IBM's PC business up for sale

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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:58:34 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 21:52:58 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
>> On Thu, 09 Dec 2004 22:21:56 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>>>Optical *and* cordless is even better.

>> Cordless and ball is really tragic - I had a client who spent up on
>> exactly that; geez, the shop must have been happy. I'd rather live
>> with a cord than have to add batteries

I also get fed up with dragging mouse cord, but I just snag it under
the monitor's foot to stop it escaping over the back of the desk!

>>>I'm not even sure why a put a floppy drive in this system

>One can boot a PC off a CDROM, so where's the beef?

It's inefficient to keeop an av on CDR updated for field work (this is
where bootable or reachable USB stick is better).

CD-ROM's also not a great place to do BIOS flash from, if this changes
the status of the UIDE interface.

>> More to the point, the NT installation procedure still prompts for
>> boot-needed drivers (S-ATA, RAID, SCSI etc.) off diskette. Until BIOS
>> support for USB is solid enough, I can't see a fix, as the optical drive
>> may well be on the same controller you are trying to drive.

>Again, CDROM.

If the boot HD's on a fancy interface that needs special drivers,
guess what interface the CD-ROM's likely to be on too?

>> Once USB sticks are as cheap as 1.44M (they are already for laptops, but
>> that's because laptop 1.44M are so costly) then we may see the shift -
>> but there's another gotcha to be fixed first.

>Dunno, a friend snagged a 256MB USB stick from Staples for $10. Last I
>checked that was pretty close to a floppy drive's cost and a tad larger.

Prices here are dropping, with regular specials, but nothing as cheaop
as that. Best is typically 128M at R 150 or so, which is about $25.

>> If a USB stick is bootable (as would be more often the case if we ditch
>> 1.44M) and is in the PC on boot or when OS is installed, it sometimes
>> scrambles drive letter allocation.

>SMOP. But again, don't all systems have CDROM drives? DOn't 90% of the
>new ones (where floppys could be eliminated) have CD-R or CD-R/W drives?

As I say; it's in transition. At present I still find 1.44M useful
for various maintenance tasks, including av, and obviously so when
dealing with older PCs (here, we see right back to DOS 3.3)



>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
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>-------------------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
 
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:07:27 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:35:20 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:
>
>> Optical is the only way to go now but... sorry but I can't get past the
>> idea of batteries. When the 'phone ones go low we always seem to be out;
>> often as not we don't have a working flashlight when we most need it and
>> have to search out the candles... in the dark:); the digital camera one
>> seems to spend more time plugged in the wall than it does in the camera. I
>> don't need another device which goes "hungry" when I really need it... when
>> the cord is no inconvenience to me.
>
>Hang up the mouse when you're not calling, err mousing. It's
>rechargeable. I've also noticed (because I don't always remember to hang
>it up) that it will run about a day (at least eight hours) begging for a
>recharge. There is a blinkin' red LED on its back to signal when it needs
>a fix.

Only a day - fahgedabatit... for me.:)

>As far as cords go, I'm always getting them tangled or wedged between the
>desk and wall. They're kinda like the old-style automobile seatbelts.
>Rather pythonesque (and it's not at all funny).

That's what Scotch tape was invented for.

>> Yeah we're almost there on elimination of floppies but the USB ones are
>> $25. or so, *if* you really need one. When they offer you a T42P I'd
>> say "yes please".:)
>
>As I said in another article, a friend snagged a 256MB stick for $10
>at Staples last weekend. At the stores here they were $30. I'll take
>the T42p IFF my dock still works (or they fork over for that too). ;-)

If the dock is a 2631, it won't work - you'd need a "Dock II" or Mini-Dock,
which are backwards compatible with A2x models. There must be something
about the new models' connector which is electrically different enough that
they made it so T4xs won't physically fit in the old Docks - the shape and
form of the connector is the same though... or it's just gouging.:)
Here's the cross-reference:
http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4NXNTP
If you don't need a drive bay in the Dock, the Mini-Dock looks good.

>>>The "facts" are now out. I think they'll keep the "Think" brands,
>>>though the IBM logo is another thing entirely.
>>
>> From what I read, it seemed we'll be able to buy IBM branded Thinkpads
>> for 5 years or so at least - IOW Lenovo is just taking over management
>> of the U.S. operation and the already exisiting sub-contracted mfr. in
>> China.
>
>The issue of the "Think" brand was murky, IMO. It was clear that
>Lenovo was going to use the color IBM logo for five years. BTW, they
>also get the manufacturing iin Mexico (I think it's still there for the
>'T' series) and the Sanmina-SCI sub-contracts.

