Microsoft Announces DirectX 12 at GDC

[cptnjarhead]

This is funny, i remember being ridiculed for saying that DX12 would coming out within the next year, and i was right. On the flip side, if this was really the "API" that devs have been asking for, why did they wait till Mantle started to get traction? I think Microsoft does not like Mantle, not because it makes DX look bad, but because it gives Devs a console like platform for PC, and mobile devices, and none of those platforms use Xbox Live.

 

[ajcroteau]

One of the things that i'm interested is seeing is because of the lower overhead on the GPU, will this also equate to lower temperatures on the GPU... there getting pretty insane atm... I'm thinking about tossing a hamburger and some french fries in my computer tower to cook so i'll have something to eat after a few hours of bioshock infinite...

 

[renz496]

One of the things that i'm interested is seeing is because of the lower overhead on the GPU, will this also equate to lower temperatures on the GPU... there getting pretty insane atm... I'm thinking about tossing a hamburger and some french fries in my computer tower to cook so i'll have something to eat after a few hours of bioshock infinite...

how is that related? yes more cpu cores can be utilized but it doesn't mean gpu utilization will go down because of that

 

[ajcroteau]

One of the things that i'm interested is seeing is because of the lower overhead on the GPU, will this also equate to lower temperatures on the GPU... there getting pretty insane atm... I'm thinking about tossing a hamburger and some french fries in my computer tower to cook so i'll have something to eat after a few hours of bioshock infinite...

how is that related? yes more cpu cores can be utilized but it doesn't mean gpu utilization will go down because of that

"...There’s also reduced GPU overhead and a set of new rendering pipeline features that improve algorithm efficiency..."

This is what I'm referring too... Did you read the article?

 

[renz496]

that was more on the driver/software side. not how it will affect the gpu physically like temperature

 

[red77star]

DX12 won't be released until 2015? So who cares...By then Windows 8 will be dead. We shall see what Windows 9 brings and if MS follows same pattern like with Windows 8, it will be dead before released.

 

[Zetto]

Even if Mantle dies sometime soon (unlikely, imo), it will always be "nice" because it's arguably the catalyst for dx12. I'm pretty sure that even if MS was already working on it before they heard of Mantle, they would have taken development at a much slower pace and just sat on it for months or even years. Regardless of how well Mantle actually does against the other APIs, without it Kronos and MS wouldn't have bothered to update theirs. The winner in this API race is the consumer, and that wouldn't have been guaranteed without Mantle.

Right because they never updated DX before. Wait, this is version 12, so I guess your Microsoft hate is misconceived again.

 

[Zetto]

If Microsoft wants to not support Dx12 in Windows 7 hoping gamers would buy Windows 8, they have another thing coming. I would rather buy an AMD GPU and become a Mantle fanboy.

Do it please, then stop with the Win 8 drivel.

 

[skit75]

Mantle won't go anywhere.Both Thief and BF4 are not build with Mantle in mind and they still provided lot of performance improvements. Also by the time DX12 is released and game with DX12 Mantle will have 2 year heads up.Considering that already is supported by Frostbyte,Unreal and Cryengine its only going to improve.Who knows , maybe in 2 years we see Mantle 2.0 ?

Unfortunately PC gaming does not drive the industry. I really wish it did. Yes consoles take our hardware now and use it but neither the PS4 nor XB1 support Mantle. The XB1 supports DX12 and the PS4 is OpenGL.

We have no news if the PS4 will support the next OpenGL (the one that should also add in low level hardware support). That means the XB1 could gain an edge over the PS4 and since consoles do drive the gaming market more, so I am willing to be we wont see much more from Mantle unless AMD opens it to NVidia as well.

Look at it this way, is a game dev going to utilize a API on the PC that is currently only for GCN and also requires AMD to update the driver for support or an API that will work on the XB1, PC and across all current DX11 hardware that is out there?

My bet goes for DirectX 12.

As for Windows support, I think they will add 7 support. While I like 8.1, as it is a better OS from a technical standpoint, 7 still has a much larger user base and probably will since, well people are against change.

Of course we will have to wait and see.

It isn't that we are against change.... The argument from this side is more like, show my why I need to "upgrade" to the next OS. Show me what benefit I would have. Show me what I would be missing by not upgrading and let me weigh the options. If DirectX 12 is the zing that is supposed to pull me into windows 8,8.1 or 9 etc... Then show me why I need DirectX 12... is there a real improvement that I would notice. I don't want to "upgrade" my OS every 2-3 years just because there is a new UI they want to show me.

 

[jimmysmitty]

Mantle won't go anywhere.Both Thief and BF4 are not build with Mantle in mind and they still provided lot of performance improvements. Also by the time DX12 is released and game with DX12 Mantle will have 2 year heads up.Considering that already is supported by Frostbyte,Unreal and Cryengine its only going to improve.Who knows , maybe in 2 years we see Mantle 2.0 ?

Unfortunately PC gaming does not drive the industry. I really wish it did. Yes consoles take our hardware now and use it but neither the PS4 nor XB1 support Mantle. The XB1 supports DX12 and the PS4 is OpenGL.

We have no news if the PS4 will support the next OpenGL (the one that should also add in low level hardware support). That means the XB1 could gain an edge over the PS4 and since consoles do drive the gaming market more, so I am willing to be we wont see much more from Mantle unless AMD opens it to NVidia as well.

