News Intel Core i5-12600K vs Ryzen 5 5600X and 5800X Face Off: Ryzen Has Fallen

[TerryLaze]

Tier prices for Alder Lake went up from previous generation Rocket Lake. So, not really sure what you are talking about here.

5950x performance at $200 lower price...
even though the 12900k is the direct competitor to the 5900x and priced accordingly.

 

[TerryLaze]

No, the vast majority of the market already has a PC, but most of the market definitely does not have an AM4 platform to take advantage of their upgrade pathways. There are generally 3 camps of people.

1. You have a 3-4+ year old PC and are looking to get a new PC or make a small upgrade to the current one to make it last longer. (vast majority)
2. You have a laptop or no desktop PC and are in the market for a new one.
3. You have a relatively modern 2 years old or newer PC and want to upgrade even though you probably don't need to, but rather just want new tech.

So for two out of three of your list there is no difference because they need a whole new PC.

 

[helper800]

So for two out of three of your list there is no difference because they need a whole new PC.

No the difference is that they already have a PC, which means you do not necessarily need a new PC. There are upgrade paths to them the vast majority of time that is multitudes cheaper that buying a whole new PC

 

[logainofhades]

Tier prices for Alder Lake went up from previous generation Rocket Lake. So, not really sure what you are talking about here.

Intel didn't have a choice, but keep prices down, to compete with Zen 3. Now that they are back on top, they naturally will charge more, just as AMD did going from Zen 2 to Zen 3. Given how much better Alder Lake is, compared to Rocket Lake, the extra $50ish for the 12600k is justifiable, on price/performance. You are getting 4 more cores, yes they are E cores, but still you are getting a 10c/16t cpu, vs a 6c/12th cpu that is also slower.

 

[spongiemaster]

No, the vast majority of the market already has a PC, but most of the market definitely does not have an AM4 platform to take advantage of their upgrade pathways. There are generally 3 camps of people.

1. You have a 3-4+ year old PC and are looking to get a new PC or make a small upgrade to the current one to make it last longer. (vast majority)
2. You have a laptop or no desktop PC and are in the market for a new one.
3. You have a relatively modern 2 years old or newer PC and want to upgrade even though you probably don't need to, but rather just want new tech.

No, I meant most people in the market for a new CPU, will buy a whole new system, ie starting from scratch, not upgrade just the CPU.

 

[spongiemaster]

Intel didn't have a choice, but keep prices down, to compete with Zen 3. Now that they are back on top, they naturally will charge more, just as AMD did going from Zen 2 to Zen 3. Given how much better Alder Lake is, compared to Rocket Lake, the extra $50ish for the 12600k is justifiable, on price/performance. You are getting 4 more cores, yes they are E cores, but still you are getting a 10c/16t cpu, vs a 6c/12th cpu that is also slower.

Intel hasn't kept prices down, they have gone up every generation since Skylake as core count has increased. The reason Intel is "undercutting" AMD now is because AMD's prices have skyrocketed, not because Intel has gotten thrifty and dropped prices. The 5950x has an MSRP of $800. 5 years ago, when Intel was dominating, the thought of an $800 "mainstream" CPU would have been absurd. People were losing their minds over Intel charging that much for HEDT CPU's. With Intel finally moving to 10nm, the 12900k die size (~208mm) is much smaller than the 11900k die size (~281mm), yet they are still charging more. The combined die sizes for the 5950x are the same as the die size of the 11900k, so Intel despite charging less for the 12900k, is likely generating more revenue per wafer than AMD is.

 

[logainofhades]

The overall package, of Alder Lake is bigger, than what we have seen for the last decade, or so, on mainstream. Being more expensive, than Skylake makes sense as the 9th-11th are overall more powerful chips, with more cores/threads vs Skylake. They charged less for those i5's than what the 7700k went for, while having more cores, with the 10th and 11th having more cores, and threads. Given the 14nm +++++, adding more cores costs more, yet we got more performance, on i5, than Skylake i7, for less cost.

