Is nobody at least rooting for AMD?

[NMDante]

I have read it and....
No...you are only sure they are reporting a loss.
The top level staff are still flying around in private jets.
The employees still draw a fine paycheck.
The accountants still manipulate the reports.
The company still produces millions of CPUs.
The partners are still backing them financially.

What?
They have been losing money by the truckload every quarter, since Q4 2006. To say they haven't is being unrealistic.
What does staff flying in jets, employees getting paid, accountants with reports, producing CPUs, or partners backing them have to do with the fact that they have lost almost $2B USD in the last 3 quarters? If anything, that same staff won't be flying around too much, employees and accountants might lose jobs, CPUs might not be produced in quantity, and partners will try to cash in on what they are promised, if they continue to lose money.

Everyone should be rooting for AMD, if your not, your a fool.

Why? AMD shot themselves in the foot, not anyone else. I don't believe they will go under, but they won't be as strong as they were in Q3 2006. How exactly does rooting for AMD not make you a fool? It's rooting for a company, that could care less about you, that makes you a fool.

 

[weskurtz81]

itotallybelieveyou,

I am curious as to how you came to the conclusion that Intel will always be a better performing CPU? AMD was leading Intel in performance through the K8 years, and only since Conroe has Intel taken a lead.

And the same thing with ATI. ATI has not always been weaker in terms of performance. ATI was the clear winner during the 9800 series, and the X1900 series was also a pretty strong competitor.

If I am not comprehending what you are trying to say just let me know.

 

[onestar]

NMDante...
I suspect you believe all you read.
Reality ...is that AMD is still in business and a 2 billion dollar loss
and STILL being in business....is not.
Rather than continued speculation, let us focus on what is real.
The nonsense will continue, the all-knowing will persist, the prophets
will prophesy, and through it all AMD, keeps on plugging away.

Even though, I recognize a superior cpu in the conroes and Kentsfield over anything AMD has produced as yet...there are still many market areas where AMD fills the need and sells the product.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

NMDante...
I suspect you believe all you read.
Reality ...is that AMD is still in business and a 2 billion dollar loss
and STILL being in business....is not.
Rather than continued speculation, let us focus on what is real.
The nonsense will continue, the all-knowing will persist, the prophets
will prophesy, and through it all AMD, keeps on plugging away.

Even though, I recognize a superior cpu in the conroes and Kentsfield over anything AMD has produced as yet...there are still many market areas where AMD fills the need and sells the product.

Yes. AMD fills the need by selling product, AT A LOSS.

AMD is having debt issues. Bond rating issues. Now is issuing SENIOR STOCK that would screw over it's normal share holders if they go belly up, but it's what they needed to do to get more funds.


Let's focus on what's real. But you know what's NOT real? This Barcelona launch thus far, that's what is NOT real.

 

[NMDante]

NMDante...
I suspect you believe all you read.
Reality ...is that AMD is still in business and a 2 billion dollar loss
and STILL being in business....is not.
Rather than continued speculation, let us focus on what is real.
The nonsense will continue, the all-knowing will persist, the prophets
will prophesy, and through it all AMD, keeps on plugging away.

Even though, I recognize a superior cpu in the conroes and Kentsfield over anything AMD has produced as yet...there are still many market areas where AMD fills the need and sells the product.

Yes, I believe everything I read, especially when they are financial reports submitted by AMD, themselves. They are called SEC filings.

AMD is still in business, yes. They loss almost $2B over the last 3 quarters, yes. How long can they continue to be in business if they continue to bleed money over the next 2 quarters? This is not speculation, but facts. Barcelona will not make an impact on the 3rd quarter this year, seeing how it ends in a few weeks. You believe that 3 weeks will make up for 2 1/2 months?

The problem isn't markets where AMD fills the need, cause those markets are the low end, which usually generates very little revenue. That won't help AMD's financial status. They cannot afford another loan, and are already $3B deep in guaranteed senior notes.
ATI revenue won't save AMD, since they too haven't been generating revenue.

