Most inaccurate CRs?

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"eyebyte" <rbrouwer@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:1112837133.818069.18120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> The Tendriculous is a CR 6 I think...way too low for this planty
> killer...DR, regeneration, grapple etc.
>
> Also, I just read a CR 5 creature from the MM3, A Bone Claw. Undead,
> 100+ hp, 20' reach, It struck me as more powerful then a 5 from the
> reading.

We fought some advanced versions of those in a convention game, with 10th
level PCs. We were shredded like tissue paper.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:lek951teb9c4f66v7kbv9j5fnuve86eh10@4ax.com...
> On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed into
> the ether:
>
>>
>>Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>>> Hadsil wrote:
>>> > It doesn't matter why [hound archons] have 6d8 hit points; that's
>>> > still not enough for an 11th level adventure ....
>>>
>>> Hound archons also have +2 Con, which is worth another Hit Die or
>>two.
>>> Furthermore, they have DR 10/evil, SR 16, and immunity to
>>electricity.
>>> So while they will have significantly fewer hit points than an
>>> 11th-level fighter, they'll also take significantly less damage.
>>> Overall, it comes out about even, maybe even in favor of the archon.
>>>
>>> Moral of the story: Don't make snap judgments based on just one stat.
>>> --
>>> Bradd W. Szonye
>>> http://www.szonye.com/bradd
>>
>>Dwarves also get +2 Con, and they're +0.
>
> Dwarves get -2 cha and are 10 feet per round slower than a normal medium
> creature. Their con bonus doesn't exist in a vaccuum.

They also have other stat bonuses, and their move is 40'.

>> SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.
>
> Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
> spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...
>
> SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level 6.
> Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.

At level 6, magical spells are not all that tough to begin with.

>> I think its +5 ECL is high, but that doesn't mean it has to be +0
>> either.
>> I still say 9th level is a good start, i.e. +3 ECL.
>
> Seems fairly decent, since Hound Archons really come with few (any?)
> mechanical drawbacks, and a giant pile of bonuses. If you really play up
> the alignment side, and have a game world with a lot of persecution
> towards
> non-core races (a walking, talking, glowing man-dog would certainly
> qualify) then those would be fairly significant.

They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so. The other thing I am not
seeing much mention of is the teleportation. That is a *very* powerful
ability.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:39:15 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Someone here once suggested the following adjustments to Dragon CR:
>
> If the CR is 1-4, double it; if it is 5 or higher, add 4. That seems to
> work out pretty well, especially if you are using the Draconomicon.

IME, not using the Draconomicon, dragons in the CR8-12 range are about
right, and certainly not more than CR +1-2 higher than they should be.
The game I ran had the party meet, and fight, 4-5 dragons in that
range and they didn't seem any tougher than I expected.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Bradd wrote:
>> Hound archons also have +2 Con, which is worth another Hit Die or
>> two. Furthermore, they have DR 10/evil, SR 16, and immunity to
>> electricity. So while they will have significantly fewer hit points
>> than an 11th-level fighter, they'll also take significantly less
>> damage. Overall, it comes out about even, maybe even in favor of the
>> archon.
>>
>> Moral of the story: Don't make snap judgments based on just one stat.


Hadsil wrote:
> Dwarves also get +2 Con, and they're +0 ....

So what, Gerald? What part of "Don't make snap judgments based on just
one stat" did you not understand?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:06:59 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:


Didn't get the original post...

>"eyebyte" <rbrouwer@rogers.com> wrote in message
>news:1112837133.818069.18120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> The Tendriculous is a CR 6 I think...way too low for this planty
>> killer...DR, regeneration, grapple etc.
>>
>> Also, I just read a CR 5 creature from the MM3, A Bone Claw. Undead,
>> 100+ hp, 20' reach, It struck me as more powerful then a 5 from the
>> reading.
>
>We fought some advanced versions of those in a convention game, with 10th
>level PCs. We were shredded like tissue paper.

Given a cleric, the CR5 version doesn't seem all *that* difficult...keep it
turned and all of its combat ability is negated.

But CRs can't be based on the assumption of a cleric. That thing does seem
too strong.

