Intel, AMD, And Reseller Success: A System Builder Weighs In

[Guest]

Last week, the EU fined Intel $1.45 billion dollars, citing abuse of its position in the market by giving rebates to manufacturers in exchange for exclusive use of Intel CPUs. System builder Jon Bach weighs in with his opinion of why Intel is on top.

Intel, AMD, And Reseller Success: A System Builder Weighs In : Read more

 

[SpadeM]

Notice that at no point in this column did I talk about performance of AMD versus Intel.

Nope, no you didn't say anything about performance. But if I were to read lines of this statement:

If we focused on the value segment, as some builders do, I'm sure we'd see more demand for AMD CPUs. As a boutique outfit that focuses primarily on high-performance, highly reliable computers, we simply see larger demand for Intel CPUs.

I'd come to believe that: AMD = great value but not reliable or a high performance part; Intel = not a great value but it's high performance and reliable.

That aside, AMD has a weak marketing strategy because it's the smaller company of the two listed here, so I'd expect Intel to send a footman along with it's processors to system builders.

All in all I don't quite understand the point of this "article", I mean the man himself said things that we already know about Intel vs. fair competition so ... what's to learn from this piece?

 

[bucifer]

Was this some kind of advertising for Intel? Of course they sell more CPUs to system builders because AMD had no competitive product for a couple of years and when it finally did Intel made sure it would not sell, by offering rebates for rejecting or delaying similar AMD systems.

This is why EU fined Intel in the first place. AMD never had a chance to get back in the game. It's like playing poker with 1000$ against someone with 1$ million. It kind of hard to get up.

You keep repeating that AMD should connect better with system builders but you fail to see that the system builders themselves did not connect by accepting the rebates from Intel for delaying or denying AMD products.

I do agree that AMD needs to be more competitive, hopefully it will soon be and we won't see 1000$ CPUs anymore.

 

[DarkMantle]

I have read this site for a long time but this is my first comment, after reading this article and thinking that there is some truth in what Jon Bach say, i also went to his site pugetsystems.com and made an AMD built and then compared it to a newegg amd built and after comparing the 2 of them i realise why his site fails at selling amd computers.

pugetsystems.com

Asus M4A79-T Deluxe DDR3
AMD Phenom II X4 940 125W AM3
Kingston Value 4GB DDR3-1333 (2x2GB)
ATI Radeon HD 4850 1GB
Western Digital Caviar Black SATA2 640GB QUIET
Pioneer 20x DVD-RW SATA (black)
Antec Nine Hundred
Corsair TX 650W
Stock CPU Fan (AMD64)
Standard Warranty: Lifetime Labor, 1 Year Parts

System Price: $1,428.22


newegg.com

ASUS M4A79T Deluxe AM3 DDR3 AMD 790FX ATX AMD Motherboard
AMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition Deneb 3.2GHz Socket AM3 125W
Kingston ValueRAM 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333
SAPPHIRE 100258-1GHDMI Radeon HD 4850 1GB 256-bit GDDR3
Western Digital Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb
Pioneer 20X CD/DVD Burner Black SATA
Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS

Subtotal: $914.43 (with rebates), 1059.93 (no rebates)

Not only was i surpriced by the lack of options, but also by the huge plus his company charge on a computer, when you buy AMD you are probably looking for a good but cheap solution, but for the price he is charging i rather go buy an Intel computer on newegg.

 

[curnel_D]

[citation][nom]DarkMantle[/nom]I have read this site for a long time but this is my first comment, after reading this article and thinking that there is some truth in what Jon Bach say, i also went to his site pugetsystems.com and made an AMD built and then compared it to a newegg amd built and after comparing the 2 of them i realise why his site fails at selling amd computers.pugetsystems.comAsus M4A79-T Deluxe DDR3AMD Phenom II X4 940 125W AM3Kingston Value 4GB DDR3-1333 (2x2GB)ATI Radeon HD 4850 1GBWestern Digital Caviar Black SATA2 640GB QUIETPioneer 20x DVD-RW SATA (black)Antec Nine HundredCorsair TX 650WStock CPU Fan (AMD64)Standard Warranty: Lifetime Labor, 1 Year Parts System Price: $1,428.22newegg.comASUS M4A79T Deluxe AM3 DDR3 AMD 790FX ATX AMD MotherboardAMD Phenom II X4 955 Black Edition Deneb 3.2GHz Socket AM3 125WKingston ValueRAM 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333SAPPHIRE 100258-1GHDMI Radeon HD 4850 1GB 256-bit GDDR3Western Digital Caviar Black WD6401AALS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0GbPioneer 20X CD/DVD Burner Black SATAAntec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer CaseCORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUSSubtotal: $914.43 (with rebates), 1059.93 (no rebates)Not only was i surpriced by the lack of options, but also by the huge plus his company charge on a computer, when you buy AMD you are probably looking for a good but cheap solution, but for the price he is charging i rather go buy an Intel computer on newegg.[/citation]
Every single computer manufacturer in existance sells at a markup. They're not running a distrobution, they're running a buisness reliant on sales profit. Infact, without rebates, the less that 400 dollars with a LIFETIME labor warranty means they're actually pulling a much smaller margin compared to competing High end system builders.
Not only that, but the intel machines will see the SAME exact percentage markup.

