John Carmack No Longer Enthused About AMD's Mantle?

[madogre]

Nvidia will not go out of business, heck they even thought about buying AMD at one point.

 

[tslot05qsljgo9ed]

somebodyspecial quote: The same can be said about PhysX.

Nope, wrong as usual from CharLIE's RagingRedRoosters.

PhysX is on the PS3, Xbox360, Wii, XBox One and PS4

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhysX

Wiki: The PhysX engine and SDK are available for Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, PlayStation 3,[3][4] Xbox 360[5] and the Wii.[6]

PS4: http://nvidianews.nvidia.com/Releases/NVIDIA-Announces-PhysX-and-APEX-Support-for-Sony-Computer-Entertainment-s-PlayStation-4-941.aspx

XBox One: http://nvidianews.nvidia.com/releases/nvidia-announces-physx-support-for-microsoft-xbox-one-game-console-997.aspx

 

[tomc100]

The idea behind mantle is great but what happens when AMD decides to change the GCN architecture for their future gpu lineup. Will games that use mantle require a patch or will future gpu maintain a similar GCN architecture. These questions and concerns should be addressed at their next conference. The potential is there and we will have to wait until December for a patch to Battlefield 4 to test the results.

 

[Mousemonkey]

Carmack, that guy who made some decent games back in the day and now is pretty much irrelevant because of not making anything interesting. The latest big release from id was what, Doom 3 BFG, a rehash? Ugh.
He doesn't like mantle but on the flip side, he said G-sync was good when one would have to invest in a new monitor just for that and it is also limited to PC. Mantle is open and so nVidia can implement it if they want to, just like AMD can implement something that works with G-sync. Ugh.

So when in the last couple of days did that happen? :lol:

 

[jasonpwns]

Yaniger it's pretty obvious Physx happened to be a good idea. It's actually being adopted on next gen platforms. The more you know!

 

[tburns1]

Wow! What a bunch of "what have you done for me lately" whiney b!tches you all are! You have no respect for your elders. Damn ADHD kids! This guy can code rings around you and you know it!

 

[photonboy]

re: Carmack

Carmack is one of the smartest guys, if not the smartest in the game programming world. If you watch some of his presentations which are on Youtube it would be obvious. He's not out of touch in the slightest. If anyone here was a serious programmer they'd know that.

As for the first comment about Carmack "switching sides"; it never happened. He made a comment about next-gen being faster than PC but he was talking about the AVERAGE PC not high-end gaming PC's and he was absolutely correct.

Carmack's well known as an advocate of open-source. He wants one good API solution not five different ones creating a nightmare for programmers.

He's saying if Mantle isn't going to for next-gen consoles then WHY would game devs want to deal with that for PC when they already have a solution for console that works on PC. Think about it, would you write a cross-platform game then port it like THIS:
a) PC with AMD cards using Mantle
b) PC with NVidia cards using some NVidia API solution (the "panic" thing he mentioned)
c) XBONE DX API
d) PS4 OPENGL API

So really, let's just focus the ecosystem on improving what we have with DX and OPENGL. It comes down to COST people, and while Mantle could make sense for a couple games it's fiscal suicide to recode a game that already runs well using DX just to squeeze out a little more performance.

Another correct comment Carmack made recently was basically this
"I'd love to be able to fully optimize every game from an aesthetic standpoint, but it's not practical from a budget standpoint."

Another related comment was how much time and money they spent optimizing the code at the end just trying to make the game work in the limited processing and memory space (take note PS3 Skyrim players). Game devs mostly do not care about getting every last drop of performance now that they've got more power and memory. If they push the limits too much they have to spend a lot of money optimizing to avoid issues like running out of RAM.

It all comes back to the BUDGET, and few game devs are going to invest in Mantle if they don't see it affecting game sales enough.

 

[iatemyelf]

This is from an Nvidia event, would you expect them to say otherwise? Am pretty sure Nvidia chose its panelist well to favar them. No?

you could say the exact same thing about what happened at the AMD event. the difference being those guys were paid around $8 million, these guys weren't paid anything to come and speak their mind. also, you do realize that Johan Andersson is an exec for DICE and is a technical director for the frostbite engine, something that will support mantle?

 

[iatemyelf]

I would like to hear exclusive developers in a non-biased press conference.

And i think that mantle will be implemented in consoles anyway, maybe not this or the next year. Nobody still knows how big can the improvement be. But i bet on AMD/ATI, they are slow but very efficient when implementing in new GPU technologies/architechtures.

johan andersson is an exec for DICE, who's frostbite engine will support mantle. obviously not biased. carmack specifically said mantle would be awesome if it was used in consoles, but since it's not, he cares little for it. so, what more do you want?

and why the hell would mantle EVER be implemented into consoles? that makes absolutely zero sense. sony and microsoft already have their own low level APIs, why in the world would they switch over to a competing one?

 

[iatemyelf]

MS said XBONE is not supporting Mantle is not XBONE will never support Mantle.

microsoft has absolutely no reason or incentive to switch to mantle. have you never heard of DirectX? why would they just hand over the keys to a competing API?

 

[stevejnb]

You know, one thing I notice about Carmack... The PC community's opinion of him is directly related to how strong his support is of whatever the new PC gaming technology fad is. If he isn't in support of it, he's a washed up has-been, sellout, etc. If he is it's "Well guys, Carmack says it'll be great, so it must be true."