Somehow I don't think the Chinese are going to get along with the Mexican
work style, as I've heard it put.;-) From the blurb at the IBM Web site,
IBM seems to be falling over itself to push Lenovo as a worthy, reputable
inheritor. It appears that in China they are considered a top quality
brand so things may work out well. It's also possible that the association
gives IBM some leverage to build out its services contracts business in
China down the road.

Did you catch Mikey's take on it:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118868,00.asp ? He's gotta be
worried about this. I dunno how Dell sits in China just now but I'd think
the IBM brands must add some cachet to the Lenovo line in their home market
and maybe the Pacific Rim in general.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 21:01:09 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Win9x)"
<cquirkenews@nospam.mvps.org> wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 09:58:34 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>>One can boot a PC off a CDROM, so where's the beef?
>
>It's inefficient to keeop an av on CDR updated for field work (this is
>where bootable or reachable USB stick is better).

It's a lot less efficient to use floppies in my experience. The disks
cost more than CDRs and floppies might as well be one-time use only
since the die so often. These days I typically find at least one out
of every 3 floppies I try fails.

>CD-ROM's also not a great place to do BIOS flash from, if this changes
>the status of the UIDE interface.

I'd MUCH rather do a BIOS flash from a CD-ROM than from a floppy. FAR
less chance of getting a corrupt image due to a bad floppy disk.
Besides, no one uses the BIOS for IDE interface after bootstrapping
anyway, that's why almost all BIOS updates now can be done in Windows
(not always ideal if you have Linux box).

>>> More to the point, the NT installation procedure still prompts for
>>> boot-needed drivers (S-ATA, RAID, SCSI etc.) off diskette. Until BIOS
>>> support for USB is solid enough, I can't see a fix, as the optical drive
>>> may well be on the same controller you are trying to drive.
>
>>Again, CDROM.
>
>If the boot HD's on a fancy interface that needs special drivers,
>guess what interface the CD-ROM's likely to be on too?

Most likely plain old IDE. The percentage of CD-ROM drives that are
hanging off some obscure interface is pretty darn low. I know I was
definitely in the minority when I had two CD-ROMs hanging off a
non-bootable SCSI drive about a year ago. Fortunately I have now
replaced one of those drives with an IDE one and the other will
probably go when I can afford the $75 or so for a new DVD-RW drive.

>>Dunno, a friend snagged a 256MB USB stick from Staples for $10. Last I
>>checked that was pretty close to a floppy drive's cost and a tad larger.
>
>Prices here are dropping, with regular specials, but nothing as cheaop
>as that. Best is typically 128M at R 150 or so, which is about $25.

USB drives are the sort of thing that you can often get really good
specials on and more than once I've seen them thrown in as a "free"
gift along with another purchase (ie printers, monitors, etc.).

>>SMOP. But again, don't all systems have CDROM drives? DOn't 90% of the
>>new ones (where floppys could be eliminated) have CD-R or CD-R/W drives?
>
>As I say; it's in transition. At present I still find 1.44M useful
>for various maintenance tasks, including av, and obviously so when
>dealing with older PCs (here, we see right back to DOS 3.3)

Sure, archaic PCs might still require floppies, but modern ones? By
default many (most?) new systems no longer ship with floppies, and to
that I say "good riddance!" Probably at least 99.9% of all new
systems have bootable CD-ROM drives that are FAR more useful than
floppies.

Any time I still need to use a floppy disk these days I always make
sure to have AT LEAST two copies of the same disk because the chance
of one failing is so high. That's something I almost never have to
worry about with CDRs (sure, they do die, but at only a very tiny
fraction of how often floppies die).

I've still got a floppy drive in my system, but I think I've used it
only once (to update a BIOS) since getting an IDE CD-RW drive almost a
year ago. If I need to update the BIOS on my new boards (one of which
does not have a floppy drive plugged in to it), I'll probably just
grab a bootable CDR instead though. Cheaper and more reliable.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
 
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:00:31 -0500, George Macdonald
<fammacd=!SPAM^nothanks@tellurian.com> wrote:

>Did you catch Mikey's take on it:
>http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118868,00.asp ?

I like how Dell continues to talk the talk against outsourcing without
mentioning that pretty much all of their tech support has been
outsourced. I don't know for certain, but I'd be willing to bet that
the much publicized move to bring corporate support back to the US
after a failed attempt to outsource in India still ended up at an
outsourced company; probably Convergys, SITEL or Stream.