Look at it this way, is a game dev going to utilize a API on the PC that is currently only for GCN and also requires AMD to update the driver for support or an API that will work on the XB1, PC and across all current DX11 hardware that is out there?

My bet goes for DirectX 12.

As for Windows support, I think they will add 7 support. While I like 8.1, as it is a better OS from a technical standpoint, 7 still has a much larger user base and probably will since, well people are against change.

Of course we will have to wait and see.

It isn't that we are against change.... The argument from this side is more like, show my why I need to "upgrade" to the next OS. Show me what benefit I would have. Show me what I would be missing by not upgrading and let me weigh the options. If DirectX 12 is the zing that is supposed to pull me into windows 8,8.1 or 9 etc... Then show me why I need DirectX 12... is there a real improvement that I would notice. I don't want to "upgrade" my OS every 2-3 years just because there is a new UI they want to show me.

At $30 bucks, or $15 with a new 7 license, 8 was a pretty good deal.

As for they why? The improvements to the backend alone are what makes 8 worth it. 8 alone has a lighter, faster kernel with a lot of improvements to a lot of features.

As for DX12, it is going to give every GPU, even current DX11 ones, a performance boost since it will reduce overhead and until a new way to render comes out that is the best way to get more performance out of hardware.

It is still to be seen but I think it will be beneficial enough.

 

[ern88]

Hope they have a great deal on Windows 9!!!!

 

[VENAXIS]

I like how both Dx12 and Mantle are supported on AMD GPUs. Even if Mantle did not succeed (Which I doubt), we'll still get a performance boost from Dx12. This is a win-win situation for everybody, but I'll be putting my bet on Mantle.

 

[Christopher Sellard]

extremely glad it will support my gtx 760 sc. just bought the card an then hear new dx is is being released load off my mind.

 

[somebodyspecial]

Mantle won't go anywhere.Both Thief and BF4 are not build with Mantle in mind and they still provided lot of performance improvements. Also by the time DX12 is released and game with DX12 Mantle will have 2 year heads up.Considering that already is supported by Frostbyte,Unreal and Cryengine its only going to improve.Who knows , maybe in 2 years we see Mantle 2.0 ?

Unfortunately PC gaming does not drive the industry. I really wish it did. Yes consoles take our hardware now and use it but neither the PS4 nor XB1 support Mantle. The XB1 supports DX12 and the PS4 is OpenGL.

We have no news if the PS4 will support the next OpenGL (the one that should also add in low level hardware support). That means the XB1 could gain an edge over the PS4 and since consoles do drive the gaming market more, so I am willing to be we wont see much more from Mantle unless AMD opens it to NVidia as well.

Disagree with these two bolded statements. 2600 devs at GDC 2013 and now 2014 show PC gaming is now #1 leading by 3x devs pushing PC gaming (53%) vs. consoles only getting 14% (ps4) and 12% (xbox1) with mobile at 51%.

Your statement was true LAST GEN, no where near true this gen. Devs are running in droves to PC/Mobile (pc up 13% from last years GDC just under 40%). Also note, PC gaming now makes more than all consoles combined revenue wise That was an even race last year, this year it will favor the PC side as even more devs went PC by far while consoles basically show the same as last year (both consoles were under 15% last year too for xbox1/ps4). The only thing next gen did this year was catch last gen in dev interest, other than that they got their clock cleaned by mobile/pc. Consoles will need to sell like it was xmas launch for the entire YEAR to even stay in this race. Sheer numbers of units on android/apple will move us, as those users are there TODAY and keep growing, while it will take 7yrs to get this gen to 90mil each (you already have 1.3B today on mobile, and will likely double in 3yrs).

Mobile will hit 2Billion units before consoles hit 20mil each (xmas 2015 for mobile no doubt)...ROFL. They are dead for all but the largest devs who can afford to wait for consoles to get to year 5-7 where sales keep coming in as units get into more users hands, but we're still only talking 90mil after 7yrs last gen for each one. That's why you can make MILLIONS on a $2 game on mobile (ask rovio, and their games are nothing special but brought in 300mil+ so far in just software, and another bunch on other related junk). For the next year on a console you only have 20mil or less to shoot at on a console and there are TWO of them (so if it's exclusive you REALLY have to be big to wait for another 80mil units sold, as you are only shooting at HALF of those consoles). Also consider most games don't get 5% penetration on a console (how many sell 9mil units on consoles?), so even if they get to 10mil this xmas you'll likely not sell more than a million copies of a game for a few years to any side (xbox1/ps4). You'd rather be on mobile if you want those profits in the next few years to survive right? I think you forgot to do the math or forgot to look at devs directions before saying those two comments. Devs are not lying, and neither is the math.

Right now most games are making money with 15man teams on small addictive games on mobile, but that changes going forward (as we get more gamepads hooked to mobile and AIM at these directly just like a console type game) and the console experience will be directly replicated on mobile. You won't care if it's a console running your game or a tablet/phone if the gamepad experience etc is the same. The most important feature here for those smaller devs is anything made on mobile or pc goes the other way quickly/easily, hence the 50% for both mobile/pc while consoles and EVERY other platform is under 15% (even android crap micro-consoles have 10% almost catching xbox1/ps4). I think if consoles had aimed much higher (another $50-$100 in the cpu/gpu hardware) they might have made it this gen. But they killed themselves with being so low, a mobile device will make them pointless by 10nm/2017 less than 1/2 through their lives. So consoles will be sitting at 30mil units each in 3yrs (if lucky) while mobile will have the same experience on a gamepad (with stacked dram, faster memory, probably SSD for storage no HD etc helping to achieve a great experience at or near next gen consoles, out to TV from HDMI) and have 2Billion units to sell to.

