Mozilla: EU's Win 7 Browser Ballot is Favoritism

[groveborn]

People, people, you're not getting the point. This isn't about the consumer, this is about the other browser and search engines. The "consumer choice" is not about the people, but about business and money. If it was about the average person, there would be no choice, MS has an operational and free product included with their OS (though, since it's integrated, technically the browser isn't included, it's part of the OS...) I'm sure lots of people paid really good money to get those stupid politicians to hear their complaints.

 

[ceteras]

All this storm in a glass of whater.
Just from curiosity, I've asked one of my clients this question: "do you know there are other browsers out there, and some of them are even better?"
A: "what's a browser? [..] I only know that when I want to go to the internet, I click on the blue icon on the screen! Why should it be more complicated?"
They don't care which browser is better, even when their IE crashes they just want me to fix it, and stay with the routine.
The only alternative accepted was Chrome, because it's so "stylish" ).

 

[backbydemand]

I will get on board with the ballot screen when it is a level playing field, if the EU institute a law that says all operating systems must either have a choice of browsers at installation or none at all.

But it's not a level playing field.
Various Linux distros have Firefox, Apple has Safari, Windows has IE.

So the arguement then becomes esoteric, leading more to saying that an "average" person may be "confused" by the integration for the majority OS.

Isn't this another way of the authorities saying the public are stupid? Why does the rule not apply to Apple? Is it just because they have such a low market share? Does the rule only come into effect when a certain percentage of the public are users? If Apple takes over from Windows as the dominant system and gains 50.1% of the user market will the EU swoop in and demand that IE and Firefox be added to the Mac? If Linux has a 50.1% share will the same happen? If it does not then is it because Linux is free as well? If this is the case then why is a product that people have to pay for ruled against for bundling something that is free?

This issue does solve any problems, it only raises more questions. In attempting to make something which was already simple even simpler for "average" people the EU have opened a huge can of worms, insulted the intelligence of nearly 500 million people and created a technical quagmire that will ultimately make things more confusing, not easier.

 

[scuba dave]

Wow, 2 pages of comments, and not a single one pointed out "why" there is such a big deal about windows and IE. Man this makes me feel old. Does no one remember/ even old enough to remember "why" the US had the anti-trust against Microsoft? Or what started it? Brace yourselves for a wall of text.. 🙁

Back in the day(lol) internet browsers were a completely separate product from any OS. It always came as a stand alone product that had to be purchased separately, and as such, a lot of companies dipped their hands into that pie. Microsoft, saw the potential for more money and decided they wanted to "wipe" the other browsers off the globe, metaphorically speaking. For example, Netscape.

Microsoft then started to bundle their product into their OS starting with windows 95, and ALL of the other companies that had been thriving, were faced with now trying to push an obsolete product. (Why would someone go buy something if they have one for free already?) The government warned Microsoft, don't do it again, or that they would begin anti-trust proceedings. They said okay, sure. And then did the same with windows 98.

So the govt filed suit, etc, etc. Microsoft's main argument is that IE wasn't bundled software, but was now the "backbone" OS. That it simply could not be removed. That for "better or worse" IE is the "new" direction that windows was taking.

And that's where we are today. Windows practically killed the market for 3rd party browsers. Thank god it's recovering.. albeit slowly. They changed the browser slowly but surely, heading in the direction they claimed they would. Of course, its debatable whether or not this is because that's the path they wanted to take it, OR to avoid another suit while killing Netscape(which evidence in court proved they stated), etc.

So the end result of everything is ANY time anything comes up about IE, everyone gets heated because of the suit. It set precedence, and the 3rd party browsers are looking to protect their product. Anyone that says they wouldn't do the same is only fooling themselves.

[citation][nom]ravewulf[/nom]Mozilla, if you make your own OS, then you can bundle FF as the only browser. Apple does this too. Bundling your own products together is not a crime. You simply don't force your competition to bundle your browser too. Market FF more! Make your own OS! Linux already mostly uses FF as default anyway. This is completely ridiculous and immature.[/citation]

I agree, bundling isn't illegal, but when coupled with EVERYTHING else that Microsoft does, and has done, the government determined it was an unfair practice, for Microsoft to do. Apple doesn't get the attention for their OS because they aren't a monopoly. Unfortunately the government doesn't have unlimited resources, and more often than not, has to go after the biggest violator. Microsoft unfortunately wears that crown. If apple had 90% of the OS market, they would be treated exactly the same.

However, my personal view on this multi-browser bundling is.. No. It doesn't solve the problem that Microsoft is now, and still will be effectively the largest government authorized monopoly.