I don't know how much of their manufacturing has been outsourced, but
definitely some of it has. On the flip side, the bulk of HPaq's
business computer line are manufactured (err.. assembled) in the US as
well, so they really aren't all that different from Dell here either.
I'd be fairly confident that IBM is in the same boat as well.

> He's gotta be
>worried about this. I dunno how Dell sits in China just now but I'd think
>the IBM brands must add some cachet to the Lenovo line in their home market
>and maybe the Pacific Rim in general.

Well I'll be... I was just doing a bit of digging for some market
share numbers and I found this little bit:


"Several years ago, Michael Dell was quoted as saying the greatest
threat to the Dell direct-to-consumer model came from Lenovo."

Ref:
http://www.china-ready.com/news/Jan2004/DellPuttingPricingPressureOnLegendInChinaDomesticMarket012904.htm


This is especially interesting because that article was written almost
a year ago, long before anyone got wind of this new deal between IBM
and Lenovo. No idea where the original quote came from though.

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
 

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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:00:31 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:07:27 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 19:35:20 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:
>>
>>> Optical is the only way to go now but... sorry but I can't get past the
>>> idea of batteries. When the 'phone ones go low we always seem to be out;
>>> often as not we don't have a working flashlight when we most need it and
>>> have to search out the candles... in the dark:); the digital camera one
>>> seems to spend more time plugged in the wall than it does in the camera. I
>>> don't need another device which goes "hungry" when I really need it... when
>>> the cord is no inconvenience to me.
>>
>>Hang up the mouse when you're not calling, err mousing. It's
>>rechargeable. I've also noticed (because I don't always remember to hang
>>it up) that it will run about a day (at least eight hours) begging for a
>>recharge. There is a blinkin' red LED on its back to signal when it needs
>>a fix.
>
> Only a day - fahgedabatit... for me.:)

It's (at least) a day *after* the thing starts complaning. It's more like
a week between required fixes.

>>As far as cords go, I'm always getting them tangled or wedged between
>>the desk and wall. They're kinda like the old-style automobile
>>seatbelts. Rather pythonesque (and it's not at all funny).
>
> That's what Scotch tape was invented for.

Gack. That's even worse. I used to tie everyting up with cable ties so
it was neat. What a PITA when one wants to rearange things, or even clean
(heaven forbid ;-).

>>> Yeah we're almost there on elimination of floppies but the USB ones
>>> are $25. or so, *if* you really need one. When they offer you a T42P
>>> I'd say "yes please".:)
>>
>>As I said in another article, a friend snagged a 256MB stick for $10 at
>>Staples last weekend. At the stores here they were $30. I'll take the
>>T42p IFF my dock still works (or they fork over for that too). ;-)
>
> If the dock is a 2631, it won't work - you'd need a "Dock II" or

I *think* it's a Dock-II, but I'd have to pull the thing apart to find
out. I tend to only take the thing out of the dock every week or so
(usually not that often) since the ThinkPad must be powered off to get it
loose.

> Mini-Dock, which are backwards compatible with A2x models. There must
> be something about the new models' connector which is electrically
> different enough that they made it so T4xs won't physically fit in the
> old Docks -

I've seen some that are physically not compatable. The TP has a wart
sticking out the back that interferes with the back of the dock and
even a replicator. ...wonderful design!

> the shape and form of the connector is the same though... or
> it's just gouging.:) Here's the cross-reference:
> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4NXNTP
> If you don't need a drive bay in the Dock, the Mini-Dock looks good.

I don't need a drive in the Dock (though I would like a CD-R/W) but I *do*
need the PCI slot.

>>>>The "facts" are now out. I think they'll keep the "Think" brands,
>>>>though the IBM logo is another thing entirely.
>>>
>>> From what I read, it seemed we'll be able to buy IBM branded Thinkpads
>>> for 5 years or so at least - IOW Lenovo is just taking over management
>>> of the U.S. operation and the already exisiting sub-contracted mfr. in
>>> China.
>>
>>The issue of the "Think" brand was murky, IMO. It was clear that Lenovo
>>was going to use the color IBM logo for five years. BTW, they also get
>>the manufacturing iin Mexico (I think it's still there for the 'T'
>>series) and the Sanmina-SCI sub-contracts.
>
> Somehow I don't think the Chinese are going to get along with the
> Mexican work style, as I've heard it put.;-)

Not everyting is darkness.