I can tell you with 100% certainty a $6 game will sell FAR MORE easily than a $60-65 game on consoles especially with most people already owning the MOBILE device (we're just waiting for the games to fully use the hardware, which is happening, it's not angry birds only today). Most of the world can afford $6 right and left, but not many can do $60 very often. You don't need to know rocket science to figure this out. Stupid people think phones are free on contract...LOL, really about $1500-2000 after two years of $70-100. But NOBODY thinks a console is FREE at $400-500 sticker prices and the games are NOT free either at $60 or so for most.

I don't like the next few years as mobile has to catch up to the full console experience, but I like where we end up later after consoles are totally dead and dictate nothing. Mobile moves yearly and has the audience to get devs to move quickly too, while consoles require HUGE devs that can wait for years for the sales. I see us heading BACK to gameplay being the focus, rather than pretty graphics that will need a few more SOC revs to achieve. During that time you have to make GAMEPLAY addictive or we don't bite because the gpus can't do crysis 3 graphics on these for a while YAY. GAMEPLAY first, graphics second if you have time/funds to add them. This sells a game. Graphics first, but gameplay second fizzles immediately after reviews hit and pre-orders are over. Graphics isn't selling 300mil in revenues for Angry Birds right?

Supercell's revenue (pretty much TWO mobile games bringing all revenue in) soared 9x to 892mil last year (profit up over 9x! 460mil+!). These two games are not BattleField 4...LOL.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/supercell-revenue-and-profit-soars/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
"On average, Supercell generated roughly $2.4 million in revenue each day from its two gaming franchises last year, the company said. But it looks like the figure is now higher. On Tuesday, a hacker gained access to the company’s systems and published internal revenue figures showing that Supercell was now generating revenue of more than $5 million a day."

$3bil market value on a mobile dev? WOW, rovio sucks compared to these guys. I wonder what gameloft's value is with much higher end titles and far more. Clearly from the leak they are actually making 2x more than claiming (saving the real #'s for an IPO probably to really blow the price up, nice 1.5B deal with softbank already too). This company was founded in 2010, just goes to show mobile can make a billion dollar company in 3yrs. Under 100 employees? Nintendo meanwhile has 7000 employees but makes $330mil LOSS in 2013...LOL. OUCH.

So MS lost 3Bil on xbox360, sony lost 4Bil+, and we see Nintendo losing 330mil this last year even on the backs of a new 3ds/wiiu. Consoles are driving losses, not the gaming market If you aren't moving to mobile you're dumb, or RICH who can afford losses massively.

"Despite calls from analysts and consumers for the company to release its popular franchises on devices other than its own dedicated games consoles, Nintendo executives have indicated that the company plans to use smartphones and tablets only as advertising aids."

Welcome to bankruptcy then Nintendo Release on mobile or become irrelevant. Just stop making hardware as it isn't needed to sell GOOD GAMEPLAY games like mario etc. Note they are predicting major sales declines going forward, which will only make things worse right? Nintendo says this, not some analyst.

Consoles are dead. MS/Sony lost $3/4Bil each on x360/ps3. They won't do any better this time either, despite lowering build costs and low-balling hardware. Maybe they lose $2/3Bil each this time instead, but it's still not profits. I more than welcome the GAMEPLAY based games we have coming with 10-20 man indie teams & $10-20 pricing vs. Blizz/EA/MS and blazing graphics (crap gameplay) with 100man teams/20-100mil cost and $60 pricing. I could easily pay $30 for gameplay like torchlight/torchlight2 etc and their graphics don't blow you away (gameplay does!). Mobile is basically set up to succeed as they are forced into GAMEPLAY over graphics due to low power. Gameplay wins as shown by supercell, rovio etc. Mobile is making millionaires while consoles make losses unless you have an ultra hit. You don't really have to advertise on mobile, apple/google do it for you and word of mouth/gameplay brings the buyers too. In these small teams the whole team is millionaires, where in the big devs you probably end up with 50-100K per employee while the company takes any REAL profits themselves and for shareholders. You actually get PAID if you get a hit in the small dev, you don't at EA etc.

I hate consoles, but the above comments are financial. Mobile units sold dictates you go there or to PC or risk death. You can release to console later if profits you make first on PC/Mobile allow it, but you are a fool to START on consoles. I'm not picking up what you're putting down here so to speak

One more point, as the other guy said, I'm not against change if it makes me FASTER and MORE PRODUCTIVE. If you can't hit on those two marks it's just change for the sake of change. Why should I learn something that does me no good? I take my OS just like I do my gameplay. Faster, better, stronger etc or buzz off with your changes. If my game isn't more FUN I have no interest in the graphics. I was more productive in WinXP than even Win7 (don't even get me started on Explorer's useless "upgrades") and how slow win8/8.1 makes me is ridiculous.

Please show me benchmarks that show the magical backend improvements that speed up the OS vs. win7? Please don't cite boot times...LOL. Show me anything other than conjecture and anything under 10% is not worth even a $10 upgrade right? You're asking me to LEARN for that percent whatever it is, not just PAY. I spend $200 on a new gpu every few years for 100% gains or more (or I wait another gen). I am not required to learn anything to get that either, I just pay up and I'm done. You're basically asking me to PAY to LEARN so MS can make more cash?