 

[Guest]

Sure are a lot of MS fangirlz here who don't have a f_cking clue!

The EU does not care what browser is bundled with Win 7!
The fact that it's welded to the OS and cannot be removed without breaking the OS is the issue, it's a permanent lock in!

With Linux or OS X, you can remove the browser if you so chose.
I dare you to try and trash IE!

Read this if you're able, and don't skip through it.
MS has been shoving IE up your sorry asses for more than 10 years and you clowns are asking for more!
(are you latent homosexuals, or MS shills and apologists)

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm

The last paragraph.

412. Most harmful of all is the message that Microsoft's actions have conveyed to every enterprise with the potential to innovate in the computer industry. Through its conduct toward Netscape, IBM, Compaq, Intel, and others, Microsoft has demonstrated that it will use its prodigious market power and immense profits to harm any firm that insists on pursuing initiatives that could intensify competition against one of Microsoft's core products. Microsoft's past success in hurting such companies and stifling innovation deters investment in technologies and businesses that exhibit the potential to threaten Microsoft. The ultimate result is that some innovations that would truly benefit consumers never occur for the sole reason that they do not coincide with Microsoft's self-interest.

 

[lafery]

Cry more n00b... geee

 

[blackened144]

[citation][nom]Mr B[/nom]Sure are a lot of MS fangirlz here who don't have a f_cking clue!The EU does not care what browser is bundled with Win 7! The fact that it's welded to the OS and cannot be removed without breaking the OS is the issue, it's a permanent lock in! [/citation]

There is a perfect solution for this that doesnt require MS to do anything. Dont use Windows. There. Problem solved.

 

[backbydemand]

I dont use Windows Media Player for music, I use Winamp but I dont go to the trouble of trying to delete WMP. I use hotmail for my email, but do I try to uninstall Outlook Express? No, I just dont use it. I use Photoshop CS3 to edit pictures, but do I try to uninstall Paint? No, I just dont use it. I use MS Word to write letters, but do I try to uninstall Wordpad or Notepad? No, I JUST DONT FUCKING USE IT!!!

So, to those who cry they cant remove IE from Windows...
BOO FUCKING HOO
Dont remove it, just dont use it!!!

 

[bfstev]

Im just waiting for FF to bitch about other OS's like linux since they seem to be loosing market share there to chrome

 

[joel100011]

This is crap really....when I buy a Toyota, I get a Toyota branded radio. I don't have a check box for every manufacturer of radio on the planet, let alone having all of them in the trunk and I can decide what one I am going to use. When I buy a Microsoft O/S, I get a Microsoft browser...and now advertising for every other browser company. I am happy getting IE and having the option of anything else I want (typing this in Chrome right now). I still remember having to figure out how to get on the internet to be able to get Netscape and think IE included is wonderful.

This just really makes no sense to me. IE has become a part of the O/S (for better or worse) I think Google should have to include IE when they send out their O/S...and Mozilla should try an O/S since they don't seem to be doing too much with their browser anymore except browsing lawsuits

 

[joel100011]

This is crap really....when I buy a Toyota, I get a Toyota branded radio. I don't have a check box for every manufacturer of radio on the planet, let alone having all of them in the trunk and I can decide what one I am going to use. When I buy a Microsoft O/S, I get a Microsoft browser...and now advertising for every other browser company. I am happy getting IE and having the option of anything else I want (typing this in Chrome right now). I still remember having to figure out how to get on the internet to be able to get Netscape and think IE included is wonderful.

This just really makes no sense to me. IE has become a part of the O/S (for better or worse) I think Google should have to include IE when they send out their O/S...and Mozilla should try an O/S since they don't seem to be doing too much with their browser anymore except browsing lawsuits

 

[Guest]

I think the EU, Opera, and Mozilla need to stfu. Opera won't ever become big compared to IE or Firefox.

Firefox is doing well converting users on it's own.

The EU is using MS and Intel to fun their economic recovery. MS should pull ALL MS licenses from all EU countries, then start suing people who don't uninstall the software.

Mozilla and Opera would be NOWHERE without Windows. Period. End of Story. Where's the EU suing Apple for the bundling of OSX to the hardware?

 

[Guest]

Windows should come with a stand-alone update utility like other OS's. They will continue to have these problems until they realize this.

