Infinite vault guards exploit

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

In 3.4.3 there appear to be infinite vault guards. At first I thought
it was a bug because I was hallucinating, but now I realize that it is
all the time. This can easily be exploited.

When the vault guard comes, kill him. This is easiest if you have a few
wands of sleeping and reflection, in case they have a wand. Even still
you may be down a good bit of health. Just wait a few turns and another
vault guard will come. Say you are Croesus, and keep repeating this
until you are at full health. Then kill the next vault guard, and
repeat. Keep doing this until you have as much experience as you want.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alex Krupp wrote:
> Then kill the next vault guard, and
> repeat. Keep doing this until you have as much experience as you
want.

Alternatively, explore the dungeon and find monsters. When you find
one, kill it. Keep going until you have as much experience as you
want.

I fail to see how that is exploitation unless the monsters come
carrying a regular supply of some useful item. Maybe wands? I guess
elves could eat the guards without penalty.

- John H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alex Krupp wrote:

>> Alternatively, explore the dungeon and find monsters. When you find
>> one, kill it. Keep going until you have as much experience as you
>> want.
>
> Well with the vault guards, you know that they are the only type of
> monster you will pretty much encounter since you are stuck in a 2x2
> vault. Further more, any time you don't want to be attacked you can just
> tell them you are Croesus. So it is easier because they are all exactly
> the same, there are no other monsters to attack, they don't gang up on
> you, and you can stop to rest as long as you want every time you finish
> one.

Generally, however, increasing experience without also finding new items is
a bad idea, no matter how easy it is.

--
Benjamin Lewis

I regret to say that we of the FBI are powerless to act in cases of
oral-genital intimacy, unless it has in some way obstructed interstate
commerce. -- J. Edgar Hoover

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

> Alternatively, explore the dungeon and find monsters. When you find
> one, kill it. Keep going until you have as much experience as you
> want.

Well with the vault guards, you know that they are the only type of
monster you will pretty much encounter since you are stuck in a 2x2
vault. Further more, any time you don't want to be attacked you can just
tell them you are Croesus. So it is easier because they are all exactly
the same, there are no other monsters to attack, they don't gang up on
you, and you can stop to rest as long as you want every time you finish
one.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 17:36:46 -0800, Benjamin Lewis <bclewis@cs.sfu.ca>
wrote:

>Alex Krupp wrote:
>
>>> Alternatively, explore the dungeon and find monsters. When you find
>>> one, kill it. Keep going until you have as much experience as you
>>> want.
>>
>> Well with the vault guards, you know that they are the only type of
>> monster you will pretty much encounter since you are stuck in a 2x2
>> vault. Further more, any time you don't want to be attacked you can just
>> tell them you are Croesus. So it is easier because they are all exactly
>> the same, there are no other monsters to attack, they don't gang up on
>> you, and you can stop to rest as long as you want every time you finish
>> one.
>
>Generally, however, increasing experience without also finding new items is
>a bad idea, no matter how easy it is.

Especially if you're playing as a human, and can't use any of the
corpses as food without suffering the consequences.

(Wow, long time since I've been here...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alex Krupp wrote:
> Well with the vault guards, you know that they are the only type of
> monster you will pretty much encounter since you are stuck in a 2x2
> vault.

This is actually not true, sometimes the monster generation does
produce monsters in vaults, and there's no way to get *away* from them
in that instance.

Also, rock moles, xorns and dwarfs with pick-axes will still be able to
find you.

- John H.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"John H." <JohnWH@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Alex Krupp wrote:
>> Well with the vault guards, you know that they are the only type of
>> monster you will pretty much encounter since you are stuck in a 2x2
>> vault.
>
>This is actually not true, sometimes the monster generation does
>produce monsters in vaults, and there's no way to get *away* from them
>in that instance.

The monster generation code will try very hard indeed to not generate
monsters where the player can see them. Given the tiny percentage of
the level's area represented by the interior of a magic memory vault...

