I need a bag :(

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

After my last, rather promising Healer met the Dread Lord YASD
mimicing a brown mold corpse (moral: don't eat while satiated), I
decided to try a Valk instead, as I wanted a break from wimpy
early-game characters and everyone kept saying Valks are so easy.

Well, it seems there's some truth to that, as this is the farthest
I've ever got without dying. Which isn't that far, really, but
anyway. I think this character just might ascend some day. Maybe.

Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480

Anyway, this game has been somewhat odd. One thing I haven't been
able to find, despite much searching, is a bag. Really. Not a single
bag so far. I did Sokoban (the first time ever, for me) just for the
sake of finding a bag of holding, but noooo... of course it had to be
a bloody amulet of reflection.

Which would be fine, if the first amulet I'd found, in a shop on Dlvl
2, hadn't also been reflection. So now I have two "s of reflection,
which I supposed is nice enough, but I'm getting really sick of "Your
knapsack cannot accommodate any more items"!

The good side to this is that it has forced me to learn to keep
stashes. The bad side is that it has forced me to keep stashes, and
now my stuff is scattered is piles and boxes all around the dungeon.

Altars have also been nearly as scarce as bags; the only one I've
found is the one in Minetown. It was lawful, but I finally went and
converted it, since I really wanted some holy water, and zapped the
priest. This got me my protection money back, but unfortunately also
cost me telepathy, which I rather miss. I do have a ring of warning,
which almost makes up for it. I spent some time on the early levels
looking for floating eyes, but all I got was hungry. So for now I'm
just hoping I'll bump into one eventually.

The game has also been full of c(o|hi)ckatrices. Only one hiss so
far, though, and I luckily had a lizard handy. No gloves to be seen,
of course. I've got a pair of eggs in a stash that I'm somewhat
suspicious about, but haven't id'd them yet.

An early bump with a poly trap left me feeling like a new woman, and
also dumb and ugly (int 8, cha 8). Strangely, I couldn't find the
trap again -- do poly traps vanish? The low int has somewhat hindered
my spellcasting efforts, but I do have magic missile, jumping, healing
and sleep, and I also have plenty of un-id'd books stashed around.

I'm somewhat uncommitted about my armor choice right now. I have +0
dwarvish mithril, which gives me AC -11 but also 100% spell failure.
The other choice is +0 leather, which is plentiful thanks to golems,
weighs the same, gives me AC -7 and lets me cast spells. No studded
leather so far. I've also found a crystal plate mail, which would
give both excellent AC and spellcasting, but weighs a ton. I've also
got a robe from the priest, though I still need to uncurse it.

Otherwise, things have been pretty good. I have a blessed magic
marker, a unihorn from Sokoban (and one live gray unicorn left, so I
can come back with some gems), some useful rings, decent armor, enough
lizards and lembas to survive, etc. I've got intrinsic sleep and
poison resistance, invisibility and (I think) speed. My luck is
probably at 0, but a visit to Mines' End and then Sokoban should help
with that.

So, any ideas on finding a bag and maybe gloves too? Or any generic
survival help?

(Here's my inventory and selected stuff from stashes, just to make
this already long post longer.)

Amulets
j - an uncursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
v - an uncursed amulet of reflection
Weapons
a - a rustproof +1 long sword (weapon in hand)
b - the +3 Sting (alternate weapon; not wielded)
F - 3 +0 elven daggers
W - 9 uncursed orcish daggers
Armor
c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
t - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
H - an uncursed greased +1 pair of high boots (being worn)
P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)
Q - an uncursed +0 mummy wrapping
Comestibles
l - a lembas wafer
y - 2 uncursed lembas wafers
N - 5 uncursed lizard corpses
Scrolls
L - an uncursed scroll of stinking cloud
Z - an uncursed scroll of punishment
Spellbooks
C - an uncursed parchment spellbook
D - an uncursed stained spellbook
Potions
x - an uncursed potion called fruit juice
B - an uncursed emerald potion
J - a cursed sky blue potion
M - an uncursed murky potion
Rings
e - an uncursed ring of see invisible (on right hand)
h - an uncursed ring of polymorph control
k - a blessed +1 ring of adornment
o - an uncursed ring of warning (on left hand)
E - an uncursed ring of levitation
G - an uncursed ring of sustain ability
Wands
g - an uncursed wand of magic missile
i - a wand of digging (0:5)
m - a wand of fire (0:3)
s - an uncursed wand of lightning
u - an uncursed wand of create monster
I - an uncursed wand of cold
V - a wand of teleportation
Y - an uncursed wand of digging
Tools
f - an uncursed unicorn horn
w - an uncursed tin whistle
K - a blessed magic marker (0:39)
O - an uncursed leash
R - an uncursed skeleton key
S - an uncursed brass lantern
T - an uncursed towel
U - an uncursed mirror

Things that are here:
5 uncursed scrolls of blank paper
a blessed scroll of magic mapping
an uncursed scroll of create monster
an uncursed scroll of taming
3 uncursed scrolls of teleportation
an uncursed scroll of remove curse
a cursed scroll of magic mapping
a blessed scroll of create monster
an uncursed small shield
3 uncursed food rations
an uncursed scimitar
an uncursed orcish shield
a cursed robe
4 blessed daggers
an uncursed +0 dwarvish mithril-coat
a cursed potion of healing named cursed?

Also stashed elsewhere:

* blessed greased +1 dwarven cloak
* an uncursed greased +0 ring mail
* an uncursed greased +2 pair of iron shoes

* a scroll of teleportation
* a blessed scroll of teleportation
* a cursed scroll of blank paper
* 2 uncursed scrolls of gold detection
* an uncursed scroll of earth
* an uncursed scroll of destroy armor
* 2 scrolls of earth

* 2 spellbooks of jumping
* a copper spellbook
* a pink spellbook
* a spellbook of sleep
* a spellbook of healing
* a spellbook of cause fear
* a spellbook of magic missile

* a potion of confusion
* a potion of blindness
* a potion of invisibility
* a potion called fruit juice
* a cursed potion of enlightenment
* a cursed potion of gain energy

* a ring of adornment named cursed?
* a -1 ring of gain strength
* an uncursed ring of invisibility
* an uncursed ring of poison resistance

* a wand of make invisible (0:2)
* a wand of speed monster
* a wand of speed monster (0:5)
* a wand of undead turning (0:3)

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.

"My father used to claim that he heard god on numerous occasions. He
would ask god questions and keep a record of the answers, and at the end
of the year he would do a chi-square analysis to find out whether god had
been right more often than chance would lead one to expect." -- Pat Bowne

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:15:49 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

>After my last, rather promising Healer met the Dread Lord YASD
>mimicing a brown mold corpse (moral: don't eat while satiated),

The cunning Vast Hunk O'Meat(TM) silently stalks its prey
through the dungeon, savagely leaping with lightning speed for
the kill.

It's not pretty, but it's all part of the food chain.

>I
>decided to try a Valk instead, as I wanted a break from wimpy
>early-game characters and everyone kept saying Valks are so easy.
>
>Well, it seems there's some truth to that, as this is the farthest
>I've ever got without dying. Which isn't that far, really, but
>anyway. I think this character just might ascend some day. Maybe.

Good work.

>
>Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
>Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480

Looks pretty good. Remember to keep working hard on improving
your equipment, especially your AC. Keep track of the second-
best armor you've found for use after rust monster encounters.
(Isn't that something pleasant to look forward to. ;^)


>
>Anyway, this game has been somewhat odd. One thing I haven't been
>able to find, despite much searching, is a bag. Really. Not a single
>bag so far. I did Sokoban (the first time ever, for me) just for the
>sake of finding a bag of holding, but noooo... of course it had to be
>a bloody amulet of reflection.


Reflection can keep your character alive for further playing.
A blessed bag of holding can keep you interested in playing your
character further.

>
>Which would be fine, if the first amulet I'd found, in a shop on Dlvl
>2, hadn't also been reflection. So now I have two "s of reflection,
>which I supposed is nice enough,

If you ever a get pet that will pick up and wear items, try
giving your spare amulet of reflection to it.

>but I'm getting really sick of "Your knapsack cannot accommodate any
>more items"!

If you're going to have problems (and you are. This is NetHack
after all. 🙂 this is the kind of problem to have.


>
>The good side to this is that it has forced me to learn to keep
>stashes. The bad side is that it has forced me to keep stashes, and
>now my stuff is scattered is piles and boxes all around the dungeon.
>

Well done, actually.

>Altars have also been nearly as scarce as bags; the only one I've
>found is the one in Minetown.

That's the only altar you're guarenteed to get before the
Quest/Gehennom. Looks like a good place to consolidate your
stashes.

>It was lawful, but I finally went and
>converted it, since I really wanted some holy water, and zapped the
>priest. This got me my protection money back, but unfortunately also
>cost me telepathy, which I rather miss.

Boldly done.

>I do have a ring of warning, which almost makes up for it.

Warning shows all (dangerous?) monsters and you don't have to
be blind to make effective use of it.

>I spent some time on the early levels
>looking for floating eyes, but all I got was hungry. So for now I'm
>just hoping I'll bump into one eventually.

I really hope you don't regret saying that. 🙂

>
>The game has also been full of c(o|hi)ckatrices. Only one hiss so
>far, though, and I luckily had a lizard handy.

Throw rocks if you've nothing else to use as a ranged weapon.

>No gloves to be seen, of course.

The Mine Town guard usually has some. You're out of telepathy
anyway, right? Just be very careful not to get swarmed. A
couple of pet big cats/dogs will usually let you have the gloves
after they finish playing with them.

Having a couple of big pets will also get every last piece of
armor in the Mines, whether worn by peacefuls or not. And that's
not including death drops.

>I've got a pair of eggs in a stash that I'm somewhat
>suspicious about, but haven't id'd them yet.
>
>An early bump with a poly trap left me feeling like a new woman, and
>also dumb and ugly (int 8, cha 8). Strangely, I couldn't find the
>trap again -- do poly traps vanish?

Only after they poly the player. They'll happily poly any
other monsters around over and over again.


>The low int has somewhat hindered
>my spellcasting efforts, but I do have magic missile, jumping, healing
>and sleep, and I also have plenty of un-id'd books stashed around.
>
This is the downside to the "thinking optional" role. Thinking
isn't really even that much of an option.

There are ways to increase Int. Learn them if you like. But
even 25 Int won't turn a Valkyrie into a Wizard equivalent. The
Valkyrie class limits character spellcasting a lot all by itself.
A big part of that limit is lack of Pw.

Armor can both help and hurt spellcasting.


>I'm somewhat uncommitted about my armor choice right now. I have +0
>dwarvish mithril, which gives me AC -11 but also 100% spell failure.
>The other choice is +0 leather, which is plentiful thanks to golems,
>weighs the same, gives me AC -7 and lets me cast spells. No studded
>leather so far. I've also found a crystal plate mail, which would
>give both excellent AC and spellcasting, but weighs a ton. I've also
>got a robe from the priest, though I still need to uncurse it.


Many (most?) Valkyries are played entirely without
spellcasting. If you feel you must cast spells, don't do it in
melee combat until your spellfriendly AC is as good as
your spell-hostile AC.

Cast spells somewhere you can take off spell-hostile armor
safely. Many spells aren't best used in combat anyway.

Crystal plate mail is there to frustrate would-be spellcasters
of all kinds. Although I have used it effectively with very
early wizards by dumping almost everything but armor, weapons,
and food.

>
>Otherwise, things have been pretty good. I have a blessed magic
>marker, a unihorn from Sokoban (and one live gray unicorn left, so I
>can come back with some gems), some useful rings, decent armor, enough
>lizards and lembas to survive, etc. I've got intrinsic sleep and
>poison resistance, invisibility and (I think) speed. My luck is
>probably at 0, but a visit to Mines' End and then Sokoban should help
>with that.