 

[rainforest2]

I do not understand why all you guys worry too much about Internet Explorer at all. I have my Internet Explorer on my pc, laptop, etc.. I rarely use it. I use most of on Firefox and Chrome. Only exception, when I could not use the Firefox or Chrome to some website and it returns me without uniform webpages. Then I will use IE to go that website. But 90% web browser I used mostly Firefox, Chrome, the last one will be IE. Guys stop bring these topics up all the time. IE is eating too much memory. Even you close out the IE but the memory still occupy it. So I rarely use IE. I predict that Apple will dominate the market soon. There stocks grow from few dollars to 170 right now. Apple is a good and quality product compare to other company like HP,Dell, IBM product. I predict that Microsoft will not have much saying in technology in future at all. Apple will be calling the shot. Window technology is over all bad. Nothing is good and reliable at all. I already ipod Touch. In the next few more months, let see how the economy look, I will try to buy Apple laptop instead of PC laptop.

 

[rainforest2]

All my coworkers are using Firefox or Chrome and rarely see IE. What the hell they are whining about?? If Firefox continue delivering good quality product, then users will continue download and using FF product. If you delivery bad product, even God can not help you either. Stop whining, concentrate to delivery good quality product just like Apple computer. About a year ago, you see Apple under 30 Dollar, now you see it is above 170 Dollar. I do not think that Apple careless about IE load on Windows box. If the IE continue use a lot of resource from the memory or when close out IE and memory is still there, then I do not use it. It is so simple and I still do not understand why you still complain about?? All these years, I know that MS invest a lot into research but I do not see any good quality product from them at all. I predict within 5 to 10 years that MS will be fade out in history if they continue using BS OS. Now we have the new dominant company out there to replace MS is the APPLE corp. I predict that Apple will call the shot of new technology in future not MS.

 

[kentlowt]

If I was Microsoft I would charge a licensing fee to include them in the ballot.

 

[Guest]

your web browser, file browser, updates, windows media browser all run on the same IE code. All Microsoft code. It'd be stupid to create brand new code for each thing. It's the difference between making a mould and carving brand new pieces by hand. it'd be a waste of time and bad business for microsoft to do it that way. Mozilla should make an OS that's more comprihensive and easier to use if they want to have any sway in the OS market. People whine about a microsoft 'monopoly' when nobody has put the time and effort into something as simple and standardized as windows is (without the extra $1000 tacked on for a mac). Linux is getting tons better, but still nowhere near as easy as even older versions of windows. Windows is the OS for the masses, and until someone tries to make something better/simpler/cheaper, it's gonna stay that way. Mozilla should be ecstatic with what they have already.

P.S. if mozilla made their browser so it would easily port into a file browser, update handler, etc... and handle everything as simply and beautifully as IE does, they'd have a better case. In my opinion of course

 

[geoffs]

[citation][nom]backbydemand[/nom]But it's not a level playing field.Various Linux distros have Firefox, Apple has Safari, Windows has IE.[/citation]But with those other OS, the browser isn't integrated into the OS, you can remove it install another browser. MS provides no way to remove IE8 and in fact maintains that it's not possible to do so. You can install another browser on Windows, but there is no facility to remove IE.

Why does the rule not apply to Apple? Is it just because they have such a low market share?

Yes, that's the nature of a monopoly and that's what anti-trust statutes address. If Apple had 80+% market share, you might see the EU doing the same thing to them. In fact, if you look, they have made some similar rulings about the iPod since Apple does have about 70% market share for players and for online music sales.

 

[geoffs]

[citation][nom]joel100011[/nom]This is crap really....when I buy a Toyota, I get a Toyota branded radio. I don't have a check box for every manufacturer of radio on the planet, let alone having all of them in the trunk and I can decide what one I am going to use.[/citation]Invalid comparison, Toyota isn't a monopoly. They are now the biggest, but they have less that 50% market share and less than 2x the market share of their nearest competitor in every market I know about. Also, you can remove the radio, and may even be able to buy a Toyota without a radio. More importantly, Toyota's radios work with every radio station in the country in which the car is sold.

If Toyota were a near monopoly, and they were installing radios that were not compatible with every radio station, and you couldn't remove the radio without causing the car to stop working, then your analogy would start to get close.

 

[geoffs]

[citation][nom]scuba dave[/nom]No. It doesn't solve the problem that Microsoft is now, and still will be effectively the largest government authorized monopoly.[/citation]That should be "government mandated" as many government agencies have sites that require IE or Windows, or require MS Word or MS Excel.