Should have reserved your first comment for something with more thought.

 

[bigdaddycool]

This entire article discusses nothing. It's someone's opinion and that is all.

From what I read the entire sole backing factor of this is that the LGA775 socket has the locking cover over the CPU which means they dont come loose during transit.

Are you kidding me? That may be a GREAT feature, but how about the stupid 775 actual heatsinks? .... the four clips that go directly into the board and unless done properly can bend it etc.

Compare. AMD: Yes no clippable cover over the cpu but better heatsink mount then Intel. = Should not come loose during transit. Intel has no pins, AMD has pins (again makes the connection longer into the socket).

Moving onto performance, since when are AMD unreliable? ... Socket A series? ...... By todays market standard both are equal. Power vs Performance, AMD uses usually less then Intel, Intel uses slightly more but also had a bit more performance. Therefore both cpu's are fairly balanced.

Where I work, we built computers according to customers requirements. We actually used to sell 95% Intel, after 3 years we are now selling about 60% AMD, 40% INTEL. Intels are better for heavy duty stuff like video encoding, autocad etc. AMD's are better for everyday usage and for the price on the X2 6000 series, you cant beat the performance vs price factor for 90% of customers.

Now look at the i7's ..... they cain in peformance but also fail at scaling in game resolutions. AMD Phenom II, not as fast..... but faster in other ways.

Intel got fined because "they have money" .... they have "money" .... and thus can employee more people, give more away, charge more money.... they are a big company, with alot of market power. The point the EU's fine wasn't anything to do with AMD other then there were one of the complaining parties.

It's about how they used 'unhanded' tactics to deal with big business.

As for all the System Builders out there who winge at AMD and back Intel for their various reasons saying how Intel offers this and AMD doesn't.

1. Any company you turn your back on cannot help you
2. If everyone ignores AMD products are available how is AMD ever going to make enough money to make courtosy calls to resellers? give promossions etc.
3. OLD FUDDY DUDDIES/KNOW IT ALLS. So stuck in your ways you cannot take a step back and validate a product for what it can actually do.

***

To top off this discussion. The entire article comparing reasons to use Intel and not AMD is actually pointless.

Reliability. Motherboards, Ram, Hard Drive, CDROM's, PSU are 99.9% more likely to go long before a CPU.

More examples:

1. ASUS P4S800MX, P4 3.0Ghz overtaxed the mobo, dead.
2. Use of seagate hdd's, fail. (.7 faster, .7 going to fail quicker)
3. Norton (any version) .... does it matter what CPU you have?
4. AMD Packaging vs Intel ? ... No difference.
5. Intel's FAN vs AMD's FAN = No difference.
6. Power consumption = virtually the same.
7. Performance Differences = Both CPU's offer surpreme performance each in their own area's over their competition cpu's.
8. Price. E8400 or X2 6000+. Performance vs Value = AMD

****

At the end of the day, in my sole opinion. It's about what your customers require....

Once upon a time my boss used to be embarrased to sell AMD. He was always of the opinion everyone knows Intel, they have TV Ads.

Now he's neither here nor there. He's taken the approach of using us techs what to use for various applications. He realised the only problem that existed with selling AMD's wasn't AMD but his attitude towards their cpu's. We've found fewer problems with AMD setups with the 780G chipset compared to the Intel's with the G31, P31 & P45's etc.

AMD offer a platform, cpu, video, chipset....

Intels market share will fall either way, because their CPU's are too expensive for most.

I personally own a Phenom II Quad 3Ghz, 8GB RAM, RAID etc... the other tech at work owns a i7 2.66 clocked to 3ghz, same sort of setup. There is virtually no difference other then he had to goto a expensive x58 mobo, ddr3 and buy a exp cpu.

