GURPS deities and heroes

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In article <g3p1a1t0clmch61v84h2ulssohvr59df8e@4ax.com>,
Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

> I still haven't heard any suggestions about heroes though. That's the
> other half of my inquiry. Out of the thousands of RPG writers in the
> English-speaking world, why haven't any covered that topic?

Most of the Mythical gods of the Greek or Norse mythologies vary greatly in
abilities (and even their histories) depending on the source material. A god is
as smart/stupid strong/weak as he/she needs to be for the tale's moral to happen.

Using the old Villains and Vigilantes gaming system, I once stated up the
numbers for all the Marvel characters based on the descriptions in the Marvel
Universe comics (Long commute and I had a portable computer...). In that system,
hits and power points (read fatigue) were based on strength, endurance and
weight. When it came to characters like the Thing or The Hulk after calculating
their Strength and endurance, I didn't really need to go any farther. Does a
character with 17,000 hit points really need invulnerability?

More importantly, gods always seem to have laws or rules about everything. They
seem to get offended over the weirdest things and yet laugh at the most
egregious of insults. They seem to interfere in human affairs in a willy nilly
fashion often refusing to help when the need is greatest and yet they create
young godlings whenever a mortal babe bats her eyes.

I think it would be a major (MAJOR) endeavor just to stat up Zeus with all his
Advantages, Disadvantages and Skills, much less scaling all the other gods to
equivalent levels.

The question isn't "why haven't any covered that topic?" but who would make a
profit on a book that is sure to displease 50% of the buyers?
--
Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men? The Shadow do!
--Flip Wilson

 

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On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 19:20:29 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

<snip>

>I still haven't heard any suggestions about heroes though. That's the
>other half of my inquiry. Out of the thousands of RPG writers in the
>English-speaking world, why haven't any covered that topic?

Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)

Check the other historical cultures' GURPS books for other cultures'
heroes.

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005

 

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In article <42a0a43d.33674144@news.telusplanet.net>,
David Johnston <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote:
>
>Search the entire world and find the single herb that had been
>overlooked and turn it into a lethal weapon?

There was no searching involved since the goddess that had extracted
the vows was happy to tell Loki (under disguise at the time) that she
had let the mistletoe off the hook and that it was growing just
outside Valhalla which is where they were at in the first place.

The story is unclear as to how, exactly, the mistletoe was fashioned
into a lethal weapon. It might take a bit of brains, but hardly
impossible for a hero-level character.

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

 

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On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:53:30 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
wrote:

>Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
>the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
>Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
>Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)

Oh... Well, like I mentioned earlier, I never had the opportunity to
read that one. Now I have an even worse problem: buy it now, or wait
for a new 4th Edition version to come out. Oh no!

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:03:20 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:53:30 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
>>the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
>>Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
>>Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)
>
>Oh... Well, like I mentioned earlier, I never had the opportunity to
>read that one. Now I have an even worse problem: buy it now, or wait
>for a new 4th Edition version to come out. Oh no!

Character conversion from 3e to 4e isn't that difficult, especially in
cases like this where point totals weren't given. Besides, it's not
likely that there'd be a 4e version of Greece any time soon... I'd say
buy it now if you can find a copy.

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- tznvy -qbg- pbz
"As far as Doug is concerned, "dignity" is just a tragic disease that
other people suffer from."
- Bob Schroeck, talking about his V&V character, 15 March 2005

 

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On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

>NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 20:03:14 MST
>Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2005 23:03:20 -0400
>Xref: news.telusplanet.net rec.games.frp.gurps:208806
>
>On Sat, 04 Jun 2005 10:53:30 -0400, Rob Kelk <robkelk@deadspam.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Jon F. Zeigler did, when he wrote GURPS Greece. He included stats for
>>the heroes Heracles (before apotheosis), Jason, Oedipus, Theseus,
>>Odysseus, and Medea. (He also included stats for the historical figures
>>Pindar, Xenophon, and Socrates.)
>
>Oh... Well, like I mentioned earlier, I never had the opportunity to
>read that one. Now I have an even worse problem: buy it now, or wait
>for a new 4th Edition version to come out. Oh no!

Buy it now if you want it. It is unlikely a 4th edition version will
come out.

 

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"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:nva1a1l9sri7c14ei2pdf2bf43qiorpsqs@4ax.com...