On the other hand, the UH/rock mole/dwarf/earth elemental point is very
important.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alex Krupp wrote:
>
> In 3.4.3 there appear to be infinite vault guards. At first I thought

> it was a bug because I was hallucinating, but now I realize that it
is
> all the time. This can easily be exploited.
>
> When the vault guard comes, kill him. This is easiest if you have a
few
> wands of sleeping and reflection, in case they have a wand. Even
still
> you may be down a good bit of health. Just wait a few turns and
another
> vault guard will come. Say you are Croesus, and keep repeating this
> until you are at full health. Then kill the next vault guard, and
> repeat. Keep doing this until you have as much experience as you
want.

Because of the price I thought this existed in all versions.

Kill a guard and it is murder. You lose telepathy and
floating eyes don't leave corpes all that often. You lose
a point of luck. Given that luck moves toward zero on a
time scale of (about 100 turns? I didn't look it up so I
just remember a 3-digit number. All I need for this is a
3-digit number), and guards appear about every 30 turns
(I didn't look it up but it's a 2-digit number). So if
you kill more and more guards your luck goes down and down
and down. Keep at thislong enough and eventually your
luck will be so bad that your attempts to hit will miss
and/or do less damage and one of those guards will win
the fight.

If you stop at some point you will be able to recover from
the lost telepathy, the lost luck, and the lost alignment
points. It would take a lot of sacraficing and some
praying after that. So before doing this be very certain
you have a co-aligned altar on some level *first*. It
could be a very bad idea to very lotsof negative luck,
very poor alignment points, and need to convert an altar
to recover from this vault guard effort.

The good points - Guards have armor and weapons. Not
great armor and weapons like captains, but for a character
who hasn't made it to Ludios yet to encounter lots of
assorted soldiers it's an okay hoard.

If you're going to do this with vault guards and pay that
price, maybe it would be better to take out the folks in
minetown. Watch captain, watch men, and the priest if
(s)he is cross-aligned. There's art to doing that without
getting killed, and the recovery effort is around the same.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Laura M. Parkinson wrote:

> (Wow, long time since I've been here...)

Welcome back. Have you been stuck in a vault?

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alex Krupp wrote:
> When the vault guard comes, kill him. This is easiest if you have a few
> wands of sleeping and reflection, in case they have a wand. Even still
> you may be down a good bit of health.

> Keep doing this until you have as much experience as you want.

When I need some exp, I just camp at a temple for a bit. The ghosts are
very slow, don't do almost any damage and give pretty good exp. It
takes below 15 minutes to go from xlev 10 to xlev 14. No murderer
issues, too.

The thing you mentioned with the guard sounds like a bug to me. The
messages we occasionally get suggest there is just one guard per vault,
so once he dies, he should stay dead -- or perhaps he can have a
replacement, but after X time, where X > a few. Something around 1k
turns would prevent people from being trapped, and yet it would hamper
the abuse.

Besides, both ghosts and vault guards should obey extinction IMO -- the
former because I fail to see anything scary in 1000th ghost I kill in a
single swing, and the former because Croesus' staff can't be infinite.

1KB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> writes:
> The thing you mentioned with the guard sounds like a bug to me. The
> messages we occasionally get suggest there is just one guard per
> vault, so once he dies, he should stay dead -- or perhaps he can have
> a replacement, but after X time, where X > a few.

I don't see anything in the vault messages that suggests there's only
one. (One at a _time_, maybe, but "You hear the footsteps of a guard
on patrol." is pretty inconclusive even on that point.) So the current
value of X as 30 doesn't seem particularly unreasonable; Croesus likes
his vaults checked regularly.

--
: Dylan O'Donnell http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/ :
: "You boil it in sawdust: you salt it in glue: / You condense it with :
: locusts and tape: / Still keeping one principal object in view -- / :
: To preserve its symmetrical shape." [ Lewis Carroll, "THotS" ] :

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On 04 Mar 2005 10:22:43 +0000, psmithnews@spod-central.org (Dylan
O'Donnell) wrote:

>Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> writes:
>> The thing you mentioned with the guard sounds like a bug to me. The
>> messages we occasionally get suggest there is just one guard per
>> vault, so once he dies, he should stay dead -- or perhaps he can have
>> a replacement, but after X time, where X > a few.
>
>I don't see anything in the vault messages that suggests there's only
>one. (One at a _time_, maybe, but "You hear the footsteps of a guard
>on patrol." is pretty inconclusive even on that point.) So the current
>value of X as 30 doesn't seem particularly unreasonable; Croesus likes
>his vaults checked regularly.

