GURPS deities and heroes

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On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:37:09 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:36:06 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I could do that! However, both duelists have to come to my place... 😎
>
>It looks like you're joking... or are you making a legitimate offer?

I was joking. But I made the offer, so I'll stand by it - if both of
you want to come to Ottawa at the same time, I'll GM the battle.

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005

 

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On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 20:35:15 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 18:34:12 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I think that easily-obtainable weapons used at a weapons range intended
>>for said weapons is quite reasonable...
>
>Unless I misunderstood his meaning, the location was at a military
>base on an island far out in the Pacific Ocean... Did you honestly
>believe they'd just open the doors and let us in to fight? No, his
>suggestion seems a wee bit shy of "reasonable" to me.
>
>I, on the other hand, suggested that just about any spot in the
>continental U.S. would be acceptable. Such would be much easier for
>most anyone, assuming it's not some wacky location like a mountaintop
>or the middle of a desert.
>
>Booking passage to Hawaii is basically the easiest way for him to get
>rid of me without endangering himself. All he'd have to do is inform
>the police of this entire thread, and swear out a complaint.
>
>No, his suggestion was definately NOT reasonable, it was a trap.

I think the "clean hands" and "entrapment" doctrines of law would be
enough to prevent that, actually. If the police look at the thread,
they'd see that he's been just as willing to have the battle as you, and
that he's actually encouraged you to show up. You might be
inconvenienced for a couple of days, but I doubt anything would stick
(except for a "conspiracy to duel" charge, if that's illegal in Hawaii).
Mind you, I'm not a lawyer...

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005

 

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In article <2m2ca11tkrfrulhkd7tgfn5k4nfhrgsg8h@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

> See, little one, I'm a combat veteran. I have killed real people, in
> a real war, at everything from knife range to 800 meters. You are a
> poseur wannabe.

This whole paragraph is "poseur wannabe" unless you can back it up.

 

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On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:00:35 -0400, Bonko <Bonko@clowncentral.org>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>In article <2m2ca11tkrfrulhkd7tgfn5k4nfhrgsg8h@4ax.com>,
> Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>> See, little one, I'm a combat veteran. I have killed real people, in
>> a real war, at everything from knife range to 800 meters. You are a
>> poseur wannabe.
>
>This whole paragraph is "poseur wannabe" unless you can back it up.

Would you like a copy of my DD-214? I was an "advisor" in El Salvador
and served as a squad leader in Desert Storm, experience I used in
writing "GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces"
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:19:01 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:00:35 -0400, Bonko <Bonko@clowncentral.org>
>drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
>drunkenly proclaimed the following
>
>>In article <2m2ca11tkrfrulhkd7tgfn5k4nfhrgsg8h@4ax.com>,
>> Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>> See, little one, I'm a combat veteran. I have killed real people, in
>>> a real war, at everything from knife range to 800 meters. You are a
>>> poseur wannabe.
>>
>>This whole paragraph is "poseur wannabe" unless you can back it up.
>
>Would you like a copy of my DD-214? I was an "advisor" in El Salvador
>and served as a squad leader in Desert Storm, experience I used in
>writing "GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces"

And yet you haven't outgrown making death threats against lame
jokesters.

 

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:21:29 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

:On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:19:01 GMT, Douglas Berry
:<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
:
:>On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 22:00:35 -0400, Bonko <Bonko@clowncentral.org>
:>drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
:>drunkenly proclaimed the following
:>
:>>In article <2m2ca11tkrfrulhkd7tgfn5k4nfhrgsg8h@4ax.com>,
:>> Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
:>>
:>>> See, little one, I'm a combat veteran. I have killed real people, in
:>>> a real war, at everything from knife range to 800 meters. You are a
:>>> poseur wannabe.
:>>
:>>This whole paragraph is "poseur wannabe" unless you can back it up.
:>
:>Would you like a copy of my DD-214? I was an "advisor" in El Salvador
:>and served as a squad leader in Desert Storm, experience I used in
:>writing "GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces"
:
:And yet you haven't outgrown making death threats against lame
:jokesters.