The 7700k was $349, at launch, but due to low supply both the 6700k and 7700k were over inflated, on price. I remember seeing the 6700k at over $400, on newegg, before I finally bought one.
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/54737/intels-new-kaby-lake-based-core-i7-7700k-cost-349/index.html

The 8700k had similar issues, with price.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-core-i7-8700k-price-increase,37877.html


The i5 hasn't changed price, between the 9th and 11th gen chips. The Intel recommended customer price is the same, for all 3. ($262-$272)

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...r-9m-cache-up-to-4-60-ghz/specifications.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...0600k-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-to-4-90-ghz/specifications.html?wapkw=11600k

10th and 11th gen we got better than 8700k performance, for much less price. 9th gen was just a weird product stack, in general.

The 12600k Intel recommended customer price is $289.00 - $299.00. Not exactly a huge markup, for quite a bit more performance, and more cores/threads.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-to-4-90-ghz/specifications.html?wapkw=12600k

 

[tuxedo_93]

Avg fps across all tests difference, 158 vs 151 = 7 fps. That is 5%. 15 fps would be 10%. Best of all, you wouldn't notice the difference unless you are running a monitoring program or benchmark to compare.
And that is at 1080p. At 1440p it is 3 fps. So 2%. That is very close to margin of error, I assume. So same performance at twice the power, I would know which one to get. Electricity isn't free.

They do not compare it with Gentoo and a compiled kernel specific for the processor. They just take the easy (stupid) way.
When you really optimize it would be clear that AMD get less temperature and is faster.

 

[spongiemaster]

The overall package, of Alder Lake is bigger, than what we have seen for the last decade, or so, on mainstream. Being more expensive, than Skylake makes sense as the 9th-11th are overall more powerful chips, with more cores/threads vs Skylake. They charged less for those i5's than what the 7700k went for, while having more cores, with the 10th and 11th having more cores, and threads. Given the 14nm +++++, adding more cores costs more, yet we got more performance, on i5, than Skylake i7, for less cost.

The 7700k was $349, at launch, but due to low supply both the 6700k and 7700k were over inflated, on price. I remember seeing the 6700k at over $400, on newegg, before I finally bought one.
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/54737/intels-new-kaby-lake-based-core-i7-7700k-cost-349/index.html

The 8700k had similar issues, with price.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-core-i7-8700k-price-increase,37877.html


The i5 hasn't changed price, between the 9th and 11th gen chips. The Intel recommended customer price is the same, for all 3. ($262-$272)

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...r-9m-cache-up-to-4-60-ghz/specifications.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/u...0600k-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-80-ghz.html

https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-to-4-90-ghz/specifications.html?wapkw=11600k

10th and 11th gen we got better than 8700k performance, for much less price. 9th gen was just a weird product stack, in general.

The 12600k Intel recommended customer price is $289.00 - $299.00. Not exactly a huge markup, for quite a bit more performance, and more cores/threads.
https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...-to-4-90-ghz/specifications.html?wapkw=12600k

I was referring to the flagship model. As I said, prices have gone up as core count has increased. The i5 has only seen 2 bumps, from original 4 going all the way back to 6 cores with the 8 series, and then 6 with E cores for Alder Lake. They picked up hyper threading along the way, but that didn't cost Intel anything to add, since it was there all along, and artificially removed.

6700k - $339
7700K - $350
8700K -$359
9900K - $499
10900k - $488
11900k - $539
12900k - $589

6 new generations, 5 price increases resulting in about a 75% total increase over the 6700k with only the 10 series seeing a slight drop. That's not keeping prices down.

 

[logainofhades]

I was referring to the flagship model. As I said, prices have gone up as core count has increased. The i5 has only seen 2 bumps, from original 4 going all the way back to 6 cores with the 8 series, and then 6 with E cores for Alder Lake. They picked up hyper threading along the way, but that didn't cost Intel anything to add, since it was there all along, and artificially removed.

