How to expand the strategy of Library Destruction

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Library destruction ousting mechanic in this game, as has been
discussed over and over and over again, is a bit rough. At the very
least it makes for an interesting thought process, in other ways it
riles hatred in players quicker than the thought of grouping library
cards. :)

Most of us believe that it was implimented badly or akwardly. For those
that believe such, what direction could library destruction take in
making decks more playable?

Here are some examples of ways library destruction alternatives could
go that I'd like to see in the future:

Stressing the Dam
Master. Unique.
Choose a methuselah and put this card into play. If a card would go
into the choosen methuselah's ashheap, put it on this card instead.
Burn this card during your untap phase. The choosen methuselah burns a
pool for every card in excess of ten on this card when this card is
burned.

Sermon of Nihilism
Master. *requires some clan* Unique.
Put a counter on this card each time you successfully bleed your prey.
Each time you bleed your prey, burn X cards from the top of their
library, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any methuselah
may take a D action to burn up to 2 coutners from this card.

Similar thoughts?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

not really similar ones...

library milling is a hard-to-win strategy, but it´s fun and can be
well implemented in a number of ways. the most succesful one i had up
to now was anarchizing the harbingers of skulls.

slaughterhouses (at least 3 of them); Egothha and Agaitas and Border
Skirmishes all the way.

that would count for as much time as you can keep yourself protected
from bleedds (protected resources help a lot!)...but i tell you, it´s
quite a slow game most of the time...

Agaitas will get cards from your prey´s library, and since you´re
anarch, there´s a good chance you can use them (i pack my anarch decks
with various skill cards for that effect)

and the deck can be quite small, since nec will allow you to fetch
everything you need back...
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> "Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > Most of us believe that it was implimented badly or akwardly.
>
> "Most" of whom?

My apologies for the hyperbole. You can update the above post with the
more
sensitive-to-the-feelings-of-the-game-designer-and-vocal-minority-that-believe-deck-destruction-is-good
with the following:

Some of us believe it was implimented badly and or akwardly, and most
of us believe that it has much room for improvement.

(side note: There's probably two or three people at least on the thread
Library Destruction that think my initial statement is borderline valid
enough, like, perhaps, Joshua Duffin, frederick Scott, Colin Goodman,
Flux, Robert Goudie and Talonz, who just hates it apparently...).

~SV

"Tough" ain't an answer to that - unless you're taking the role of a
Marine drill sargent. (Heh! "NOBODY SAID JYHAD WAS SUPPOSED TO BE
*FUN*, MAGGOTS! JUST *PLAY* IT!!!") -Frederick Scott
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

press wrote:
> not really similar ones...
>
> library milling is a hard-to-win strategy, but it´s fun and can be
> well implemented in a number of ways. the most succesful one i had up
> to now was anarchizing the harbingers of skulls.
>
> slaughterhouses (at least 3 of them); Egothha and Agaitas and Border
> Skirmishes all the way.

Border Skirmish makes me laugh. At best it says "I lose one X, you
loose one X" When X here is something you need to nuke like 20+ of, it
ain't that great, bud. Though opinions may differ. :)

And you still lack an ousting mechanic, unless its "I play Dia De Los
Muertos, HoS dude plays Brinkmanship with Daring the Dawn and hopes to
GAWD no one throws a delaying tactics..." which is fun when you get it
to happen, but is one of those corner case victories that happen once
in every 15 games...

> and the deck can be quite small, since nec will allow you to fetch
> everything you need back...

Could be good, though a cardless fetch would be better (sargon
fragment. Giovanni guy, foget his name...)

~SV
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> And you still lack an ousting mechanic, unless its "I play Dia De Los
> Muertos, HoS dude plays Brinkmanship with Daring the Dawn and hopes
to
> GAWD no one throws a delaying tactics..." which is fun when you get
it
> to happen, but is one of those corner case victories that happen once
> in every 15 games...
>

Cardinal Benedictions + Telpathic Vote Countings
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Border Skirmish makes me laugh. At best it says "I lose one X, you
> loose one X" When X here is something you need to nuke like 20+ of,
it
> ain't that great, bud. Though opinions may differ. :)

Well, i know i laugh a lot when playing this deck, so we might have a
bit in common here... 😀 and really, you don´t need 20+ of anything
once you have NEC.