And compare his to mine, 780G chipset built for Blu-Ray, 12 usb ports. i have HDMI, DVI AND VGA on my mobo......

The winner ultimately is AMD for CPU choice. You buy Intel only for bragging rights..... but it doesn't mean it's going to be faster for everyday usage.

Sorry for the long post. Perhaps mine should of been the article huh.

 

[tacoslave]

i bought my phenom II system because i only had 900 dollars and it allowed me to get a wayyyyyy better set of graphics cards. other that that the difference in other tasks is only seconds and im not willing to pay a huge premium for seconds. and for some people 100 or 200 dollars is huge.

 

[IzzyCraft]

[citation][nom]curnel_D[/nom]Every single computer manufacturer in existance sells at a markup. They're not running a distrobution, they're running a buisness reliant on sales profit. Infact, without rebates, the less that 400 dollars with a LIFETIME labor warranty means they're actually pulling a much smaller margin compared to competing High end system builders. Not only that, but the intel machines will see the SAME exact percentage markup. Should have reserved your first comment for something with more thought.[/citation]
Also he didn't get the exact same parts they are nice enough to list the model numbers and stats of just about every product they use.

 

[DarkMantle]

curnel_D - are you kidding? what kind of margin is that?, i can buy an i7 920 with pretty much the same components (except for the case and PSU) in HP web site with monitor of 23", Windows Vista, extended service plan, mouse and keyboard for 1543 bucks, yeah HP sucks but then again the comp is ready to work out of the box and is an Intel solution, only thing i'm saying is that with that kind of "margins" you will allways have a hard time selling an AMD solution.

 

[bigdaddycool]

DarkMantle. Typical comment. "I can get a HP". You get get a Dell too buddy. Premade systems use cheap parts hence the CHEAPER price. Doesn't really come down to Intel VS AMD does it? ... if you've got a seagate/maxtor hdd..... dodgy ram etc. Not to mention 90% of the Premades have bad case design.... hdd being vertical, big heatsink and lack of airflow.....

tisk tisk. I wil make no further comments about this article.

 

[curnel_D]

[citation][nom]DarkMantle[/nom]curnel_D - are you kidding? what kind of margin is that?, i can buy an i7 920 with pretty much the same components (except for the case and PSU) in HP web site with monitor of 23", Windows Vista, extended service plan, mouse and keyboard for 1543 bucks, yeah HP sucks but then again the comp is ready to work out of the box and is an Intel solution, only thing i'm saying is that with that kind of "margins" you will allways have a hard time selling an AMD solution.[/citation]
Aside from what you priced at bare min to pull out that i7, everyone knows that High end system builders do not compete with mainstream manufacturers. Infact, if you would have gone for HP's 'gaming' system over their mainstream system, we would have seen a drastically different picture.

And that's not figuring in the fact that HP's have no possibility for overclocking. And that they're built on an assembly line and only customized after they get to your area by inexperienced temp workers working for something barely above min wage.

It costs money to plan, professionally build, package and deliver a custom built enthusiest computer. Money that even hp will charge a whole lot extra for if you'd bothered to be unbiased.

Lets face it, buying custom computers isnt for you. If you can built your own, then you'll always save a ton more money. But the people that cant arent going to visit newegg.com and expect to get custom built computers based on distro prices.

You're bashing a single system builder for a practice that every single other system builder takes part in.

So if you think you can offer high end pre-configured enthusiest level PC's for a few hundred dollars lower, then by all means, get it done. If you undercut every single boutique builder in the market, while still offering their level of quality and support, you'll obviously make a killing on that 30-50 dollar profit margin, wont you?

 

[IzzyCraft]

Speaking of HP makes me sad when i think about voodooPC

 

[DarkMantle]

Well you are quite right about that, to be honest with you i dont live in USA i live in South America and i have worked for Computer selling company here for quite some time, after the cost of importating the parts, taxes and all we mostly make a 100-150 dollars in profits at most, we also sell pre-built brand name computers that mostly sell to the people that will never look prices for parts and want the easiest solution to start using their computers and the brand bragging rights (yes, believe or not in here having a brand name computer gives you bragging rights).
Probably my english was not good enough to explain my point of view, but as i see in this article the guy is mostly saying that Intel sell alot more than AMD in his company, and that this it is AMD fault. For us we sell 70% AMD because AMD solutions give us better margins than Intel, for the price of a custom Intel solution most of our clients run away to a pre-built computer, because they know the brands from TV, our avarage entusiast costumers are about 10% of our market, they know what they want and will chose Intel mostly, but thats just not enough to keep business going.