> From the blurb at the IBM
> Web site, IBM seems to be falling over itself to push Lenovo as a
> worthy, reputable inheritor. It appears that in China they are
> considered a top quality brand so things may work out well. It's also
> possible that the association gives IBM some leverage to build out its
> services contracts business in China down the road.

That's sorta what they've been feeding the insiders too. Everything is
peaches and cream! ...it may just be.

> Did you catch Mikey's take on it:
> http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118868,00.asp ? He's gotta be
> worried about this. I dunno how Dell sits in China just now but I'd
> think the IBM brands must add some cachet to the Lenovo line in their
> home market and maybe the Pacific Rim in general.

There must be something in it for 'em. ThinkPads are a great line,
but the rest is rather weak, IMO. We'll see.

--
Keith
 
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:09:00 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:00:31 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:07:27 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>>>Hang up the mouse when you're not calling, err mousing. It's
>>>rechargeable. I've also noticed (because I don't always remember to hang
>>>it up) that it will run about a day (at least eight hours) begging for a
>>>recharge. There is a blinkin' red LED on its back to signal when it needs
>>>a fix.
>>
>> Only a day - fahgedabatit... for me.:)
>
>It's (at least) a day *after* the thing starts complaning. It's more like
>a week between required fixes.

Ah OK, I'll think on it.:)

>> Mini-Dock, which are backwards compatible with A2x models. There must
>> be something about the new models' connector which is electrically
>> different enough that they made it so T4xs won't physically fit in the
>> old Docks -
>
>I've seen some that are physically not compatable. The TP has a wart
>sticking out the back that interferes with the back of the dock and
>even a replicator. ...wonderful design!

Forward compatible is always difficult.

>> the shape and form of the connector is the same though... or
>> it's just gouging.:) Here's the cross-reference:
>> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4NXNTP
>> If you don't need a drive bay in the Dock, the Mini-Dock looks good.
>
>I don't need a drive in the Dock (though I would like a CD-R/W) but I *do*
>need the PCI slot.

Might as well shoot for the DVD +/- R/RW - no?

>>>The issue of the "Think" brand was murky, IMO. It was clear that Lenovo
>>>was going to use the color IBM logo for five years. BTW, they also get
>>>the manufacturing iin Mexico (I think it's still there for the 'T'
>>>series) and the Sanmina-SCI sub-contracts.
>>
>> Somehow I don't think the Chinese are going to get along with the
>> Mexican work style, as I've heard it put.;-)
>
>Not everyting is darkness.

From what I gather one of the probs of mfr in Mexico is electricity sags -
if not darkness, some err, brownness? All I've heard is that companies in
Mexico fall down at the RFQ stage - they don't seem to understand what the
buyer expects as a response.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
 
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:11:13 -0500, Tony Hill

>Any time I still need to use a floppy disk these days I always make
>sure to have AT LEAST two copies of the same disk because the chance
>of one failing is so high. That's something I almost never have to
>worry about with CDRs (sure, they do die, but at only a very tiny
>fraction of how often floppies die).

Yep - I also use diskettes in pairs, and ideally, matching pairs at
that (so you can switch on an ARF prompt). Most of the dead CDRs I
see, die because the paint has been scratched off :)

Diskettes still work best for some field work here, such as av
scanning - I can update daily on the same 6 (2 x 3) diskettes for a
month or few, and I don't have to fret about no-CD or old-CD drives
that can't read multisession CDRs, or those that can't boot off a USB
flash stick. Then again, if you don't see as much old hardware as I
have to, you can make the jump sooner!

Looking at the desk right now, there are 2 new PC builds, 2 ATX
generation PCs, one pre-ATX with 4-speed CD, and a no-CD PS/1.

Fortunately I'm usually spared the IBM PS/1s, but pre-ATX systems are
still common, as are duff or can't-read-CDR optical drives.



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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 19:14:37 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Win9x)"
<cquirkenews@nospam.mvps.org> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 14:11:13 -0500, Tony Hill
>
>>Any time I still need to use a floppy disk these days I always make
>>sure to have AT LEAST two copies of the same disk because the chance
>>of one failing is so high. That's something I almost never have to
>>worry about with CDRs (sure, they do die, but at only a very tiny
>>fraction of how often floppies die).
>
>Yep - I also use diskettes in pairs, and ideally, matching pairs at
>that (so you can switch on an ARF prompt). Most of the dead CDRs I
>see, die because the paint has been scratched off :)
>
>Diskettes still work best for some field work here, such as av
>scanning - I can update daily on the same 6 (2 x 3) diskettes for a
>month or few, and I don't have to fret about no-CD or old-CD drives
>that can't read multisession CDRs, or those that can't boot off a USB
>flash stick. Then again, if you don't see as much old hardware as I
>have to, you can make the jump sooner!