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:av3b51lq6h1bq8cqg36rjush4a2qesetqa@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:06:59 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>
> Didn't get the original post...
>
>>"eyebyte" <rbrouwer@rogers.com> wrote in message
>>news:1112837133.818069.18120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> The Tendriculous is a CR 6 I think...way too low for this planty
>>> killer...DR, regeneration, grapple etc.
>>>
>>> Also, I just read a CR 5 creature from the MM3, A Bone Claw. Undead,
>>> 100+ hp, 20' reach, It struck me as more powerful then a 5 from the
>>> reading.
>>
>>We fought some advanced versions of those in a convention game, with 10th
>>level PCs. We were shredded like tissue paper.
>
> Given a cleric, the CR5 version doesn't seem all *that* difficult...keep
> it
> turned and all of its combat ability is negated.

We were unable to turn them. The party was almost *all* clerics and
paladins. I believe the area was desecrated or something.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:09:54 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:

>
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:lek951teb9c4f66v7kbv9j5fnuve86eh10@4ax.com...
>> On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed into
>> the ether:
>>
>>>


>>> SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.
>>
>> Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
>> spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...
>>
>> SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level 6.
>> Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.
>
>At level 6, magical spells are not all that tough to begin with.

A sleep spell at level 1 can doom an entire party. Level 6 is where you
start running into the possibility of NPC fireballs and hold spells. Magic
is certainly more common at higher levels, but it isn't unimportant early
on.

>>> I think its +5 ECL is high, but that doesn't mean it has to be +0
>>> either.
>>> I still say 9th level is a good start, i.e. +3 ECL.
>>
>> Seems fairly decent, since Hound Archons really come with few (any?)
>> mechanical drawbacks, and a giant pile of bonuses. If you really play up
>> the alignment side, and have a game world with a lot of persecution
>> towards non-core races (a walking, talking, glowing man-dog would certainly
>> qualify) then those would be fairly significant.
>
>They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.

Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
difference between celestials and infernals.

> The other thing I am not seeing much mention of is the teleportation.
> That is a *very* powerful ability.

There is also the Aura of Menace, which will improve with class levels.

Shapechanging into any dog form at will is also not without it's merits. A
lot more limiting in form than Polymorph Self, but it's still nearly
duplicating a 4th level spell, and is "at will" with no per day
restrictions to boot.

 

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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:b24b519os3fa5t2o1q1gh6fsccrrbn2uu2@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:09:54 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>>
>>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>>news:lek951teb9c4f66v7kbv9j5fnuve86eh10@4ax.com...
>>> On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed
>>> into
>>> the ether:
>>>
>>>>
>
>
>>>> SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.
>>>
>>> Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
>>> spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...
>>>
>>> SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level
>>> 6.
>>> Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.
>>
>>At level 6, magical spells are not all that tough to begin with.
>
> A sleep spell at level 1 can doom an entire party.

....but not a Hound Archon.

> Level 6 is where you
> start running into the possibility of NPC fireballs

That is a pretty insignificant fireball, really.

> and hold spells.

You mean Hold Person, which does not work on Outsiders?

> Magic is certainly more common at higher levels, but it isn't unimportant
> early
> on.
>
>>>> I think its +5 ECL is high, but that doesn't mean it has to be +0
>>>> either.
>>>> I still say 9th level is a good start, i.e. +3 ECL.
>>>
>>> Seems fairly decent, since Hound Archons really come with few (any?)
>>> mechanical drawbacks, and a giant pile of bonuses. If you really play up
>>> the alignment side, and have a game world with a lot of persecution
>>> towards non-core races (a walking, talking, glowing man-dog would
>>> certainly
>>> qualify) then those would be fairly significant.
>>
>>They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.
>
> Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
> difference between celestials and infernals.

Check their description in the Monster Manual.

>> The other thing I am not seeing much mention of is the teleportation.
>> That is a *very* powerful ability.
>
> There is also the Aura of Menace, which will improve with class levels.

It also fails as soon as you damage the Hound Archon. Not very effective,
really.

> Shapechanging into any dog form at will is also not without it's merits. A
> lot more limiting in form than Polymorph Self, but it's still nearly
> duplicating a 4th level spell, and is "at will" with no per day
> restrictions to boot.

Agreed.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley

 

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In article <av3b51lq6h1bq8cqg36rjush4a2qesetqa@4ax.com>,
Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>But CRs can't be based on the assumption of a cleric. That thing does seem
>too strong.

I've heard that *modules* are based on the presumption of the skills of the
standard party -- fighter, cleric, scount, mage. So why can't CRs be based on
the same assumption?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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MI wrote:
>> They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.

Matt Frisch wrote:
> Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
> difference between celestials and infernals.

Too silly! You really think they'll need an explanation?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Matt Frisch wrote:
>
> Given a cleric, the CR5 version doesn't seem all *that*
difficult...keep it
> turned and all of its combat ability is negated.
>
> But CRs can't be based on the assumption of a cleric. That thing does
seem
> too strong.