Once a homocidal sociopath...

--
"The truths of mathematics describe a bright and clear universe,
exquisite and beautiful in its structure, in comparison with
which the physical world is turbid and confused."

-Eulogy for G.H.Hardy

George W. Harris For actual email address, replace each 'u' with an 'i'

 

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On Tue, 07 Jun 2005 21:56:28 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
wrote:

>I think the "clean hands" and "entrapment" doctrines of law would be
>enough to prevent that, actually. If the police look at the thread,
>they'd see that he's been just as willing to have the battle as you, and
>that he's actually encouraged you to show up. You might be
>inconvenienced for a couple of days, but I doubt anything would stick
>(except for a "conspiracy to duel" charge, if that's illegal in Hawaii).
>Mind you, I'm not a lawyer...

Well, if you really think it's possible to pull it off without police
interference, then things are looking up. I was planning on buying a
boat eventually anyway, so perhaps in a few years I'll be able to meet
even his criteria for the duel.

I still wonder how we're going to get onto the military base, unless
he has a plan for sneaking in. It all still sounds like a trap to me.

I've never dealt with airports before, so I wonder if there's a way to
reserve a ticket and only have to pay for it once he's in flight...?

I just realized that this is probably way off-topic. Oops! 😀

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:21:29 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>And yet you haven't outgrown making death threats against lame
>jokesters.

Hey, who're you calling a jokester?! Er, I mean... nevermind.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 03:21:29 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps
beanbag and drunkenly proclaimed the following

>>Would you like a copy of my DD-214? I was an "advisor" in El Salvador
>>and served as a squad leader in Desert Storm, experience I used in
>>writing "GURPS Traveller: Ground Forces"
>
>And yet you haven't outgrown making death threats against lame
>jokesters.

Excuse me, but "Red Beard" was the one who started making threats and
challenges. I've been making jokes.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 14:07:29 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>I still wonder how we're going to get onto the military base, unless
>he has a plan for sneaking in. It all still sounds like a trap to me.

A good friend of mine is currently the CSM of the 25th Infantry
Division. I'm sure he'd be happy to arraign our use of one of the
areas of East Range.

>I've never dealt with airports before, so I wonder if there's a way to
>reserve a ticket and only have to pay for it once he's in flight...?

You've never flown anywhere? What you do is get me to sign a contract
agreeing to show up in return for my tickets, lodging and meals. If I
fail to meet the requirements of the contract, you sue for breach.


--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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But for something a bit more constructive, I was thinking that it
might be interesting to put together an Olympian package.


Morph 100 points
Terror 30 points
Unkillable 2 100 points
Warp (Blind +50%, Warp Jump +10%) 160 points Some but not all
Olympians have Extra Carrying Capacity.
Jumper 100 (Warp Jump +10%) 110 points
Wild Talent 10 (Focused -20%) 160 points
Doesn't Breathe 20 points
Pressure Support 15 points
Vacuum Support 5 points
Unaging 15 points
Invisibility to Electromagnetic Vision (Switchable +10% Can Carry
Light Encumberance Objects +20%, Affects Machines +50%,
Substantial Only -10%) 68 points
See Invisible 15 points
Magery 3 35 points


Total: 673 points.

I get everything but jumper. Why would an Olympian need to be able to
travel to parelell worlds? In all the versions of Greek mythiology
I've read places like the home of the gods on Olympus and the
Underworld were actual places in the physical world (extremely hard to
reach places admitedly) not alternate realms. What other worlds do you
expect your Olympians to visit?

 

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Red Beard wrote:
> Brushing aside whatever sarcasm was probably bogging down your
> question: Yes, I do feel the need to get a professional consensus on
> what Odin's (and other deities') stats would be.