> And you still lack an ousting mechanic, unless its "I play Dia De Los
> Muertos, HoS dude plays Brinkmanship with Daring the Dawn and hopes
to
> GAWD no one throws a delaying tactics..." which is fun when you get
it
> to happen, but is one of those corner case victories that happen once
> in every 15 games...
>

did I ever say the deck is competitive? no...indeed it lacks forward
pressure. but then with AUS you can get pulse of the canaille in your
vamps; legendary vampire is a bit cornercase but usually helps; and as
soon as your adversaries don´t have many cards left to play, they´ll
be unable to block every single action you take. and if they try, it´s
unlikely they´ll be able to do that with enough intercept to get all
your minions. that´s when anarch railroad, spectral divination and
call of the hungry dead are great. see??? all things can be managed to
work, given enought thinking into it, without trying too hard for a
Magic-al solution

> Could be good, though a cardless fetch would be better (sargon
> fragment. Giovanni guy, foget his name...)

Pochtli. he can be used, indeed...as Carlotta can also. but i´m a
freak for pure-clan decks. and yes, they may be freely added to the
crypt, if you think it´ll help you. i don´t think they´re all that
good in this particular deck, no sir.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

LSJ wrote:
> "Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1107979562.251938.157290@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > > "Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > > Most of us believe that it was implimented badly or akwardly.
> > >
> > > "Most" of whom?
> >
> > My apologies for the hyperbole. You can update the above post with
the
> > more
> >
sensitive-to-the-feelings-of-the-game-designer-and-vocal-minority-that-believe-deck-destruction-is-good
> > with the following:
>
> Ah. Those that have differing opinions are the "vocal minority" while
> those that agree are "most".

And you get to be the 'sensitive game designer', sure. Really, LSJ.
Quit taking VTES so seriously. :)

> Thanks for clarifying your source, at any rate. Always helpful
> to know how to handle incoming data.

*files thread under 'psycho VTES complainer rant droppings'*

~SV
Just trying to get people to talk about library destruction, its
merits, short comings and hilarious attempts and wish-list.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

>Border Skirmish makes me laugh. At best it says "I lose one X, you
>loose one X" When X here is something you need to nuke like 20+ of, it
>ain't that great, bud. Though opinions may differ. :)

Well, except that it makes EVERY Methusaleh lose one card. Perhaps
you're right that it's not that great for deck burning. But think
about combining it with Jan Pieterzoon, Aggressive Tactics and Meddling
of Semsith. Border Skirmish is really best for hand burn, not deck
burn.

Eric Simon
Prince of Chicago
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Most of us believe that it was implimented badly or akwardly.

"Most" of whom?

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
> >Border Skirmish makes me laugh. At best it says "I lose one X, you
> >loose one X" When X here is something you need to nuke like 20+ of,
it
> >ain't that great, bud. Though opinions may differ. :)
>
> Well, except that it makes EVERY Methusaleh lose one card. Perhaps
> you're right that it's not that great for deck burning. But think
> about combining it with Jan Pieterzoon, Aggressive Tactics and
Meddling
> of Semsith. Border Skirmish is really best for hand burn, not deck
> burn.

What is hand burn if not deck burn?

I agree that a permanent such as Slaughterhouse is better for targetted
library destruction, but Border Skirmish eliminates up to 4 cards from
the table's combined library resources where Slaughterhouse is only 2
at a time.

Border Skirmish also is terribly disruptive to the table. This might
slow players down just enough to where they can't get the ousts they
need. Of course, there are two edges to any random sword, but in
general the disruption is conducive to your ultimate goal.

Jeff
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1107979562.251938.157290@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > "Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > > Most of us believe that it was implimented badly or akwardly.
> >
> > "Most" of whom?
>
> My apologies for the hyperbole. You can update the above post with the
> more
> sensitive-to-the-feelings-of-the-game-designer-and-vocal-minority-that-believe-deck-destruction-is-good
> with the following:

Ah. Those that have differing opinions are the "vocal minority" while
those that agree are "most".

Thanks for clarifying your source, at any rate. Always helpful
to know how to handle incoming data.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1107979829.464767.272210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> And you still lack an ousting mechanic, unless its "I play Dia De Los
> Muertos, HoS dude plays Brinkmanship with Daring the Dawn and hopes to
> GAWD no one throws a delaying tactics..." which is fun when you get it
> to happen, but is one of those corner case victories that happen once
> in every 15 games...

You can't Delaying Tactics a vote that's passing automatically. "During
the referendum" effects aren't allowed.

You do have to hope that your Dia de los Muertos doesn't get Suddenly
Reversed though. And that the Daring the Dawn doesn't get Directly
Intervened. But those aren't all that likely either. And you can
include other vote-passing measures of some kind, like Telepathic Vote
Counting and Cardinal Benedictions.