Fortunately I only rarely have to deal with PCs that are outside of
their original warranty (if they are I most just refer them over to
people like you :> ), so usually no more than 3 years old. Mind you,
the PC that I usually have at work is an old PII 400MHz that's pushing
6 years old!

>Looking at the desk right now, there are 2 new PC builds, 2 ATX
>generation PCs, one pre-ATX with 4-speed CD, and a no-CD PS/1.
>
>Fortunately I'm usually spared the IBM PS/1s, but pre-ATX systems are
>still common, as are duff or can't-read-CDR optical drives.

Hmm.. one ATX system with a floppy and no CD (though I don't think the
floppy is plugged in and it definitely does not work properly, it's
just there for looks :> ), as well as rear USB ports that should boot,
though I haven't tested them. Of course that one is just a
router/firewall and it basically never gets rebooted (just for kernel
updates about once a year). It will also soon be replaced by a
wireless router when I have money after xmas.

Second system is a small form factor box (Antec Aria case... very
snazzy) with a micro-ATX board, CD-RW and bootable 8-in-1 flash reader
as well as bootable front-USB ports, but no floppy. Then my main
desktop has a bootable CD-RW, bootable front USB, a non-bootable DVD
and a floppy (which may or may not work).

So I've got one out of three that can boot from a floppy, one that can
boot from memory cards (SD, Compact Flash, etc.) two that can boot
from either CDs or USB keys and one that if it goes down I have to rip
it apart and grab something from my spare parts bin to get it booting
again :>

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
 

keith

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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 03:46:06 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:

> On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:09:00 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 02:00:31 -0500, George Macdonald wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 10:07:27 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>>>Hang up the mouse when you're not calling, err mousing. It's
>>>>rechargeable. I've also noticed (because I don't always remember to hang
>>>>it up) that it will run about a day (at least eight hours) begging for a
>>>>recharge. There is a blinkin' red LED on its back to signal when it needs
>>>>a fix.
>>>
>>> Only a day - fahgedabatit... for me.:)
>>
>>It's (at least) a day *after* the thing starts complaning. It's more like
>>a week between required fixes.
>
> Ah OK, I'll think on it.:)

Oh yee of little faith...

>>> Mini-Dock, which are backwards compatible with A2x models. There must
>>> be something about the new models' connector which is electrically
>>> different enough that they made it so T4xs won't physically fit in the
>>> old Docks -
>>
>>I've seen some that are physically not compatable. The TP has a wart
>>sticking out the back that interferes with the back of the dock and
>>even a replicator. ...wonderful design!
>
> Forward compatible is always difficult.

Backwards compatability only takes some care though.

>>> the shape and form of the connector is the same though... or
>>> it's just gouging.:) Here's the cross-reference:
>>> http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-4NXNTP
>>> If you don't need a drive bay in the Dock, the Mini-Dock looks good.
>>
>>I don't need a drive in the Dock (though I would like a CD-R/W) but I *do*
>>need the PCI slot.
>
> Might as well shoot for the DVD +/- R/RW - no?

Come on! Do you think I work for someone with real *money* to spend?
Sheesh, I'm just asking for what Santa *might* bring. ...not the red
Ferrari! ;-)

>>>>The issue of the "Think" brand was murky, IMO. It was clear that Lenovo
>>>>was going to use the color IBM logo for five years. BTW, they also get
>>>>the manufacturing iin Mexico (I think it's still there for the 'T'
>>>>series) and the Sanmina-SCI sub-contracts.
>>>
>>> Somehow I don't think the Chinese are going to get along with the
>>> Mexican work style, as I've heard it put.;-)
>>
>>Not everyting is darkness.
>
> From what I gather one of the probs of mfr in Mexico is electricity sags -
> if not darkness, some err, brownness? All I've heard is that companies in
> Mexico fall down at the RFQ stage - they don't seem to understand what the
> buyer expects as a response.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. I remeber when
Japan was threatening our very existence by buying Rockefeller Center in
NYC (the home of NBC, BTW). ...from the Dutch, no less. Before that it
was the "Arabs" buying the country up. Funny, neither ever came close to
being #2.

--
Keith
 
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On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:27:30 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>> Still, I should probably grab a spare set of batteries sometime, just in
>> case.
>
>I buy batteries by the dozens. I understand Home Despot has Duracell AA
>30-packs for about $10. Next time I'm over there (and have been about 75%
>of the days for the past month) I'll grab a pack.