"As for they why? The improvements to the backend alone are what makes 8 worth it. 8 alone has a lighter, faster kernel with a lot of improvements to a lot of features."
Show me kernel improvements that add to speed (otherwise what is the point?) if it's so light vs. win7. There is nothing I can do faster in windows 8/8.1 than win7 (everything has added clicks, and even MORE crap is hidden deeper). Faster makes me more money, while pretty doesn't do squat (and I don't even think win8 is pretty). I boot or shutdown my PC once a month (~patch tuesday...LOL) and rarely ever more and it runs 24/7 and a simple $70-80 SSD gets you FAR more in this area and any disk access departments. If you want to LOAD things faster get an SSD not Win8. Teracopy gives anyone good tranfer times etc anyway (free, and I've replaced Explorer anyway as file management in windows has sucked since XP, jumping folders, libraries etc who thought this crap up? Time wasters) , again no need for win8 for better estimates of file operations (is that a feature? LOL. How much did MS pay PCmag to call boot times VERY important, my SSD boots in seconds anyway). Metro crap I have no use for either. You can like this stuff, but you can't say it makes me any faster all day. Security does nothing for speed either, and that's what I have a firewall/AV/Threatfire for which beat anything MS does hands down. Any claims it's more secure won't be proved for years anyway.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/24/battlefield_4_windows_7_vs_81_performance_review/5#.Uy0bj-LHJ8w
Win7 vs. win8 BF4. Nothing...3% for 290x AMD and they worked for 2yrs with DX11.1/Frostbite. If that's all you get for 2yrs of work and a new OS quit wasting my time/money. I'm guessing the pausing gets better 4 months later as win7 got some fixes for BF4 now that we know win8 has totally failed so surely they redirected work to win7 optimization (this game has so many bugs, stuttering can't be blamed on win7 with such a bug infested game).
"Was there an advantage to the image quality settings under Windows 8.1? The answer is "No." The performance advantages were generally small at 3-6%."
This is an AMD title and EA recommends Win8! Again, if this is all I get, buzz off, let me know when it improves my games by 25%+ for $30 Until then I'll buy a GPU for 100%+ for $200 every few years and ride the OS until it can't breathe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO7_xFToEAI&html5=1
No better in 3dmark either? I think I'm done trying to help you find favorable data

 

[Djentleman]

Mantles life was kinda cut short.
We'll probably only see 3-4 more games use it.

 

[back_by_demand]

A lot of people are ignoring some important facts here - lower resources usage and better multithreading scaling - I am looking forward to some serious benchmark improvements

 

[rdc85]

First of all, how long this will be truly implemented....

I'm forgot when the DX 11 was announced.. (2008 according to wiki)
Today, i don't think DX11 already at it's limit... (some will argue this because of low spec on console)

Second, My guess as usual M$ will link this with new OS to boost sales..
(IMO if dx 12 is supported by current dx11 card, I cannot see why w7 cannot use it.)

So I'm not quite excited.....

 

[soccerplayer88]

Meh, I'm not impressed.Most games are still being built at dx9, let alone 10/11.

 

[Djentleman]

@rdc85
DX 11 is already at its limit because of CPU overhead, an dx12 is going to be in way more games than mantle. DX has been the standard for a decade; I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[skit75]

Mantle won't go anywhere.Both Thief and BF4 are not build with Mantle in mind and they still provided lot of performance improvements. Also by the time DX12 is released and game with DX12 Mantle will have 2 year heads up.Considering that already is supported by Frostbyte,Unreal and Cryengine its only going to improve.Who knows , maybe in 2 years we see Mantle 2.0 ?

Unfortunately PC gaming does not drive the industry. I really wish it did. Yes consoles take our hardware now and use it but neither the PS4 nor XB1 support Mantle. The XB1 supports DX12 and the PS4 is OpenGL.

We have no news if the PS4 will support the next OpenGL (the one that should also add in low level hardware support). That means the XB1 could gain an edge over the PS4 and since consoles do drive the gaming market more, so I am willing to be we wont see much more from Mantle unless AMD opens it to NVidia as well.

Disagree with these two bolded statements. 2600 devs at GDC 2013 and now 2014 show PC gaming is now #1 leading by 3x devs pushing PC gaming (53%) vs. consoles only getting 14% (ps4) and 12% (xbox1) with mobile at 51%.

Your statement was true LAST GEN, no where near true this gen. Devs are running in droves to PC/Mobile (pc up 13% from last years GDC just under 40%). Also note, PC gaming now makes more than all consoles combined revenue wise That was an even race last year, this year it will favor the PC side as even more devs went PC by far while consoles basically show the same as last year (both consoles were under 15% last year too for xbox1/ps4). The only thing next gen did this year was catch last gen in dev interest, other than that they got their clock cleaned by mobile/pc. Consoles will need to sell like it was xmas launch for the entire YEAR to even stay in this race. Sheer numbers of units on android/apple will move us, as those users are there TODAY and keep growing, while it will take 7yrs to get this gen to 90mil each (you already have 1.3B today on mobile, and will likely double in 3yrs).