I'd say you were doing fine to this point. That amulet of
reflection can save your life many times, and cause gnomes
with wands of lightning/fire/death to reflect on their
transgressions.

>
>So, any ideas on finding a bag and maybe gloves too?

There are supposed to be tools generated on every(?) level of
the Gnomish Mines so there's still hope of finding a bag on the
floor.

See above about getting clothing donations from the Minetown
guards. They're your best bet for gloves.

If you're mostly concerned about cockatrices, you should be.
🙂 Fort Ludious, a soldiers barracks, etc. are also good
possibilities.

Remember that even cursed/burnt/rotted gloves will protect you.
Whether unremoveable -3 gauntlets of Fumbling is worth the risk
is up to you.


>Or any generic survival help?

<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/msg/516b0b28b6267c58?dmode=source&hl=en>

Try on every non-cursed piece of armor. A +4 enchantment on a
coarse mantlet can be polymorphed if nothing else.

Accessories (shields, boots, helms, gloves) are your best bet
for improved enchantment, since there tend to be more of them.

The same total AC but with higher enchantment is usually
lighter and fewer of the AC points can be lost to rotting/
rusting/burning, etc. (This will change in the mid to late
game.)

This is from my current game after getting the luckstone.
Armor
A - a blessed +2 leather armor (being worn)
B - a blessed greased +4 pair of iron shoes (being worn)
C - an uncursed greased +0 cloak of magic resistance (being
worn)
G - an uncursed burnt +3 pair of leather gloves (being worn)
S - an uncursed greased +3 small shield (being worn)
W - an uncursed greased +5 orcish helm (being worn)

All of it besides the CoMR was found: no wishing, no ?oEA, no
polying. And there's a +4 pair of gloves in reserve awaiting
foo-proofing (if I don't get something better 🙂.

This is a bit of an exceptional game, but shows what bloody
minded determination can do.

>
>(Here's my inventory and selected stuff from stashes, just to make
>this already long post longer.)
>
> Amulets
> j - an uncursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
> v - an uncursed amulet of reflection
> Weapons
> a - a rustproof +1 long sword (weapon in hand)
> b - the +3 Sting (alternate weapon; not wielded)
> F - 3 +0 elven daggers
> W - 9 uncursed orcish daggers

Plain daggers are slightly better against small monsters
than orcish. Elven slightly better than plain daggers ditto.

Nine is plenty for a throwing dagger stack. Stash the elven
dagger stack until you've got 6/7, then swap them for the orcish
daggers.

Getting to expert dagger skill is perfect for wizards, and
flinging up to three at a time will really soften up an
approaching monster. They work well against a charging Mine
Town guard.

I don't think you can go too far wrong #enhancing dagger skill.


> c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)

This should probably not have been further enchanted. Small
shields are the only spell-friendly shields, and even so they
can badly affect even an early wizard's spellcasting.

Giving Valkyies a starting +3 small shield is almost pure
cruelty on the part of the DevTeam. Although they may be
thinking of helping wizards by have +3 small shields available
in bones files.

Valks should probably twoweapon, although a silver shield
isn't out of the question.

Enchanting the small shield isn't a big mistake by any means.
It shows emphasis on survival *now*, which is necessary for
survival in the long run. 🙂

> t - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
> H - an uncursed greased +1 pair of high boots (being worn)
> P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)

Keep trying on other cloaks for enchantment/protection.
You may find enchanted elven boots or a ring of stealth.



> * a wand of undead turning (0:3)

This can improve your chances of dragon scales.
How long to hold out for the ideal dragon type is up
to you.


Again, I think you're doing very well. Don't get fixated on
anything except surviving.


Keep improving your armor because the dungeon will keep
improving its monsters. And AC is one of the few critical items
the player has some control over.

Don't regret any "mistakes" you think you may have made. The
only real mistake is ending the game by character death. It's
better to use items *now* in the early game to survive than to
save them for some theoretical better use later.

If your character must die, have it die on a heap of exhausted
wands, scraps of scrolls, and empty potion bottles while cursing
her god for not helping more.

Good luck.


All the best,

Jove

--
"I don't think you actually meant to condemn such practices,
which are probably those of any professional user. But the words
you used did." - "kanze" <kanze@gabi-soft.fr>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In article <slrndi8f0l.4kh.usenet@boojum.home.vyznev.net>, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> says...
> After my last, rather promising Healer met the Dread Lord YASD
> mimicing a brown mold corpse (moral: don't eat while satiated), I
> decided to try a Valk instead, as I wanted a break from wimpy
> early-game characters and everyone kept saying Valks are so easy.
>
> Well, it seems there's some truth to that, as this is the farthest
> I've ever got without dying. Which isn't that far, really, but
> anyway. I think this character just might ascend some day. Maybe.
>
> Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
> Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480
>
> Anyway, this game has been somewhat odd. One thing I haven't been
> able to find, despite much searching, is a bag.
>
My current character got all the way down to the Castle (including Sokoban
and the mines, but not the quest) without finding a bag. Fortunately an elf
spawning on an explored level dropped a sack, and I polypiled for oilskin
sack and BoH.

You *could* try carrying around a large box, although they are rather
heavy.

Further to what Jove has said, I've adopted the strategy of not going on
the Quest until I've cleared out the Dungeons down to Medusa, got an AC of
-20 or less, reflection, magic resistance, all intrinsic resistances, a
highly enchanted artifact weapon, and assorted emergency wands and potions.
The Quest nemesis is AFAICS more dangerous than anything until Medusa and
the Castle.

 

[seraphim]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Ilmari Karonen <usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote in
news:slrndi8f0l.4kh.usenet@boojum.home.vyznev.net:

>
> Anyway, this game has been somewhat odd. One thing I haven't been
> able to find, despite much searching, is a bag. Really. Not a
> single bag so far. I did Sokoban (the first time ever, for me) just
> for the sake of finding a bag of holding, but noooo... of course it
> had to be a bloody amulet of reflection.

Keep a stash somewhere. I would recomend using a chest or large box.

> I'm somewhat uncommitted about my armor choice right now. I have +0
> dwarvish mithril, which gives me AC -11 but also 100% spell failure.
> The other choice is +0 leather, which is plentiful thanks to golems,
> weighs the same, gives me AC -7 and lets me cast spells. No studded
> leather so far. I've also found a crystal plate mail, which would
> give both excellent AC and spellcasting, but weighs a ton. I've also
> got a robe from the priest, though I still need to uncurse it.

Go with the mithril. A valk doesn't need to worry about casting spells.

> The good side to this is that it has forced me to learn to keep
> stashes. The bad side is that it has forced me to keep stashes, and
> now my stuff is scattered is piles and boxes all around the dungeon.
> So, any ideas on finding a bag and maybe gloves too? Or any generic
> survival help?

You'll need to learn how to keep stashes sometime, and this'll help
your good characters in the future survive.

> (Here's my inventory and selected stuff from stashes, just to make
> this already long post longer.)
>
> Amulets
> j - an uncursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
> v - an uncursed amulet of reflection

There is no reason to carry two of these around. You can only wear
one.

> Weapons
> a - a rustproof +1 long sword (weapon in hand)
> b - the +3 Sting (alternate weapon; not wielded)
> F - 3 +0 elven daggers
> W - 9 uncursed orcish daggers
> Armor
> c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
> t - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
> H - an uncursed greased +1 pair of high boots (being worn)
> P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)
> Q - an uncursed +0 mummy wrapping

Are you invisible?

> Comestibles
> l - a lembas wafer
> y - 2 uncursed lembas wafers
> N - 5 uncursed lizard corpses

What are you going to do with 5 lizard corpses? You could save weight
by droping some.

> Scrolls
> L - an uncursed scroll of stinking cloud
> Z - an uncursed scroll of punishment

The scroll of punishment isn't of much use, is it?

> Spellbooks
> C - an uncursed parchment spellbook
> D - an uncursed stained spellbook

Not very useful to a Valk.

> Potions
> x - an uncursed potion called fruit juice
> B - an uncursed emerald potion
> J - a cursed sky blue potion
> M - an uncursed murky potion

You should price-ID these to try and figure out what they are. They
are also heavy so get rid of the ones you don't need right away.

> Rings
> e - an uncursed ring of see invisible (on right hand)
> h - an uncursed ring of polymorph control
> k - a blessed +1 ring of adornment
> o - an uncursed ring of warning (on left hand)
> E - an uncursed ring of levitation
> G - an uncursed ring of sustain ability

I'd ditch the ring of adornment.
I also wonder if you really need levitation at this point.

> Wands
> g - an uncursed wand of magic missile
> i - a wand of digging (0:5)
> m - a wand of fire (0:3)
> s - an uncursed wand of lightning
> u - an uncursed wand of create monster
> I - an uncursed wand of cold
> V - a wand of teleportation
> Y - an uncursed wand of digging

You'll likely only use one wand of digging at a time. I also wonder if
you're going to use the wand of create monster in the near future.

> Tools
> f - an uncursed unicorn horn
> w - an uncursed tin whistle
> K - a blessed magic marker (0:39)
> O - an uncursed leash
> R - an uncursed skeleton key
> S - an uncursed brass lantern
> T - an uncursed towel
> U - an uncursed mirror

Do you need he lantern and mirror?
I also wonder if you need the whistle, leash, and marker.

> Things that are here:
> 5 uncursed scrolls of blank paper
> a blessed scroll of magic mapping
> an uncursed scroll of create monster
> an uncursed scroll of taming
> 3 uncursed scrolls of teleportation

You might want the scrolls of teleport.

> [Snip long list]
>
> * a wand of make invisible (0:2)
> * a wand of speed monster
> * a wand of speed monster (0:5)
> * a wand of undead turning (0:3)

Did you zap yourself with the wand of speed monster?

 

[ANON]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Ilmari Karonen <usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

> Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
> Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480

With only 8 Int, you're not gonna be able to do any spellcasting for a
while (if ever), so I would make that a low priority for now. Your focus
right now should be weapons and armor - I assume you'll be getting
Mjollnir soon, so I would spend that magic marker on some blessed ?oEAs
or ?oEWs. Unfortunately, you lost your source of protection, so you
probably won't be able to raise your AC much more until the next priest
in VotD; on the other hand, your current AC should tide you over until
then, and at least you won't have to carry around all that gold either.
In fact, I would stash pretty much everything valuable that you're
carrying except the emergency stuff, because the real problem of having
no bag isn't so much clutter but risk of inventory damage, i.e. from
fire traps and land mines.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:04:26 GMT, Andrew Kerr
<andykerr@SPAMGUARD.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <slrndi8f0l.4kh.usenet@boojum.home.vyznev.net>, Ilmari Karonen
><usenet@vyznev.invalid> says...
>> After my last, rather promising Healer met the Dread Lord YASD
>> mimicing a brown mold corpse (moral: don't eat while satiated), I
>> decided to try a Valk instead, as I wanted a break from wimpy
>> early-game characters and everyone kept saying Valks are so easy.
>>
>> Well, it seems there's some truth to that, as this is the farthest
>> I've ever got without dying. Which isn't that far, really, but
>> anyway. I think this character just might ascend some day. Maybe.
>>
>> Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
>> Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480
>>
>> Anyway, this game has been somewhat odd. One thing I haven't been
>> able to find, despite much searching, is a bag.
>>
>My current character got all the way down to the Castle (including Sokoban
>and the mines, but not the quest) without finding a bag. Fortunately an elf
>spawning on an explored level dropped a sack, and I polypiled for oilskin
>sack and BoH.

By the time of my first ascension I was so frustrated with
blowing up bags of holding that I'd sworn off them. So I didn't
get one until I used a wish at Vlad's.