> On 2 Jun 2005 11:09:01 -0700, "Scooter the Mighty"
> <Greyguy3@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>>against or with these entities? If not, are their stats really
>>relevant?
>
> I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
> this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
> want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
> sake isn't enough. It's like whan you ask police about gun laws --
> you get an icy stare, as if you're plotting to become a terrorist!
>



OK, I agree with you to some extent, and thus have to offer an apology,
although a qualified one.


Your "brick wall" analogy is not entirely appropriate because I'm just
voicing my opinion here, not preventing you from getting information. I
apologize if my opinion seems insulting, but I'm not taking the blame for
stonewalling your efforts.


> I, for one, do not believe deity stats are pointless. People have
> stats, monsters have stats, intangible entities even have stats. What
> if someone wants to play out the Titanomacy or some divine scenaio?
> Would you actually tell them their desires are incompatible with a
> "universal" RPG? This censor-like attitude is infuriating.
>

Again, "censor-like" implies that somehow I'm canceling out the answer to
your question, which I'm not.


> Today's science suggests that the monsters of Greek legend were
> imagined from the fossils of large animals, such as an elephant's
> sinus cavity resembling a cyclops' eye socket. Because of this we
> know that at least some of these beings have specific sizes and
> shapes, and therefore DO have stats. Why not the gods too?
>

My answer to this (I realize rhetorical) question is that the nature and
value of myth is not nearly that scientific. IMHO, you can destroy the
poetic quality of a story by introducing too much math and specific values.
You need not agree with me.

 

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On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

[...]
>I don't want to come off rude, but frankly I'm tired of running into
>this kind of brick wall. It always goes the same way... "WHY do you
>want to know their stats?", as if the pursuit of knowledge for its own
>sake isn't enough. It's like whan you ask police about gun laws --
>you get an icy stare, as if you're plotting to become a terrorist!

Wel,, it's resuidal of "D&D-ism". Have stats => can kill.

>I, for one, do not believe deity stats are pointless. People have
>stats, monsters have stats, intangible entities even have stats. What

In THIS attitude, deities'stats HAVE a meaning...

[...]
>Certain characters, like those in the Iliad, were practically given
>grades when it came to how strong, fast, or skilled they were. I'd
>hoped that, by now, some scholarly individual would've taken an
>interest in statting them out for a game system or two.

....but giving "official" stats is like imposing a certain point of
view on them.
It's better to suggest a range, or a ladder: "X is stronger than Y".

Hercules was "the strongest of the mortals". Has ST 20? Has ST 25? Has
ST 30? 40? 100?

See, it should be at GM's judgement "how far is the unreachable".

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."

 

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On , Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote:

>>>That's pretty much what I think. Are the players going to be fighting
>>>against or with these entities?
>>
>>They might be. For that matter they might play gods themselves.
>>That "cosmic" power enhancement is in the rules for a reason, you
>>know.

For more than one reason, IMHO... ^________^

[...]
>Some think that "real" characters are those with a page of background
>and 50% their point total in disadvantages to add "flavor" and prove
>they're expert roleplayers. [Does that sound bitter?]

Yes, it sounds a bit so.
But you're right... The opposite side of the spectrum isn't any
brighter.

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."

 

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On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 08:28:36 -0700, "Scooter the mighty"
<Spambait@nowhere.com> wrote:

>Your "brick wall" analogy is not entirely appropriate because I'm just
>voicing my opinion here, not preventing you from getting information. I
>apologize if my opinion seems insulting, but I'm not taking the blame for
>stonewalling your efforts.

I understand what you mean about "brick wall" and "censor-like" being
too harsh. But what do you call it when the deliberate witholding of
assistance hampers one's search for knowledge?

Yes, it may sound a bit dramatic, but that attitude (not necessarily
yours though) is akin to the firemen watching the house burn down
because they didn't like the owner. (And that does happen, more
frequently that people suspect.) Perhaps a better analogy is the
scientist whose peers won't lift a finger to help him because they
don't approve of the unconventional way he does things.

Too many people seem to think they're such hot stuff, and that in
their presumptuous "wisdom" think it's their duty to stymie those
non-establishment folks who threaten to upset the status quo.

In fact, I'd better stop writing soon, because I'm getting downright
PO'd about how many punks there are out there -- half my age -- who
dare to presume authority over what I do and don't "need to know"!!!

Thanks for listening and answering what you could.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:58:47 -0700, "Scooter the mighty"
<Spambait@nowhere.com> wrote:

>But I'm not witholding assistance!