This isn't about who's CPU is superior, it's about how can AMD continue to produce products in an already aggressive and competitive environment. Elegant design won't pay the bills, unless they sell them, and with the ongoing price wars, that too will have to be figured in, with the more costly Barcelona core vs. Intel's Quads. If they come out of the 3rd quarter with a loss of $250M or less, that would actually be good for them. If they loss another $250+M, the rest of the year will be bleak.

I don't believe AMD will be driven out of business, but I do think that if massive losses become the norm, AMD will restructure hard, and might even cause delays in their roadmap, which again, won't help their bottom line.

 

[paq7512]

I know that Intel has now taken the lead with the fastest cpu. But that was never was the case. I have always had Intel cpu's though. But without a good fight prices would be sky high.

 

[onestar]

AMD will be around for a while, mark my words.

Do you believe that AMD's price/performance ratio is not competitive?

May I direct your attention to the following link:
http://www23.tomshardware.com/cpu_2007.html?modelx=33&model1=946&model2=882&chart=444

Note please....that AMD occupies the first 11 tiers?
Do you think for a second, that intelligent system builders do not recognize this also? Now.....think one more second, please.....
If more bang for buck is delivered by these CPU's does it make
any real sense to spend more buck for less bang? Oh yes, I am
quite certain there are many reasons why an "enthusiast" an "old hand"
or a "nimble knuckle" might pursue better perfomance, yet Mr. joe average computer user (who just happens to be the largest computer segment) just might opt for the most bang for the least buck as the charts show.

 

[wolverinero79]

NMDante,

Although I agree with your main point, I would like to correct something...

"The problem isn't markets where AMD fills the need, cause those markets are the low end, which usually generates very little revenue. That won't help AMD's financial status. They cannot afford another loan, and are already $3B deep in guaranteed senior notes.
ATI revenue won't save AMD, since they too haven't been generating revenue. "

They've been generating a lot of revenue, just not profit. They outsold Intel in the retail market, but with money losing chips. Revenue up, profit down. Nit-picky, I know.

But I agree. To maintain MSS, AMD's been screwing their investors. Intel lowered prices, but because they could afford to - what's the GPM for Intel in Q3? Over 50% while in a pricewar? NIIIIICE! Intel may have dropped their prices initially, but subsequent price drops were from AMD's drops. So if anyone blames Intel for AMD losing money, well, you have to blame AMD for at least most of that (releasing crappy products and buying ATI doesn't help your company...).

And onestar...you might want to consider power ratings when looking at charts like that. It certainly shakes things up and AMD is definitely not in the locations they are when it's just price and performance.

 

[MadHacker]

screw AMD... go VIA hehehe

 

[onestar]

wolveriner o79...

Power ratings can make some impact, no doubt, however the largest segment of Mr. joe average computer user is perceived as more concerned with intial costs, such items as expensive Intel motherboards, or out of sight Raptor hard drives drives and Kentsfield CPU's. Said users tend toward more reasonably priced AMD boards and much more reasonably priced AMD CPU's. And it might be wise for you to consider not only the CPU's power rating but the motherboards that they sit on and the RAM requirements beyond that.

You and I might recognize the long term cost effectiveness of power ratings when factoring in the TCO of a unit, however not so, those more modestly informed.

 

[NMDante]

@wolverinero79 - you are right. I meant profit. Whoops.

wolveriner o79...

Power ratings can make some impact, no doubt, however the largest segment of Mr. joe average computer user is perceived as more concerned with intial costs, such items as expensive Intel motherboards, or out of sight Raptor hard drives drives and Kentsfield CPU's. Said users tend toward more reasonably priced AMD boards and much more reasonably priced AMD CPU's. And it might be wise for you to consider not only the CPU's power rating but the motherboards that they sit on and the RAM requirements beyond that.

You and I might recognize the long term cost effectiveness of power ratings when factoring in the TCO of a unit, however not so, those more modestly informed.

