Letter From CEO of Hobby Lobby inregard to Obamacare

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On paper they weren't forced to partipate.. but the government incentive pretty much forced many into partipating otherwise they would have had really bad sales months. The government put something out and if those dealerships didn't jump, it would have taken normal sales away.

You can not say that if they didn't partipate they wouldn't have lost any sales.
 
Introduce a tilted economic scenario, and business has to swing that way.
Business 101.
Lots of examples, as thats how business grows.
Creating an edict from government bends the rules, the natural direction of business, and business is forced to comply, either lose liberties, or lose business, which means, the business may die.
When Truman chose to drop the bomb, this was a wide and sweeping change in the war, how we fought wars in the future, and a fundamental change in mans history.
The government spent billions of todays dollars perfecting such a device, and as this is a major example of government actions, loss of liberties and fundamental change, it is the same thing in macro.
Denying this is ignoring history and common sense.
Our liberties which once were boundless are today ever being chipped away, and to the point of one mindset, certain sweeping changes are good, and if theyre not, we will fix them later.
This is what Greece did, and kept kicking the can down the road, where the one mindset worked for a short time, til it simply couldnt be ignored any longer.
Reducing spending can be fixed later in order to prevent the above, as taxes can and always have been raised at any time.
Going on to reductions in our spending, and how that can hurt our economy, creating a ACA can as well, as with continued spending at high levels.
Examples of those working for us, our fed and state employees have had a negative effect when they are seen as having a better standard of living than those outside of these groups.
In fairness, this has been overlooked by a greedy electorate which simply wont tilt the cart.
We escape down a treacherous path, and are somehow appeased
 
A good portion of government workers are highly over paid for jobs that pay a fraction in the private sector. That needs to change and luckily the government has started to push that agenda in 2013 as there just isn't any money to continue spending at the rate that we are. We have to cut back.. there just isn't enough money to keep this up.

Greece spent to the point where everyone had a hand out waiting for the gov't. It was what.. 75% unemployed or something, depending on the gov't.

Raising taxes is a moot point as it doesn't solve the issue. Raise them to 100% across the board for everyone, hypothetically, and it still doesn't elminate the deficit spending, let alone all the issues that would create.

I would just love for the "lefties" to acknowledge that the US has a spending problem, not a taxation problem.
 
 
Thank you OMG_73!
Intellectually dishonest?! HAHAHAHAHA! Yeah..okay...

Based on your responses, contradictions, and justification for abuses by the Obama Administration, I have no choice but to conclude that the concepts of liberty, our constitutional republic, and your rights and responsibilities as an american citizen are something that you do not understand.

Johnsonma's Narrative:
■- The information that other people share with me does not fit my world view and political mentality, so because I am unwilling to understand it, I will dismiss it as intellectually dishonest, pointless, and complete rubbish.
■- It doesn't matter to me if the federal government creates Free Speech Zones, I never interact with any of my elected officials anyway, the law doesn't effect me, so I don't care!
■- What does it matter if the President reports a the State of Arizona to the UN Council on Human Rights, I don't believe in State or National sovereignty anyway, besides I don't live in Arizona, so I don't care!
■- The government is free to waste my tax dollars telling me what products and services I must buy, as long as the government gives me the money to buy the things I want, I don't care!
■- I don't care if the President abuses Executive Orders to implement a law because the benefits outweigh the abuses!
■- I just want to live my life and only care about myself. If the government takes something from someone else, it's not my concern. I only care if it effects me directly.
 


Based on your continued dodging of the initial question I posed involving liberties that have been taken from you I have to conclude you have no idea what liberty you have lost but relish in the idea of saying you have lost some of said liberty!

By the way please don't make this post about me as that is just a waste of time. I know you are having trouble dealing with logical reasoning that contradicts what you have been told by biased media sources but its no reason to make a post entirely dedicated to your perceived reasonings behind my posts.
 
This forum is mainly for opinion and discussion. I think it was reasonable that chunky gave a fair and accurate representation of your view, summarized of course.

Do you take issue with your issues being summarized?
 
Wow! I thought I quite plainly answered your question. Other folks within this thread seem to understand the information I am responding with, hence I have (again) no choice but to conclude that the failure lies within you to understand it. Since that is the case, there is no point in further attempts to help you understand.

The progressive tactic of transference...I hear liberals and progressives say this whenever they are unable to intellectualize information that contradicts their mentality and world view.

I have noticed that this stems from a liberal's fundamental inability to understand someone else's point of view, almost to the point where they are unable to empathize. As a result, liberals and progressives can only express their frustration by telling other people that how THEY feel is what other people are feeling. This inability to place themselves inside someone else's perspective is a reason why liberals need to classify and categorize people into social, economic, or ethnic groups. This is why liberals see a black person speaking rather than hearing what is being said, this is why liberals see a person with material possessions and can only focus on how much money they have, this is why liberals see the federal government as playing a central role rather than leaving the States and the People to govern themselves.
 
 



John, because someone else lost liberty, we all lost a little as well. That's what they lost. It was a chip against the block. You want them to explain what they exactly lost. Everyone, including you, lost a little bit.
 


I understand that concept, I'm just asking for specifics on how the perceived causations could be explained on an individual level. In other words how did the GM bailout AFFECT a person's liberty.

The GM Bail out reduced our liberty through government intervention into controlling the means of production and effectively determining which products are available to the people. Anytime the government, past and present, intervenes into industry and determines which products, services, and businesses succeed or fail it equals a loss of liberty.