I think I have to second this POV. I'm not necessarily arguing that you
need complete stats; as someone else pointed out, it may be enough to
know that Zeus throws (arbitrarily-powerful) lightning bolts. You don't
have to come up with rules and point values for his ability. But there
are other areas where it would be important to know: IQ, Perception,
and DX being maybe the most important. In mythic stories, gods are
portrayed as being essentially human-like but with some unusual divine
abilities. I'm okay with leaving "divine" abilities open-ended, but
shouldn't you be able to quantify how quick-witted Odin is? how well
Thor holds his mead? whether Hercules could beat Hera at arm-wrestling?

Max Wilson
Who recommends GURPS GULLIVER for handling god-level strength contests.

 

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Richard Brown wrote:
> >Douglas Berry wrote
> >Thor is destined to die in the jaws of the Migaard Serpent. Nothing
> >can alter that fate.
>
> Yes but that can easily be reflected in game stats. Unkillable 2 or 3
> with a limitation except for how he's desitned to die at ragnarok.

Couldn't that also be expressed as a Destiny? (I'm not sure that the
Norse gods, vs. Greek gods, should have Unkillable.)

> >looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy. Mere mortals
> >gazing upon here would probably be driven mad by the sheer force of
> >her beauty. Likewise, Thor *is* the storm, etc.

Gods as entities vs. gods as personifications of nature aren't actually
incompatible. Fred Saberhagen has an interesting series (Masks of the
Gods?) wherein each god is an immortal part (powers + a "Face") plus a
human wearing that face. The human is killable, and accounts for some
of the mythic variability--e.g. some Lokis might be more benevolent
than others.

An interesting and pretty good series, though I've lost track of the
last two books.

Max Wilson

 

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On 9 Jun 2005 09:55:07 -0700, "Richard Brown" <rbrown@myriad.com>
wrote:

>But for something a bit more constructive, I was thinking that it
>might be interesting to put together an Olympian package.
>
>
>Morph 100 points
>Terror 30 points
>Unkillable 2 100 points
>Warp (Blind +50%, Warp Jump +10%) 160 points Some but not all
>Olympians have Extra Carrying Capacity.
>Jumper 100 (Warp Jump +10%) 110 points
>Wild Talent 10 (Focused -20%) 160 points
>Doesn't Breathe 20 points
>Pressure Support 15 points
>Vacuum Support 5 points
>Unaging 15 points
>Invisibility to Electromagnetic Vision (Switchable +10% Can Carry
>Light Encumberance Objects +20%, Affects Machines +50%,
>Substantial Only -10%) 68 points
>See Invisible 15 points
>Magery 3 35 points
>
>
>Total: 673 points.
>
>I get everything but jumper. Why would an Olympian need to be able to
>travel to parelell worlds? In all the versions of Greek mythiology
>I've read places like the home of the gods on Olympus and the
>Underworld were actual places in the physical world (extremely hard to
>reach places admitedly) not alternate realms. What other worlds do you
>expect your Olympians to visit?

I was in fact thinking of Hades and Olympus as parallel universes and
that probably isn't necessary.

>

 

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Max Wilson wrote:

> In mythic stories, gods are
> portrayed as being essentially human-like but with some unusual divine
> abilities.

_Greek_ myths -- which aren't the only sort. This doesn't apply to
Egyptian or Hindu myths for example.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

 

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Max Wilson wrote:
> Red Beard wrote:
>
>>Brushing aside whatever sarcasm was probably bogging down your
>>question: Yes, I do feel the need to get a professional consensus on
>>what Odin's (and other deities') stats would be.
>
>
> I think I have to second this POV. I'm not necessarily arguing that you
> need complete stats; as someone else pointed out, it may be enough to

What about crossovers? Suppose I am running a Supers campaign where
the characters are 1000 points or more? What if the super-characters
were sent to ancient Greece to meet up with Hercules? How will Megaton
Man stand up to The Son of Zeus?
Marvel has been doing it for years. The Hulk fought Thor to a literal
standstill (Defenders vs. Avengers, c 1975).
Generic Universal.