Mobile will hit 2Billion units before consoles hit 20mil each (xmas 2015 for mobile no doubt)...ROFL. They are dead for all but the largest devs who can afford to wait for consoles to get to year 5-7 where sales keep coming in as units get into more users hands, but we're still only talking 90mil after 7yrs last gen for each one. That's why you can make MILLIONS on a $2 game on mobile (ask rovio, and their games are nothing special but brought in 300mil+ so far in just software, and another bunch on other related junk). For the next year on a console you only have 20mil or less to shoot at on a console and there are TWO of them (so if it's exclusive you REALLY have to be big to wait for another 80mil units sold, as you are only shooting at HALF of those consoles). Also consider most games don't get 5% penetration on a console (how many sell 9mil units on consoles?), so even if they get to 10mil this xmas you'll likely not sell more than a million copies of a game for a few years to any side (xbox1/ps4). You'd rather be on mobile if you want those profits in the next few years to survive right? I think you forgot to do the math or forgot to look at devs directions before saying those two comments. Devs are not lying, and neither is the math.

Right now most games are making money with 15man teams on small addictive games on mobile, but that changes going forward (as we get more gamepads hooked to mobile and AIM at these directly just like a console type game) and the console experience will be directly replicated on mobile. You won't care if it's a console running your game or a tablet/phone if the gamepad experience etc is the same. The most important feature here for those smaller devs is anything made on mobile or pc goes the other way quickly/easily, hence the 50% for both mobile/pc while consoles and EVERY other platform is under 15% (even android crap micro-consoles have 10% almost catching xbox1/ps4). I think if consoles had aimed much higher (another $50-$100 in the cpu/gpu hardware) they might have made it this gen. But they killed themselves with being so low, a mobile device will make them pointless by 10nm/2017 less than 1/2 through their lives. So consoles will be sitting at 30mil units each in 3yrs (if lucky) while mobile will have the same experience on a gamepad (with stacked dram, faster memory, probably SSD for storage no HD etc helping to achieve a great experience at or near next gen consoles, out to TV from HDMI) and have 2Billion units to sell to.

I can tell you with 100% certainty a $6 game will sell FAR MORE easily than a $60-65 game on consoles especially with most people already owning the MOBILE device (we're just waiting for the games to fully use the hardware, which is happening, it's not angry birds only today). Most of the world can afford $6 right and left, but not many can do $60 very often. You don't need to know rocket science to figure this out. Stupid people think phones are free on contract...LOL, really about $1500-2000 after two years of $70-100. But NOBODY thinks a console is FREE at $400-500 sticker prices and the games are NOT free either at $60 or so for most.

I don't like the next few years as mobile has to catch up to the full console experience, but I like where we end up later after consoles are totally dead and dictate nothing. Mobile moves yearly and has the audience to get devs to move quickly too, while consoles require HUGE devs that can wait for years for the sales. I see us heading BACK to gameplay being the focus, rather than pretty graphics that will need a few more SOC revs to achieve. During that time you have to make GAMEPLAY addictive or we don't bite because the gpus can't do crysis 3 graphics on these for a while YAY. GAMEPLAY first, graphics second if you have time/funds to add them. This sells a game. Graphics first, but gameplay second fizzles immediately after reviews hit and pre-orders are over. Graphics isn't selling 300mil in revenues for Angry Birds right?

Supercell's revenue (pretty much TWO mobile games bringing all revenue in) soared 9x to 892mil last year (profit up over 9x! 460mil+!). These two games are not BattleField 4...LOL.
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/supercell-revenue-and-profit-soars/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
"On average, Supercell generated roughly $2.4 million in revenue each day from its two gaming franchises last year, the company said. But it looks like the figure is now higher. On Tuesday, a hacker gained access to the company’s systems and published internal revenue figures showing that Supercell was now generating revenue of more than $5 million a day."

$3bil market value on a mobile dev? WOW, rovio sucks compared to these guys. I wonder what gameloft's value is with much higher end titles and far more. Clearly from the leak they are actually making 2x more than claiming (saving the real #'s for an IPO probably to really blow the price up, nice 1.5B deal with softbank already too). This company was founded in 2010, just goes to show mobile can make a billion dollar company in 3yrs. Under 100 employees? Nintendo meanwhile has 7000 employees but makes $330mil LOSS in 2013...LOL. OUCH.

So MS lost 3Bil on xbox360, sony lost 4Bil+, and we see Nintendo losing 330mil this last year even on the backs of a new 3ds/wiiu. Consoles are driving losses, not the gaming market If you aren't moving to mobile you're dumb, or RICH who can afford losses massively.

"Despite calls from analysts and consumers for the company to release its popular franchises on devices other than its own dedicated games consoles, Nintendo executives have indicated that the company plans to use smartphones and tablets only as advertising aids."

Welcome to bankruptcy then Nintendo Release on mobile or become irrelevant. Just stop making hardware as it isn't needed to sell GOOD GAMEPLAY games like mario etc. Note they are predicting major sales declines going forward, which will only make things worse right? Nintendo says this, not some analyst.

Consoles are dead. MS/Sony lost $3/4Bil each on x360/ps3. They won't do any better this time either, despite lowering build costs and low-balling hardware. Maybe they lose $2/3Bil each this time instead, but it's still not profits. I more than welcome the GAMEPLAY based games we have coming with 10-20 man indie teams & $10-20 pricing vs. Blizz/EA/MS and blazing graphics (crap gameplay) with 100man teams/20-100mil cost and $60 pricing. I could easily pay $30 for gameplay like torchlight/torchlight2 etc and their graphics don't blow you away (gameplay does!). Mobile is basically set up to succeed as they are forced into GAMEPLAY over graphics due to low power. Gameplay wins as shown by supercell, rovio etc. Mobile is making millionaires while consoles make losses unless you have an ultra hit. You don't really have to advertise on mobile, apple/google do it for you and word of mouth/gameplay brings the buyers too. In these small teams the whole team is millionaires, where in the big devs you probably end up with 50-100K per employee while the company takes any REAL profits themselves and for shareholders. You actually get PAID if you get a hit in the small dev, you don't at EA etc.