The problem is - Mr. Joe Average Computer User won't build their own system, but buy a pre-built box, so the expensive Intel motherboard, Raptor, or any other individual component price won't come into play. The $399 desktop/$599 laptop is what Mr. Joe Average is looking at.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

AMD will be around for a while, mark my words.

Do you believe that AMD's price/performance ratio is not competitive?

Yes, but the issue is that they need to MAKE MONEY. That's what companies with shareholders do. If they don't make money they will become financially insolvent and file for bankruptcy.

 

[onestar]

Of course they need to make money and it would seem that only by selling more product can that accomplish that end. They certainly can not sell more CPUs by pricing them higher than better perceived CPUs.
So they have cut prices and margins in order to do just that. They have addressed the markets in the way they can compete. The market has responded by buying more AMD CPU's.

It remains to be seen if that response has been and will be, sufficient to quiet such foreboding as seen amongst the naysayers.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

Of course they need to make money and it would seem that only by selling more product can that accomplish that end. They certainly can not sell more CPUs by pricing them higher than better perceived CPUs.
So they have cut prices and margins in order to do just that. They have addressed the markets in the way they can compete. The market has responded by buying more AMD CPU's.

It remains to be seen if that response has been and will be, sufficient to quiet such foreboding as seen amongst the naysayers.

I'm trying to lay this out for you.



Let's say it costs you $100 to make a processor.

Let's say you sell it for $95.

You lose $5 for selling a product.


So if you sell 1 processor at a $5 loss or if you sell 5,000,000 at a $5 loss, it's still a loss.

 

[onestar]

TC...Thank you ever so much for the quick lesson in basic economics.

Now, that we understand the level at which you wish to discuss AMD's finances, let us discover if you realize the covert and hidden economic transactions which accompany any sufficiently large business concern.
I would tell you but then the men in black suits would surely follow.
<smile>

It is apparent you believe that AMD is losing substantial amounts of money while gaining market share. It also seems that you "buy" into the accounting disclosures which promote the idea of an AMD demise.

There are some issues that, I will agree, merit strong review. However, our particular positions regarding AMD's financial standing is of little import and serves nothing. Let us agree to keep on the watch and see what happens.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

Agreed OneStar.

I'm glad we can debate, take opposite sides, and not resort to flaming each other.


I don't think AMD is in imminent danger of bankruptcy, but I do have many financial concerns due to their recent lack of profits. If AMD doesn't get in the black in 2008, I think bankruptcy is a real danger.

 

[AARRGGHHH]

The only prupose they serve is to keep intel's pricing competitive.

So yeah, I'm rooting for them to keep producing subpar crap that a bunch of intel hating mindless geeks will buy, not because it's good, or even good for the price, but just because they hate Intel in the same mindless way Linux geeks hate Microsoft.

Just enough to keep them in business, just enough to keep their heads about water, just enough to keep intel's pricing competitive, just enough so that Intel can continue build exceptional processors at affordable prices.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

The only prupose they serve is to keep intel's pricing competitive.

So yeah, I'm rooting for them to keep producing subpar crap that a bunch of intel hating mindless geeks will buy, not because it's good, or even good for the price, but just because they hate Intel in the same mindless way Linux geeks hate Microsoft.

Just enough to keep them in business, just enough to keep their heads about water, just enough to keep intel's pricing competitive, just enough so that Intel can continue to shine !!

Two years ago AMD was more than just there to keep Intel competitive, they actually had a superior product. If AMD would have stayed like that they would have a lot more marketshare today.

 

[rgeist554]

I was unsure about AMD at first. I just always heard people talking about them in a smug way. Like those people that own a hybrid and won't stfu about how they're saving the environment. That pis#$ me off. Anyways, I started using the AMD 5000+ x2, and I was pleasantly surprised. While all the benchmarks show that C2D and Quads usually win out over the AMD's, I don't think most people will ever use them to their maximum potential, just as was stated above.