6700k - $339
7700K - $350
8700K -$359
9900K - $499
10900k - $488
11900k - $539
12900k - $589

6 new generations, 5 price increases resulting in about a 75% total increase over the 6700k with only the 10 series seeing a slight drop. That's not keeping prices down.

You are paying more for the chip, but the price per core price is down. The only exception being the 7700k, vs the pricing of the 6700k.
6700k - $84.75
7700k - $87.50
8700k - $59.83
9900k - $62.38
10900k - $48.80
11900k - $67.38 (This chip is an abomination that shouldn't have existed.)
12900k - $36.81

 

[larkspur]

A few days later, and a few pages more of comments and we still see the same thing:

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/FfT67X

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600K 3.7 GHz 10-Core Processor ($299.99 @ Adorama)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Pure Rock 2 CPU Cooler ($39.90 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4 ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($209.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team T-Create Expert 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($59.49 @ Amazon)
Total: $609.37
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-11-17 15:42 EST-0500

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/TzKNht

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600X 3.7 GHz 6-Core Processor ($299.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI B550-A PRO ATX AM4 Motherboard ($139.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team T-Create Expert 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($59.49 @ Amazon)
Total: $498.48
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-11-17 14:08 EST-0500

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/VBB2t8

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 3.8 GHz 8-Core Processor ($374.00 @ Newegg)
CPU Cooler: be quiet! Pure Rock 2 CPU Cooler ($39.90 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI B550-A PRO ATX AM4 Motherboard ($139.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team T-Create Expert 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($59.49 @ Amazon)
Total: $613.38
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-11-17 15:44 EST-0500

12600k vs 5600x: 12600k is ~$110 more (Or less if you choose to upgrade the 5600x included Wraith Stealth cooler which is not great but technically sufficient) for:

5% faster gaming performance, 21% faster performance in single-threaded work, and 38% more performance in multi-threaded applications.

12600k vs 5800x: 12600k is same total price for:

3% faster in gaming, 15% faster in single-threaded work, and 7% faster in multi-threaded productivity applications.

Not sure why the argument continues...

The 5600x platform pricing continues to be headscratching here in the US. Especially for multi-threaded apps it loses hard to the 12600k but only saves you $110 (Or less if you choose to upgrade the 5600x included cooler) . For games using anything other than a 3090 and 1080p you might as well buy a 10400/11400 or R5 3600 (if the price is right) for less $$ than either of these. Or wait for the 12400 - depending on street price it will likely become the most obvious choice.

The 5800x platform is slightly beat by a 12600k (although we can say they 'trade blows') and is priced the same. Adding in the distinct connectivity advantages of the z690 board (compare the two motherboards storage options, USB ports, etc.) and it becomes a win for Intel.

Those who are upgrading from a Zen 2 to Zen 3 CPU, well alrighty then! If I had anything coffee lake or higher I certainly wouldn't be upgrading until Zen 4 or Meteor Lake (and probably not even then). For gaming - I don't think its worth it unless you have less than a 6 core. It's well-agreed that unless you are running a 3090 and 1080p the fps difference is pretty negligible. For content creation / pro applications, sure grab a 5950x its a beast. Heck, get a Threadripper! But maybe you should wait for Zen 3D?

Edited to add the cost of a cooler for the 12600k to compensate for the 5600x included cooler. While the Pure Rock 2 isn't exactly a great cooler, it is better than the stock Wraith Stealth.

 

[Phaaze88]

@larkspur
12600K and 5800X don't come with a cooler, right? 5600X includes the crappy Wraith Stealth, but it's better than nothing for some users.

 

[larkspur]

@larkspur
12600K and 5800X don't come with a cooler, right? 5600X includes the crappy Wraith Stealth, but it's better than nothing for some users.