 

[kentlowt]

No. It doesn't solve the problem that Microsoft is now, and still will be effectively the largest government authorized monopoly.
[citation][nom]geoffs[/nom]That should be "government mandated" as many government agencies have sites that require IE or Windows, or require MS Word or MS Excel.[/citation]
There is no such thing as a government authorized monopoly unless we are talking about the government. Monopolies are merely permitted.

 

[abnderby]

It is rather ignorant for the EU and the DOJ to come at MSFT like this. Remember back when MSillegally put IE on windows. And the wiff about windows media player.

Same old song and dance from the competition. I agree with most of the comments here. Hey Google, Opera, Mozilla go make your own OS then be prepared that you will get hassled by everyone and their brother why you put a calculator in the OS.


It is a crying shame that a company has to put up with all of these very ignorant lawsuits. Not that I stand behind MS many business practises. But is that not the fact behind any business. To become the best and biggest and hopefully defacto!

Well cudos to MS for all that they have done. If it were not for their agressive business practises we would not have computers the way we have them today.

Over all there is not a better OS or Office suite than MS. No I am not a MS fanboy but out of the box MSdoes have the best offering, the most hardware and software support. They do fix things even though not always as fast as we would like them to.

Bit the EU and DOJ grow up and let us fight some real corruption in our political ranks and other big corporate blunders. AIG, GM and other tyrant corps. Go after big fraud cases and the mafia, and drug cartels. Stop wasting money on which browser and media player should be installed.

That is a choice for the computer user to decide not the government. Oh yeah since when is IE the update downloader (on that 8 year old OS)? I have not used IE to download updates since I have been on vista and win 7.

And het mozilla, your browser is for free, you want respect than go after all OS makers and get them all to give a choice. I don't think apple would like it but fair is fair.

Personally I use IE even though it is slower at times, IMO it is the cleaner and more professional loking and feeling of all of the browsers. And i virtually have no compatability issues with any site I visist. Cannot say that of the other browsers.

Oh but wait that is the next set of law suits, now web sites will be sued for not coding to be compatible with mozilla.

ha ha lol yes someone please give these poor ceo's their ba ba

 

[crymsonpheonix]

If buy a Mac or reinstall OSX I expect safari to be there. I hate it, will not use it, but it will be there. If I install and *nix system with KDE, I know konquerer will be there, same story. If I install one with gnome, I'll get gnome's browser (can't remember what it's called, don't like it either). If I bought a computer with ChromeOS, I expect it will have Chrome on it. So when I install Windows next, I'll expect to find IE there. I'll use it to get firefox or chrome, but I'm not going to complain about it. I don't sue people when I cannot log into their websites from my *nix system (though, on second thought, maybe I should. then I could drop out of college and live a nice life on the beach somewhere.)

 

[geoffs]

[citation][nom]kentlowt[/nom]There is no such thing as a government authorized monopoly unless we are talking about the government. Monopolies are merely permitted.[/citation]That's incorrect. Most utilities are government authorized, and in many cases, mandated monopolies. We're finally moving away from that in telephones and electricity, but we're still there with cable TV and natural gas.

When government agencies mandate using file formats, communication protocols, or software that is proprietary to one company, that is defacto a government mandated monopoly.

 

[martin0642]

I really hate this whole stupid argument. No one whines about paint, calculator, character map, defrag, or any of the other non memory-driver-kernel subsystems included in Windows, why are they so bent of the ability to see the Internet? So how do they expect users to get online in the first place to get a different browser? Why are they allowed to include a TCP/IP stack?

What about the developers of IP stack software that are being bullied by this inclusion? I remember when I had to use 3rd party software to get Windows 3.11 online, what happened to them?

Why are they allowed to include a file manager to let me see my C: drive?

If someone is using pricing and cash to push people out of business, fine, sue them. But don't tell me I can't add features to my product as technology develops to keep up with all of the alternatives. I view the ability of explorer to read HTML as no different than its ability to read the MFT.

I have Chrome and FF and use them both, but this stupid claim needs to die, or someone might decide that car manufacturers who include a GPS as in in dash option are pushing dash-mounted units out of business.

This is capitalism. Just like 99% of all organisms that once lived on earth are now dead, software does not have a "right" to restrict what other people bundle unless it breaks very specific boundaries, which they have done in the past, and Intel did the same, and was punished for, by forcing payments of offering unfair pricing schemes.

What people choose - or are to ignorant to choose - is their business. Nero 6 burned CDs just fine, and since then had just become bloat ware and media players and label makers and no ones whining about that either. It's legal for people to be to ignorant to make better decisions, or everyone would have life insurance, savings accounts, educations, and all the best of everything, and that is not the planet we live on.