Would it be a reasonable house rule to make the basic cleric ability
work like keeping a vampire at bay? (What would be a good name for
this? Repel Undead? Avert Undead? Undead Ward?) The distance could
be fifteen or twenty feet, so the ability continues to be useful to the
rest of the party.

Feats would be available to improve this ability to either Turn Undead
or Command Undead as we currently have them. It seems like this sort
of treatment could reduce the big gap in undead-encounter difficulty
for parties with and without clerics.

--Iss

 

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On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:19:22 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
scribed into the ether:

>MI wrote:
>>> They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.
>
>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
>> difference between celestials and infernals.
>
>Too silly! You really think they'll need an explanation?

Depends on just how enlightened these peasants are. If you are lifting them
from the middle ages, then no explanation will suffice...it's torches and
pitchforks (even ignoring that the character is not in any danger from such
an attack, not being able to interact with the populace is going to be a
major stumbling block) from the get-go.

If you go with village folk taken from Elizabeth Moon's northern kingdoms,
then they might be convinced to listen to reason.

 

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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:51:38 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:

>
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:b24b519os3fa5t2o1q1gh6fsccrrbn2uu2@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:09:54 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
>> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>
>>>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>>>news:lek951teb9c4f66v7kbv9j5fnuve86eh10@4ax.com...
>>>> On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed
>>>> into
>>>> the ether:
>>>>
>>>>> SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.
>>>>
>>>> Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
>>>> spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...
>>>>
>>>> SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level
>>>> 6.
>>>> Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.
>>>
>>>At level 6, magical spells are not all that tough to begin with.
>>
>> A sleep spell at level 1 can doom an entire party.
>
>...but not a Hound Archon.

Who would not be level 1 anyway...this is just giving some examples of low
level magic being a concern, and the value of SR16, not looking for
specific threats against the Hound.

[snip more refutations]

>>>They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.
>>
>> Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
>> difference between celestials and infernals.
>
>Check their description in the Monster Manual.

Maybe there is some info in the 3.5MM that is not listed in my 3.0 version,
but nothing I can see really leaps out to show why people who don't know
what a Hound Archon is would have any reason to trust it over any other
non-standard-pc-race.

>>> The other thing I am not seeing much mention of is the teleportation.
>>> That is a *very* powerful ability.
>>
>> There is also the Aura of Menace, which will improve with class levels.
>
>It also fails as soon as you damage the Hound Archon. Not very effective,
>really.

Ah, but it does work on everyone, whether they are fighting the Hound or
not. Other members of the party will reap the benefit while being attacked.
Especially relevant in a melee-heavy party where the bulk of the opponents
are not going to be attacking the Hound.

It's not the ultimate ability, but you can't just ignore it either.

>> Shapechanging into any dog form at will is also not without it's merits. A
>> lot more limiting in form than Polymorph Self, but it's still nearly
>> duplicating a 4th level spell, and is "at will" with no per day
>> restrictions to boot.
>
>Agreed.

And it just occured to me that turning into the party's pet dog would be a
hell of a way to get around problems with the natives that might arise from
their natural form.

 

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On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:06:09 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
<capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:

>
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:av3b51lq6h1bq8cqg36rjush4a2qesetqa@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:06:59 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
>> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:
>>
>>
>> Didn't get the original post...
>>
>>>"eyebyte" <rbrouwer@rogers.com> wrote in message
>>>news:1112837133.818069.18120@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> The Tendriculous is a CR 6 I think...way too low for this planty
>>>> killer...DR, regeneration, grapple etc.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I just read a CR 5 creature from the MM3, A Bone Claw. Undead,
>>>> 100+ hp, 20' reach, It struck me as more powerful then a 5 from the
>>>> reading.
>>>
>>>We fought some advanced versions of those in a convention game, with 10th
>>>level PCs. We were shredded like tissue paper.
>>
>> Given a cleric, the CR5 version doesn't seem all *that* difficult...keep
>> it
>> turned and all of its combat ability is negated.
>
>We were unable to turn them. The party was almost *all* clerics and
>paladins. I believe the area was desecrated or something.

Well, that's a recipe for a TPK indeed.

 

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On 7 Apr 2005 20:42:17 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
scribed into the ether:

>In article <av3b51lq6h1bq8cqg36rjush4a2qesetqa@4ax.com>,
>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>>But CRs can't be based on the assumption of a cleric. That thing does seem
>>too strong.
>
>I've heard that *modules* are based on the presumption of the skills of the
>standard party -- fighter, cleric, scount, mage. So why can't CRs be based on
>the same assumption?