And considering the amount of cash on hand he's got (until you rob
Ludios, anyway), it's not surprising he'd be able to find near-instant
replacement guards. It's not like the job requirements are
spectacularly difficult, nor does the post demand a great deal of
intelligence.

"You're Croesus? Even though you appear to be a dwarf wielding a
flaming sword and are quickly grabbing all the loot you can find and
stashing it in that bag?..."

" ...all right then, carry on."

--
Keiran

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Alex Krupp wrote:

> Further more, any time you don't want to be attacked you can
> just tell them you are Croesus.

Note that this won't work anymore after you've finished Fort Ludios.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski wrote:

> Besides, both ghosts and vault guards should obey extinction IMO --
> the former because I fail to see anything scary in 1000th ghost I
> kill in a single swing, and the former because Croesus' staff can't
> be infinite.

The latter former also because once he's dead, they should, after a
while, discover that they're not getting their pay anymore.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
> Adam Borowski wrote:
>>Besides, both ghosts and vault guards should obey extinction IMO --
>>the former because I fail to see anything scary in 1000th ghost I
>>kill in a single swing, and the former because Croesus' staff can't
>>be infinite.
>
> The latter former also because once he's dead, they should, after a
> while, discover that they're not getting their pay anymore.

I meant more the abuse mentioned in the OP -- I would expect that even
if Croesus is still alive, they don't have a horde of guards running
from one vault to the next. To me, it looks like the guard is sitting
somewhere nearby, close enough to arrive in just a few turns when he
hears commotion in the vault he's guarding. If the guard departs to the
Happy Hunting Grounds, the vault will be unguarded. This would make new
players trapped, so the guard would probably get a replacement, but
nowhere close to a few turns.


About the "former former" blunder: I perhaps should be asking for a
brown paper bag, but considering what happened the last time I said
"paint me an idiot", this probably isn't the best idea

1KB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski wrote:
> Boudewijn Waijers wrote:
>> Adam Borowski wrote:

>>> Besides, both ghosts and vault guards should obey extinction IMO --
>>> the former because I fail to see anything scary in 1000th ghost I
>>> kill in a single swing, and the former because Croesus' staff can't
>>> be infinite.

>> The latter former also because once he's dead, [...]

> About the "former former" blunder: I perhaps should be asking for a
> brown paper bag, but considering what happened the last time I said
> "paint me an idiot", this probably isn't the best idea

To confuse things even more, it was the latter former that was a
blunder, not the other, former, former.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:43:23 +0100, "Boudewijn Waijers"
<kroisos@REMOVETHISWORD.home.nl> wrote:

>Laura M. Parkinson wrote:
>
>> (Wow, long time since I've been here...)
>
>Welcome back. Have you been stuck in a vault?

Heh, just been busy, and thus drifted away from newsgroups for a long
while. Once I stopped reading/posting religiously, it took me a while
to get around to getting back to it.


Laura M. Parkinson

stormfeather [at] atlanticbb [dot] net to email

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> wrote in news:d09atn$psk$1
@nemesis.news.tpi.pl:

> Alex Krupp wrote:
>> When the vault guard comes, kill him. This is easiest if you have a few
>> wands of sleeping and reflection, in case they have a wand. Even still
>> you may be down a good bit of health.
>
>> Keep doing this until you have as much experience as you want.
>
> When I need some exp, I just camp at a temple for a bit. The ghosts are
> very slow, don't do almost any damage and give pretty good exp. It
> takes below 15 minutes to go from xlev 10 to xlev 14. No murderer
> issues, too.