>
>You *could* try carrying around a large box, although they are rather
>heavy.
>
>Further to what Jove has said, I've adopted the strategy of not going on
>the Quest until I've cleared out the Dungeons down to Medusa, got an AC of
>-20 or less, reflection, magic resistance, all intrinsic resistances, a
>highly enchanted artifact weapon, and assorted emergency wands and potions.
>The Quest nemesis is AFAICS more dangerous than anything until Medusa and
>the Castle.

Excellent general advice. (They're also good things to do
while trying to progress until your character qualifies for the
Quest.)

I can only add one final minor tweak: Take a peek into the
Quest Home level and see what you can see. Be ready to leave
immediately if it's too tough. Just like any new level, really.


Thanks for backup, Andrew.



--
All the best,

Jove

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 18:19:39 +0000 (UTC), Seraphim
<gme6@cornell.edu> wrote:

>Ilmari Karonen <usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote in
>news:slrndi8f0l.4kh.usenet@boojum.home.vyznev.net:
>
>
<Much good advice snipped.>

>
>> (Here's my inventory and selected stuff from stashes, just to make
>> this already long post longer.)
>>
>> Amulets
>> j - an uncursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
>> v - an uncursed amulet of reflection
>
>There is no reason to carry two of these around. You can only wear
>one.

Dead right.

>
>> Weapons
>> a - a rustproof +1 long sword (weapon in hand)
>> b - the +3 Sting (alternate weapon; not wielded)
>> F - 3 +0 elven daggers
>> W - 9 uncursed orcish daggers
>> Armor
>> c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
>> t - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
>> H - an uncursed greased +1 pair of high boots (being worn)
>> P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)
>> Q - an uncursed +0 mummy wrapping
>
>Are you invisible?

I do believe he mentioned he was, along with being fast.

>
>> Comestibles
>> l - a lembas wafer
>> y - 2 uncursed lembas wafers
>> N - 5 uncursed lizard corpses
>
>What are you going to do with 5 lizard corpses? You could save weight
>by droping some.

Paranoia, it looks like. He doesn't have any gloves and is
worried about cockatrices. I know lizards won't help if he
touches a cockatrice barehanded, but I've carried that many
lizards around even when I have gloves. You can't be too
careful. 🙂

Seriously, dropping two should be completely safe.

>
>> Scrolls
>> L - an uncursed scroll of stinking cloud
>> Z - an uncursed scroll of punishment
>
>The scroll of punishment isn't of much use, is it?

Yeah, stash it.

>
>> Spellbooks
>> C - an uncursed parchment spellbook
>> D - an uncursed stained spellbook
>
>Not very useful to a Valk.

Someone pointed out that some native merchants will
exchange curiously heavy shiny metal for these collections
of paper.

>
>> Potions
>> x - an uncursed potion called fruit juice
>> B - an uncursed emerald potion
>> J - a cursed sky blue potion
>> M - an uncursed murky potion
>
>You should price-ID these to try and figure out what they are. They
>are also heavy so get rid of the ones you don't need right away.

Well, stash the ones you don't need.

>
>> Rings
>> e - an uncursed ring of see invisible (on right hand)
>> h - an uncursed ring of polymorph control
>> k - a blessed +1 ring of adornment
>> o - an uncursed ring of warning (on left hand)
>> E - an uncursed ring of levitation
>> G - an uncursed ring of sustain ability
>
>I'd ditch the ring of adornment.
>I also wonder if you really need levitation at this point.

Also good. And if he's about to descend below Mine Town
the ring of poly control might be better used on a finger.

The ring of see invisible is useful, but can be put on when
necessary.

Come to think of it. the ring of warning might make the
ring of see invisible redundant anyway.

>> Wands
>> g - an uncursed wand of magic missile
>> i - a wand of digging (0:5)
>> m - a wand of fire (0:3)
>> s - an uncursed wand of lightning
>> u - an uncursed wand of create monster
>> I - an uncursed wand of cold
>> V - a wand of teleportation
>> Y - an uncursed wand of digging
>
>You'll likely only use one wand of digging at a time. I also wonder if
>you're going to use the wand of create monster in the near future.
>
>> Tools
>> f - an uncursed unicorn horn
>> w - an uncursed tin whistle
>> K - a blessed magic marker (0:39)
>> O - an uncursed leash
>> R - an uncursed skeleton key
>> S - an uncursed brass lantern
>> T - an uncursed towel
>> U - an uncursed mirror
>
>Do you need he lantern and mirror?
>I also wonder if you need the whistle, leash, and marker.

Therefore stash all but the lantern. If he's about to
go for the luckstone (and I believe he is) then the lantern
is well worth taking.

Without info on the (possible) pet situation, the leash
may or may not be a good idea.

>
>> Things that are here:
>> 5 uncursed scrolls of blank paper
>> a blessed scroll of magic mapping
>> an uncursed scroll of create monster
>> an uncursed scroll of taming
>> 3 uncursed scrolls of teleportation
>
>You might want the scrolls of teleport.

The scroll of taming can change (a) vicious slavering hostile
monster(s) into your best friend(s).

A scroll of taming once gave me a pet leocrotta, instead of
near-certain death. Pet leocrottas are very fast, do a lot of
damage and just seem so cheerful as they bounce around you. 🙂


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 11.09.2005:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:15:49 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
><usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
>>Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480
>
> Looks pretty good. Remember to keep working hard on improving
> your equipment, especially your AC. Keep track of the second-
> best armor you've found for use after rust monster encounters.
> (Isn't that something pleasant to look forward to. ;^)

I've met a couple of rust monsters already. So far they've been easy.
Too easy, maybe -- I'm worried I might get overconfident. But I sure
am glad I decided to rustproof my sword and grease my armor.

>>Which would be fine, if the first amulet I'd found, in a shop on Dlvl
>>2, hadn't also been reflection. So now I have two "s of reflection,
>>which I supposed is nice enough,
>
> If you ever a get pet that will pick up and wear items, try
> giving your spare amulet of reflection to it.

Good idea. For now I'll carry it around as a backup; I've had the one
I'm wearing stolen by a nymph once already. Was a real nuisance
tracking her down without telepathy. Fortunately my dog got to her
first, so all I found was a pile of junk with my amulet in it.

>>I do have a ring of warning, which almost makes up for it.
>
> Warning shows all (dangerous?) monsters and you don't have to
> be blind to make effective use of it.

Yep. Doesn't show my pet though, which is annoying. And it can't be
used to scout a level, since it has a limited range and doesn't show
what the monsters are.

>>I spent some time on the early levels
>>looking for floating eyes, but all I got was hungry. So for now I'm
>>just hoping I'll bump into one eventually.
>
> I really hope you don't regret saying that. 🙂

I see what you mean (pun not intended). I _usually_ don't type that
carelessly. Haven't ever been accidentally frozen, so far..

>>No gloves to be seen, of course.
>
> The Mine Town guard usually has some. You're out of telepathy
> anyway, right? Just be very careful not to get swarmed. A
> couple of pet big cats/dogs will usually let you have the gloves
> after they finish playing with them.

Hey, you're right! Why didn't I think of that? Clear Minetown first,
_then_ look for floating eye. Of course!

> Many (most?) Valkyries are played entirely without
> spellcasting. If you feel you must cast spells, don't do it in
> melee combat until your spellfriendly AC is as good as
> your spell-hostile AC.
>
> Cast spells somewhere you can take off spell-hostile armor
> safely. Many spells aren't best used in combat anyway.

That's what I've mostly been doing. Magic missile and "oR is a really
powerful combo, though. Wands have the same effect, of course, but
use up charges. It helps that I'm invisible, fast and stealthy, so I
can often run circles around lone monsters. (I do tend to assume
monsters can see me unless proven otherwise. You never know...)

I've been using mm and jumping whenever I have some Pw and it's safe
to take my mitril coat off, in the hopes of being able to advance
those schools. Will take a while yet, I expect. I've also found
jumping to be a good way to burn off some calories before dining on
giants, for example.

> There are supposed to be tools generated on every(?) level of
> the Gnomish Mines so there's still hope of finding a bag on the
> floor.

Yeah, I'll keep my fingers crossed. So far all I've found is lanterns
and leashes and lockpicks.

Come to think of it, a wand of polymorph would be really nice. I
understand spare unihorns are good for polypiling...

Or why not a wand of wishing too, while we're at it? ;-)

> Try on every non-cursed piece of armor. A +4 enchantment on a
> coarse mantlet can be polymorphed if nothing else.

I'm doing that already -- where do you think I got that +3 elven
leather helm? Though not for everything, just stuff I might use. If
I ever find a wand of poly I'll make sure to check all those orcish
helms for enchantment.

> Nine is plenty for a throwing dagger stack. Stash the elven
> dagger stack until you've got 6/7, then swap them for the orcish
> daggers.

Hmm, maybe you're right. I've been afraid of running out of daggers,
so I've carried my early stacks of 3x elven and 3x normal daggers in
addition to the orcish ones, plus any extra elven daggers I've found.

The problem is that I've had to keep dropping those when I run out of
inventory slots, so I've never managed to collect them in a proper
stash. I know there are plenty of elven daggers lying around in the
dungeon; the problem is they're rather a mixed lot, and refuse to
stack. I should gather them together somehow and get them all id'd or
even cancelled so they'd stack properly. Having that bag would make
this task a lot easier... sigh.

> Getting to expert dagger skill is perfect for wizards, and
> flinging up to three at a time will really soften up an
> approaching monster. They work well against a charging Mine
> Town guard.

Yup, already there. Long sword is at skilled currently; I've been
saving those skill slots as per recent discussion here, but maybe I
should just go ahead and advance now for immediate gain, and worry
about skill slots later.

> I don't think you can go too far wrong #enhancing dagger skill.

Me neither.

> Enchanting the small shield isn't a big mistake by any means.
> It shows emphasis on survival *now*, which is necessary for
> survival in the long run. 🙂

Yup. At the time I read that scroll, it was a choice between using it
or saving it for possible later use in a rather incovenient location I
might or might not get a chance to revisit. (Damn inventory slots,
again!) I guessed, correctly, that the shield was the one part of my
armor that wasn't going to get swapped for something better soon.

>> t - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
>> H - an uncursed greased +1 pair of high boots (being worn)
>> P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)
>
> Keep trying on other cloaks for enchantment/protection.
> You may find enchanted elven boots or a ring of stealth.

I picked the elven cloak for MC 3, and haven't looked back. Now that
I have mithril armor and the robe it's not _that_ essential anymore,
but I think I'll keep that cloak until something better shows up.

>> * a wand of undead turning (0:3)
>
> This can improve your chances of dragon scales.
> How long to hold out for the ideal dragon type is up
> to you.

Need to find some dragons first. And beef myself up to the point
where I can face them. I _am_ planning to save that wand for just
that purpose, since I see little other use for it.

> Again, I think you're doing very well. Don't get fixated on
> anything except surviving.
>
> Keep improving your armor because the dungeon will keep
> improving its monsters. And AC is one of the few critical items
> the player has some control over.

Good advice. I'll try to follow it.

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.

"My father used to claim that he heard god on numerous occasions. He
would ask god questions and keep a record of the answers, and at the end
of the year he would do a chi-square analysis to find out whether god had
been right more often than chance would lead one to expect." -- Pat Bowne

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Jove wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:15:49 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
> <usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
>
>
> This should probably not have been further enchanted. Small
> shields are the only spell-friendly shields, and even so they
> can badly affect even an early wizard's spellcasting.
>
> Giving Valkyies a starting +3 small shield is almost pure
> cruelty on the part of the DevTeam. Although they may be
> thinking of helping wizards by have +3 small shields available
> in bones files.

You kidding? That small shield is one of the things that makes
valkyries the easiest class. It provides about the same protection as
the starting armor the other wombat classes get, but it's light and it
stacks with good body armor once you find some. And it's better than
most shields that you'll find in the dungeon... while it's not uncommon
to find dwarvish round shields in +2, they're a lot heavier.