 

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On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 20:10:37 -0600, Jefferson
<Jeff_Wilson63@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>Max Wilson wrote:
>
>> In mythic stories, gods are
>> portrayed as being essentially human-like but with some unusual divine
>> abilities.
>
>_Greek_ myths -- which aren't the only sort. This doesn't apply to
>Egyptian or Hindu myths for example.
>

In Egyptian myths, Sekhmet was actually sent out to slaughter mankind
because the gods were afraid that humans might grow more powerful than
they were. Ra was described as aging into a senile old fool so Isis
could steal his power. And the Book of the Dead was a crib sheet of
the correct answers to give to the judges of the dead so you could
fool them into letting you pass. Meanwhile in Hindu mythology while
the gods themselves were rather cosmic, they were also fond of
creating avatars that had superhuman powers but were still not totally
beyond our pale.

 

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Max Wilson wrote:
> I'm okay with leaving "divine" abilities open-ended, but
> shouldn't you be able to quantify how quick-witted Odin is? how well
> Thor holds his mead? whether Hercules could beat Hera at arm-wrestling?
>

Well, there is the problem that in RPGs if you give an entity
stats, the PCs will often figure out a way to reduce those
stats to zero and take the entity's stuff. For some play
styles this may work, but in other genres you might want to
say, "No, you can't outdrink Thor. No, I'm not rolling for
it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." just as
there are genres when you might want to say "No, you can't
punch your way through the bank vault door. No, I'm not rolling
for it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." 1) Sometimes
things are impossible--even for Player Characters!

Note that genre assumption mismatches can come into play--if
your players assume that anything, even Zeus, is there so they
can kill it for the experience points, they will be very unhappy
with this. And many games *do* assume that the PCs could kill
Zeus for the xp if they gain enough levels first. (Or even
that a supposedly realistic character could punch through a
bank vault if they rolled a critical hit.)

FOOTNOTE
1) Yes, I know that in some genres, like superheroes, people
routinely punch through bank vault doors. However, in
others you don't even roll. A realistic cop or soldier should
just break his knuckles if he tries it.

 

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<dchilders@cablespeed.com> wrote in message
news:1118441209.851935.239010@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> Max Wilson wrote:
>> I'm okay with leaving "divine" abilities open-ended, but
>> shouldn't you be able to quantify how quick-witted Odin is? how well
>> Thor holds his mead? whether Hercules could beat Hera at arm-wrestling?
>>
>
> Well, there is the problem that in RPGs if you give an entity
> stats, the PCs will often figure out a way to reduce those
> stats to zero and take the entity's stuff. For some play
> styles this may work, but in other genres you might want to
> say, "No, you can't outdrink Thor. No, I'm not rolling for
> it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." just as
> there are genres when you might want to say "No, you can't
> punch your way through the bank vault door. No, I'm not rolling
> for it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." 1) Sometimes
> things are impossible--even for Player Characters!

I guess my view of the gods, which need not be anyone else's, is that most
of mythology is there for a reason. The stories are to illuminate why
things are the way they are, and to generally make comments about the nature
of reality. You lose that when you start throwing dice around. If you
allow Orpheus to make his will roll and not look back, the whole myth loses
it's meaning.

 

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dchilders@cablespeed.com writes:



>Max Wilson wrote:
>> I'm okay with leaving "divine" abilities open-ended, but
>> shouldn't you be able to quantify how quick-witted Odin is? how well
>> Thor holds his mead? whether Hercules could beat Hera at arm-wrestling?
>>

>Well, there is the problem that in RPGs if you give an entity
>stats, the PCs will often figure out a way to reduce those
>stats to zero and take the entity's stuff. For some play
>styles this may work, but in other genres you might want to
>say, "No, you can't outdrink Thor. No, I'm not rolling for
>it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." just as
>there are genres when you might want to say "No, you can't
>punch your way through the bank vault door. No, I'm not rolling
>for it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." 1) Sometimes
>things are impossible--even for Player Characters!