I hate consoles, but the above comments are financial. Mobile units sold dictates you go there or to PC or risk death. You can release to console later if profits you make first on PC/Mobile allow it, but you are a fool to START on consoles. I'm not picking up what you're putting down here so to speak

One more point, as the other guy said, I'm not against change if it makes me FASTER and MORE PRODUCTIVE. If you can't hit on those two marks it's just change for the sake of change. Why should I learn something that does me no good? I take my OS just like I do my gameplay. Faster, better, stronger etc or buzz off with your changes. If my game isn't more FUN I have no interest in the graphics. I was more productive in WinXP than even Win7 (don't even get me started on Explorer's useless "upgrades") and how slow win8/8.1 makes me is ridiculous.

Please show me benchmarks that show the magical backend improvements that speed up the OS vs. win7? Please don't cite boot times...LOL. Show me anything other than conjecture and anything under 10% is not worth even a $10 upgrade right? You're asking me to LEARN for that percent whatever it is, not just PAY. I spend $200 on a new gpu every few years for 100% gains or more (or I wait another gen). I am not required to learn anything to get that either, I just pay up and I'm done. You're basically asking me to PAY to LEARN so MS can make more cash?

"As for they why? The improvements to the backend alone are what makes 8 worth it. 8 alone has a lighter, faster kernel with a lot of improvements to a lot of features."
Show me kernel improvements that add to speed (otherwise what is the point?) if it's so light vs. win7. There is nothing I can do faster in windows 8/8.1 than win7 (everything has added clicks, and even MORE crap is hidden deeper). Faster makes me more money, while pretty doesn't do squat (and I don't even think win8 is pretty). I boot or shutdown my PC once a month (~patch tuesday...LOL) and rarely ever more and it runs 24/7 and a simple $70-80 SSD gets you FAR more in this area and any disk access departments. If you want to LOAD things faster get an SSD not Win8. Teracopy gives anyone good tranfer times etc anyway (free, and I've replaced Explorer anyway as file management in windows has sucked since XP, jumping folders, libraries etc who thought this crap up? Time wasters) , again no need for win8 for better estimates of file operations (is that a feature? LOL. How much did MS pay PCmag to call boot times VERY important, my SSD boots in seconds anyway). Metro crap I have no use for either. You can like this stuff, but you can't say it makes me any faster all day. Security does nothing for speed either, and that's what I have a firewall/AV/Threatfire for which beat anything MS does hands down. Any claims it's more secure won't be proved for years anyway.

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/24/battlefield_4_windows_7_vs_81_performance_review/5#.Uy0bj-LHJ8w
Win7 vs. win8 BF4. Nothing...3% for 290x AMD and they worked for 2yrs with DX11.1/Frostbite. If that's all you get for 2yrs of work and a new OS quit wasting my time/money. I'm guessing the pausing gets better 4 months later as win7 got some fixes for BF4 now that we know win8 has totally failed so surely they redirected work to win7 optimization (this game has so many bugs, stuttering can't be blamed on win7 with such a bug infested game).
"Was there an advantage to the image quality settings under Windows 8.1? The answer is "No." The performance advantages were generally small at 3-6%."
This is an AMD title and EA recommends Win8! Again, if this is all I get, buzz off, let me know when it improves my games by 25%+ for $30 Until then I'll buy a GPU for 100%+ for $200 every few years and ride the OS until it can't breathe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eO7_xFToEAI&html5=1
No better in 3dmark either? I think I'm done trying to help you find favorable data

You said a lot of what I was thinking. MS locking Dx support to a particular OS is viewed by us as a money grab. If you can offer little to no performance improvement over my current OS, show me what makes it so important to change my OS every 2-3 years. It won't be for the UI. I have a phone OS on my Phone. I sure as hell don't want to be crippled by a phone OS on my Desktop.

 

[pjlent]