My barbarians and samurai ditch their starting armor the moment
they find a mithril-coat. My valks stack the shield on top of the
mithril-coat for several extra points of AC, and tend to keep using that
shield right up until they switch to two-weaponing.

> Valks should probably twoweapon, although a silver shield
> isn't out of the question.

Anyone who can should two-weapon, but not at the beginning of
the game. Wait 'til you get your luck, level, and weapons skills up a
bit so you can actually *hit* things while two-weaponing. My valks
usually switch over around the Castle, when they get the wand so they
can fill any holes necessary to reconfigure their gear. Most of my other
two-weapon-capable classes switch earlier.

The silver shield is the one that I'd call pure cruelty by the
devteam... by the mid-to-late game when you usually get your hands on
them, most every class should be either two-weaponing or casting (or in
some cases - Knights in particular - both), and using a shield of
reflection destroys both abilities. Cavemen and Rangers are the
exceptions (and the latter can get reflection from their Quest Artifact,
anyway).

> Enchanting the small shield isn't a big mistake by any means.
> It shows emphasis on survival *now*, which is necessary for
> survival in the long run. 🙂

Until I start getting armor that I'm going to still be wearing
when I offer the Amulet up on Odin's high altar, the small shield is my
first enchantment target... I'll ditch it eventually, but the hefty
enchantment it's already got means that I probably won't find anything
better to replace it with before I ditch shields completely so I can
two-weapon. Sadly, it can only take one enchanting.


>>P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)
>
> Keep trying on other cloaks for enchantment/protection.
> You may find enchanted elven boots or a ring of stealth.

Valks start with intrinsic stealth. There's no point in looking
for external sources.

--
John Campbell
jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:30:54 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 11.09.2005:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:15:49 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
>><usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
>>>Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480
>>
>> Looks pretty good. Remember to keep working hard on improving
>> your equipment, especially your AC. Keep track of the second-
>> best armor you've found for use after rust monster encounters.
>> (Isn't that something pleasant to look forward to. ;^)
>
>I've met a couple of rust monsters already. So far they've been easy.
>Too easy, maybe -- I'm worried I might get overconfident. But I sure
>am glad I decided to rustproof my sword and grease my armor.

Good for you. Finding a can of grease isn't guaranteed.
You're preparing better than I'd hoped (better than a worst-case
scenario, anyway ;-).

Preparation before the execrement hits the rotating windmill is
the secret. And you're doing a much better job than I ever did,
or do, for that matter.


>
>>>Which would be fine, if the first amulet I'd found, in a shop on Dlvl
>>>2, hadn't also been reflection. So now I have two "s of reflection,
>>>which I supposed is nice enough,
>>
>> If you ever a get pet that will pick up and wear items, try
>> giving your spare amulet of reflection to it.
>
>Good idea. For now I'll carry it around as a backup; I've had the one
>I'm wearing stolen by a nymph once already.

Whoa, you are handling things well. Didn't kill yourself with
reflected wand rays, either.

>Was a real nuisance tracking her down without telepathy.

Even tougher if you didn't have a light source yet. I've quit
before when a nymph has stripped my poor starting wizards.
(Must remember to endeavor to persevere.)

>Fortunately my dog got to her first, so all I found was a
>pile of junk with my amulet in it.

Good doggie! It's a wonderful feeling when Fido sits by the
pile of stolen loot, wagging his tail with a half-guilty look
in case he did the wrong thing.

You are using pets, good.

>
>>>I do have a ring of warning, which almost makes up for it.
>>
>> Warning shows all (dangerous?) monsters and you don't have to
>> be blind to make effective use of it.
>
>Yep. Doesn't show my pet though, which is annoying. And it can't be
>used to scout a level, since it has a limited range and doesn't show
>what the monsters are.

You make good use of telepathy.

>
>>>I spent some time on the early levels
>>>looking for floating eyes, but all I got was hungry. So for now I'm
>>>just hoping I'll bump into one eventually.
>>
>> I really hope you don't regret saying that. 🙂
>
>I see what you mean (pun not intended). I _usually_ don't type that
>carelessly. Haven't ever been accidentally frozen, so far..

Reflection protects you from being frozen by them. Still,
there are posts where someone relied on their SDSM, but
didn't put it back on after a foocubus encounter....

>
>>>No gloves to be seen, of course.
>>
>> The Mine Town guard usually has some. You're out of telepathy
>> anyway, right? Just be very careful not to get swarmed. A
>> couple of pet big cats/dogs will usually let you have the gloves
>> after they finish playing with them.
>
>Hey, you're right! Why didn't I think of that? Clear Minetown first,
>_then_ look for floating eye. Of course!

I *think* I read that idea on rgrn, but I couldn't say who
suggested it. (When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. 🙂


>
>> Many (most?) Valkyries are played entirely without
>> spellcasting. If you feel you must cast spells, don't do it in
>> melee combat until your spellfriendly AC is as good as
>> your spell-hostile AC.
>>
>> Cast spells somewhere you can take off spell-hostile armor
>> safely. Many spells aren't best used in combat anyway.
>
>That's what I've mostly been doing. Magic missile and "oR is a really
>powerful combo, though. Wands have the same effect, of course, but
>use up charges. It helps that I'm invisible, fast and stealthy, so I
>can often run circles around lone monsters. (I do tend to assume
>monsters can see me unless proven otherwise. You never know...)

Nice combination of fairly advanced techniques, and nicely
done. (Have you ever tried displacement?)

And this being Nethack, eventually monsters will see you.
You've a long way to go. ("Well begun, half done. Half done,
just begun.")

Very nice to see you're ahead of me on all this. (I'm a
Wiz-Hum-Cha specialist, but I've also ascended a Valk, a Rogue
and a Priest.)

>
>I've been using mm and jumping whenever I have some Pw and it's safe
>to take my mitril coat off, in the hopes of being able to advance
>those schools. Will take a while yet, I expect.

Very well done indeed. Keep an eye out for jumping boots.
I had some in a early game and jumped rings around a nymph,
hitting her with daggers. She didn't pick them up. So when
I ran out I lured her away, jumped past, picked them up and
finished her off.

I'm a big fan of jumping for traveling fast. It also has
many other specialized uses. (Like jumping *out* of a pit. ;-)

I don't remember what spells schools Valks can advance in.
Be interesting to see what happens.I've also found

>jumping to be a good way to burn off some calories before dining on
>giants, for example.

And after, of course.

>
>> There are supposed to be tools generated on every(?) level of
>> the Gnomish Mines so there's still hope of finding a bag on the
>> floor.
>
>Yeah, I'll keep my fingers crossed. So far all I've found is lanterns
>and leashes and lockpicks.
>
>Come to think of it, a wand of polymorph would be really nice. I
>understand spare unihorns are good for polypiling...
>

You're really no beginner at this, are you.


>Or why not a wand of wishing too, while we're at it? ;-)

Because wands of polymorph are more likely, of course. :-D

And wands of wishing do happen. I remember picking up a wand
and for no reason thinking it might be a wand of wishing...and it
was.

>
>> Try on every non-cursed piece of armor. A +4 enchantment on a
>> coarse mantlet can be polymorphed if nothing else.
>
>I'm doing that already -- where do you think I got that +3 elven
>leather helm? Though not for everything, just stuff I might use. If
>I ever find a wand of poly I'll make sure to check all those orcish
>helms for enchantment.

More good work. And a +3 elven leather helm is very nice.
But better AC in battle can easily become more important
than spell casting.

>
>> Nine is plenty for a throwing dagger stack. Stash the elven
>> dagger stack until you've got 6/7, then swap them for the orcish
>> daggers.
>
>Hmm, maybe you're right. I've been afraid of running out of daggers,
>so I've carried my early stacks of 3x elven and 3x normal daggers in
>addition to the orcish ones, plus any extra elven daggers I've found.

And with your ability to jump, maybe you can do the evade and
reload trick I described earlier.

(In my foolish youth I once wielded all my daggers as one
stack. Twelve of them. ;^)

>
>The problem is that I've had to keep dropping those when I run out of
>inventory slots, so I've never managed to collect them in a proper
>stash. I know there are plenty of elven daggers lying around in the
>dungeon; the problem is they're rather a mixed lot, and refuse to
>stack. I should gather them together somehow and get them all id'd or
>even cancelled so they'd stack properly. Having that bag would make
>this task a lot easier... sigh.

Practice patience. After the luckstone spend time
consolidating everything at Mine Town (if a better place doesn't
show up.) It's possible to appreciate the process of adding
a bunch of disparate stashes together.



>
>> I don't think you can go too far wrong #enhancing dagger skill.
>
>Me neither.
>
>> Enchanting the small shield isn't a big mistake by any means.
>> It shows emphasis on survival *now*, which is necessary for
>> survival in the long run. 🙂
>
>Yup. At the time I read that scroll, it was a choice between using it
>or saving it for possible later use in a rather incovenient location I
>might or might not get a chance to revisit. (Damn inventory slots,
>again!) I guessed, correctly, that the shield was the one part of my
>armor that wasn't going to get swapped for something better soon.

Well, playing a Valk even as a partial spell caster is helped a
lot by that small shield.

>
>>> t - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
>>> H - an uncursed greased +1 pair of high boots (being worn)
>>> P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)
>>
>> Keep trying on other cloaks for enchantment/protection.
>> You may find enchanted elven boots or a ring of stealth.
>
>I picked the elven cloak for MC 3, and haven't looked back. Now that
>I have mithril armor and the robe it's not _that_ essential anymore,
>but I think I'll keep that cloak until something better shows up.

Isn't it your source of stealth? (To complement your
invisibility.)

>
>>> * a wand of undead turning (0:3)
>>
>> This can improve your chances of dragon scales.
>> How long to hold out for the ideal dragon type is up
>> to you.
>
>Need to find some dragons first. And beef myself up to the point
>where I can face them. I _am_ planning to save that wand for just
>that purpose, since I see little other use for it.

You didn't need help, you wanted reassurance. ;^D

>
>> Again, I think you're doing very well. Don't get fixated on
>> anything except surviving.
>>
>> Keep improving your armor because the dungeon will keep
>> improving its monsters. And AC is one of the few critical items
>> the player has some control over.
>
>Good advice. I'll try to follow it.

I think maybe I should be asking you for advice. 🙂


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 22:32:21 GMT, John Campbell
<jcampbel@lynn.ci-n.com> wrote:

>Jove wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 17:15:49 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
>> <usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:
> >>
>>>c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
>>
>>
>> This should probably not have been further enchanted. Small
>> shields are the only spell-friendly shields, and even so they
>> can badly affect even an early wizard's spellcasting.
>>
>> Giving Valkyies a starting +3 small shield is almost pure
>> cruelty on the part of the DevTeam. Although they may be
>> thinking of helping wizards by have +3 small shields available
>> in bones files.
>
> You kidding? That small shield is one of the things that makes
>valkyries the easiest class. It provides about the same protection as
>the starting armor the other wombat classes get, but it's light and it
>stacks with good body armor once you find some. And it's better than
>most shields that you'll find in the dungeon... while it's not uncommon
>to find dwarvish round shields in +2, they're a lot heavier.


Good points, especially early on when shields will be among the
last armor you'll start finding. I can see that the weight is
also important. Good points.

I was judging by a wizard's starting CoMR. (The only armor
wizards start with.) Any uncursed armor that's not a cloak is
a big early win. The CoMR is useful early, and is reasonable
to enchant early as part of the eventual AK.

The point being that starting with something you're going to
find before too long anyway is only a big improvement for very
early game.


Although your point about the +3 small shield being
complementing almost any body armor is good as well.