Huh? What do you mean a temple? I'm not aware of any temples ... are you
talking about the attended altar in Minetown? As far as I was aware, the
only time you saw ghosts was on the rogue level and in
graveyards/cemetaries. Am I not aware of something?


--
~ Cyde Weys ~
So say we all.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> wrote in news:d09atn$psk$1
> @nemesis.news.tpi.pl:
>
>
>>Alex Krupp wrote:
>>
>>>When the vault guard comes, kill him. This is easiest if you have a few
>>>wands of sleeping and reflection, in case they have a wand. Even still
>>>you may be down a good bit of health.
>>
>>>Keep doing this until you have as much experience as you want.
>>
>>When I need some exp, I just camp at a temple for a bit. The ghosts are
>>very slow, don't do almost any damage and give pretty good exp. It
>>takes below 15 minutes to go from xlev 10 to xlev 14. No murderer
>>issues, too.
>
>
> Huh? What do you mean a temple? I'm not aware of any temples ... are you
> talking about the attended altar in Minetown? As far as I was aware, the
> only time you saw ghosts was on the rogue level and in
> graveyards/cemetaries. Am I not aware of something?
>
>

An altar with a priest next to it is called a temple. So, yes, it's just
an attended altar would be referred to as a temple.

Ghosts can, in addition to the circumstances listed above, appear on
bones levels, depending on how the previous character was killed. They
can appear inside milky potions as well.

-----
____ (__)
/ \ (oo) -Shadow
|Moo. > \/
\____/

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:
> Adam Borowski <kilobyte@mimuw.edu.pl> wrote in news:d09atn$psk$1
>>When I need some exp, I just camp at a temple for a bit. The ghosts are
>>very slow, don't do almost any damage and give pretty good exp. It
>>takes below 15 minutes to go from xlev 10 to xlev 14. No murderer
>>issues, too.
>
> Huh? What do you mean a temple? I'm not aware of any temples ... are you
> talking about the attended altar in Minetown? As far as I was aware, the
> only time you saw ghosts was on the rogue level and in
> graveyards/cemetaries. Am I not aware of something?

Who says "attended"? What about those cross-aligned altars where an
evil guy strolled in, declared he hates the priest's god and sacrificed
the priest on his own altar just because there was no other convenient
altar shallow in the dungeon? What about those careless adventurers in
blessed fixed greased +3 gray dragon scale mails not keeping their
draconic kids leashed? What about those greedy bastards who wanted a
refund of that 90k gold they donated mere seconds ago?

The ghosts are pretty annoying during a sac fest, too...

1KB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

Cyde Weys wrote:

> Huh? What do you mean a temple? I'm not aware of any temples ...
> are you talking about the attended altar in Minetown? As far as I
> was aware, the only time you saw ghosts was on the rogue level and in
> graveyards/cemetaries. Am I not aware of something?

A room with an altar and an attending priest is called a temple.
When you kill the priest, it's still called an (abandoned) temple.

When you enter an *abandoned* temple, there is always a chance of an
enormous ghost being created.

--
Boudewijn Waijers (kroisos at home.nl).

The garden of happiness is surrounded by a wall so low only children
can look over it. - "the Orphanage of Hits", former Dutch radio show.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

"Doug Freyburger" <dfreybur@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Kill a guard and it is murder. You lose telepathy and
>floating eyes don't leave corpes all that often. You lose
>a point of luck.

Neither of these penalties applies for a chaotic character (and the
penalty for non-chaotics is *two* points of luck, not *one*). The
alignment penalty for killing an always-generated-peaceful monster still
applies, however, so the player's alignment will rapidly end up rammed
hard against the negative limit.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.nethack (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 10:44:21 +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:

> Besides, both ghosts and vault guards should obey extinction IMO -- the
> former because I fail to see anything scary in 1000th ghost I kill in a
> single swing, and the former because Croesus' staff can't be infinite.

Especially not when his payroll keeps being stolen.

--
"We are setting a standard for the rest of the world in the treatment
of people who may have loyalties to an enemy nation. We are protecting
ourselves without violating the principles of Christian decency."
Milton S. Eisenhower, "Japanese Relocation" (1943 propaganda film)