If AMD will start releasing more of their "Black" line, I don't' think I'll ever switch back to Intel. If you haven't, go read the Tom's review of the AMD 5000+ x2 Black. It blew me away! 😀 Plus, no one should be so foolish to wish that either goes away. Do you want to pay $600 for something that costs $170 now? I know I don't.

 

[jkflipflop98]

Sure, Core 2 is currently faster than Athlon X2, but if AMD goes under, who is to compete with Intel? What incentive will Intel have to keep pumping out faster chips at a lower price? I don't want to see Netburst happen again. 🙁

Finally, someone with some sense. I think its humorous that noobs think because AMD has been second for what less than a year now that they are going under. Thats the funniest thing ever. With the exception of the previous 3 YEARS that AMD stomped all over Intel P4 and PentD, AMD has always been second. In fact, when I first started selling cpu's/pc's, we sold 9 Intel chips to every 1 AMD chip and the AMD's were cheaper. Now its more like every shop is selling 3-4 Intels to 1 AMD. Dont worry, they arent going anywhere. They are plenty happy being second.

OMFG. 😱
That's the first intelligent thing I've ever seen out of you.
Amd isn't going anywhere. The market is too large to not have a secondary supplier. The company as a whole has simply gotten too fat riding out the good times, and will need to shape up soon.

 

[Joe_The_Dragon]

Intel severs are still stuck on FB-DIMMS. AMD ones use cheaper and lower power cost DDR2 ECC ram

 

[jay2tall]

AMD still has its place. If I were to buy a lower end system I would look at AMD over Intel because the price/performace is better with intell. Why get a E2XXX when you can get a 4600+ or 5000+ that is comparable to the E6300 and e6400's? They are obviously betten on the top ranks but not everyone plays games and wants a crazy fast computer. Not everyone overclocks. Trust me AMD is going nowhere, they do need to make sure they don't loose there mid and lower end customers though.

Side note, all of our HP Blade servers where I work are AMD powered. All countless numbers of them. They are AWESOME.

 

[techgeek]

Well this thread being posted in is another grave dug up. After going through it some like onestar might need a little flavoring for the foot they have in their mouths. Of course I am speaking of AMD's financial report for Q3 that was released a few days ago. Seems like having a lawn sale with your CPU's doesn't make sense. Wow who would have thunk hey TC . I really hope that AMD can turn this one around, but it looks like they just might get caught in a sucking vortex of debt if something doesn't change quickly. At this point AMD needs to execute flawlessly, get Phenom out, capture the hearts and minds of the faithful AMD followers. Possibly even reclaim some of those that have ventured from the fold. ATI for their part seem to be doing OK, sure not in the high performance market, but they sure sell a lot of IGP's. IGP's are the biggest market and though mark up isn't huge, the volume makes the difference. Unlike AMD, ATI still sells it's products at a profit. I am actually quite sad that ATI is strapped to AMD. I think the merger helped delay R600, and all the fine people that have left ATI since the merger isn't a coincidence. The merger hasn't been good for ATI, and when you think of the financial shape that AMD is in now, I don't think it was good for them either. Maybe in the long term it will pay off (let's hope there is a long term), but we are one year in and it hasn't done either company and good.

As for the Black Edition (and for that matter Extreme Editions and the FX line) it seems odd that we piss all over ourselves happy that they unlocked the multiplier and charge us more for it. Anyone who's been computing more than what?? say 10 years might remember that unlocked multipliers were the norm, no one had ever heard of a locked multiplier. Of course some aholes had to go wreck it by remarking CPU's as higher speed models. The point is we should not be so grateful for something in IMO should be normal, not a privilege that we have to pay extra for. Overclocking should be that easy, bump the multiplier (in .5 increments) and not have to worry about whether we are overclocking the RAM or stressing the chipset with a higher FSB.

 

[pchoi04]

I have a Core 2 Duo... and I'll be getting a quad core in a couple of weeks but I'm still rooting for AMD. I think deep down I'm still an AMD fan.

 

[yomamafor1]

Onestar... I recommend you respect some of the older forum members here.. Its pretty apparent that they have A LOT (understatement) more knowledge than your ego.