 

[ccovemaker]

You can read this with Toms typical AMD trolling or you know you could have watched the interview on Linus Tech Tips last week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RF0zgYFFNk

 

[ccovemaker]

And What I took from the interview is that they asked 3 developers what they though of a new API. The 2 that had not used it said they didn't want to program for another API. The program that used it all ready was very impressed.

So much so that EA stated they are developing another 14 games for Mantle. That more than anything leads me to believe it is going to be a rather big deal.

but as all thing at this point Mantle benchmarks or GTFO.

 

[bystander]

As much as the AMD fan club wants Mantle to succeed, and there may be others that are intrigued by it as well, the reality is exactly as it was stated. If this means dev's have to have another code path for the game to run on GCN PC cards, that is more work for the dev's. More work that isn't needed.

It would have to have extremely impressive improvements to make it at all worth anything at all. There are too few GCN cards in PC's to warrant the extra costs.

 

[Sid Jeong]

It's funny so many replies focus on "who" and "where", not "what". The opinion John Carmack spoke is right regardless of who he is or where he said; it could've been said by somebody else in some other occasion and still be right. Mantle was interesting because of the possibility it may be used on console, creating unified developing environment. If it's just PC only then it's just another Glide or PhysX.

 

[renz496]

And What I took from the interview is that they asked 3 developers what they though of a new API. The 2 that had not used it said they didn't want to program for another API. The program that used it all ready was very impressed.

So much so that EA stated they are developing another 14 games for Mantle. That more than anything leads me to believe it is going to be a rather big deal.

but as all thing at this point Mantle benchmarks or GTFO.

i haven't heard this one yet. where i can read about this?

 

[Steveymoo]

Yeah, I'm not sure why tech writers hang off everything that Carmack says these days. His team hasn't made anything decent since Quake 3! There is so much talent in the game dev industry!

 

[bystander]

Yeah, I'm not sure why tech writers hang off everything that Carmack says these days. His team hasn't made anything decent since Quake 3! There is so much talent in the game dev industry!

Keep in mind here, they aren't asking his opinion about how to develop a great game. He is being asked about developing great game engines, this is because he was able to come up with a groundbreaking engine.

He is a game engine developer. The only reason he is known so much as a developer, is because he created the 1st truly 3D games with Doom.

It is the technical side of things, which this is about, that his opinion is still very much relevant.

 

[childofthekorn]

I am not surprised that MS nor Sony adopted it since it came out kinda late to the game and would require a lot of work and reoptimizations to get it to work properly.

As for Carmack, he has switched to the dark side. Not long ago he touted consoles as better than PC.

He is another lost soul.

Mantle was never meant to be used on consoles. It was supposed to make the porting process easier while allowing for greater performance out of AMD hardware.

 

[childofthekorn]

This is from an Nvidia event, would you expect them to say otherwise? Am pretty sure Nvidia chose its panelist well to favar them. No?

Johan Anderson is from Dice, the same guys that requested a low level API from AMD. Which basically started the incorporation of AMD support for Mantle.

 

[childofthekorn]

Talent is never irrelevant. Only small minded people who only follow current trends are irrelevant.

I am certain that discussed and written in to certain contracts are clauses forbidding API's such as Mantle on the XBox One and PS4. Neither MS nor Sony would willingly give over that level of control to of their hardware over to another party.

Isn't Carmack the one who apologized for Rage? Seems pretty irrelevant by todays standards. Let's see if he realizes it for Doom 4.

 

[childofthekorn]

Talent is never irrelevant. Only small minded people who only follow current trends are irrelevant.

I am certain that discussed and written in to certain contracts are clauses forbidding API's such as Mantle on the XBox One and PS4. Neither MS nor Sony would willingly give over that level of control to of their hardware over to another party.

Isn't Carmack the one who apologized for Rage? Seems pretty irrelevant by todays standards. Let's see if he realizes it for Doom 4.

 

[childofthekorn]

Yeah, I'm not sure why tech writers hang off everything that Carmack says these days. His team hasn't made anything decent since Quake 3! There is so much talent in the game dev industry!

Keep in mind here, they aren't asking his opinion about how to develop a great game. He is being asked about developing great game engines, this is because he was able to come up with a groundbreaking engine.

He is a game engine developer. The only reason he is known so much as a developer, is because he created the 1st truly 3D games with Doom.

It is the technical side of things, which this is about, that his opinion is still very much relevant.

If you're referring to the API, it works basically like a driver, not an engine. API works closer to machine level (Machine code; binary) which can increase performance by reducing overhead.

 

[bystander]

Yeah, I'm not sure why tech writers hang off everything that Carmack says these days. His team hasn't made anything decent since Quake 3! There is so much talent in the game dev industry!

Keep in mind here, they aren't asking his opinion about how to develop a great game. He is being asked about developing great game engines, this is because he was able to come up with a groundbreaking engine.

He is a game engine developer. The only reason he is known so much as a developer, is because he created the 1st truly 3D games with Doom.

It is the technical side of things, which this is about, that his opinion is still very much relevant.

If you're referring to the API, it works basically like a driver, not an engine. API works closer to machine level (Machine code; binary) which can increase performance by reducing overhead.

The game engine designers use API's to put them together. They are the ones going to be working with Mantle to create an engine for games.

 

[Hunter_Killers]

I don't even know what he's talking about. Consoles are already low level, they don't need Mantle. The whole point is to take advantage of what was already done low level on the consoles over to the PC.