Yeah, Thor actually drank enough to appreciably lower the sea level.
His ability to drink is indisputable, although his ability to
distinguish MEAD from SEAWATER is perhaps not so impressive.

>FOOTNOTE
>1) Yes, I know that in some genres, like superheroes, people
>routinely punch through bank vault doors. However, in
>others you don't even roll. A realistic cop or soldier should
>just break his knuckles if he tries it.

I think having stats for the deities of certain pantheons makes
sense if your characters are themselves gods, or godlings or something
like that.

--
Chimes peal joy. Bah. Joseph Michael Bay
Icy colon barge Cancer Biology
Frosty divine Saturn Stanford University
By reading this line you agree to mow my lawn. NO GIVEBACKS.

 

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Yeah, Thor actually drank enough to appreciably lower the sea level.
His ability to drink is indisputable, although his ability to
distinguish MEAD from SEAWATER is perhaps not so impressive.

Despite what Gurps Fantasy says I think that might be possible to
reflect in stats as some form of cosmic enhancement on Cast Iron
Stomach.

>FOOTNOTE
>1) Yes, I know that in some genres, like superheroes, people
>routinely punch through bank vault doors. However, in
>others you don't even roll. A realistic cop or soldier should
>just break his knuckles if he tries it.


I think having stats for the deities of certain pantheons makes
sense if your characters are themselves gods, or godlings or something
like that.

Definitely if your campaign features "mere mortals" the stat's of the
deity don't mater very much. OTOH if the PC's are deities or mega
powerfull supers then the gods need stats.

 

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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 02:47:09 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>In Egyptian myths, Sekhmet was actually sent out to slaughter mankind
>because the gods were afraid that humans might grow more powerful than
>they were. Ra was described as aging into a senile old fool so Isis
>could steal his power. And the Book of the Dead was a crib sheet of
>the correct answers to give to the judges of the dead so you could
>fool them into letting you pass. Meanwhile in Hindu mythology while
>the gods themselves were rather cosmic, they were also fond of
>creating avatars that had superhuman powers but were still not totally
>beyond our pale.

Man, have you ever thought of writing for GURPS? 😉

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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Richard Brown wrote:

> Definitely if your campaign features "mere mortals" the stat's of the
> deity don't mater very much. OTOH if the PC's are deities or mega
> powerfull supers then the gods need stats.

Except that, this being GURPS, divine stats don't scale all that well.
When I need divine stats I use Primal Order notation:

Divine Rank
Divine Spheres
Immortal Aspect
Skill Classes
Primal Base
Primal Flux

Most of these are filled out for the pantheon I have up on the web at
http://www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/Pantheon.html

Once GURPS Powers is out I'll write some conversion rules for Primal Order
to GURPS 4e, but it isn't worth it until I see what makes it into the final
volume.

Jefferson
http://www.picotech.net/~jeff_wilson63/rpg/

 

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In article <1118511984.519898.264190@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"Richard Brown" <rbrown@myriad.com> wrote:

> Yeah, Thor actually drank enough to appreciably lower the sea level.
> His ability to drink is indisputable, although his ability to
> distinguish MEAD from SEAWATER is perhaps not so impressive.
>
> Despite what Gurps Fantasy says I think that might be possible to
> reflect in stats as some form of cosmic enhancement on Cast Iron
> Stomach.
>


Figure out how many points it is for the TARDIS to be larger on the
inside than the outside.

Then apply the same advantage to Thor's bladder.


Charleson Mambo

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Joseph Michael Bay wrote:
> dchilders@cablespeed.com writes:

> Yeah, Thor actually drank enough to appreciably lower the sea level.
> His ability to drink is indisputable, although his ability to
> distinguish MEAD from SEAWATER is perhaps not so impressive.

The taste was a part of the magic of the drinking horn that magically
connected to the ocean, naturally!