Josh

has seen it happen
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

"Joshua Duffin" <jtduffin@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:36va21F52urdmU1@individual.net...
>
> "Screaming Vermillian" <vermillian69@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1107979829.464767.272210@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > And you still lack an ousting mechanic, unless its "I play Dia De Los
> > Muertos, HoS dude plays Brinkmanship with Daring the Dawn and hopes to
> > GAWD no one throws a delaying tactics..." which is fun when you get it
> > to happen, but is one of those corner case victories that happen once
> > in every 15 games...
>
> You can't Delaying Tactics a vote that's passing automatically. "During
> the referendum" effects aren't allowed.
>
> You do have to hope that your Dia de los Muertos doesn't get Suddenly
> Reversed though. And that the Daring the Dawn doesn't get Directly
> Intervened. But those aren't all that likely either. And you can
> include other vote-passing measures of some kind, like Telepathic Vote
> Counting and Cardinal Benedictions.


And watch out for those pesky +1 intercept allies. 🙂

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Hi,
I agree. Discarding it's not a winning strategy.
I made a Harbinger with a lot of slaughterhouse, intercept and
fortittud. It was very fun, but never won.
It had been transformed to a wall with more fortittud, sniper rifle,
ivory bow, with presses and torment of soul. This deck almost always
win.

Dr. Enrique Montaño
V:EKN Brujah Prince of Tlaxcala



Screaming Vermillian wrote:
> Library destruction ousting mechanic in this game, as has been
> discussed over and over and over again, is a bit rough. At the very
> least it makes for an interesting thought process, in other ways it
> riles hatred in players quicker than the thought of grouping library
> cards. :)
>
> Most of us believe that it was implimented badly or akwardly. For
those
> that believe such, what direction could library destruction take in
> making decks more playable?
>
> Here are some examples of ways library destruction alternatives could
> go that I'd like to see in the future:
>
> Stressing the Dam
> Master. Unique.
> Choose a methuselah and put this card into play. If a card would go
> into the choosen methuselah's ashheap, put it on this card instead.
> Burn this card during your untap phase. The choosen methuselah burns
a
> pool for every card in excess of ten on this card when this card is
> burned.
>
> Sermon of Nihilism
> Master. *requires some clan* Unique.
> Put a counter on this card each time you successfully bleed your
prey.
> Each time you bleed your prey, burn X cards from the top of their
> library, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any
methuselah
> may take a D action to burn up to 2 coutners from this card.
>
> Similar thoughts?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

volya42@yahoo.com wrote:
> >Border Skirmish makes me laugh. At best it says "I lose one X, you
> >loose one X" When X here is something you need to nuke like 20+ of,
it
> >ain't that great, bud. Though opinions may differ. :)
>
> Well, except that it makes EVERY Methusaleh lose one card. Perhaps
> you're right that it's not that great for deck burning. But think
> about combining it with Jan Pieterzoon, Aggressive Tactics and
Meddling
> of Semsith. Border Skirmish is really best for hand burn, not deck
> burn.

Yeah, hand denial is another under developed area, but lets discuss
that later in a thread entitled 'hand destruction' perhaps. 😉
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

> Could be good, though a cardless fetch would be better (sargon
fragment. Giovanni guy, foget his name...)

Giovanni GIRL, you machist !! Carlotta to be precise. Has an included Sargon
at +1 stealth.

Pochtli has a sup Summon Soul included.
------------
Orpheus, Necromonger
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 15:19:43 -0500, LSJ <vtesrep@white-wolf.com> wrote:

>> My apologies for the hyperbole. You can update the above post with the
>> more
>> sensitive-to-the-feelings-of-the-game-designer-and-vocal-minority-that-believe-deck-destruction-is-good
>> with the following:
>
> Ah. Those that have differing opinions are the "vocal minority" while
> those that agree are "most".
>
> Thanks for clarifying your source, at any rate. Always helpful
> to know how to handle incoming data.

Nevertheless, even an arbitrary statement can be true. Being arbitrary
hinders debate (not much an issue I guess), but that alone does not
make it untrue. Just unsupported.

I hate deck destruction. 😉

Well, not really. I hated it at first time, but then I mostly just
prevent the 64 and/or withdraw for the +1 VP. I'm in my "resilient
defence" period... 😉

So better phrased, I don't like deck destruction, but I don't
really like AR or PTO either (basically, stuff that kill somebody
else's game more than helping the player to VPs).

--
Bye,

Daneel
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:

> Stressing the Dam
> Master. Unique.
> Choose a methuselah and put this card into play. If a card would go
> into the choosen methuselah's ashheap, put it on this card instead.
> Burn this card during your untap phase. The choosen methuselah burns
a
> pool for every card in excess of ten on this card when this card is
> burned.