This is one of the reasons I asked this question. In the quote he says that the government intervention determined which products are available to the people and that equals a loss of liberty. HOW?!?!?!?! I have more choices in said market! How is more choice a loss of liberty? No one can explain how any individual lost any liberty with the GM bailout. I was asking chunky how HE lost some liberty but even explaining how any one individual lost any liberty would of been a start. Doesn't have to be me, doesn't have to be chunky, it could be any individual out there. It also kept secondary business alive which created more choices for businesses even farther back in the spectrum. Saying something equals a loss of liberty IS EASY, its explaining how that liberty was ACTUALLY lost that matters.

Obama reporting the State of Arizona to the United Nations Human Rights Council and suing other States over immigration laws is an egregious violation of the 10th Amendment. Loss of liberty.

To this I responded that the SCOTUS ruled immigration in its entirety is in the realm of the Federal government. How does this affect an individual's liberty?
 
Government intervening into which businesses, products, or services succeed or fail IS the loss of liberty; regardless if said intervention results in the perception of more choice to the consumer. Specifically, government intervention into the marketplace is an egregious interpretation of the Commerce Clause (Article 2, Section 8) and completely flies in the face of original intent.

As a result of the bail out, the Treasury Department still holds about 500 Million shares of GM. The Treasury is unwilling to sell the shares because it would result in a $15 Billion dollar loss to the tax payers. The government coerced tax our tax dollars to save a company rather than the consumer deciding whether that company's products were still competitive in the market. When the government restricts, prohibits, or otherwise mitigates the citizen's ability to actively participate in the market place, it is a loss of liberty.

The GM bailout did not give the consumer more choice in the marketplace as several brands disappeared as a result of the bail out i.e.; Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Hummer, Saturn. As a result, I believe the argument of the bail out offering more choice to the consumer is completely false as there are four less GM brands available to the consumer.

Since there are four less vehicle brands in the market available to the consumer, and the reason those brands are no longer available is because of the bail out, the loss of liberty is the government intervening into businesses ultimately deciding which products the consumer can or can not buy. I really liked Pontiac, owned a few of them over the years. I lost liberty, the ability to choose the products I deemed best suited to my pursuit of happiness, because the bail out effectively removed the Pontiac brand from the market place.

No, you didn't, you responded with
The Supreme Court has ruled that the Congressional power to regulate naturalization...Hampton v. Mow Sun Wong, 426 U.S. 88
which has nothing to do with enforcing immigration law. Without giving a background summary of the Arizona law and the subsequent rulings, the Obama Administration suing Arizona over enforcing State and Federal immigration law is a violation of the 10th Amendment.

The Obama Administration reporting Arizona to the UN Human Rights Council is just an absolute disdain for State and National sovereignty. This is the first time in our national history where a President subjected a State to the sanctions of an international and foreign entity. These United States are in no way legally bound to the UN Human Rights Council and Obama effectively violated his Oath of Office to protect and preserve the Constitution and ensure a republican form of government by reporting Arizona to the UN.
 
@John:

The gov't bought a company for it to continue. In doing so, we had the Chevrolet Volt shoved down our throats and cost tax payers money. I do not pay taxes to have the government push vehicles onto the public. We still have the ability to choose what we purchase.

The government, having control of the companies, helped close dealerships. The government closed down small businesses. If another industry started to fail, what stops the government from bailing them out and changing the game? The precedence has been set that the gov't can do it now. That is loss of liberty.
 
lib·er·ty

[ líbbərtee ]


1.right to choose: the freedom to think or act without being constrained by necessity or force
2.freedom: freedom from captivity or slavery
3.basic right: a political, social, and economic right that belongs to the citizens of a state or to all people

If the government comes in and takes control of a business, pushes a 'green' vehicle and assists in closing dealerships, ie businesses.. You do not see any form of loss there?
 
 


Incentives do not force consumer spending only encourage it. No loss of liberty there. The government closed down small businesses in order for the greater majority of them to have a chance. Not to mention those businesses would of gone under anyways. Oh and most of them just switched to another car maker and are still open today. How is that loss of liberty?
 

No I was not forced to buy a green vehicle and the closing of dealerships help keep my choices in the marketplace more diverse.
 


Many dealerships stopped carrying a version. Some closed. In fact, the oldest and best selling dealership in Toledo, Ohio did close permanently. It was a big deal being 45 minutes from Detroit, it being a best seller and the oldest one in the city. Donated to Republicans too. Yet, new dealerships that were doing poorly were kept open.

The government had a say in it and that took away people's businesses, people's job, and people's liberty. I cite that dealership because I know first hand, not through some news article or anything, that it did close and people lost their career jobs.

Businesses were forced into producing the Volt when it wasn't ready. That is a loss of liberty as the business is being forced to do something.. and then sell it at a loss. Selling it at a loss is the government's way, not a business's plan.
 


Chrysler announced the planned closing of some dealerships back in February 2008, months before Obama was even nominated, let alone elected. The list of 789 dealerships to be shuttered wasn't announced, however, until more than a year later. Both Chrysler and the Obama administration say that investment banker Steven Rattner, who had been brought in as head of the White House's Auto Task Force to make some tough decisions about the U.S. auto industry at a time when it was running on fumes, did not select which dealerships would live and which would die. The list was a Chrysler product and was based, according to the company, on such factors as sales volume, local market share and location.
 
I seem to remember some saying, and not proving, a former presidential candidate being accused company buyouts, and reducing them for monies sake alone.

I guess its OK when using others peoples monies, and is then "fair"