The DMG says it isn't. It gives advice to the DM about certain kinds of
encounters being easier with certain abilities, but it mentions that you
don't change CRs based on that. ELs (and thus XP earned) can vary on that
basis, but not CRs.

 

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On 6 Apr 2005 16:21:23 -0700, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com> carved
upon a tablet of ether:

> IME if it is a dark night and the engagement is outside a smart
> dragon is MUCH more powerful than CR would indicate, quite likely
> a TPK vs. an equal level fresh party. It has better, longer range
> senses that the party, and hence is only in sight during flyovers
> to breath (or whatever).

A black dragon in swamps with deep water handy will quite easily kill
a careless party, too. However this sort of thing is preventable with
proper planning.

> If you catch a dragon where much of this isn't aplicable (like
> a typical dungeon room) it goes down without excessive trouble,
> if it can take advantage of the ability synergies (fly and breath;
> spells and melee; flyby, reach, and melee;...) it starts getting
> deadly for the CR.

Until at least mid age levels a dragon's breath weapon isn't that
special - it's handily outranged by bowfire and most spells, and it
doesn't do enough damage to overcome the expected elemental
protections of a prepared party. That means the dragon really needs to
melee, and unless there's no cover around a party should be able to
minimise fly-bys. The big thing is that preparation makes a really big
difference, and tactical screwups by players are very expensive
because the dragon has many options.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Issachar44 wrote:

> Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>>Given a cleric, the CR5 version doesn't seem all *that*
>
> difficult...keep it
>
>>turned and all of its combat ability is negated.
>>
>>But CRs can't be based on the assumption of a cleric. That thing does
>
> seem
>
>>too strong.
>
>
> Would it be a reasonable house rule to make the basic cleric ability
> work like keeping a vampire at bay? (What would be a good name for
> this? Repel Undead? Avert Undead? Undead Ward?) The distance could
> be fifteen or twenty feet, so the ability continues to be useful to the
> rest of the party.
>
> Feats would be available to improve this ability to either Turn Undead
> or Command Undead as we currently have them. It seems like this sort
> of treatment could reduce the big gap in undead-encounter difficulty
> for parties with and without clerics.
>
> --Iss
>

This really depends on the "world feel" that you are looking for.
Holding at bay/1 for 1 round/level, or for duration of concentration
(max 1 min level) makes for quite a different flavor of game. Fun, in my
opinion, as I like the ominous undead.

However, I don't think you'd change the difficulty gap of parties
with/without clerics. Those with clerics will still have a great advantage.

CH

 

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Holding at bay... very interesting. I like it - maybe a house rule
like:

1) "normal" successful turn check - undead are held at bay (can't enter
turn radius)
2) turn check is 4 or more greater than what is needed to turn the
undead - causes undead to flee, per RAW. If cornered, they cower, RAW
3) Destroy undead if cleric has twice the HD of the undead, RAW

if the turning cleric causes the undead to enter the turn radius by
cornering it and continuing, the cleric is giving up the turn. If the
undead is cornered by the turn (but the cleric stays far enough away
that the undead is not forced into the radius), assuming the undead is
at bay rather than panicked, the undead should get some kind of opposed
check vs the turning roll each round it takes damage to overcome the
turning, maybe d20 + HD? Makes fighting undead a little scarier 🙂

 

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Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 6 Apr 2005 16:21:23 -0700, "DougL" <doug.lampert@tdytsi.com>
carved
> upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > IME if it is a dark night and the engagement is outside a smart
> > dragon is MUCH more powerful than CR would indicate, quite likely
> > a TPK vs. an equal level fresh party. It has better, longer range
> > senses that the party, and hence is only in sight during flyovers
> > to breath (or whatever).
>
> A black dragon in swamps with deep water handy will quite easily kill
> a careless party, too. However this sort of thing is preventable with
> proper planning.

Why do you assume ANY planning!?!

They should beat an equal CR foe in a come as you are withno
special prep and losses of no more than about 25% of consumables.

This is a HENCHMAN or minor obstacle level dragon we are talking
about, a Boss dragon where it is appropriate to assume prep
should be +2 to +4 CR above the average party level.

Do they need "proper planning" to deal with other equal CR
monsters? Say 4 level 5 ork warriors for a level 8 party?