I didn't mean to suggest that YOU were, but rather members of the
role-playing community in general. Specifically, that such seems to
be a nasty trend, and while presumably intended to weed out the
"Munchkins", does damage outside its intended scope as well.

Hey, if the info's not out there, then that's that. I just wanted to
make sure I got past everybody's anti-Munchkin shields before
accepting that as being the uncensored truth.

>I think a better analogy is scientists who tell another scientist that what
>he or she wants to do isn't important. Which is, as it turns out, a really
>helpful thing that scientists do for each other.

Unless, for example, one of them has a book in the works and doesn't
want someone else to beat them to the punch... then what otherwise
looks like contructive criticism takes on a whole new significance. :O

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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>Douglas Berry wrote
>Thor is destined to die in the jaws of the Migaard Serpent. Nothing
>can alter that fate.

Yes but that can easily be reflected in game stats. Unkillable 2 or 3
with a limitation except for how he's desitned to die at ragnarok.

>The problem stems from seeing Gods as merely "really, really powerful
>characters." They aren't. In any good mythological structure, they
>are the forces that power the universe. Aphrodite isn't just a good
>looking chick, she *is* Love, and Passion, and Envy. Mere mortals
>gazing upon here would probably be driven mad by the sheer force of
>her beauty. Likewise, Thor *is* the storm, etc.


These things can also be reflected in stats. If you interpret
Aphrodite's embodyment of love etc to be her reflecting what mortals do
use a variation of the Sea Aspected moods quirk used in Fantasy for the
seal Fey. If you figure it the other way around ie. The weather is
Thor's moods provide the apropriate advantages (have to wait for powers
for weather control) and add a nusance effect of the power being
unconsiously controlded by his mood, and of course enough increased
area to cover the part of the world that worships him.

IMO it's not that you can't create stat's for dieties, it's just that
it's a pain to get the power level high enough.

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:05:59 GMT, rgorman@telusplanet.net (David
Johnston) wrote:

>And greek gods can't be killed at all. But they CAN be and have been
>defeated.

Your one-liner solutions make me feel like I'm putting *way* too much
effort into typing this!

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:47:00 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>>Several times in your message you've made belittling remarks and
>>insinuations. If you continue to insult me, I shall react strongly.
>
>This is me not shaking in my boots.

So be it. Where would you like to duel?

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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In article <nqr8a1pgnatjr0su472jr1tqgilbk6e6be@4ax.com>,
Douglas Berry <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>Brushing aside whatever sarcasm was probably bogging down your
>>question: Yes, I do feel the need to get a professional consensus on
>>what Odin's (and other deities') stats would be.
>
>Why? Odin cannot be killed until Rangarok. He *is* magic and wisdom.

Stats can be useful for more than just killing the character. So what
if he has a cosmic Unkillable advantage - the question is what more
does he have?

(That said, "Unkillable, killable only by Fenris at Ragnarok" _is_ a
very important entry on his sheet, and one that it is important to
impart upon the GM.)

The sagas tell of Odin having various problems that he overcomes (or
not) in different ways. They also tell of him walking among mortals.
In these contexts, at least knowing what social advantages and
disadvantages he has can be of the highest interest. Also knowing what
his weak spots are (if any) can be of interest. And if he doesn't have
any, knowing _this_ is also very useful.

Reading a character write-up of Odin seems a much more effective means
of imparting this knowledge upon the GM than requiring him to read the
sagas and make up his own mind.

Cheers
Bent D
--
Bent Dalager - bcd@pvv.org - http://www.pvv.org/~bcd
powered by emacs

 

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On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:09 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
Dalager) wrote:

>Reading a character write-up of Odin seems a much more effective means
>of imparting this knowledge upon the GM than requiring him to read the
>sagas and make up his own mind.

Additionally, I find it helpful to have human-sized stats for the
various deities, as if they'd been turned into mortals. Seeing Thor
have a ST of 19 or something seems much more helpful to me than just
*guessing* how muscular he looks with only super-human stats to go by.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:n719a11efd3780crko2k8d594sk065ei87@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 6 Jun 2005 16:08:09 +0000 (UTC), bcd@pvv.ntnu.no (Bent C
> Dalager) wrote:
>
>>Reading a character write-up of Odin seems a much more effective means
>>of imparting this knowledge upon the GM than requiring him to read the
>>sagas and make up his own mind.
>
> Additionally, I find it helpful to have human-sized stats for the
> various deities, as if they'd been turned into mortals. Seeing Thor
> have a ST of 19 or something seems much more helpful to me than just
> *guessing* how muscular he looks with only super-human stats to go by.
>
Hmmmm... Gurps Who's Who: Legends and Avatars?