>
> My barbarians and samurai ditch their starting armor the moment
>they find a mithril-coat. My valks stack the shield on top of the
>mithril-coat for several extra points of AC, and tend to keep using that
>shield right up until they switch to two-weaponing.
>
>> Valks should probably twoweapon, although a silver shield
>> isn't out of the question.
>
> Anyone who can should two-weapon, but not at the beginning of
>the game. Wait 'til you get your luck, level, and weapons skills up a
>bit so you can actually *hit* things while two-weaponing. My valks
>usually switch over around the Castle, when they get the wand so they
>can fill any holes necessary to reconfigure their gear. Most of my other
>two-weapon-capable classes switch earlier.
>
> The silver shield is the one that I'd call pure cruelty by the
>devteam... by the mid-to-late game when you usually get your hands on
>them, most every class should be either two-weaponing or casting (or in
>some cases - Knights in particular - both), and using a shield of
>reflection destroys both abilities. Cavemen and Rangers are the
>exceptions (and the latter can get reflection from their Quest Artifact,
>anyway).

All good points, I included a silver shield ("...isn't out of
the question") for the reflection, as you deduced.

Yeah, it's heavy. But a great comfort if no alternative is
available. And it's corrode-proof. I hate losing AC points
I've scrabbled to get to Rust monsters, Black Pudding, rust
traps, and water in general.

There's little enough you can rely on in nethack.


And as for Armor weight in general, I've finally come to the
conclusion that Armor may be the best thing to budget your
carrying capacity for.

>
>> Enchanting the small shield isn't a big mistake by any means.
>> It shows emphasis on survival *now*, which is necessary for
>> survival in the long run. 🙂
>
> Until I start getting armor that I'm going to still be wearing
>when I offer the Amulet up on Odin's high altar, the small shield is my
>first enchantment target... I'll ditch it eventually, but the hefty
>enchantment it's already got means that I probably won't find anything
>better to replace it with before I ditch shields completely so I can
>two-weapon. Sadly, it can only take one enchanting.

That enchanting (if blessed) will add at most 2 points of AC
to the +3 small shield.

If you really need more AC badly enought to use a b?oEA on
throw-away armor, then you might want to consider armor that
could get 3 AC points from a b?oEA. That way you'd average two
points of enchantment from b?oEA.

>
>
>>>P - an uncursed greased +0 elven cloak (being worn)
>>
>> Keep trying on other cloaks for enchantment/protection.
>> You may find enchanted elven boots or a ring of stealth.
>
> Valks start with intrinsic stealth. There's no point in looking
>for external sources.

Very good point.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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Seraphim <gme6@cornell.edu> kirjoitti 11.09.2005:
>
> Go with the mithril. A valk doesn't need to worry about casting spells.

Ok. I can always practice my spells in a locked room if I want to.

I do eventually want to advance my spells. I'm not planning to ascend
with an int of 8. And dragon scales don't hinder spellcasting; I just
need to stay alive long enough to get some.

>> j - an uncursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
>> v - an uncursed amulet of reflection
>
> There is no reason to carry two of these around. You can only wear
> one.

I can leave it in Minetown while I do Mines' End, and then think about
what to do with it. It _is_ a useful backup in case some nymph shows
up and steals the other one before I can react, as has happened once
already.

>> Q - an uncursed +0 mummy wrapping
>
> Are you invisible?

Yes. But I won't be needing the wrapping in Mines' End, so it too can
stay in Minetown.

> What are you going to do with 5 lizard corpses? You could save weight
> by droping some.

You may be right. But they don't weigh that much, and only take up
one inventory slot. And I know there are chickatrices on the next
level down.

> The scroll of punishment isn't of much use, is it?

No. I saved while standing on my stash pile, and hadn't yet sorted my
stuff into "keep" and "leave". I'll drop those scrolls, books and
potions as soon as I resume this game, and I will pick up some ?oT's.

>> B - an uncursed emerald potion
>> J - a cursed sky blue potion
>> M - an uncursed murky potion
>
> You should price-ID these to try and figure out what they are. They
> are also heavy so get rid of the ones you don't need right away.

Ah, yes. There's a general store here, so I can price-id. Thanks for
reminding me!

>> k - a blessed +1 ring of adornment
>> E - an uncursed ring of levitation
>
> I'd ditch the ring of adornment.
> I also wonder if you really need levitation at this point.

I don't, but the ring is the only one I can engrave with, which is why
I've adjusted it to E. So it stays with me, as does the wand of fire
for obvious reasons.

The ring of adornment will go into the stash pile. I'm not going to
do any incubus dancing with a cha of 8 anyway, ring or no ring.

> You'll likely only use one wand of digging at a time. I also wonder if
> you're going to use the wand of create monster in the near future.

Yeah, I guess the other wand can stay behind. The wand of create
monster will also stay in this pile, since I'm next to the altar.
This is where I'll be using it when I do.

> Do you need he lantern and mirror?
> I also wonder if you need the whistle, leash, and marker.

I'll need at least one of whistle/leash; I've found even the non-magic
whistle to be the more useful of the two, but the leash has its uses.
I'll need the lantern if one of the levels below is dark, but I guess
I could always come back for it. The mirror and the marker are both
things that could conceivably save me in a tight spot, assuming I'll
bring some blank scrolls along too.

> Did you zap yourself with the wand of speed monster?

Yes, and with make invisible, so I wouldn't need the ring of
invisibility. All in all, invis+mummy wrapping is much more
convenient than visible+ring of invis.

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
"String theory is all very well, but I think I can beat it with my
chewing-gum and elastic band theory." -- Lemming on ahbou.d

 

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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 00:54:20 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

>Seraphim <gme6@cornell.edu> kirjoitti 11.09.2005:
>>
>> Go with the mithril. A valk doesn't need to worry about casting spells.
>
>Ok. I can always practice my spells in a locked room if I want to.
>
>I do eventually want to advance my spells. I'm not planning to ascend
>with an int of 8.

You've got your work cut out for you.

>
>>> k - a blessed +1 ring of adornment
>>> E - an uncursed ring of levitation
>>
>> I'd ditch the ring of adornment.
>> I also wonder if you really need levitation at this point.
>
>I don't, but the ring is the only one I can engrave with, which is why
>I've adjusted it to E.

Well done indeed. (And once you engrave with it, you can use
it to levitate over the engraving so it doesn't degrade.)

Just remember to only engrave one letter at a time with it. If
you engrave the E-word all in one go you'll be frozen for eight
moves.

>So it stays with me, as does the wand of fire
>for obvious reasons.
>
>The ring of adornment will go into the stash pile. I'm not going to
>do any incubus dancing with a cha of 8 anyway, ring or no ring.

It's almost easier to increase Cha than Int.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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anon <anon@anonn.com> kirjoitti 11.09.2005:
> Ilmari Karonen <usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
>> Dlvl:7 $:7750 HP:121(121) Pw:32(32) AC:-5 Xp:11/16325 T:24480
>
> With only 8 Int, you're not gonna be able to do any spellcasting for a
> while (if ever), so I would make that a low priority for now.

Surprisingly much, if I take the mithril off. I can cast healing at
40% failure, magic missile at 66% and jumping and sleep at 53%. But
you're right, it's not a priority, just an extra trick up my sleeve.

> Your focus right now should be weapons and armor - I assume you'll
> be getting Mjollnir soon, so I would spend that magic marker on some
> blessed ?oEAs or ?oEWs.

Ah, yes. Will do that, thanks.

> Unfortunately, you lost your source of protection, so you probably
> won't be able to raise your AC much more until the next priest in
> VotD;

I was actually somewhat stupid; I could've gotten one more point of
protection from the priest before killing her, if I'd thought of
pawning some stuff and donating before I converted the altar. Oh
well, what's done is done. Will try to remember it next time.

> In fact, I would stash pretty much everything valuable that you're
> carrying except the emergency stuff, because the real problem of having
> no bag isn't so much clutter but risk of inventory damage, i.e. from
> fire traps and land mines.

You're probably right. Thanks.

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
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chewing-gum and elastic band theory." -- Lemming on ahbou.d

 

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John Campbell wrote:
> Jove wrote:
> > Ilmari Karonen wrote:
>
> >>c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
>
> > Giving Valkyies a starting +3 small shield is almost pure
> > cruelty on the part of the DevTeam. Although they may be
> > thinking of helping wizards by have +3 small shields available
> > in bones files.
>
> You kidding? That small shield is one of the things that makes
> valkyries the easiest class. It provides about the same protection as
> the starting armor the other wombat classes get, but it's light and it
> stacks with good body armor once you find some. And it's better than
> most shields that you'll find in the dungeon... while it's not uncommon
> to find dwarvish round shields in +2, they're a lot heavier.

And yet that shield is only starting equipment until the
skill slots are earned to acheive #twoweapon.

> > Valks should probably twoweapon, although a silver shield
> > isn't out of the question.
>
> Anyone who can should two-weapon, but not at the beginning of
> the game. Wait 'til you get your luck, level, and weapons skills up a
> bit so you can actually *hit* things while two-weaponing. My valks
> usually switch over around the Castle, when they get the wand so they
> can fill any holes necessary to reconfigure their gear. Most of my other
> two-weapon-capable classes switch earlier.

With the rapid level gain of the mines, if there is a
coaligned altar in mine town my Valks tend to be ready
to start doing #twoweapon about the time they finish
their first big altar camp.

> > Enchanting the small shield isn't a big mistake by any means.
> > It shows emphasis on survival *now*, which is necessary for
> > survival in the long run. 🙂
>
> Until I start getting armor that I'm going to still be wearing
> when I offer the Amulet up on Odin's high altar, the small shield is my
> first enchantment target... I'll ditch it eventually, but the hefty
> enchantment it's already got means that I probably won't find anything
> better to replace it with before I ditch shields completely so I can
> two-weapon. Sadly, it can only take one enchanting.

 

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Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 11.09.2005:
>
> I don't remember what spells schools Valks can advance in.
> Be interesting to see what happens.

Attack and escape. Hence the missiles and the jumping.

> You're really no beginner at this, are you.

Just thoroughly spoiled, and reading this group.

> And wands of wishing do happen. I remember picking up a wand
> and for no reason thinking it might be a wand of wishing...and it
> was.

I've only ever had one so far; found it in a shop, thought "Whoa,
that's an expensive wand!", stole it, tried engraving with it.

That was, I think, when I started seriously digging into the spoilers,
since I knew there was useful stuff I could wish for if I only knew
what it was. I'm glad I did, since the game has felt much less
repetitive since. (I do draw a line somewhere; I solved Sokoban
myself and I don't price-id gems, even though I technically could.)

That particular Wizard suffered some YASD soon after. Can't remember
what it was. Might've starved to death.

> (In my foolish youth I once wielded all my daggers as one
> stack. Twelve of them. ;^)

That sounds vaguely familiar... 🙂

> Practice patience. After the luckstone spend time
> consolidating everything at Mine Town (if a better place doesn't
> show up.) It's possible to appreciate the process of adding
> a bunch of disparate stashes together.

Will do.

>>I picked the elven cloak for MC 3, and haven't looked back. Now that
>>I have mithril armor and the robe it's not _that_ essential anymore,
>>but I think I'll keep that cloak until something better shows up.
>
> Isn't it your source of stealth? (To complement your
> invisibility.)

I thought so too, but apparently Valks are always stealthy. It's
still a nice MC3 cloak, but I may switch for the robe if nothing
better shows up. I'll just need to get it uncursed.

> You didn't need help, you wanted reassurance. ;^D

Well, yes, that and practical advice from people who've actually been
there. It's all fine and well to consult the spoilers about how many
extra bags I need to nest two BoHs as safely as possible, but there's
no spoiler about what to do when one has no bag at all, magical or
otherwise.

> I think maybe I should be asking you for advice. 🙂

Naw, I'm mostly just getting by on spoilers and hearsay. Not to say I
haven't come up with some tricks all by myself (dropping gold into
shops and having your pet steal it back is one I'm proud of), but most
of the good advice I know is stuff I've yet to even try in practice.