> > If you catch a dragon where much of this isn't aplicable (like
> > a typical dungeon room) it goes down without excessive trouble,
> > if it can take advantage of the ability synergies (fly and breath;
> > spells and melee; flyby, reach, and melee;...) it starts getting
> > deadly for the CR.
>
> Until at least mid age levels a dragon's breath weapon isn't that
> special - it's handily outranged by bowfire and most spells, and it
> doesn't do enough damage to overcome the expected elemental
> protections of a prepared party. That means the dragon really needs
to
> melee, and unless there's no cover around a party should be able to
> minimise fly-bys. The big thing is that preparation makes a really
big
> difference, and tactical screwups by players are very expensive
> because the dragon has many options.

Outranged by spells and bows is why I MENTIONED that the Dragon's
SENSES and MOVEMENT outrange the party, the breath weapon could
be max range 15' and it wouldn't matter as long as the area was
large enough to catch the party. They get a shot, it gets a shot,
it comes back and takes a shot, they get a shot, ...

Again elemental protections are only UP if you were expecting
a dragon, and note that I pointed out specifically that it is
smart enough to pull back and wait out durations, 10 min per
level is no real help unless they have some way to lose it during
that time.

And minor screwups against an equal CR foe by a fresh party should
carry little risk of a TPK, if they carry a substantial risk against
a dragon that is yet more evidence that the dragon CR is wrong.

DougL

 

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On 8 Apr 2005 06:31:06 -0700, "Issachar44" <Issachar44@gmail.com> scribed
into the ether:

>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>
>> Given a cleric, the CR5 version doesn't seem all *that*
>difficult...keep it
>> turned and all of its combat ability is negated.
>>
>> But CRs can't be based on the assumption of a cleric. That thing does
>seem
>> too strong.
>
>Would it be a reasonable house rule to make the basic cleric ability
>work like keeping a vampire at bay? (What would be a good name for
>this? Repel Undead? Avert Undead? Undead Ward?) The distance could
>be fifteen or twenty feet, so the ability continues to be useful to the
>rest of the party.

Fear an undead into a corner so it can't run anymore, and have it be
attacked by someone besides the cleric, and it's pretty much helpless. If
it were even possible to coup de grace an undead, that would be the
effective result.

Does seem like a decent enough modification to the ability, if you find
basic Turning to be too powerful. Fits in with the established genre as
well. You'd need to come up with the results of the cornering...if the
undead is physically unable to retreat out of the protected area, what
happens? Undead turned by the RAW just run in panic, but an undead repelled
in this manner would be fully in control of its actions, just unable to
enter a specific area.

 

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Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:19:22 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
> scribed into the ether:
>>MI wrote:
>>>> They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.

>>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>> Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
>>> difference between celestials and infernals.

>>Too silly! You really think they'll need an explanation?

> Depends on just how enlightened these peasants are. If you are lifting them
> from the middle ages, then no explanation will suffice...it's torches and
> pitchforks (even ignoring that the character is not in any danger from such
> an attack, not being able to interact with the populace is going to be a
> major stumbling block) from the get-go.

They are obviously celestials. Why would peasants attack them?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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Matt Frisch wrote:

> On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed into
> the ether:
>
>
>>Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>>
>>>Hadsil wrote:
>>>
>>>>It doesn't matter why [hound archons] have 6d8 hit points; that's
>>>>still not enough for an 11th level adventure ....
>>>
>>>Hound archons also have +2 Con, which is worth another Hit Die or
>>
>>two.
>>
>>>Furthermore, they have DR 10/evil, SR 16, and immunity to
>>
>>electricity.
>>
>>>So while they will have significantly fewer hit points than an
>>>11th-level fighter, they'll also take significantly less damage.
>>>Overall, it comes out about even, maybe even in favor of the archon.
>>>
>>>Moral of the story: Don't make snap judgments based on just one stat.
>>>--
>>>Bradd W. Szonye
>>>http://www.szonye.com/bradd
>>
>>Dwarves also get +2 Con, and they're +0.
>
>
> Dwarves get -2 cha and are 10 feet per round slower than a normal medium
> creature. Their con bonus doesn't exist in a vaccuum.
>
>
>>SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.
>
>
> Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
> spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...
>
> SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level 6.
> Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.

Doesn't it increase as the archon gains levels, like a drow's does?

