Minion of Leshrac destroying itself

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In the olden days, you couldn't do this, but with beginning of upkeep
triggers going on the stack and all, you can... However, my question
has to do with the damage.

Anyhow, here the star performer:

Minion of Leshrac
4BBB
Creature — Demon
5/5
Protection from black
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature other than
Minion of Leshrac. If you can’t, tap Minion of Leshrac and it deals 5
damage to you.
T: Destroy target creature or land.

Beginning of Upkeep. Minion's ability goes on the stack. I tap the
Minion to destroy itself. The Upkeep Ability resolves. Tap the
Minion. Countered. Minion deals 5 damage to me. Hmm... this SEEMS
like a really dumb question. But I'm just not sure if the Minion's
damage depends on him being in play when the ability resolves.

If it was worded "If you can’t, tap Minion of Leshrac and you lose 5
life," there would be no doubt in my head.

Thanks,

Rick
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:

> In the olden days, you couldn't do this, but with beginning of upkeep
> triggers going on the stack and all, you can... However, my question
> has to do with the damage.
>
> Anyhow, here the star performer:
>
> Minion of Leshrac
> 4BBB
> Creature -- Demon
> 5/5
> Protection from black
> At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature other than
> Minion of Leshrac. If you can't, tap Minion of Leshrac and it deals 5
> damage to you.
> T: Destroy target creature or land.
>
> Beginning of Upkeep. Minion's ability goes on the stack. I tap the
> Minion to destroy itself. The Upkeep Ability resolves. Tap the
> Minion. Countered. Minion deals 5 damage to me. Hmm... this SEEMS
> like a really dumb question. But I'm just not sure if the Minion's
> damage depends on him being in play when the ability resolves.
>
> If it was worded "If you can't, tap Minion of Leshrac and you lose 5
> life," there would be no doubt in my head.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rick

Here is the relevant rule:

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the
source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal
Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the
ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or
triggered ability that references information about the source will
check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the
source's last known information if it's no longer in play.

And here is the detailed timing:

1. Upkeep step begins. Second ability of Minion of Leshrac triggers.
2. You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on
the stack. You put "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a
creature other than Minion of Leshrac. If you can't, tap Minion of
Leshrac and it deals 5 damage to you." on the stack.
3. You get priority and play the ability of Cephalid Snitch. (Exercise
for reader: Why?) You choose the Minion of Leshrac as the target and
sacrifice the Cephalid Snitch to pay the cost.
4. You get priority and pass.
5. Opponent gets priority and passes.
6. The top object on the stack (the ability played in step 3) resolves.
7. You get priority and play the "T: Destroy target creature or land."
ability of Minion of Leshrac. You choose Minion of Leshrac as the
target and tap it to pay the cost.
8. You get priority and pass.
9. Opponent gets priority and passes.
10. The top object on the stack (the ability played in step 7) resolves.
Minion of Leshrac is destroyed.
11. You get priority and pass.
12. Opponent gets priority and passes.
13. The top object on the stack (the ability put there in step 2)
resolves. You don't have a creature, so you can't sacrifice one. The
"tap Minion of Leshrac" part of the effect can't be done, but the "it
deals 5 damage to you" works just fine. Anything that cares about the
characteristics of the damage source sees the Minion of Leshrac as it
was in step 10. (The ability of Circle of Protection: Black could have
been played as recently as step 11 to prevent this damage.)
14. You get priority ....
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

<snip>

>3. You get priority and play the ability of Cephalid Snitch. (Exercise
>for reader: Why?) You choose the Minion of Leshrac as the target and
>sacrifice the Cephalid Snitch to pay the cost.

<snip>

Egad. I can't believe I missed the Protection from Black part of his
text. I forgot that I've run into this before. I remember thinking
that the REASON they gave him protection from black was probably so
that he couldn't kill himself....

Thanks for your patience...

Rick
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Rick Kunkel <NOSPAM-kunkel@w-link.net> wrote:
>In the olden days, you couldn't do this, but with beginning of upkeep
>triggers going on the stack and all, you can... However, my question
>has to do with the damage.

Well, even in the old days, upkeep effects went into batches. You just couldn't
use activated abilities of the source in response, except for certain
exceptions...

>Minion of Leshrac >4BBB >Creature - Demon
>5/5 Protection from black At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a
> creature other than ~. If you can't, tap ~ and it deals 5 damage to you. /
> Tap: Destroy target creature or land.

Yes, this, and Demonic Hordes, and some other older cards, got rather more
powerful when the 6E rules came out and they were no longer forbidden to use
their other ability in response to the upkeep-triggered ability.

>Beginning of Upkeep. Minion's ability goes on the stack. I tap the
>Minion to destroy itself. The Upkeep Ability resolves. Tap the
>Minion. Countered.

No. How are you getting the Minion activated ability, which is on the stack
on TOP of the upkeep-triggered ability, to resolve AFTER the triggered
ability does, is my first question. Also, you can't "counter" the upkeep
ability for lack of legal target, because it DOES NOT TARGET ANYTHING. And
destroying another creature befoer you can sacrifice it doesn't stop you
from having to sacrifice a creature when the triggered ability resolves.

If the Minion's ability is on the stack, then when it resolves, you WILL
sacrifice a creature other than the Minion, if you control any other
creatuers. Only if you control just the Minion, or no creatures at all, does
the "tap Minion and you are dealt 5 damage from it" come into effect. And
that happens even if you control no creatures at all, since you had to control
the Minion as upkeep STARTED, or else it could not have triggered, and this
uses the current info of the Minion if it's still in play but someone else
stole it, or the last known information about it if it left play in response.

Summary: the above doesn't work, for several reasons.