(Speaking of silly tricks, here's one I just thought of: I left a live
gremlin waiting in Sokoban earlier. If I were to tame it, drag it to
Minetown on a leash, and leave it there to go feral...)

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
"String theory is all very well, but I think I can beat it with my
chewing-gum and elastic band theory." -- Lemming on ahbou.d

 

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On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 11:46:01 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 11.09.2005:
>>
>> I don't remember what spells schools Valks can advance in.
>> Be interesting to see what happens.
>
>Attack and escape. Hence the missiles and the jumping.

Ah, yes, attack for cone of cold. You're going to need
to improve your Pw a lot as well. Fortunately, that
can be done. Magic trap dancing will improve Pw,
and can improve Cha.

That Cha can then be used with foocubi for XP and Pw.
So don't lose track of that ring of adornment.


Since you have so many stats so much in need of improvement
you might use your ring of poly control with a wand/potion of
poly to turn into a new woman. I don't think I recommend it,
but it's a chance.

The other approach is alchemy for ten or so b!oGainAbility.
Save every single potion of speed, gain energy/level, and all
kinds of healing. When ready cross-dip blessd speed and blessed
healing with as large a stacks as possible (for maximum
efficiency.)

Combine resulting diluted potions of extra-healing with
all found potions of extra healing. Dip your huge stack
of blessed diluted extra-healing potions into a blessed
gain energy/level potion. (I don't say cross-dip because
you want the energy for Pw as well.)

Take resulting diluted full-healing potions and combine
with all but two or so of the found potions of full-healing.

Dip some b!oDilutedFH into another blessed potion of gain
energy/level. (Count carefully so you don't use more b!odFH
for this than necessary. Look at your unenhanced stats and
count. 🙂

Bless the resulting diluted potions of gain ability and
start quaffing.

The robe is the big thing, and other spell friendly armor.
Highly enchanted [HoB. (You can never have enough scrolls of
Enchant Armor. Use them wisely.)

You may want to consider advancing to XP 30, and beyond.
With max Con and Wis gaining XP levels give you even
more Hp and Pw. The magic missile spell does 1 d6 damage per
XP lvl.

And even with all that, remember that the "AoY doubles
mana use when spell casting.

>
>
>>>I picked the elven cloak for MC 3, and haven't looked back. Now that
>>>I have mithril armor and the robe it's not _that_ essential anymore,
>>>but I think I'll keep that cloak until something better shows up.
>>
>> Isn't it your source of stealth? (To complement your
>> invisibility.)
>
>I thought so too, but apparently Valks are always stealthy. It's
>still a nice MC3 cloak, but I may switch for the robe if nothing
>better shows up. I'll just need to get it uncursed.

For spellcasting you're going to want the robe.

>
>> You didn't need help, you wanted reassurance. ;^D
>
>Well, yes, that and practical advice from people who've actually been
>there. It's all fine and well to consult the spoilers about how many
>extra bags I need to nest two BoHs as safely as possible, but there's
>no spoiler about what to do when one has no bag at all, magical or
>otherwise.

"The difference between theory and practice, is that in theory
there is no difference, but in practice, there is."


Good work, and good luck.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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On 2005-09-11, Jove wrote:
> Reflection can keep your character alive for further playing.
> A blessed bag of holding can keep you interested in playing your
> character further.

Nominated for nethackism of the year.

Print it out and read it aloud three times whenever you enter the
amulet-level of soko and feel like screaming because your knapsack
is nearly full (as always seems to be the case when I arrive there).

Ohle
--
Jann Ohle Claussen | GPG-Key-ID E7149169
http://www.stud.uni-goettingen.de/~s251251
"It's very important for folks to understand that when there's more trade
there's more commerce." --dubya

 

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Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 12.09.2005:
>
> Good work, and good luck.

Thanks. Played some more today, wandering around Minetown, building a
Big Pile(tm) in the small room nearest the altar. Enchanted the robe,
it's now blessed +1. (Wasted a scroll of remove curse while doing it,
oh well.) Sacrificed a lichen, got Mojo -- a good deal if I say so
myself. 🙂 Got the watch captain with a bouncing magic missile; no
gloves or silver saber, alas. Advanced in hammer and attack spells,
both now at basic. Found speed boots on a mimic in Izchak's store(!).
Also found +2 leather armor; together with the robe and speed boots it
gives me AC -9 and all four spells (mm, heal, jump, sleep) at 0% fail!
Am thinking of enchanting boots and maybe robe for extra AC.

Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
Dlvl:7 $:7506 HP:121(121) Pw:19(32) AC:-9 Xp:11/18077 T:25764

Amulets
j - an uncursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
Weapons
x - the +3 Sting (alternate weapon; not wielded)
M - an uncursed war hammer named Mjollnir (weapon in hand)
Q - 11 uncursed orcish daggers (in quiver)
Armor
a - an uncursed +0 pair of speed boots (being worn)
b - a blessed +2 leather armor (being worn)
c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
d - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
e - a blessed +1 robe (being worn)
W - an uncursed +0 mummy wrapping

The watch captain was so damn easy, I'm (carefully) considering the
possibility of doing in a couple of shopkeepers while I'm on this
murdering spree. Not Izchak, though, nor the general store keeper --
I need someone to price-id my stuff with. I know there's a bear trap
a few levels up; that could be a useful precaution, in case they do
hit too hard. But I'm hoping if I zap them from afar, they'll just
zap me back...

Then I'd need to deal with the Kops -- better keep that towel handy.

(Also found a crystal ball, which could help me find a magic trap --
except that I'd first need to find a magic trap to raise my int...)

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
"String theory is all very well, but I think I can beat it with my
chewing-gum and elastic band theory." -- Lemming on ahbou.d

 

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On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 02:08:11 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 12.09.2005:
>>
>> Good work, and good luck.
>
>Thanks. Played some more today, wandering around Minetown, building a
>Big Pile(tm) in the small room nearest the altar. Enchanted the robe,
>it's now blessed +1. (Wasted a scroll of remove curse while doing it,
>oh well.)

Live and learn is a big improvement on Nethack's usual "Die and
learn."

>Sacrificed a lichen, got Mojo -- a good deal if I say so
>myself. 🙂 Got the watch captain with a bouncing magic missile; no
>gloves or silver saber, alas. Advanced in hammer and attack spells,
>both now at basic. Found speed boots on a mimic in Izchak's store(!).
>Also found +2 leather armor; together with the robe and speed boots it
>gives me AC -9 and all four spells (mm, heal, jump, sleep) at 0% fail!

More good work.

>Am thinking of enchanting boots and maybe robe for extra AC.

I'm a stickler for efficient use of ?oEA. One part of that is
only to enchant the armor you plan to ascend with. (e.g. don't
enchant any headgear because you want to ascend with an enchanted
HoBrilliance.)

Another part of efficient use of ?oEA is the order you enchant
your armor in. Shirts are rare enough that you're unlikely to
find one highly enchanted. There also are no real differences
between the two shirt types. So a shirt is the first item of
armor that you want to enchant. Take it to +3.

Trying for +5 from +3 will only gain you 2 pts of AC at best.
Using the same b?oEA on armor that can gain 3 pts of AC means
an *average* gain of 2 pts of AC.

DSM of the appropriate type (Gray in your case, I believe.)
ranks with the shirt in priority.

Hold off on shields and gloves because you may find better.
(Or, if you've got +3 or better on those, fooproof them before
they get damaged and save yet another ?oEA.)

For you the gloves especially because GoP will let you throw
Mojo. GoP will hurt your spellcasting, so the decision is up
to you.

Note that you can wield other weapons, but still throw the, say
+0, Mojo. That gives you a nice ranged weapon which can be used
against disenchanters, rust monsters, nymphs, black/brown
puddings, etc.

You can still Quiver daggers, and #adjust Mojo to 't', so
throwing it is as easy as 'tt<direction>', while your daggers
can still be thrown with 'f<direction>'.

HoB should be enchanted immediately once you get it, possibly
with b?oEA reserved for just that eventuality.


Boots should be enchanted last. I am NOT saying they shouldn't
be enchanted, just that they should be given the lowest priority.
Mostly because there are so many different boots with
capabilities useful in the appropriate situation. And one of
those abilities can be achieved in no other way: water walking.

If you have boots of levitation, water walking, or jumping,
you don't want to lower your AC by using them unless you have
plenty of AC to spare.

Don't get me wrong, speed boots are life savers for slow
wizards. (""Dead slow" is the appropriate term. ;^) This is
an argument for the priority of enchanting, not absolute worth.

But for a spellcaster with the ability to advance in escape
spells, speed boots are expendable. (NOT worthless, expendable.)
Cast spell of of haste self, and swap to jumping/lev/WaterWalking
as needed, then switch back.

This may seem to be a hair-splitting argument looking ahead to
situation(s) that may not come up anyway, and even then won't
matter that much. For the most part, that's correct. :-D

Until you get to the Ascension Run, that is. Almost any
advantage is worth preparing for ahead of time for the Ascension
Run.

Just look at poor Electronic Samurai in this thread here:

<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike.nethack/browse_thread/thread/41cd741a3caf4047/a9e1bd49c6c91482?lnk=st&q=group:rec.games.roguelike.nethack+author:Jove&rnum=3&hl=en#a9e1bd49c6c91482>

TronSam did a great job getting up to the Ascension Run, but
seems woefully underprepared for the actual run. (Few would
argue that it's possible to be overprepared for the Ascension
Run. 🙂

And on the Ascension run being able to wear levitation boots
to free up a ring slot for Air or Water, without losing speed or
AC, could well be important.

And jumping boots on the Planes of Earth, Fire, and Astral let
you travel over twice as fast as speed boots.

That last applies even if you're only fast, and the spell of
haste self at least gives the option of being very fast as well.

As I've said elsewhere, "Few monsters are a threat when they're
rapidly receding in your rearview mirror." And traveling two to
three squares per move means they're receding rapidly indeed.

I've also pointed out before that someone fast can jump across
a level and *back* before someone very fast can travel across
a level *once*.

Even with the spell of jumping available, jumping boots are
much preferable on the Ascension Run, where the Amulet of Yendor
doubles Pw drain when casting spells.

Dropping the AoY to "pump up" the spell of haste self by
casting it multiple times in succession is perfectly feasible.

Dropping the AoY to cast the spell of jumping means leaving
the Amulet behind. This can be very useful tactically, but
the overall strategy of the Ascension Run is to get the AoY
to a co-aligned high altar on the Astral Plane.

Even the most dangerous monsters are much less of a threat
when you can jump past them without being touched. (As I did
to Pestilence on my first Ascension. Twice. bseg 🙂

Are their downsides to jumping? Yes, of course:

- You have to see where you want to land.
- Eyes of the Overworld are perfect for this: can't be
blinded and don't need a light source.)
- Otherwise you need a light source and not be blinded.
(Stunned doesn't matter, in the event of Archons.)
- There can't be anything in the way.
- Wand/spell of teleportation handles this nicely. And
jumping lets you take advantage of up to *three* of those
squares the wand opened up, instead of just one. Saves
/WoTele charges.
- Averages burning 13 points of nutrition per jump. (NB:
One food ration is 800 pts of nutrition.)
- The #jump interface is less than ideal.

Speed boots require much less thinking and activity: Put
them on and forget about them. Being permanently very fast
is better for pure do or die melee fighting. ("Do and die"
might be a better phrase. ;-)


Special note for the plane of fire: Vortices can drop you
into lava. So have wands of cold and digging for a last resort.
You should still take preventative action while in a vortice:
levitation from boots/ring/spell/potion or fireproof boots
of water-walking. (Bet you thought water walking boots were
useless on the Astral Planes, since they don't help on the
Plane of Water. ;^)

Cone of cold for spell casting Valks on the plane of fire is
also helpful for making a direct path: Drop Amulet of Yendor
'dd' (You did #adjust the AoY to 'd', didn't you? 🙂. Cast
cone of cold.

