Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)
Scooter the mighty wrote:
> <dchilders@cablespeed.com> wrote in message
> > Max Wilson wrote:
> >> I'm okay with leaving "divine" abilities open-ended, but
> >> shouldn't you be able to quantify how quick-witted Odin is? how well
> >> Thor holds his mead? whether Hercules could beat Hera at arm-wrestling?
> >>
> >
> > Well, there is the problem that in RPGs if you give an entity
> > stats, the PCs will often figure out a way to reduce those
> > stats to zero and take the entity's stuff. For some play
> > styles this may work, but in other genres you might want to
> > say, "No, you can't outdrink Thor. No, I'm not rolling for
> > it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." just as
> > there are genres when you might want to say "No, you can't
> > punch your way through the bank vault door. No, I'm not rolling
> > for it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." 1) Sometimes
> > things are impossible--even for Player Characters!
>
> I guess my view of the gods, which need not be anyone else's, is that most
> of mythology is there for a reason. The stories are to illuminate why
> things are the way they are, and to generally make comments about the nature
> of reality. You lose that when you start throwing dice around. If you
> allow Orpheus to make his will roll and not look back, the whole myth loses
> it's meaning.
Well, heroes can "roll dice" too and still create stories. A story is
about what happened, not just what *could* have happened--maybe the
Lord of the Nazghuls would beat Eowyn 99 fights out of 100 if they got
to do it over again. But by choosing that particular time to fight her,
and losing, Theoden is saved and maybe Gondor as well. So if you're
arguing that dice make stories lose meaning, I respectfully disagree.
Events create stories--stats and dice are irrelevant.
But I think you're actually making a different point and I'm missing it
because I'm not familiar enough with Orpheus. No? Perhaps the Orpheus
legend warns us of the folly of, oh, living in the past or something,
and it *would* ruin the legend to have Orpheus make his Will roll. I
agree that in this case we're dealing with literature and not an
interactive RPG, and literature doesn't need stats. I can certainly
imagine genres where the "gods" are purely metaphysical; stats here
would probably be pointless, and indeed the objective existence of
these gods is probably arguable. In some genres, "stats" for Poseidon
might make no more sense than "stats for the Pacific Ocean."
If you *do* intend to have Norse/Greek-like interactions between gods
and humans, stats of some kind are probably a prerequisite for
interesting stories. This doesn't mean you need point-values for Thor,
and maybe he'll have some divine-type stats like "unbounded ST,
unbounded FT, unbounded physical appetites," but if he has a finite IQ
you can still get interesting stories that resemble the old myths.
Max Wilson
Scooter the mighty wrote:
> <dchilders@cablespeed.com> wrote in message
> > Max Wilson wrote:
> >> I'm okay with leaving "divine" abilities open-ended, but
> >> shouldn't you be able to quantify how quick-witted Odin is? how well
> >> Thor holds his mead? whether Hercules could beat Hera at arm-wrestling?
> >>
> >
> > Well, there is the problem that in RPGs if you give an entity
> > stats, the PCs will often figure out a way to reduce those
> > stats to zero and take the entity's stuff. For some play
> > styles this may work, but in other genres you might want to
> > say, "No, you can't outdrink Thor. No, I'm not rolling for
> > it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." just as
> > there are genres when you might want to say "No, you can't
> > punch your way through the bank vault door. No, I'm not rolling
> > for it. No, I don't care what Advantages you have." 1) Sometimes
> > things are impossible--even for Player Characters!
>
> I guess my view of the gods, which need not be anyone else's, is that most
> of mythology is there for a reason. The stories are to illuminate why
> things are the way they are, and to generally make comments about the nature
> of reality. You lose that when you start throwing dice around. If you
> allow Orpheus to make his will roll and not look back, the whole myth loses
> it's meaning.
Well, heroes can "roll dice" too and still create stories. A story is
about what happened, not just what *could* have happened--maybe the
Lord of the Nazghuls would beat Eowyn 99 fights out of 100 if they got
to do it over again. But by choosing that particular time to fight her,
and losing, Theoden is saved and maybe Gondor as well. So if you're
arguing that dice make stories lose meaning, I respectfully disagree.
Events create stories--stats and dice are irrelevant.
But I think you're actually making a different point and I'm missing it
because I'm not familiar enough with Orpheus. No? Perhaps the Orpheus
legend warns us of the folly of, oh, living in the past or something,
and it *would* ruin the legend to have Orpheus make his Will roll. I
agree that in this case we're dealing with literature and not an
interactive RPG, and literature doesn't need stats. I can certainly
imagine genres where the "gods" are purely metaphysical; stats here
would probably be pointless, and indeed the objective existence of
these gods is probably arguable. In some genres, "stats" for Poseidon
might make no more sense than "stats for the Pacific Ocean."
If you *do* intend to have Norse/Greek-like interactions between gods
and humans, stats of some kind are probably a prerequisite for
interesting stories. This doesn't mean you need point-values for Thor,
and maybe he'll have some divine-type stats like "unbounded ST,
unbounded FT, unbounded physical appetites," but if he has a finite IQ
you can still get interesting stories that resemble the old myths.
Max Wilson
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