What a ridiculous card. Think about this for some time, then decide
it's balanced or not.

> Sermon of Nihilism
> Master. *requires some clan* Unique.
> Put a counter on this card each time you successfully bleed your
prey.
> Each time you bleed your prey, burn X cards from the top of their
> library, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any
methuselah
> may take a D action to burn up to 2 coutners from this card.
>
> Similar thoughts?

Same as above.

-Bram Vink
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Screaming Vermillian wrote:

> Stressing the Dam
> Master. Unique.
> Choose a methuselah and put this card into play. If a card would go
> into the choosen methuselah's ashheap, put it on this card instead.
> Burn this card during your untap phase. The choosen methuselah burns
a
> pool for every card in excess of ten on this card when this card is
> burned.

What a ridiculous card. Think about this for some time, then decide
it's balanced or not.

> Sermon of Nihilism
> Master. *requires some clan* Unique.
> Put a counter on this card each time you successfully bleed your
prey.
> Each time you bleed your prey, burn X cards from the top of their
> library, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any
methuselah
> may take a D action to burn up to 2 coutners from this card.
>
> Similar thoughts?

Same as above, to a lesser degree.

-Bram Vink
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

>> Ah. Those that have differing opinions are the "vocal minority"
while
>> those that agree are "most".

> And you get to be the 'sensitive game designer', sure. Really, LSJ.
> Quit taking VTES so seriously. :)

No, please don't start taking V;tES less seriously. I'd really much
rather like the designer of this game carried on taking V:tES seriously
for as long as possible, thanks :O)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Darky wrote:
> Screaming Vermillian wrote:
>
> > Stressing the Dam
> > Master. Unique.
> > Choose a methuselah and put this card into play. If a card would go
> > into the choosen methuselah's ashheap, put it on this card instead.
> > Burn this card during your untap phase. The choosen methuselah
burns
> a
> > pool for every card in excess of ten on this card when this card is
> > burned.
>
> What a ridiculous card. Think about this for some time, then decide
> it's balanced or not.

No. I really didn't think about it too much. I just thought of trying
to relate deck destruction to your normal ousting mechanic = pool loss.
I'm not here to critique exact power levels or anything, just to
discuss where things could go.

As for the power level of the card, it probably shouldn't be ANY
methuselah, and should probably be your prey. The exact number or cards
lost and the number of pool burned should be carefully analyzed and
then changed, naturally. Furthermore, perhaps it should be an action
for certain clan or discipline. This realy isn't the point though.

What are your feeling of associating pool with library (similar too,
but no where near the same as, please god, the prophecies card).

> > Sermon of Nihilism
> > Master. *requires some clan* Unique.
> > Put a counter on this card each time you successfully bleed your
> prey.
> > Each time you bleed your prey, burn X cards from the top of their
> > library, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any
> methuselah
> > may take a D action to burn up to 2 coutners from this card.
> >
> > Similar thoughts?
>
> Same as above.

Ditto.

(some one isn't thinking, are they?)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad (More info?)

Cock Robin, 7 Raptors, with Harrod passing the Brinksmanship with Animal
Magnetism. You could also use Cailean and Ellison Humboldt to help pass
that Brinksmanship (and do raptor recruiting too). If only Cock and
Sheldon could be used at the same time, you could give Sheldon the Raptors
and have him use Eagle's Sight... Once you have 7 Raptors, you basically
block everything your prey does undirected.

best -

chris

Screaming Vermillian wrote:

> Library destruction ousting mechanic in this game, as has been
> discussed over and over and over again, is a bit rough. At the very
> least it makes for an interesting thought process, in other ways it
> riles hatred in players quicker than the thought of grouping library
> cards. :)
>
> Most of us believe that it was implimented badly or akwardly. For those
> that believe such, what direction could library destruction take in
> making decks more playable?
>
> Here are some examples of ways library destruction alternatives could
> go that I'd like to see in the future:
>
> Stressing the Dam
> Master. Unique.
> Choose a methuselah and put this card into play. If a card would go
> into the choosen methuselah's ashheap, put it on this card instead.
> Burn this card during your untap phase. The choosen methuselah burns a
> pool for every card in excess of ten on this card when this card is
> burned.
>
> Sermon of Nihilism
> Master. *requires some clan* Unique.
> Put a counter on this card each time you successfully bleed your prey.
> Each time you bleed your prey, burn X cards from the top of their
> library, where X is the number of counters on this card. Any methuselah
> may take a D action to burn up to 2 coutners from this card.
>
> Similar thoughts?

--
chris shorb
 
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