NB: Expert(?) level Cone of Cold has improved but not unlimited
range. (Try before you buy! 🙂

>
>Vyznev the Woman-at-arms St:18/03 Dx:15 Co:18 In:8 Wi:12 Ch:8 Neutral
>Dlvl:7 $:7506 HP:121(121) Pw:19(32) AC:-9 Xp:11/18077 T:25764
>
> Amulets
> j - an uncursed amulet of reflection (being worn)
> Weapons
> x - the +3 Sting (alternate weapon; not wielded)
> M - an uncursed war hammer named Mjollnir (weapon in hand)
> Q - 11 uncursed orcish daggers (in quiver)
> Armor
> a - an uncursed +0 pair of speed boots (being worn)
> b - a blessed +2 leather armor (being worn)
> c - an uncursed greased +4 small shield (being worn)
> d - a blessed greased +3 elven leather helm (being worn)
> e - a blessed +1 robe (being worn)
> W - an uncursed +0 mummy wrapping
>

Still no gloves, huh?


>The watch captain was so damn easy, I'm (carefully) considering the
>possibility of doing in a couple of shopkeepers while I'm on this
>murdering spree.

Why?

I've tried it with a chaotic wizard using a cockatrice corpse.
My alignment/luck/*something* got hurt so bad one of the
shopkeepers killed me while I kept missing with the cockatrice
corpse. (But surely I'd have got him on the next try. 🙂



>Not Izchak, though, nor the general store keeper --
>I need someone to price-id my stuff with. I know there's a bear trap
>a few levels up; that could be a useful precaution, in case they do
>hit too hard. But I'm hoping if I zap them from afar, they'll just
>zap me back...
>
>Then I'd need to deal with the Kops -- better keep that towel handy.

Is that why non-chaotics lose telepathy when killing a
shopkeeper, to make dealing with the cream pie throwing Kops
more difficult?

Probably not since just killing shopkeepers doesn't call the
Kops in, only stealing, IIRC.

>
>(Also found a crystal ball, which could help me find a magic trap --
>except that I'd first need to find a magic trap to raise my int...)

Magic traps show up enough by themselves. They're part of a
long-term strategy, not short term. (Cursed/confused scrolls of
gold detection will work as well, but they're probably best saved
for the Ascension run.)

And magic traps don't raise your Int, unless they produce a
(master) mindflayer for you to eat. Even that possibility has
downsides enough to make it unproductive, I do believe.

Magic trap dancing only increases Pw and (possibly) Cha.
b!oEnlightment/b!oGainAbility are the best ways to gain Int.
And !oGA can be alchemized. HoB helps, but you can still
benefit from increasing the basic stat itself. But again, that's
part of a long term strategy.

I've found carrying burnable valuables in inventory makes magic
traps appear, with the first effect being tower of flame. ;-)

Do you have fire resistance? Without it those towers of flame
will lower your max Hp. Without a bag or some other container
the flames will destroy fire vulnerable items in your inventory
as well.



--
All the best,

Jove

 

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Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 13.09.2005:
>
> I'm a stickler for efficient use of ?oEA. One part of that is
> only to enchant the armor you plan to ascend with. (e.g. don't
> enchant any headgear because you want to ascend with an enchanted
> HoBrilliance.)

I actually went and enchanted my elven leather helm to +5. Not
intentionally, though -- I meant to enchant the robe but forgot to
take the headgear off. That's another mistake I'll try not to repeat
any time soon.

Anyway, at this stage I guess it doesn't really matter which item got
enchanted; they're all about equally likely to get swapped (except for
the body armor, which I know I'll eventually ditch for DSM.)

> For you the gloves especially because GoP will let you throw
> Mojo. GoP will hurt your spellcasting, so the decision is up
> to you.

I'll try to get them, if only to find out what flinging Mojo is like.
It sounds fun. 🙂

> But for a spellcaster with the ability to advance in escape
> spells, speed boots are expendable. (NOT worthless, expendable.)
> Cast spell of of haste self, and swap to jumping/lev/WaterWalking
> as needed, then switch back.

Yes, I agree that haste self + jumping boots is probably a better
combo than jumping + speed boots. Of course, I have neither haste
self nor jumping boots, so the point is rather academic right now.

> Special note for the plane of fire: Vortices can drop you
> into lava. So have wands of cold and digging for a last resort.
> You should still take preventative action while in a vortice:
> levitation from boots/ring/spell/potion or fireproof boots
> of water-walking. (Bet you thought water walking boots were
> useless on the Astral Planes, since they don't help on the
> Plane of Water. ;^)

Fireproof water-walking boots let you walk on lava? Wow!

> NB: Expert(?) level Cone of Cold has improved but not unlimited
> range. (Try before you buy! 🙂

Valks can only get to basic in spellcasting, so I won't get to try the
"scatter bomb" mode. (It doesn't really sound as useful as it might
be, if there's no way to get the usual ray effect when you want it...)

> Still no gloves, huh?

Indeed no.

>>The watch captain was so damn easy, I'm (carefully) considering the
>>possibility of doing in a couple of shopkeepers while I'm on this
>>murdering spree.
>
> Why?

They carry useful wands. That would be the main reason.

Anyway, I've called that plan off for now. Instead, my new evil plan
is to grow puddings. A brown pudding showed up in Minetown, and I
managed to lure it to the temple and keep it there with Elbereth.
(Doors don't help with puddings, right?) I'm now on my way to Soko to
fetch my scrolls of earth so I can set up my own little pudding farm
by the book. (I though I had one scroll of earth with me, but it
seems not to be the case. I know I left two in Soko, though.)

The challenging part of this is dragging my dog past the gremlin and
the succubus on the lowest level of Sokoban without getting any of the
three (or myself) killed. Or I guess I could just leave him outside,
though I already went in past the succubus.

> I've tried it with a chaotic wizard using a cockatrice corpse.
> My alignment/luck/*something* got hurt so bad one of the
> shopkeepers killed me while I kept missing with the cockatrice
> corpse. (But surely I'd have got him on the next try. 🙂

I was planning to immobilize them with a bear trap first, and then
cast magic missile in close quarters with the "oR on. That latter
trick killed the watch captain in one turn, so I expect it'd at least
hurt a shopkeeper.

> Probably not since just killing shopkeepers doesn't call the
> Kops in, only stealing, IIRC.

Hmm, need to check that one.

> And magic traps don't raise your Int, unless they produce a
> (master) mindflayer for you to eat. Even that possibility has
> downsides enough to make it unproductive, I do believe.

Oh, I must've misread something. Oh well, I'll make sure to reread
the relevant spoiler if and when the need arises.

> Do you have fire resistance? Without it those towers of flame
> will lower your max Hp. Without a bag or some other container
> the flames will destroy fire vulnerable items in your inventory
> as well.

Nope, no fire resistance yet, I think. I'll keep munching on fire
ants and such until I get it.

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
"String theory is all very well, but I think I can beat it with my
chewing-gum and elastic band theory." -- Lemming on ahbou.d

 

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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:32:37 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 13.09.2005:
>>
>> I'm a stickler for efficient use of ?oEA. One part of that is
>> only to enchant the armor you plan to ascend with. (e.g. don't
>> enchant any headgear because you want to ascend with an enchanted
>> HoBrilliance.)
>
>I actually went and enchanted my elven leather helm to +5. Not
>intentionally, though -- I meant to enchant the robe but forgot to
>take the headgear off. That's another mistake I'll try not to repeat
>any time soon.
>

It wasn't wasted (i.e. nothing vaporized.) It's excellent
headgear for you right now, which is *nothing* to sneeze at.
You don't really need to check helmets from here on, except for
enchanted polyfodder


Once you get the HOB (Probably wished for blessed +2/3 fixed
etc.), if you have a spare b?oEA, take the elven helm to +6/7
and polymorph it until you get something you can use at +6/7. (or
it disappears 🙂.


Remember elven armor, and *only* elven armor, can be safely
enchanted when it's at +5. (Well, a cornuthaum, too. But that's
not important right now.)


>Anyway, at this stage I guess it doesn't really matter which item got
>enchanted; they're all about equally likely to get swapped (except for
>the body armor, which I know I'll eventually ditch for DSM.)

Au contraire, you are unlikely to get a better helm without
wishing and some enchanting.

>
>> For you the gloves especially because GoP will let you throw
>> Mojo. GoP will hurt your spellcasting, so the decision is up
>> to you.
>
>I'll try to get them, if only to find out what flinging Mojo is like.
>It sounds fun. 🙂

Risk to your rings/wands in inventory 1 time in 20, I think.
Even then only if wearing GoP. You can still throw Mojo without
Str 25, it just won't come back on it's own.

There was even a short discussion of getting Str 25 even
*without* GoP (two +4/5 rings of increase strength).


>
>> But for a spellcaster with the ability to advance in escape
>> spells, speed boots are expendable. (NOT worthless, expendable.)
>> Cast spell of of haste self, and swap to jumping/lev/WaterWalking
>> as needed, then switch back.
>
>Yes, I agree that haste self + jumping boots is probably a better
>combo than jumping + speed boots. Of course, I have neither haste
>self nor jumping boots, so the point is rather academic right now.

Except for holding off enchanting the speed boots unless you
have a lot of b?oEA going begging. (Which can happen, lucky
zap with /oPoly at stack of 10 blessed scrolls of detect food....
🙂


>
>> Special note for the plane of fire: Vortices can drop you
>> into lava. So have wands of cold and digging for a last resort.
>> You should still take preventative action while in a vortice:
>> levitation from boots/ring/spell/potion or fireproof boots
>> of water-walking. (Bet you thought water walking boots were
>> useless on the Astral Planes, since they don't help on the
>> Plane of Water. ;^)
>
>Fireproof water-walking boots let you walk on lava? Wow!

Water walking boots let you walk on lava. Fireproof water
walking boots let you *keep* walking on lava. You may still want
to have fire resistance yourself anyway. (Someone did it on
their Quest, but didn't have the water walking boots
fireproofed. They were fireproof, I recall, and had the unique
experience of drowning in lava.)

Water walking boots are also an excellent idea on ice, since
the ice can be melted out from underneath you with no warning
by fire-breathing creatures. Fireproof water walking boots
would be perfect in a land of fire *and* ice.



>
>> NB: Expert(?) level Cone of Cold has improved but not unlimited
>> range. (Try before you buy! 🙂
>
>Valks can only get to basic in spellcasting, so I won't get to try the
>"scatter bomb" mode. (It doesn't really sound as useful as it might
>be, if there's no way to get the usual ray effect when you want it...)
>

The orc is caught in the cone of cold! <more>
The nymph is caught in the cone of cold! <more>
The kraken is caught in the cone of cold! <more>
The Wizard of Yendor is caught in the cone of cold! <more>
The black dragon is caught in the cone of cold! <more>
The water freezes. Now you can cross it! <more>
You hear a crackling sound <more>

The above would be repeated 3-5 times for *one* casting of
expert cone of cold. Area effect weapon. If you're cold
resistant and there's no light, cast it on your own location.

Different from breaking a wand of teleport, because you get
to search the corpses for cold-resistant items.

On water/lava it's usually an instant 5x5 block of solid
footing.

I don't use it offensively much because it freezes/shatters
potions.

But for sheer raw area destructiveness it's tough to beat
skilled (expert?) cone of cold immediately followed by the
same level of fireball. "Resist THAT, punks."

Or vice versa - instant frozen dinners. YANI: monsters
in metallic body armor subject to the fireball/cone-of-cold
treatment become tins.

Potions, scrolls, spellbooks, etc. in monsters' inventory or
from death drops are as hosed as the monsters, of course.

But it's a great feeling in Moloch's Sanctum if you've decided
to just *power* your way through. "Ready or not, here comes
Wimpy Wizzard!"