As upkeep starts, you put the triggered ability on the stack. You -may
respond to it by using the activated ability, if you want. But doing so
a) cannot make the triggered ability get countered in any way
b) cannot stop the triggered ability from resolving in any way
c) cannot stop you from having to sacrifice another creature
d) cannot "destroy the creature to be sacrificed in advance" - you don't pick
what to sacrifice until the triggered ability is resolving
e) cannot stop you from having to tap the Minion and take 5 damage if you
destroy your last other creature
etc.

> Minion deals 5 damage to me. Hmm... this SEEMS
>like a really dumb question. But I'm just not sure if the Minion's
>damage depends on him being in play when the ability resolves.

Nope. It doesn't say it does. It taps him _and_ deals 5 damage to you, labeled
as "from him". If it can't do the former, it still does the latter; if the
damage from the latter gets prevented, it still does the tapping; etc.

If it were worded "If you can't, tap ~, and if you do, it deals 5 damage to
you" then the damage would depend on tapping him. But it doesn't say that, it
just says to do both of them.

>If it was worded "If you can't, tap Minion of Leshrac and you lose 5
>life," there would be no doubt in my head.

What's different about that for this purpose? Both say to do both things...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:27:36 -0500, panoptes@iquest.net (Daniel W.
Johnson) wrote:

>3. You get priority and play the ability of Cephalid Snitch. (Exercise
>for reader: Why?)

Without looking the card up: it deals with the protblack somehow. Minion
can't target himself due to that otherwise. <looking card up>... wow. You
don't get much more specific hosers than that. My god that is a bad card.
I mean, if it was black, then I could see a point, but I just don't see a
black deck splashing blue so it can deal with potential protblack
creatures, unless some *very* strange metagaming was going on.


Jasper
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:

> You
> don't get much more specific hosers than that. My god that is a bad card.
> I mean, if it was black, then I could see a point, but I just don't see a
> black deck splashing blue so it can deal with potential protblack
> creatures, unless some *very* strange metagaming was going on.

If Cephalid Snitch were black, its ability would not be able to target a
creature with protection from black.

Also, this drifts outside the area of .rules, but Cephalid Snitch came
from Torment, a set that was 40/143 black and that included Alter
Reality. And remember that blue and black are adjacent, so a blue-black
deck is easier to build than a white-black deck (for example). Think
about which color of protection would be more annoying for a blue-black
deck.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Time to step up the meds; I could have sworn Daniel W. Johnson just
said...
> Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>
> > You
> > don't get much more specific hosers than that. My god that is a bad card.
> > I mean, if it was black, then I could see a point, but I just don't see a
> > black deck splashing blue so it can deal with potential protblack
> > creatures, unless some *very* strange metagaming was going on.
>
> If Cephalid Snitch were black, its ability would not be able to target a
> creature with protection from black.
>
> Also, this drifts outside the area of .rules, but Cephalid Snitch came
> from Torment, a set that was 40/143 black and that included Alter
> Reality. And remember that blue and black are adjacent, so a blue-black
> deck is easier to build than a white-black deck (for example). Think
> about which color of protection would be more annoying for a blue-black
> deck.

Another consideration, and this is REALLY outside the rules; Invasion
block was still Standard-legal at the time that came out. Mono was the
exception, not the rule.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>panoptes@iquest.net (Daniel W. Johnson) wrote:
>>3. You get priority and play the ability of Cephalid Snitch. (Exercise
>>for reader: Why?)
>
>Without looking the card up: it deals with the protblack somehow. Minion
>can't target himself due to that otherwise. <looking card up>... wow. You
>don't get much more specific hosers than that. My god that is a bad card.
>I mean, if it was black, then I could see a point, but I just don't see a
>black deck splashing blue so it can deal with potential protblack
>creatures, unless some *very* strange metagaming was going on.

Well, my belief here is that since blue is the color which can edit the word
"black" to whatever other color word is needed, this would go in a blue+color2
deck to deal with the pro-blue and pro-color2 stuff?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On 26 Apr 2005 07:38:51 -0400, dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com (David DeLaney)
wrote:
>Jasper Janssen <jasper@jjanssen.org> wrote:
>>panoptes@iquest.net (Daniel W. Johnson) wrote:
>>>3. You get priority and play the ability of Cephalid Snitch. (Exercise
>>>for reader: Why?)
>>
>>Without looking the card up: it deals with the protblack somehow. Minion
>>can't target himself due to that otherwise. <looking card up>... wow. You
>>don't get much more specific hosers than that. My god that is a bad card.
>>I mean, if it was black, then I could see a point, but I just don't see a
>>black deck splashing blue so it can deal with potential protblack
>>creatures, unless some *very* strange metagaming was going on.
>
>Well, my belief here is that since blue is the color which can edit the word
>"black" to whatever other color word is needed, this would go in a blue+color2
>deck to deal with the pro-blue and pro-color2 stuff?

It makes a 3-5 mana, 1-2 card-cost, 2 card combo (there are various ways
of doing it, I see, that vary from cantrips, flashbacks, entwines, and
regular instants that make the mana and effective card cost variable -- is
it just me or is Sleight of Mind strictly better than Mind Bend?) to deal
with protection not-black for 1 creature for 1 turn, and the vast majority
of the time (unless protection-from has become much more prevalent than it
used to be) it's just a 1/1 for 2.

Surely there must be better ways of dealing with a protection-from
creature? Especially in a 2 colour deck, where you'd just have threats in
both colours so you choose whichever one will work.

But hey, it's not Sorrow's Path and it's not Rare.


Jasper
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Time to step up the meds; I could have sworn Jasper Janssen just said...
> is
> it just me or is Sleight of Mind strictly better than Mind Bend?

It's just you. Mind Bend can edit basic land types; Sleight of Mind
can't.
 
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