Somebodyspecial is sooo right on soooo many points, it's almost like he/she has an NSA bug implanted in my head; reading my mind 8^]...From the original article, it sounds like DX12 is basically just an optimization and tweaking of the API code base (no new ground-breaking features, just faster). And your right, (whoever said it), M$ probably got scared because of AMD's Mantle API (Better, faster, & cheaper?!?... Shit we'd better fix our slow crap ASAP, before their API becomes the new standard). M$ does innovate, but ONLY when zapped with an electric cattle prod by competitors, or even partners.And as for win8.0/8.1 being faster on the "backend" than win 7 (with a really bad UI), well.... If it takes me longer to do something because the UI is FUBAR, then no amount of back-end optimization is worth it. Even my kids, who do use cell phones and other mobile devices, hated the win 8 interface on their new laptops (now that says something). I ended up having to put a free 3rd party start button replacement program on them within a few days.Oh, and to boot, I understand that doing a win-xp virtual environment is no longer supported by M$ in win 8/8.1, then it's something I'll never buy; although I guess it can be hacked if your willing to do a little work ( http://lifehacker.com/5965889/how-to-run-windows-xp-for-free-in-windows-8 ). Yes, I am using 20 year old accounting software for my business (if it isn't broken, why the hell are you trying to "fix" it by not allowing me to run legacy programs). Now many of the OCD'ers (oh you should always have the newest software updates to protect you from viruses & worms, because I'm too stupid to NOT use win-xp for web browsing when it's running in a VM under a newer OS with better browsers) on here will bitch at me about how I should upgrade the software (not possible), or migrate to new software (either crappy, and/or expensive, so why?). In the PC vs Apple wars, my go-to argument for some time has been, "go ahead and try to run 15~20 year old software on a modern apple computer with apple's OS and their constant CPU changes (motorola, power pc, intel, who's next? ARM?)". Maybe with an emulator, but it's going to be slow as frozen crap, and probably as unreliable. Point is, if your purposefully trying to make it difficult for me to use my old tried and true software from ages past, by not allowing it to run on your new OS (even though the hardware can do it), then your F-ing idiots, because your pissing off (and yet pissing on) your established customer base. If I am FORCED to use new accounting software, maybe I'll take another look at LINUX!Oh, and don't even get me started on friggen consoles.... I bought my youngest daughter a new PS3 a few years ago for Christmas, because I had (secretly) planned on using it for playing SACD's (not unlike a quadrophonic sound system of yore) on my 5.1 surround sound system. Imagine my disgust when I discovered that the "new" PS3's DID NOT have the required hardware chip (that only Sony makes) in their newer models to be able to play SACD's, because they tried to lower the price by $50. Gee, you mean the 2 year old 80gig HD version of your hardware is better, and can be bought used for a lot less? FU SONY! Leave it to Sony to kill their own format via stupidity and over zealousness (they won't even license that chip to anyone).

 

[Djentleman]

Somebodyspecial is sooo right on soooo many points, it's almost like he/she has an NSA bug implanted in my head; reading my mind 8^]...From the original article, it sounds like DX12 is basically just an optimization and tweaking of the API code base (no new ground-breaking features, just faster). And your right, (whoever said it), M$ probably got scared because of AMD's Mantle API (Better, faster, & cheaper?!?... Shit we'd better fix our slow crap ASAP, before their API becomes the new standard). M$ does innovate, but ONLY when zapped with an electric cattle prod by competitors, or even partners.And as for win8.0/8.1 being faster on the "backend" than win 7 (with a really bad UI), well.... If it takes me longer to do something because the UI is FUBAR, then no amount of back-end optimization is worth it. Even my kids, who do use cell phones and other mobile devices, hated the win 8 interface on their new laptops (now that says something). I ended up having to put a free 3rd party start button replacement program on them within a few days.Oh, and to boot, I understand that doing a win-xp virtual environment is no longer supported by M$ in win 8/8.1, then it's something I'll never buy; although I guess it can be hacked if your willing to do a little work ( http://lifehacker.com/5965889/how-to-run-windows-xp-for-free-in-windows-8 ). Yes, I am using 20 year old accounting software for my business (if it isn't broken, why the hell are you trying to "fix" it by not allowing me to run legacy programs). Now many of the OCD'ers (oh you should always have the newest software updates to protect you from viruses & worms, because I'm too stupid to NOT use win-xp for web browsing when it's running in a VM under a newer OS with better browsers) on here will bitch at me about how I should upgrade the software (not possible), or migrate to new software (either crappy, and/or expensive, so why?). In the PC vs Apple wars, my go-to argument for some time has been, "go ahead and try to run 15~20 year old software on a modern apple computer with apple's OS and their constant CPU changes (motorola, power pc, intel, who's next? ARM?)". Maybe with an emulator, but it's going to be slow as frozen crap, and probably as unreliable. Point is, if your purposefully trying to make it difficult for me to use my old tried and true software from ages past, by not allowing it to run on your new OS (even though the hardware can do it), then your F-ing idiots, because your pissing off (and yet pissing on) your established customer base. If I am FORCED to use new accounting software, maybe I'll take another look at LINUX!Oh, and don't even get me started on friggen consoles.... I bought my youngest daughter a new PS3 a few years ago for Christmas, because I had (secretly) planned on using it for playing SACD's (not unlike a quadrophonic sound system of yore) on my 5.1 surround sound system. Imagine my disgust when I discovered that the "new" PS3's DID NOT have the required hardware chip (that only Sony makes) in their newer models to be able to play SACD's, because they tried to lower the price by $50. Gee, you mean the 2 year old 80gig HD version of your hardware is better, and can be bought used for a lot less? FU SONY! Leave it to Sony to kill their own format via stupidity and over zealousness (they won't even license that chip to anyone).

There's such a thing as a "paragraph" in the English language. Check it out.

 

[pjlent]

Sorry, the "original" copy that I wrote had paragraphs, really I swear. Do I have to use raw html to get it to keep the spaces there?!?Testing,123.......

 

[pjlent]

Okay, I just put SEVERAL line spaces between the words "Testing", and the 3 digits that followed. Do I have to use the space bar to get a new paragraph?!?

 

[somebodyspecial]

http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/opengl-gdc2014/
I'm personally hoping DX12 dies, and we get massive opengl support with the help of devs aiming at android and at some point Linux/SteamOS with Valve's help. Nobody likes being stuck in DX (devs I mean) and with google/valve pushing products that can't use DX, we may finally get some movement.

