, as if you're plotting to become a terrorist!

I, for one, do not believe deity stats are pointless. People have
stats, monsters have stats, intangible entities even have stats. What
if someone wants to play out the Titanomacy or some divine scenaio?
Would you actually tell them their desires are incompatible with a
"universal" RPG? This censor-like attitude is infuriating.

Today's science suggests that the monsters of Greek legend were
imagined from the fossils of large animals, such as an elephant's
sinus cavity resembling a cyclops' eye socket. Because of this we
know that at least some of these beings have specific sizes and
shapes, and therefore DO have stats. Why not the gods too?

Certain characters, like those in the Iliad, were practically given
grades when it came to how strong, fast, or skilled they were. I'd
hoped that, by now, some scholarly individual would've taken an
interest in statting them out for a game system or two.

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
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Red Beard wrote:

> I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
> this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
> want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
> sake isn't enough.

You're overreacting. If people had the stats available, you'ld be directed
to where to get them. If they don't have them the question of _why_ you
want them is intended to see if they can help develop the information, or
if they might have something else available that might serve. Information
about why they didn't answer the question is generally intended to give you
information about alternative ways of solving the problem.

Personally, I've developed a number 1,000 point characters, but I've never
fully statted out a god. I feel a relatively weak god might be possible at
2,500 points, but most of the gods people are familiar with will fall into
the 10,000+ point range. Thus, even a weak god in GURPS requires a lot of
effort for little return.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 09:22:40 GMT, korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it (Korin
Duval) wrote:

>Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
>are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
>catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
>exploit... Et cetera.

And that's why I think it's silly to have all gods with an IQ of 40 or
whatever. There's been many times deities have been tricked by
mortals. Either they're not as smart as we think, or they had some
severe familiarity penalties regarding how humans think and act.

So what do you do when a PC wants to compete with a hero or god? It's
quite likely that Herakles could lose a game of intellect to a mortal;
a game of dexterity would be a challenge; strength he would win. Now
what do you do, since such things require stats?

Most people today seem to shape mythology to their beliefs. The
Judeo-Christian image of God being an all-powerful and omniscient
being is simply not the case in all ancient religions. In situations
like that you cannot just tell the challenger "the deity wins".

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:16:33 -0600, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>You're overreacting. If people had the stats available, you'ld be directed

You may be right. But in defense of my position, I'll say that I have
already made a similar inquiry in an AD&D forum, and the result was
the aforementioned "why even bother with stats" brush-off.


>to where to get them. If they don't have them the question of _why_ you
>want them is intended to see if they can help develop the information, or
>if they might have something else available that might serve. Information
>about why they didn't answer the question is generally intended to give you
>information about alternative ways of solving the problem.

My insterest isn't for running a game or even playing deity
characters. I just want an informed write-up based on scholarly
knowledge. There must be gamers out there who've studied the Iliad
and know what sounds right for which NPC. I've only read the book
once, and only in English.

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
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Red Beard wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 14:16:33 -0600, Jefferson
> <Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>>You're overreacting. If people had the stats available, you'ld be directed
>
> You may be right. But in defense of my position, I'll say that I have
> already made a similar inquiry in an AD&D forum, and the result was
> the aforementioned "why even bother with stats" brush-off.

Now _that's_ inexcusable.

Bastion Press: Egyptian Gods, Greek Gods, Norse Gods. (I heard that Norse
Gods was free.)

And I don't even play d20!

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/
 
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On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
<Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>Korin Duval wrote:
>> On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Are there any GURPS resources that provide stats for deities and/or
>> >classical heroes? All I know of is Egypt's vague reference to deities
>> >having stats of 40 or so; I haven't seen Greece yet.
>>
>> Deities are better used as plot devices... I'm sure I'm not the only
>> one thinking so.
>> In this way, you don't even need stats, a part a few such as
>> Appearance and some approximated range of their powers.
>> It is nonsense to know how many dice of damage a bolt from Zeus or
>> what the ST score of Hercules is: you only need to know they can't be
>> beaten in their specialty.

Sorry, Hercules, Hulk is the strongest one there is.

>>
>>
>> Korin Duval
>>
>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>against or with these entities?

They might be. For that matter they might play gods themselves.
That "cosmic" power enhancement is in the rules for a reason, you
know.
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:42:27 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>>against or with these entities?
>
>They might be. For that matter they might play gods themselves.
>That "cosmic" power enhancement is in the rules for a reason, you
>know.

I don't even want to go there, because I know how some gamers react to
the idea of people playing deities. Words like "Monty" and "Munchkin"
come to mind. Just gimme the stats and save the insults. 😉

Some think that "real" characters are those with a page of background
and 50% their point total in disadvantages to add "flavor" and prove
they're expert roleplayers. [Does that sound bitter?]

Just like the people who, when you mention Conan, say that their
tastes require more "sophistocated" literature like Tolkien or Anne
Rice or something. [Yes, definately bitter...]

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:34:05 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
>this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
>want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
>sake isn't enough.

Sometimes, the pursuit of stats is ridiculous.

Thor is destined to die in the jaws of the Migaard Serpent. Nothing
can alter that fate.