- Ron ^*^

 

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Matt Frisch wrote:

> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:51:38 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
> <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>
>>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>>news:b24b519os3fa5t2o1q1gh6fsccrrbn2uu2@4ax.com...
>>
>>>On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:09:54 -0700, "Malachias Invictus"
>>><capt_malachias@hotmail.com> scribed into the ether:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:lek951teb9c4f66v7kbv9j5fnuve86eh10@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>>On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed
>>>>>into
>>>>>the ether:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.
>>>>>
>>>>>Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
>>>>>spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...
>>>>>
>>>>>SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level
>>>>>6.
>>>>>Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.
>>>>
>>>>At level 6, magical spells are not all that tough to begin with.
>>>
>>>A sleep spell at level 1 can doom an entire party.
>>
>>...but not a Hound Archon.
>
>
> Who would not be level 1 anyway...this is just giving some examples of low
> level magic being a concern, and the value of SR16, not looking for
> specific threats against the Hound.
>
> [snip more refutations]
>
>
>>>>They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.
>>>
>>>Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
>>>difference between celestials and infernals.
>>
>>Check their description in the Monster Manual.
>
>
> Maybe there is some info in the 3.5MM that is not listed in my 3.0 version,
> but nothing I can see really leaps out to show why people who don't know
> what a Hound Archon is would have any reason to trust it over any other
> non-standard-pc-race.
>
>
>>>>The other thing I am not seeing much mention of is the teleportation.
>>>> That is a *very* powerful ability.
>>>
>>>There is also the Aura of Menace, which will improve with class levels.
>>
>>It also fails as soon as you damage the Hound Archon. Not very effective,
>>really.
>
>
> Ah, but it does work on everyone, whether they are fighting the Hound or
> not. Other members of the party will reap the benefit while being attacked.
> Especially relevant in a melee-heavy party where the bulk of the opponents
> are not going to be attacking the Hound.
>
> It's not the ultimate ability, but you can't just ignore it either.
>
>
>>>Shapechanging into any dog form at will is also not without it's merits. A
>>>lot more limiting in form than Polymorph Self, but it's still nearly
>>>duplicating a 4th level spell, and is "at will" with no per day
>>>restrictions to boot.
>>
>>Agreed.
>
>
> And it just occured to me that turning into the party's pet dog would be a
> hell of a way to get around problems with the natives that might arise from
> their natural form.

I'd kinda figured that would be the whole point of that ability, actually.

- Ron ^*^

 

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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:49:47 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
scribed into the ether:

>Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 21:19:22 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com>
>> scribed into the ether:
>>>MI wrote:
>>>>> They *are* celestials, though, and obviously so.
>
>>>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>>> Paranoid villagers are not likely to stop for an explanation about the
>>>> difference between celestials and infernals.
>
>>>Too silly! You really think they'll need an explanation?
>
>> Depends on just how enlightened these peasants are. If you are lifting them
>> from the middle ages, then no explanation will suffice...it's torches and
>> pitchforks (even ignoring that the character is not in any danger from such
>> an attack, not being able to interact with the populace is going to be a
>> major stumbling block) from the get-go.
>
>They are obviously celestials. Why would peasants attack them?

The unknown is dangerous. That's even more true in a D&D universe than it
is here. Celestials, and Hound Archons in particular, can effortlessly be
confused with genuine monsters. Do peasants get a guidebook on telling
Celestials apart from Infernals? If people automatically trust anything
that looks Celestial, then that gives Evil a big open door to exploit
gullible tools by means of a polymorph spell.

Unless there is some compelling reason that joe average peasant is going to
A) Know what a Hound Archon is, and B) Be able to reliably identify one by
sight, I can't think of any reason why they would trust the walking,
talking, glowing man-dog.

 

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On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:51:59 -0400, Werebat <ranpoirier@cox.net> scribed
into the ether:

>
>
>Matt Frisch wrote:
>
>> On 6 Apr 2005 21:35:57 -0700, "Hadsil" <forumite@netzero.com> scribed into
>> the ether:

>>>SR 16 gets trivial. Drow have spell resistance and they're only +2.
>>
>>
>> Plus all the basic elven traits (except weapon proficiencies) and innate
>> spell-like abilities, and a racial save bonus, and darkvision...
>>
>> SR16 is 50% immunity to incoming magic vs even level opponents at level 6.
>> Prior to that, it is even better. That's some heady stuff there.
>
>Doesn't it increase as the archon gains levels, like a drow's does?

I couldn't find anything to support that in my 3.0MM, but it is really
light on rules for monster advancement. This is also a celestial advancing
with PC class levels, not conventional "make me bigger" advancement as the
MM describes. Unless the class in question is Monk, I don't think it would
improve.