Funny AMD/NV/Intel all on stage talking about OpenGL, but I guess due to websites wanting AMD to live they hide this? I saw nothing at tomshardware or anandtech on the OpenGL speech despite them announcing it on both sites a month before (feb 26th it was posted everywhere, anandtech mentioned it but didn't cover what was IN IT). What gives tomshardware? What happened to your LOVE of open crap? You preach OpenCL like Cuda doesn't exist (as cuda sits back and laughs at OpenCL's usage), but no love for OpenGL? I'm confused, unless I missed a few pages on OpenGL.

51minute video in the NV link also (from steam dev days), and Intel has a site on it too. Also a big discussion on ES3.1 for mobile too on both places.
"How to get a crap-ton more draw calls" (a new technical term he said…LOL), which clearly is telling you in the first minute, there is no need for mantle as it is about 10x draw calls right? Mantle=dead. If not by DX12 (but this isn’t out for a while-Win9?), then OpenGL/SteamOS/Android pushing OpenGL.

Is it a shot across Wintel's bow that the sign he's in front of says STEAM all over it, and he's also using a MAC for his presentation?...LOL. A ton of content at steam dev days/GDC 2014 was about moving to OpenGL as Valve says they're completely moving tools to it and giving them away so everyone moves to OpenGL. NV gave an hour speech on Draw Calls being 5-30x faster Mantle=dead. Valve won’t make DX games going forward. Gabe has ZERO love of Microsoft, windows, and their app store.

NV’s speech wasn't a SMALL speech or there wouldn't be a 130 slide doc explaining what they covered right (on top of the 52min video+many others)? Considering it is ALREADY working in opengl (same crap as mantle, even carmack said you can do the same thing already and get as close to metal as you'd like in OpenGL with extensions a YEAR ago on stage with Dice/Epic etc), I'm sure the OpenGL speeches had more concrete info than the DX speech at GDC (valve didn’t say a word about anything BUT OpenGL recently). How can you not detail the info on OpenGL and call yourself a hardware site? I know you guys hate cuda (or you'd test it vs. opencl repeatedly to death), but why the hate for OpenGL which NV has no control over?

You want mantle to help AMD so bad you can't even give a decent comment on OpenGL's behalf because that makes Mantle less important? OpenGL is not in the beta state that Mantle is basically in either. Whatever...page 3 of the slides says it all:

"OpenGL already has paths with very low driver overhead:
You just need to know what they are and HOW to use them."

Note the Mcdonald said at the end NV thought only 5 people would show up, but was a very happy about how many DID show (clapping says a LOT more showed). Also note he asked "you guys know the VR speech is going on right next door right?" and even commented they'd be in that room themselves if they weren't giving speeches...LOL. Clearly devs see the opportunity to run from DX or they would have been talking to 5 devs like they thought and they'd all be in the VR speech room. I'm just talking the NV Deve days DRAW CALL speech here, no idea how populated other OpenGL speeches were. I'm sure valve's speeches had a lot in the audience and they are TOTALLY moving tools etc to OpenGL they said. One of the speeches is titled how to move your games to OpenGL This war is just beginning but think 5-10yrs out, who wins with everyone but MS going against DX12 and it being 2yrs away? Intel isn't even on their side now, with a large amount of OpenGL info from them too (and full embrace of android), especially dedicated to mobile with ES3.1. Once games get massively on OpenGL (linux, steamos, ps3, ps4, android, ios, OSX, and even windows etc), you only have pro app people left on windows and that's a VERY small share of PC users. Those apps will move when the people do massively for gaming. For whatever is left by then you can VM, Wine, etc to run those old things as we all move on hopefully. Clearly Carmack was telling the truth last year on stage when he said you can go as close to metal as you'd like with OpenGL+extensions already. For anyone doubting that watch the 1hr vid on draw calls in the link above with John Mcdonald (nv gdc 2014 blog) No DX12 until ~xmas 2015 means you have to learn how to do it in OpenGL if you want more draw calls to run everywhere so no surprise I guess that they showed up and skipped VR.

Also while you anandtech etc comment every time mantle gets added to a game, we see nothing on gameworks stuff? Crytek adding it to warface, Titanfall now adding gameworks eye candy, The Witcher 3 using gameworks, Daylight (1st unreal 4 game) using gameworks. It can be assumed Unreal4 itself is adding it and so is CryEngine (epic already said this IIRC, if not already done). Epic works hand in hand with NV, and has unreal 4 running on K1 already, so I'd be shocked if they couldn't get their #1 friend to put their Gameworks tech in unreal4 (They work with NV on all their demos, the same can be said for Crytek adding it with them now using it on warface, it'll be put in the engine soon after probably). Not that I'm for proprietary crap, but if you're going to announce everything that happens on AMD Mantle side, you should at least mention the same junk for the other side right?

Had this up in a window for a few days...LOL. Anandtech has written something yesterday about GDC2014-OpenGL info including the 130 slides. Both sites still lacking much on it though (toms has thus far ignored it). A one page blog post from anandtech is seriously lacking and barely gets them into "well we mentioned it at least" territory. They (Ryan) also had the ridiculous statement saying Mantle's only competition was DX12 so free ride until xmas 2015 (what? OPENGL dudes, it's HERE NOW). Most of GDC was about OpenGL, but DirectX makes the news which won't be out until xmas 2015? OpenGL has the same crap it WILL have NOW.