 

[anamaniac]

[citation][nom]bigdaddycool[/nom]Perhaps mine should of been the article huh.[/citation]

Ha. Maybe.
Both the article and your comment were an interesting read.

I understand somewhat why OEMs would prefer Intel in the first place. The company is bigger.
A bigger company is better known and has better support.
Would you rather be the friend of a popular, strong, rich man or a weak and unknown guy?

I like both companies myself.
AMD for value, Intel for power. That is my opinion.
Hell my next system may only be a dual core, because I don't need anything more. I like the AMD KUMA cores so far. A tri-core would also do me well. I have no need for anything more.
Howver I also want a i7 just for its raw power.
Best clock efficiency and overclocks like a champ. The cheapest i7 costs a little bit more than the most expensive phenom.

 

[curnel_D]

[citation][nom]DarkMantle[/nom]Well you are quite right about that, to be honest with you i dont live in USA i live in South America and i have worked for Computer selling company here for quite some time, after the cost of importating the parts, taxes and all we mostly make a 100-150 dollars in profits at most, we also sell pre-built brand name computers that mostly sell to the people that will never look prices for parts and want the easiest solution to start using their computers and the brand bragging rights (yes, believe or not in here having a brand name computer gives you bragging rights).Probably my english was not good enough to explain my point of view, but as i see in this article the guy is mostly saying that Intel sell alot more than AMD in his company, and that this it is AMD fault. For us we sell 70% AMD because AMD solutions give us better margins than Intel, for the price of a custom Intel solution most of our clients run away to a pre-built computer, because they know the brands from TV, our avarage entusiast costumers are about 10% of our market, they know what they want and will chose Intel mostly, but thats just not enough to keep business going.[/citation]
I also wouldnt be suprised to know that your cost of buisness is a whole lot lower as well.

And as far as the article goes, it is totally AMD's fault for their position in the market. As far as the enthusiest market went, AMD was top dog till the core 2. So we're counting intels long tiresome spin with Pentium 4 and Pentium Dualcore. And when intel used all their extra cash to pay for some real RnD, it payed off in a big way. And AMD has constantly ruined their public opinion (And no, I'm not talking about the enthusiests who commonly read this site) by not being able to offer anything to combat intel aside from a violent pricing scheme that's driven them close to bankruptcy. This type of thing eventually filters down to the 'mass', and as we've seen with vista, once they've got it in their mind that something's bad, you cant change it very easily. So where's AMD's 300 million dollor advertising program?

Couple that with the personal attention system builders are getting with intel, and the added cost to support that Jon Back is talking about and it makes it hard to sell an AMD CPU, specially in an enthusiest level market where your average customer will research enough to know much more about performance than 'intel > amd'.

Basically this article tells us that AMD's marketing team is shooting the bull while instead they should be out selling these chips. And if they dont, it doesnt matter how much the EU robs from intel, AMD will still fail.

 

[ohim]

This article shouldn`t even exist on this site with remarks like "AMD is not reliable and intel is" seriously how the f**k can you post such an article ?

 

[DarkMantle]

"So where's AMD's 300 million dollar advertising program?".
That is a good question, we dont see any kind of AMD advertizing around this parts at least not im my country, but you can see Intel's logo everywhere.
My country is probably a tiny part of AMD business, but still. On countries that the avarage monthly salary is about 200 US$, a cheaper computer is what most people want, and intel doesnt really help the small business all that much with their prices in here, we really get almost the same incentives from them as we get from AMD, in short... nothing. When you have to grab a US price and then add the shipping cost and then add a 30% tax and then another 19% tax, AMD is the way to go for most of the people needs.

 

[IzzyCraft]

[citation][nom]ohim[/nom]This article shouldn`t even exist on this site with remarks like "AMD is not reliable and intel is" seriously how the f**k can you post such an article ?[/citation]
If AMD was reliable then they would have been reliable enough not to be in debt for 4 years.

 

[JohnMD1022]

Now, if you are a really small builder, say 3-4 systems a month, you get no support from anyone. You build what the customer wants. In my case, that translates to a lot of sub-$1000 systems. I specialize in systems for people who want something better than HP/Dell/eMachines/etc, but don't want to pay boutique builder prices.

Consequently, I use more AMD processors than I do Intel. Better deal for the customer. This does not imply prejudice towards AMD. I can and do build Intel systems when that is what fits the customer's needs.