True. I haven't used an included cooler since the Pentium 4 days and I wouldn't recommend using one to anyone. Likewise, I don't buy "cheap" motherboards. But yes, there are some out there that will use the included cooler and stick a 5600x in a sub-$100 mobo - that's fine and good luck with that. But I think $40 for lower temps, potential increased longevity and quieter operation is well worth it. I still have a 2009 Asus P6TD Deluxe board with a 2010 i7-980x @ 4ghz running here with a Noctua something-something tower cooler. I think AMD should sell a 5600x without a cooler for less $$ - I don't need to spend any more money on paperweights (looking at three Intel stock coolers sitting on shelf [including the decent "tower-style" i7-980x stock cooler]) But, yes, I stand corrected and will edit the post accordingly.

 

[Why_Me]

A few days later, and a few pages more of comments and we still see the same thing:

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/RbKBNP

CPU: Intel Core i5-12600K 3.7 GHz 10-Core Processor ($299.99 @ Adorama)
Motherboard: MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4 ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($209.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team T-Create Expert 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($59.49 @ Amazon)
Total: $569.47
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-11-17 14:07 EST-0500

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/TzKNht

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 5600X 3.7 GHz 6-Core Processor ($299.00 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: MSI B550-A PRO ATX AM4 Motherboard ($139.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team T-Create Expert 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($59.49 @ Amazon)
Total: $498.48
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-11-17 14:08 EST-0500

PCPartPicker Part List: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/fjLzz7

CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5800X 3.8 GHz 8-Core Processor ($374.00 @ Newegg)
Motherboard: MSI B550-A PRO ATX AM4 Motherboard ($139.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Team T-Create Expert 16 GB (2 x 8 GB) DDR4-3600 CL18 Memory ($59.49 @ Amazon)
Total: $573.48
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2021-11-17 14:08 EST-0500

12600k vs 5600x: 12600k is ~$70 more expensive for:

12600k vs 5800x: 12600k is same total price for:

Not sure why the argument continues...

The 5600x platform pricing continues to be headscratching here in the US. Especially for multi-threaded apps it loses hard to the 12600k but only saves you $70. For games using anything other than a 3090 and 1080p you might as well buy a 10400/11400 or R5 3600 (if the price is right) for less $$ than either of these. Or wait for the 12400 - depending on street price it will likely become the most obvious choice.

The 5800x platform is slightly beat by a 12600k (although we can say they 'trade blows') and is priced the same. Adding in the distinct connectivity advantages of the z690 board (compare the two motherboards storage options, USB ports, etc.) and it becomes a win for Intel.

Those who are upgrading from a Zen 2 to Zen 3 CPU, well alrighty then! If I had anything coffee lake or higher I certainly wouldn't be upgrading until Zen 4 or Meteor Lake (and probably not even then). For gaming - I don't think its worth it unless you have less than a 6 core. It's well-agreed that unless you are running a 3090 and 1080p the fps difference is pretty negligible. For content creation / pro applications, sure grab a 5950x its a beast. Heck, get a Threadripper! But maybe you should wait for Zen 3D?

More like $200 for an i5 12400F and $140 for a B660 board with decent VRM's.

 

[logainofhades]

More like $200 for an i5 12400F and $140 for a B660 board with decent VRM's.

Once that actually happens, AMD will definitely have 0 choice but to lower pricing. Gotta love competition.

 

[VforV]

Maybe actually see the reviews of Alder Lake with and without DDR5 instead of making ignorant post.

What exactly you don't agree with, that DDR5 is more expensive?

 

[logainofhades]

What exactly you don't agree with, that DDR5 is more expensive?

That DDR5 is even a necessity. Your post implied as such. Complaining, about the cost of DDR5, is pointless, as you don't have to use it. DDR4 vs DDR5 performance tests have proven you don't need it. This is always the case when we get a new gen of DDR. The good fast kits of the previous gen, are generally as good, if not faster, then the initial kits of a new gen, due to latency penalty.