>> Still no gloves, huh?
>
>Indeed no.
>
>>>The watch captain was so damn easy, I'm (carefully) considering the
>>>possibility of doing in a couple of shopkeepers while I'm on this
>>>murdering spree.
>>
>> Why?
>
>They carry useful wands. That would be the main reason.

Not really that useful to you at this point, I would think.
Someone said they felt wands were underpowered starting from the
mid-game. I agree. Use them in the early game like gang-busters
to stay alive and get ahead of the game in terms of equipment.

I found in the mid/late game I was collecting wands to keep
monsters from using them on me. I very rarely used a wand of
any kind, even when I wasn't using spells.

/oStriking for breaking boulders, if you're not carrying a
pickaxe anyway. Use the pickaxe for breaking statues that
might have potions in them.

/oMagic Missile for lines of monsters, maybe. But in those
cases the monsters are usually coming at you one at a time
anyway. In that case you get chew them up one at a time.

/oCold I save for freezing water/lava to cross it. (And I
still wear/have means to keep me save if the water is melted.)

/oFire or Lightning are emergency permanent Elbereth engravers.
They damage items in monsters inventory.

>
>Anyway, I've called that plan off for now. Instead, my new evil plan
>is to grow puddings. A brown pudding showed up in Minetown, and I
>managed to lure it to the temple and keep it there with Elbereth.
>(Doors don't help with puddings, right?)

Right. They'll rot organic armor (but not elven daggers,
curiously enough. So you can use elven/silver daggers to thin
the herd when you like.)

>I'm now on my way to Soko to
>fetch my scrolls of earth so I can set up my own little pudding farm
>by the book. (I though I had one scroll of earth with me, but it
>seems not to be the case. I know I left two in Soko, though.)


Why do you want scrolls of earth? I've pudding farmed several
times and didn't do anything special, except hit them with a -3
knife. (Engrave with a regular weapon you have no skills in to
get it to minimal effectiveness.)

Taking down walls, etc. and building a boulder fort looks good,
but I don't see any real need for it. And it locks you into
pudding farming. Soldiers have less chance of being generated
in a level filled with puddings, and soldiers are a good source
for gloves.

Be careful of same-race sacrifice! That will convert the
altar, and I believe you, too, to chaotic instantly. Kiss the
Quest, and therefore the Amulet of Yendor, goodbye!

Letting the puddings roam means you can roam, too. You can go
out and price id interesting death drops. And other, usually
more interesting, monsters can come to you as well. A ring of
warning will do a good job of letting you know how many puddings
you have left.


Get the scrolls first. Then try pudding farming without
prepping the level. If you don't like it, you can then clear
everything out.

>
>The challenging part of this is dragging my dog past the gremlin and
>the succubus on the lowest level of Sokoban without getting any of the
>three (or myself) killed. Or I guess I could just leave him outside,
>though I already went in past the succubus.

Yeah, losing one point of tameness every 75 turns you're not on
the same level is no big deal with an eating pet. And dogs can
be retamed easily.

>
>> I've tried it with a chaotic wizard using a cockatrice corpse.
>> My alignment/luck/*something* got hurt so bad one of the
>> shopkeepers killed me while I kept missing with the cockatrice
>> corpse. (But surely I'd have got him on the next try. 🙂
>
>I was planning to immobilize them with a bear trap first, and then
>cast magic missile in close quarters with the "oR on. That latter
>trick killed the watch captain in one turn, so I expect it'd at least
>hurt a shopkeeper.

My point was it had a bad enough negative effect on a *chaotic*
to cause repeated misses with a cockatrice corpse. If a
cockatrice corpse can miss, so can everything else.

Tell me again what wonderful wands you hope to get to be worth
the negative effects? A couple of low-order offensive wands is
what I'd expect. (I was being young and stupid with my
cockatrice corpse. ;^)

>
>> And magic traps don't raise your Int, unless they produce a
>> (master) mindflayer for you to eat. Even that possibility has
>> downsides enough to make it unproductive, I do believe.
>
>Oh, I must've misread something. Oh well, I'll make sure to reread
>the relevant spoiler if and when the need arises.


You may have mixed up the two stats of Int and Cha, neither of
which can be exercised, and therefore won't increase naturally.
Magic Trap dancing is the way to increase Cha.

(Wizards are the mirror image of Valkyrie's here because
Wizards are almost guaranteed to have starting Int 17/18.
Everthing else is low, but everything else can be improved
by exercise or magic trap dancing. They just have to stay
alive long enough to do it. ;^)

Int has the following methods of being increased:

Eating a (master) mindflayer corpse only has a chance of
raising your Int, not a certainty.

(And take off your ring of Protection from MindFlayers^W^W^W
....Sustain Ability before you eat the corpse so your Int *can*
be increased, should that happen.)

Or the gamble of polymorphing yourself into a new woman.
With rings of poly and poly control it may just be a matter
of patience. First in polying until you get a high enough
Int not to risk polyselfing again. The patience in regaining
all the other stats you lost ground in. And possibly regaining
levels, although gaining levels is not unheard of.

b!oEnlightenment and b!oGA are the only sureties. Alchemy
can get you !oGA, but as many as you'll need you may have to
collect potions for a long time to to it.


This is one of the drawbacks to playing Valkyries: Int is the
most difficult stat to increase, since it can't be exercised and
magic traps don't help.


>
>> Do you have fire resistance? Without it those towers of flame
>> will lower your max Hp. Without a bag or some other container
>> the flames will destroy fire vulnerable items in your inventory
>> as well.
>
>Nope, no fire resistance yet, I think. I'll keep munching on fire
>ants and such until I get it.

Did you have a ring of fire resistance? Or am I thinking of
one of the many other posts here listing inventory.


--
All the best,

Jove

 

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Ilmari Karonen <usenet@vyznev.invalid> kirjoitti 13.09.2005:
>
> Anyway, I've called that plan off for now. Instead, my new evil plan
> is to grow puddings. A brown pudding showed up in Minetown, and I
> managed to lure it to the temple and keep it there with Elbereth.
> (Doors don't help with puddings, right?) I'm now on my way to Soko to
> fetch my scrolls of earth so I can set up my own little pudding farm
> by the book. (I though I had one scroll of earth with me, but it
> seems not to be the case. I know I left two in Soko, though.)

Sigh. I'm not cracked up to be a farmer, it seems. Went ahead and
zapped the gremlin, since I already had the pudding, didn't want to
try sneaking past a gremlin at night, and was too eager to play to
just call it a day. Got the scrolls, got back to Minetown, got the
farm all set up, and just when I was almost ready, my dog snuck into
the temple and killed the pudding before I could stop him. Should've
locked the whining bastard away...

Since my pudding farm thus failed, I took my frustration out on some
innocent shopkeepers. They can take one magic missile, it seems, but
two is enough. Got some wands, potions and gold. Nothing much,
really. Accidentally smashed one wand of striking when I hit the
shopkeeper with Mjollnir. At least I got to claim the icebox in the
food store as mine.

In hindsight, I probably would've done better if I'd just gone to
sleep and let the game wait for tomorrow. Never play nethack while
tired, right? Still, easy come, easy go. I'm still alive and doing
fine, and I can decide what to do next later when I'm more alert.

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
"String theory is all very well, but I think I can beat it with my
chewing-gum and elastic band theory." -- Lemming on ahbou.d

 

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Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 14.09.2005:
>
> Once you get the HOB (Probably wished for blessed +2/3 fixed
> etc.), if you have a spare b?oEA, take the elven helm to +6/7
> and polymorph it until you get something you can use at +6/7. (or
> it disappears 🙂.

Hmm, a good idea. Thanks!

>>Anyway, at this stage I guess it doesn't really matter which item got
>>enchanted; they're all about equally likely to get swapped (except for
>>the body armor, which I know I'll eventually ditch for DSM.)
>
> Au contraire, you are unlikely to get a better helm without
> wishing and some enchanting.

Well, yes, but if I'd enchanted the robe or the boots instead, the
same would've been true for them.

> There was even a short discussion of getting Str 25 even
> *without* GoP (two +4/5 rings of increase strength).

Or one at +7, I assume? (Is it purely additive, i.e. 18 + 7 = 25?)
As I understand it +7 is doable, although with a significant risk of
breaking the ring.

If I had two rings of increase strength, it might be worth risking one
of them for the chance of str 25 with only one ring. Ring fingers are
somewhat scarce in nethack, after all.

> Water walking boots let you walk on lava. Fireproof water
> walking boots let you *keep* walking on lava.

Well, yes, I rather expect walking on lava to be one of those things
anyone can do. Once. Briefly. ;-)

Well, IRL at least; in nethack I guess it depends on whether you count
walking on_to_ lava...

> Water walking boots are also an excellent idea on ice, since
> the ice can be melted out from underneath you with no warning
> by fire-breathing creatures. Fireproof water walking boots
> would be perfect in a land of fire *and* ice.

Thanks for the advice. If I don't find waterwalking boots by then, I
guess I could try levitating on the Quest. But the boots certainly
seem a better option.

> Why do you want scrolls of earth? I've pudding farmed several
> times and didn't do anything special, except hit them with a -3
> knife. (Engrave with a regular weapon you have no skills in to
> get it to minimal effectiveness.)

Oh, well. I didn't really know how risky it would be, and as others
have recommended boulder forts, I decided to set one up just in case
there was a reason for them. I know from experience that monsters
that are no trouble one-to-one can be lethal if they surround you.

Anyway, as I expect you already know from my previous post, my pudding
farm failed before I even got it started. I can always hope another
random pudding shows up, but I don't think I'll wait specifically for
that. I think I'll go fetch some more stuff from Soko to Minetown,
and then go down and do Mines' End.

> Tell me again what wonderful wands you hope to get to be worth
> the negative effects? A couple of low-order offensive wands is
> what I'd expect. (I was being young and stupid with my
> cockatrice corpse. ;^)

Yep, not much. Oh well, went and did it anyway. I expect some more
sacrificing will take care of the luck penalty. The telepathy loss is
worse, but I'd already lost it from killing the priest. I expect I'll
give up my evil ways as soon as I find another floating eye. ;-)

> Int has the following methods of being increased:

Thanks.

> Did you have a ring of fire resistance? Or am I thinking of
> one of the many other posts here listing inventory.

No, that was someone else.

--
Ilmari Karonen
To reply by e-mail, please replace ".invalid" with ".net" in address.
"String theory is all very well, but I think I can beat it with my
chewing-gum and elastic band theory." -- Lemming on ahbou.d

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:20:53 +0300, Ilmari Karonen
<usenet@vyznev.invalid> wrote:

>Jove <invalid@invalid.invalid> kirjoitti 14.09.2005:
>>
>> There was even a short discussion of getting Str 25 even
>> *without* GoP (two +4/5 rings of increase strength).
>
>Or one at +7, I assume? (Is it purely additive, i.e. 18 + 7 = 25?)
>As I understand it +7 is doable, although with a significant risk of
>breaking the ring.

If I told you "yes", "no", or "maybe" I be risking lying to
you.

>
>If I had two rings of increase strength, it might be worth risking one
>of them for the chance of str 25 with only one ring. Ring fingers are
>somewhat scarce in nethack, after all.

Get GoP first and see how much you like throwing Mojo with
them. And see what they do to your spellcasting, and if
spellcasting in combat is that important.

18/** Str does the same amount of damage as Str 25, so GoP are
not required for maximum damage.



> Why do you want scrolls of earth? I've pudding farmed several
>> times and didn't do anything special, except hit them with a -3
>> knife. (Engrave with a regular weapon you have no skills in to
>> get it to minimal effectiveness.)
>
>Oh, well. I didn't really know how risky it would be, and as others
>have recommended boulder forts, I decided to set one up just in case
>there was a reason for them. I know from experience that monsters
>that are no trouble one-to-one can be lethal if they surround you.

Permanently engraved Elbereth.



--
All the best,

Jove