They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada?? For mine I
just pop a pair into the mouse, a pair in the charger and swap as
necessary. Been doing that for more than a year already on the same
four batteries. Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again
and again.
--
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If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
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"The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in
message news:41bfa161.815431984@news.singnet.com.sg...
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:27:30 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
> They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada?? For mine I
> just pop a pair into the mouse, a pair in the charger and swap as
> necessary. Been doing that for more than a year already on the same
> four batteries. Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again
> and again.
> --
> L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
> If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
> :)
> Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
> If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
> But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

They sell all kinds of recharagble batteries here in the US... I should
know, I worked at Radio Shack for 6 months... It's just that most people are
turned off by the up front cost that goes along with them. You can easily
spend $20 for 6 batteries (not sure how accurate that figure actually is
anymore, but it's ball park). Most people have trouble thinking about the
long term savings.

Carlo
 

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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:30:17 +0000, The little lost angel wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:27:30 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>> Still, I should probably grab a spare set of batteries sometime, just in
>>> case.
>>
>>I buy batteries by the dozens. I understand Home Despot has Duracell AA
>>30-packs for about $10. Next time I'm over there (and have been about 75%
>>of the days for the past month) I'll grab a pack.
>
> They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada??

Sure. I've had rechargable batteries for about 40 years ('68, at least).
They really aren't good for many applications, particularly those with
high capacity or low current demands. Rechargables don't have the
capacity of primary cells and have a very high self-discharge rate,
limiting their usefulness in these applications. Add to that the initial
expense and the need to "baby" them somewhat, and they really aren't good
for many applications. I'd *never* use them for smoke alarms or
flashlights (torches, for you right-pondians), for instance. Rechargables
work for optical mice because of the relatively high current draw of the
LED/LASER immumination, but relative ease of recharging. They're not so
good for mice with balls, because the high self-discharge approaches the
charge life. Likewise, they're terrible for flashlights and other
emergency equipment. Primary cells are far better for many such
applications.

> For mine I just pop a pair into the mouse, a pair in the charger and swap as
> necessary. Been doing that for more than a year already on the same
> four batteries. Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again
> and again.

That may or may not be true. Self-discharge is a PITA. If one has to
maintain a standby pair... Keeping NiCd's and particularly NiMH's on
constant charge is a *very* bad idea. They're great for medium - high
current draws where recharging is acceptable, but they don't work well in
low current applications or where high-capacity is needed. Alkaline
batteries are far better in these applications.

--
Keith
 

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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:55:08 -0500, Carlo Razzeto wrote:

> "The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in
> message news:41bfa161.815431984@news.singnet.com.sg...
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:27:30 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>>
>> They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada?? For mine I
>> just pop a pair into the mouse, a pair in the charger and swap as
>> necessary. Been doing that for more than a year already on the same
>> four batteries. Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again
>> and again.
>> --
>> L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
>> If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
>> :)
>> Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
>> If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
>> But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
>
> They sell all kinds of recharagble batteries here in the US... I should
> know, I worked at Radio Shack for 6 months... It's just that most people are
> turned off by the up front cost that goes along with them. You can easily
> spend $20 for 6 batteries (not sure how accurate that figure actually is
> anymore, but it's ball park). Most people have trouble thinking about the
> long term savings.

They may be that expensive drom Radio Shaft, but likeeveryting
RadioShaft sells there are better places to buy ($20 for a 9V 600ma
wall wart?)

The fact is that rechargables aren't the panacea you're pretending that
they are.

--
Keith
 
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:37:47 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:55:08 -0500, Carlo Razzeto wrote:
>> "The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in
>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:27:30 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

>>> They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada??
>>> Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again and again.

>> They sell all kinds of recharagble batteries ... most people are
>> turned off by the up front cost that goes along with them.

>...rechargables aren't the panacea you're pretending that they are.

They don't last forever, that's fer sure (esp. if nicked).

I've a bright idea: Why not use a dedicated socket on the PC that
offloads demand on USB, and then run a wire from the mouse to that
socket so it can draw power from the PC?



>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
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>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
 
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In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.chips The little lost angel <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote:
> They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada??

They most certainly do, and I make heavy use of the newer
NiMH 1800-2000 mAh AA cells. They work great in high-drain
devices like dig.cameras, Gameboys and portable CD players.