 

[VforV]

That DDR5 is even a necessity. Your post implied as such. Complaining, about the cost of DDR5, is pointless, as you don't have to use it. DDR4 vs DDR5 performance tests have proven you don't need it. This is always the case when we get a new gen of DDR. The good fast kits of the previous gen, are generally as good, if not faster, then the initial kits of a new gen, due to latency penalty.

Here's the thing. I like it how intel fanbois parade with the "Alder Lake has all these new features, Zen3 does not, boohoo", but as soon as someone brings up the price issue of those new features, or the early adopter issues or the fact that you can't just make a simple upgrade from last gen (like you can with Zen), but you need an entire new platform, as soon as someone says that, those same intel fanbois will say "but you don't need to buy DDR5, or use Windows 11, or just wait a for cheaper MB, or just wait for 12400 SKU, because that will bla-bla-bla"...

Yeah, right... You want to brag about the best tech, then buy the best tech and pay a lot for little extra difference, you accept that and and you shut up.

If you buy Alder Lake with all the bells and whistles it is more expensive than Zen3 and depending on the tier, slightly faster. But it's also hotter, less efficient, you may need a bigger PSU, be prepared to be a beta tester with all the issues and negatives included and the list goes on.

If you buy Alder Lake as a price / perf conscious gamer, then you shoot yourself in the foot. No more future proofing, almost the same speed as Zen3 and you will need to upgrade MB and RAM again for Raptor Lake, when the time comes to actually use DDR5 because then it will make sense.

Whatever you chose it's a compromise with Alder Lake. This is a Zen1 moment for intel in many ways, so it's better to be skipped and wait for Raptor Lake.

 

[logainofhades]

LGA 1700 is expected to work with Alder Lake and Raptor Lake. You typically get 2 gens of support, on the Intel side. I wish they would be more like AMD in that regard. For the record, I rock a 5800x, and my second rig has a 3700x. All I care about is price to performance, at time of purchase. Alder Lake currently wins this round. If AMD drops their pricing accordingly, it could shift the other direction, quite easily.

 

[-Fran-]

LGA 1700 is expected to work with Alder Lake and Raptor Lake. You typically get 2 gens of support, on the Intel side. I wish they would be more like AMD in that regard. For the record, I rock a 5800x, and my second rig has a 3700x. All I care about is price to performance, at time of purchase. Alder Lake currently wins this round. If AMD drops their pricing accordingly, it could shift the other direction, quite easily.

Just to add a bit to your point and to remind people. AMD has burned customers before with sockets switcheroos they promised would last multiple gens. AM4 has been an exception so far and, I sincerely hope, AM5 follows AM4 steps and is a long lived socket.

If anyone is interested in reviewing history, check the S754 and S939 socket life, then the S941 (AM2) life and the 790FX to 890FX chipset fiasco (in my eyes at least), and then FM1 and FM2 sockets and how all 1st gen APU users (Llano) were screwed with it.

You could also argue Intel doesn't have a clean track record with it just by looking at Skylake and the Z270 chipset shenanigans, but they've been a tad more consistent than AMD in their expectations. So, I'll give Intel the benefit of the doubt here and expect the Z690 platform to have at least 2 gens.

Regards.

 

[kwohlt]

Alder Lake is for hardcore intel fanbois or enthusiasts with more money than sense that can afford a 2nd or 3rd PC (and already have a powerful Zen 3 system), so they will just build a new intel one, alongside the AMD one they already have, because they can.

Everyone else, from conscious price/perf buyers to already owners on Zen and AM4, Alder Lake is a hard pass and not that impressive.

I went on a B450 MB from Ryzen 2600 to 3600 and now to 5600x (at discount 240 euro with VAT included and after I sell my 3600, the upgrade will equal about 80 euros/100 $) - now that's a good deal.

The only good thing I have to say about Alder Lake is "thanks" for making Zen 3 cheaper. 😀

A year from now, I'll also be able to buy Zen 3D at discount after Zen4 comes and still use the same AM4 B450 motherboard... intel users can't even dream of an upgrade path like that.