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 13:21:51 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following
>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 15:47:00 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>>Several times in your message you've made belittling remarks and
>>>insinuations. If you continue to insult me, I shall react strongly.
>>
>>This is me not shaking in my boots.
>
>So be it. Where would you like to duel?

East Range, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. The weapon of choice is the
M-24 Sniper Weapon System.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:57:48 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>East Range, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. The weapon of choice is the
>M-24 Sniper Weapon System.

It will have to be someplace on the continent that I can drive, bike,
or walk to, since I don't have access to a boat. Although I consider
the use of long-range firearms to be cowardly, if this M-24 thingie is
your choice, I'll try to oblige.

You may contact me privately by e-mail to schedule the details.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 16:28:05 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following

>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 18:57:48 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>East Range, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. The weapon of choice is the
>>M-24 Sniper Weapon System.
>
>It will have to be someplace on the continent that I can drive, bike,
>or walk to, since I don't have access to a boat. Although I consider
>the use of long-range firearms to be cowardly, if this M-24 thingie is
>your choice, I'll try to oblige.

I'll see if I get schedule some time in Badwater Flats.

I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
is!

>You may contact me privately by e-mail to schedule the details.

Feel free to hold your breath while I get around to that.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:54:26 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
>is!

I could never get used to it. I guess for some it's a power trip, but
it just made me feel like a pervert or something. As for bare-handed,
though that's not what I was suggesting, I guess that's fine too. If
you want my opinion, old-fashioned melee weapons are best.

>Feel free to hold your breath while I get around to that.

If you want to back down, at least have the courage to be plain about
it so I don't waste time preparing for something you won't show up at.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 17:25:12 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following
>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:54:26 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
>>is!
>
>I could never get used to it. I guess for some it's a power trip, but
>it just made me feel like a pervert or something. As for bare-handed,
>though that's not what I was suggesting, I guess that's fine too. If
>you want my opinion, old-fashioned melee weapons are best.

Y'see, I live in real world, where swords haven't been used seriously
in a century. My military training involves firearms and barehands.
If you want to go that route, I used to teach hand to hand at the US
Army Ranger School.

>>Feel free to hold your breath while I get around to that.
>
>If you want to back down, at least have the courage to be plain about
>it so I don't waste time preparing for something you won't show up at.

OK, you pay for everything, including my travel and accomodations, and
I'll show up. But I'm not spending a dime to deliver a smackdown to a
whiny child who is incapable of doing his own damn research and cries
about how mean everyone is.


--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:03:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:

>OK, you pay for everything, including my travel and accomodations, and
>I'll show up. But I'm not spending a dime to deliver a smackdown to a
>whiny child who is incapable of doing his own damn research and cries
>about how mean everyone is.

You're the one who accepted the challenge, but now you try to weasle
your way out with words? I've already stood my ground. Either back
up your snyde remarks or cower in silence.

-- Matt Jozwiak

 

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On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 22:14:12 -0400, Red Beard <Akahige@HotPOP.com>
drained his beer, leaned back in the rec.games.frp.gurps beanbag and
drunkenly proclaimed the following
>On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 23:03:34 GMT, Douglas Berry
><penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
>>OK, you pay for everything, including my travel and accomodations, and
>>I'll show up. But I'm not spending a dime to deliver a smackdown to a
>>whiny child who is incapable of doing his own damn research and cries
>>about how mean everyone is.
>
>You're the one who accepted the challenge, but now you try to weasle
>your way out with words? I've already stood my ground. Either back
>up your snyde remarks or cower in silence.

Pay my way. Or come out here. Or grow up. Your choice.
--

Douglas E. Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.

 

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Red Beard schrieb:
>
> On Mon, 06 Jun 2005 20:54:26 GMT, Douglas Berry
> <penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
>
> >I see you've never been a sniper. But if you prefer, barehanded it
> >is!
>
> I could never get used to it. I guess for some it's a power trip, but
> it just made me feel like a pervert or something. As for bare-handed,
> though that's not what I was suggesting, I guess that's fine too. If
> you want my opinion, old-fashioned melee weapons are best.

Gentlemen, Gentlemen...
As everybody knows, there is only *one* way to proper handle a duel:
Shotguns and observation balloons.

Bye
Ingo