What I do not do is build junk. I have seen zero difference between AMD and Intel in terms of reliability. I wish I could say the same about hard drives.

At one point, last year, I had 9 dead Seagates in my shop at one time. I recently returned 2 drives to Seagate under warranty. One of the replacements was DOA. What good is the 5 year warranty when they replace it with the same junk?

 

[ohim]

[citation][nom]IzzyCraft[/nom]If AMD was reliable then they would have been reliable enough not to be in debt for 4 years.[/citation]
you got it wrong, why do you care as a reseller if AMD has debt or not, if their product is good and they can suply it to you you can sell it, you don`t go and tell people that that brand is not reliable ... with this kind of resellers no wonder AMD has problems. And looking at a comment above with that kind of price practice they have vs newegg no wonder, ofc no customers will ask for AMD based products from them because they can find much cheaper AMD products elsewhere, is not AMDs fault here it`s the reseller`s fault, and as a reseller when you talk about reliable you talk about performance / power consumption / stability / quality of the product ... this guy just said by AMD is not reliable .. that translates they make defective CPUs ... he`s a total retard with his statement.

 

[strikker1]

Boy,this guy sure knows his AMD stuff, being all up to date with the K6 line of processors. Oh, and the rebates are sure nice that intel gives, just ask nVidia how great they are for the ION platform where just the atom cpu cost $45 BUT if you buy the 3 chipset bundle it only cost $25. The rebates were sure great when, i think it was for the first xbox, MS was going to use Athlons but at the very last minute went with Celerons, which were far, far inferior. I'm sure intel didn't do anything "illegal" there either. This stuff doesn't even mention all the reports of intel "bullying" customers into going with there products. Where there's smoke, there's fire and you can barely see a foot in front of your face with all the smoke from intels "practices" in how they push there product.
I have never heard of processors coming out of their sockets before. I would rather risk the processor coming out than have the motherboard bend and crack. I'd say more than 50% of the reviews for heatsinks that I have read all have problems when installing heatsinks on intel motherboards with those pushpins, a good deal saying the motherboard has so much pressure that it bends. I can't recall problems with heatsinks for AMD since they started using sockets 939/754 forward.
Its just like the guy said, all of it has nothing to do with performance. I'm sure he didn't push AMD even when there lowest performance 3800+ X2 was wiping the floor with Pentium dual core EE $1000 processors. Until C2D, AMD had been ahead since the Thunderbird cache came out on the first K7s. Anyone remember how long a run that was? If it wasn't for AMD, intel would still be selling pentium III's and they would probably cost you about $3000 for just the processor.

 

[ohim]

And i`m still a little bit amazed how this guy never looked back at AMD since K6 line processor ... well on what planet did he lived when Intel got only Pentium 4 and AMD was mopping the floor with them with Athlons 64 ? that period was still bad and AMD didn`t sell at all against those P4 ? how the hell can you make an article based on this guys words ...

 

[SpadeM]

All in all I don't quite understand the point of this "article", I mean the man himself said things that we already know about Intel vs. fair competition so ... what's to learn from this piece?

the answer is:

Basically this article tells us that AMD's marketing team is shooting the bull while instead they should be out selling these chips. And if they dont, it doesnt matter how much the EU robs from intel, AMD will still fail.

So AMD is making CPUs but doesn't know how to sell them or don't want to sell them, and the EU is the devil for bullying the small company called Intel. Thanks for the clarifications.

 

[gomi]

I haven't heard any cases of AMD cpu coolers falling off during transit, if they're properly boxed and packaged that shouldn't be a problem.
Also not keeping up with the latest AMD chips because AMD doesn't send a representative is a bad excuse. If you're in the business of selling computers you should be up to date on the latest tech news anyway.

 

[shqtth]

There is a lock on the the AMD socket that prevents the heatsink+fan from comming off.

Never had this probkem of heatsinks falling off.

I know on itel and amd motherboards, when I take off the heatsink sometimes the cpu may be stuck and come out due to the thermal paste.

I think its funny when that happens. That is usally a sign of too much thermal paste!!!!

But never ha da heatsink fall off. Maybe you are not installing them properly?





---------

I agree AMD kicked intel in the nuts, and made Intel more competitive.

If it wasn't for AMD, intel would still be stuck with Pentium 3s, and I doubt dual core would exist.

Intel Came out with P4 (big joke) to to faster then AMD since technically AMD came out with a 1GHz cpu first.

So like I said we would still be at p3s if it wasn't for AMD.