The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy. Mere mortals
gazing upon here would probably be driven mad by the sheer force of
her beauty. Likewise, Thor *is* the storm, etc.

Having situations where mere mortals can alter the path of the Gods
through brute force is farcical, in my opinion. If one os going to
frustrate the Gods, one must use cunning.. and have very good bomb
shelter ready for the aftermath!
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:08:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy. Mere mortals
>gazing upon here would probably be driven mad by the sheer force of
>her beauty. Likewise, Thor *is* the storm, etc.

There are many deities in the classical myths/religions that are NOT
just personifications. For example, Pontus was the sea, literally,
whereas Poseidon was just the god in charge of it in later eras.
Therefore not all deities are non-characters as you suggest.

I still haven't heard any suggestions about heroes though. That's the
other half of my inquiry. Out of the thousands of RPG writers in the
English-speaking world, why haven't any covered that topic?

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:08:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:34:05 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
>drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
>drunkenly proclaimed the following
>
>>I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
>>this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
>>want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
>>sake isn't enough.
>
>Sometimes, the pursuit of stats is ridiculous.
>
>Thor is destined to die in the jaws of the Migaard Serpent. Nothing
>can alter that fate.
>
>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy.

But she still got cut at Troy and retreated hastily from the field of
battle.
 
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On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 10:41:48 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote:

>In article <42a021eb.1140937@powernews.libero.it>,
>Korin Duval <korinNOduvalSPAM@yahoo.it> wrote:
>>
>>Nordic and Greek mythologies are the best sources for examples: gods
>>are tricked, not beaten. Riddle contests, diguising, prophecies with a
>>catch (see Shakespeare's MacBeth, while gods aren't involved) to
>>exploit... Et cetera.
>
>There is an interesting occurence in Norse mythology, where one can
>see how a mere mortal _might_ have been able to kill a god. At one
>point, the god Hod is tricked into killing the god Balder by the
>trickster Loki. Now, Loki is a god but it's not inconcievable that
>some very capable mortal might have been able to pull off the same
>scam as Loki did.

Search the entire world and find the single herb that had been
overlooked and turn it into a lethal weapon? A mortal comparably
capable in strength really ought to be able to take on Thor in an
armwrestling competition.
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 18:54:24 -0600, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Bastion Press: Egyptian Gods, Greek Gods, Norse Gods. (I heard that Norse
>Gods was free.)

I shall investigate these sources, though I'm not going to get my
hopes up yet! 😉

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:28:17 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps
beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

>>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy.
>
>But she still got cut at Troy and retreated hastily from the field of
>battle.

Yup. If you want Battle, call Ares or Athena.

If I need to involve deities, I either have avatars, projections of
the deities will onto the mortal plane, or servitors like angels who
do the deity's will in the places he can't go for whatever reason.

In my homebrewed Epic Europe campaign, there are only four "true" gods
(The Building Father [law], The Growing Mother [chaos], The Life
Bringer [good], and Unlife [evil]) Unlife is locked away while the
other three try to figure out how to get rid of him without destroying
the universe. The mortal plane is the battlefield between the gods. To
keep Unlife chained, the other three deities can't interfere too
directly in the mortal plane. Sending magical aid to clerics is one
thing, direct intervention even by agents "opens the door" for
Unlife's demonic hordes to slip through.

Actually meeting the deites would be fatal. Meeting the Building
Father, for example, would lock the character into stone-like
adherence to law. Meeting Unlife results in a few centuries of
torment before he finally destroys you.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
 
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On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 03:22:15 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>If I need to involve deities, I either have avatars, projections of
>the deities will onto the mortal plane, or servitors like angels who
>do the deity's will in the places he can't go for whatever reason.

I know that avatars have become a popular way to include deities in
RPG encounters, but I really feel the concept has been mis-applied.
If I remember correctly, an avatar is a Hindu(?) idea, which, like the
Judeo-Christian notion of omnipotence and omnipresence, has evolved
into the default for RPG deities. I don't think the Greek gods used
avatars, aside from perhaps sending visions.

That probably brings up another problem: Different religions,
pantheons, and creation myths conflicting. Each culture would
probably have a different style of magic (if any), though I still
maintain that most deities could be statted out -- at least in
comparison to eachother if not on a human scale.

-- Matt Jozwiak
 
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On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 03:22:15 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:28:17 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
>Johnston) drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps
>beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following
>
>>>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>>>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>>>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>>>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy.
>>
>>But she still got cut at Troy and retreated hastily from the field of
>>battle.
>
>Yup. If you want Battle, call Ares or Athena.

Ares ALSO got run off the field of battle at Troy. But that's because
it was an Athenian writing the poem.
 
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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 15:43:32 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>So what do you do when a PC wants to compete with a hero or god? It's
>quite likely that Herakles could lose a game of intellect to a mortal;
>a game of dexterity would be a challenge; strength he would win. Now
>what do you do, since such things require stats?

I'd use skill and stat checks. In this case, the first would take a
success against either IQ or a relevant skill, whichever is better; the
second would take a success against DX or a relevant skill, whichever is
worse; the third would take a critical success against ST.

<snip>

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005
 
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