Rechargeables work poorly in low-drain devices like clocks
and mice. They have a self-discharge coefficient around 1%
per day. You'll need to swap every month or two. Clock
batteries last 1+ year. AFAIK, mice batteries ~6 months.

-- Robert
 

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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:54:02 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 23:37:47 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>>On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:55:08 -0500, Carlo Razzeto wrote:
>>> "The little lost angel" <a?n?g?e?l@lovergirl.lrigrevol.moc.com> wrote in
>>>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 21:27:30 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>
>>>> They don't sell rechargeable batteries in US or Canada??
>>>> Definitely cheaper than buying non-rechargeables again and again.
>
>>> They sell all kinds of recharagble batteries ... most people are
>>> turned off by the up front cost that goes along with them.
>
>>...rechargables aren't the panacea you're pretending that they are.
>
> They don't last forever, that's fer sure (esp. if nicked).
>
> I've a bright idea: Why not use a dedicated socket on the PC that
> offloads demand on USB, and then run a wire from the mouse to that
> socket so it can draw power from the PC?

Dedicated socket? Isn't that whay we *have* USB? Why not a USB-powered
optical-cordless mouse? USB should be able to deliver enough power to
charge small batteries. ...not that I want anything to do with USB mice
(though likely won't have any choice, sooner than later)

--
Keith
 
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On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:20:12 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:54:02 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

>> I've a bright idea: Why not use a dedicated socket on the PC that
>> offloads demand on USB, and then run a wire from the mouse to that
>> socket so it can draw power from the PC?

>Dedicated socket? Isn't that whay we *have* USB? Why not a USB-powered
>optical-cordless mouse? USB should be able to deliver enough power to
>charge small batteries. ...not that I want anything to do with USB mice
>(though likely won't have any choice, sooner than later)

I was being obnoxiously retro, and thinking PS/2 rather than USB. If
you have a PS/2 socket, then why not put the mouse there, and free up
the USB load? May avoid some "can't USB from this OS" problems too.

USB can charge batteries and power lamps, but when you have "too many"
USB gadgets attached, it's usually a power draw thing. Knowing that
battery chargers are made to budget, and how batteries can pull juice,
we may see adverse effects on other USB devices at times.

OTOH, PS/2 is a drag if you forget to plug in the mouse before power
up (strangely, PS/2 keyboards don't seem to mind)



>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
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>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
 

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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:41:56 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:20:12 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:54:02 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
>
>>> I've a bright idea: Why not use a dedicated socket on the PC that
>>> offloads demand on USB, and then run a wire from the mouse to that
>>> socket so it can draw power from the PC?
>
>>Dedicated socket? Isn't that whay we *have* USB? Why not a USB-powered
>>optical-cordless mouse? USB should be able to deliver enough power to
>>charge small batteries. ...not that I want anything to do with USB mice
>>(though likely won't have any choice, sooner than later)
>
> I was being obnoxiously retro, and thinking PS/2 rather than USB. If
> you have a PS/2 socket, then why not put the mouse there, and free up
> the USB load? May avoid some "can't USB from this OS" problems too.

I wuz trying to figure out your game, but "obnoxious" wouldn't be a word
I would have used...

If I have a PS2 socket, I'm certainly going to use it. My bitch is that
they're taking it away for no good reason. I don't see a USB mouse as
having any advantage over a PS/2 mouse. ...even though many boards have
*six* USB ports.

> USB can charge batteries and power lamps, but when you have "too many"
> USB gadgets attached, it's usually a power draw thing. Knowing that
> battery chargers are made to budget, and how batteries can pull juice,
> we may see adverse effects on other USB devices at times.

Sure, but you simply don't have enuff USB ports! ;-)

> OTOH, PS/2 is a drag if you forget to plug in the mouse before power up
> (strangely, PS/2 keyboards don't seem to mind)

THe keyboard is assumed. The system will look elsewhere for the pointing
device and forget the PS/2 port after it gives up. My bet is that USB
keyboards will be the next "invention" to break the PC.