So why should I want to be a beta tester of new, unpolished, unproven, buggy tech (like Alder Lake) when I can get this stability and upgrade path from AMD's Zen? For the up to 5% (maybe) more performance?

That way of thinking is silly and hilarious to me.

If you already own an AM4 CPU, like a 3700X, then obviously you would just purchase a 5000 series (if for some reason you haven't for the last year.). I don't think anyone realistically expects a Zen+ or Zen2 owner to replace everything with AlderLake. Most PC gamers do not have an AM4 board, and AM4 is at end of life - Zen 4 will not be using it next year. Zen3D is the last AM4 release...So for someone looking to build a new PC, from scratch, today, Alder Lake offers the better socket upgrade path and DDR5 can carry forward more easily. For someone already on AM4, Alder Lake makes zero sense.

 

[logainofhades]

If you already own an AM4 CPU, like a 3700X, then obviously you would just purchase a 5000 series (if for some reason you haven't for the last year.). I don't think anyone realistically expects a Zen+ or Zen2 owner to replace everything with AlderLake. Most PC gamers do not have an AM4 board, and AM4 is at end of life - Zen 4 will not be using it next year. Zen3D is the last AM4 release...So for someone looking to build a new PC, from scratch, today, Alder Lake offers the better socket upgrade path and DDR5 can carry forward more easily. For someone already on AM4, Alder Lake makes zero sense.

Agreed. There are still many people out there with systems, on older ddr3 platforms, and 6th or 7th gen ddr4 platforms. It would be silly to buy Zen 3, for those people looking to upgrade, unless they get a really good deal. Alder Lake is definitely the more sensible choice, for these people.

 

[VforV]

I'm not sure how many, means "many people" that have older PCs than 3 year old ones.

I think the majority of gamers have at least a 3 year old PC or newer and that means mostly Zen PCs and intel last gens - all these people will either stay on their current intel system (I don't see many 10th and 11th gen upgrading to Alder Lake, unless they are in the categories I stated in my post above), or if they are on AMD they are on AM4 so they can/will easily upgrade to Zen3 that's discounted now (and from now on) or wait for Zen3D, so they will stay with AMD.

So what's left, those on much older systems, they are the ones that will decide between a brand new Alder Lake or new Zen3/3D. PC But I don't think they are the majority, the ones with PCs older than 3 years... but maybe I'm wrong.

The thing is Alder Lake is not selling like crazy, it's not the incredible success intel wanted in sales (at least not now at launch), so if there are so many willing to upgrade to Alder Lake, why don't they buy it? What are they waiting?

 

[TerryLaze]

The thing is Alder Lake is not selling like crazy, it's not the incredible success intel wanted in sales (at least not now at launch), so if there are so many willing to upgrade to Alder Lake, why don't they buy it? What are they waiting?

How do you know that they aren't selling like crazy?
What is your proof?
Are you just basing this on availability? Because intel is the only company with their own fabs and they can produce cpus like nobodies business, just because everybody else has to wait in line to get a small amount of units made and thus is always sold out doesn't mean that common business practices have died out, intel was able to make enough units to keep supply high enough for prices to be low and scalpers to not be a problem.

Nobody has sale numbers and nobody knows if they sell well or not, and any "proof" we have now can be interpreted either way. Maybe they don't sell well, maybe they sell just as well as any other gen before them since we didn't see those earlier gens being out of stock either.

 

[logainofhades]

Saying they are not selling like crazy is an opinion, when no facts presented to back it up. If they are not selling like crazy, it is probably due to GPU shortages. I can easily go to Microcenter and get any Zen 3 CPU, as soon as the doors open today. There was a time, when that wasn't possible, pre GPU shortages. I bought both of my Ryzen chips there, because I couldn't get them anywhere else. Alder lake is available, in limited quantities, but they have them.