--
Keith


>
>>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
> On the 'net, *everyone* can hear you scream
>>---------- ----- ---- --- -- - - - -
 
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:26:59 GMT, Rob Stow <rob.stow.nospam@shaw.ca>
wrote:
>Maybe someone needs to make a mouse like those flashlights and
>radios that have no battery and no power cord: just squeeze
>a lever or crank a little handle for a minute and it works
>for half an hour. :-D

That might be the most strenuous workout some of us computer geeks get
in the entire day! :>

-------------
Tony Hill
hilla <underscore> 20 <at> yahoo <dot> ca
 
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:26:59 GMT, Rob Stow <rob.stow.nospam@shaw.ca>
wrote:

>
>Maybe someone needs to make a mouse like those flashlights and
>radios that have no battery and no power cord: just squeeze
>a lever or crank a little handle for a minute and it works
>for half an hour. :-D

That gives me an idea!!! They already have kinetic power watches why
not the same with a mouse? Put some of that kinetic mechanism inside
there and we would be powering the mouse simply by using it. *goes &
file a patent on self-replenishing pointing device* :ppPpPp

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me :)
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code
 
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The little lost angel wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 04:26:59 GMT, Rob Stow <rob.stow.nospam@shaw.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Maybe someone needs to make a mouse like those flashlights and
>>radios that have no battery and no power cord: just squeeze
>>a lever or crank a little handle for a minute and it works
>>for half an hour. :-D
>
>
> That gives me an idea!!! They already have kinetic power watches why
> not the same with a mouse? Put some of that kinetic mechanism inside
> there and we would be powering the mouse simply by using it. *goes &
> file a patent on self-replenishing pointing device* :ppPpPp
>

Marion: "Barry! What the h*ll are you doing there by the computer ?"
Barry: "Just shaking my mouse, dear."
Marion: "Don't do that here! The children might see you."
 

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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 03:38:14 +0000, Bill Davidsen wrote:

> Keith R. Williams wrote:
>
<snip>

>> I used alkalines for the M$ mice because they lasted 3-6 months, which
>> puts them on the outer edge of where rechargeables make sense. My
>> Logitech MX-700 mice are rechargeable (and use standard AA NiCd
>> batteries).
>
> As noted, around here you can get 50 AA for about $10-12, and several
> stores have recycle tubs. Where I work I also have a tub, and I dump the
> family batteries into it occasionally. I think you hit the point when
> you noted "outer edge" of the curve, for most people it makes little
> overall.
>
> That said, I still use corded mice, I lose the cordless ones all the
> time, the IR connected ones don't work in the positions I want to, etc,
> etc. I don't knock them, I just don't use them, not to mention needing
> special drivers for them in many cases.


"Lose"? HTF do you *lose* a mouse? Despite their name they're rather
immobile by themselves. I've never seen an IR mouse, the ones I've used
are RF, and are quite position insensitive. Special drivers? My MX700
works fine on my Linux system here and even works on my RS-6000 at work
(where the KVM switch gets squirrely). The special drivers are only needed
for special functions unique to the rodent, not for base mouse operation.

--
Keith
 
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:41:56 +0200, "cquirke (MVP Win9x)"
<cquirkenews@nospam.mvps.org> wrote:

>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 22:20:12 -0500, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
>>On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:54:02 +0200, cquirke (MVP Win9x) wrote:
>
>>> I've a bright idea: Why not use a dedicated socket on the PC that
>>> offloads demand on USB, and then run a wire from the mouse to that
>>> socket so it can draw power from the PC?
>
>>Dedicated socket? Isn't that whay we *have* USB? Why not a USB-powered
>>optical-cordless mouse? USB should be able to deliver enough power to
>>charge small batteries. ...not that I want anything to do with USB mice
>>(though likely won't have any choice, sooner than later)
>
>I was being obnoxiously retro, and thinking PS/2 rather than USB. If
>you have a PS/2 socket, then why not put the mouse there, and free up
>the USB load? May avoid some "can't USB from this OS" problems too.

It's kinda amazing that we've had USB for ~8(?) years now and there are
still glitches with it - either devices are intermittently detected,
especially if plugged in permanently, or software which should run in the
background insists on sitting in the taskbar. Makes you think that maybe
there's a err, flaw in the concept??;-)

BTW I have both of the above right now.

>USB can charge batteries and power lamps, but when you have "too many"
>USB gadgets attached, it's usually a power draw thing. Knowing that
>battery chargers are made to budget, and how batteries can pull juice,
>we may see adverse effects on other USB devices at times.

There is one interesting device from A4Tech -- one of the few companies
which actually makes keyboards & mice AFAIK -- which uses a USB connection
from a special mousepad to power the mouse inductively:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=26-123-131&depa=0/
I dunno what it is but something makes me feel uncomfortable about this
arrangement... the sort of thing you'd want to at least see and touch
before buying.

>OTOH, PS/2 is a drag if you forget to plug in the mouse before power
>up (strangely, PS/2 keyboards don't seem to mind)

Used to be that plugging in either would often blow a fuse on the mbrd
IIRC.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??