Build Advice New build questions ?

[DSzymborski]

The Amiga 500 was a 10W PC. A few more if you had a hard drive. Of *course* you didn't need a bunch of fans. Smartphones can get damn hot when they're around 20W.

Energy = heat. The amount of heat that needs to be removed from a PC is always related to the energy used by the PC. If you want a PC with the cooling needs of an Amiga 500, you have to build a PC with the power consumption of an Amiga 500.

 

[35below0]

if fans hardly move any air, what use is to use case fans at all?

I'm sure they could move more. When powering on and restarting, the fans do spin up a little bit. I can hear them but they're still quiet.

Temperatures are low, and that is why fans are quiet. Without fans, temperatures would raise and fans would be needed.
But you know all this. I'm just saying that using no fans at all is not a good idea, and that 4-5 spinning fans can maintain good airflow so as not to have to spin at high rpm.

1 case fan is the bare minimum. 1 exhaust and 1 intake is more balanced maybe but 1 fan can move air inside the case, which is what you'd want.

 

[Richard1234]

They made noise when you whacked them after enough guru meditations. To say nothing of the floppy drive noise. Constant. Floppy Noise.

Spoiler: Monkey Island theme played on 8 floppy drives

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM4-de57VZ0

Spoiler: Monkey Island theme played on 8 floppy drives

that video is fraudulent, fraud by false misrepresentation!

the Amiga floppy drive ALWAYS makes the same sound, similar to a pig grunting, the above video is BLATANTLY SAMPLED because it is replayed at different frequencies!

they have just overlaid a sampling video over some drives probably randomly shunting back and forth.

also its completely irrelevant as you'd usually load a game from 1 floppy drive, and the Amiga I think just daisychained up to 3 further floppy drives, so it would never have 6.

most software would work from just 1 floppy as most users would only have 1 floppy drive, so they work to what the majority has.

Also that video shows the cases of the drives removed, which would make them noiser.

in any case its a fake video, as the sounds are sampled!

its an example of disinformation, deliberately false information to misguide people either to something the author likes or away from something the author doesnt like.

You can, since you have the motherboard manual.
I can also take a wild stab in the dark and say yes, it will.

Aeacus reply shows you are completely wrong!

also part of the point of a GPU is to take the load off the CPU, where a CPU potentially only needs to send metalevel info,

eg to draw a silver sphere, a CPU potentially just needs to send the following data to the GPU:

radius, (x,y,z) of centre, inbuilt texture code of surface,

which is maybe 8 + 3 x 8 + 4 = 36 bytes!

the GPU itself then can expand that to the much larger data of a sphere, and have its own internal buses which connect also to the output video ports, eg HDMI or DP, etc. such buses would be completely beyond the CPU and its buses.

a CPU might also load the GPU with some initial imagery data, but once all set up, the CPU can just send metalevel data,

CPU ---- metalevel ---> GPU ----- heavier data ---> monitor

you cant just add up bandwidths, it depends on the architecture, and where the bandwidth happens.

Now if the CPU does all the graphics, then that bandwidth could be a problem.

Also, a lot of the CPU's computations will be in its caches, which wont affect the bandwidth.
my CPU has 128MB L3 cache. an 24 bit colour HD screen is 1080 x 1920 x 4 = 8294400 bytes, if you use 4 bytes per pixel which is the most efficient way to program it. at 30 frames per second, that would be some 240MB per second, basically you only need data to an HD monitor at that speed to do the graphics.

The drive motor moved once every second or so unless a diskette was in the drive. With a floppy in the drive, it would either noisily read from it, or sit in complete silence once it had nothing to read.
So there was a way to shut up the floppy drive, yes but left to it's own devices it would never shut up.

the drive certainly clicked every few seconds in order to detect if a disk was inserted, but EVERYBODY kept a disk permanently in the drive, so its not a problem!

you booted from a floppy so by default there was a disk in the floppy drive.

anyway, its a very easy fix which everyone did which was to keep a floppy permanently in the drive.

the real noise problem is from magnetic hard drives, as these permanently rotate, other than hibernation. but hibernation is unsatisfactory as there is a delay before they wake up.

the continual rotation of fans is also a problem.

floppy and optical drives are more efficient in that they only rotate when data is accessed, rather than blindly rotating.

this is where SSDs are a much better idea than magnetic hard drives.

with my Amiga 1200, I eventually got hard drives, but in fact I did my main work without hard drives attached, on double density floppies, and then only when enough work accumulated would shunt the data to the hard drives, as I couldnt work to the noise of the hard drives.

I know Amigas. The 1200 was a great machine. But let's not gloss over details.

I am not glossing over any details! it is you who is exaggerating and giving URLs to fraudulent disinformation videos.

I cant believe you got duped by sampling!

 

[Richard1234]

I dont seem able to quote quotes, so am using ordinary cut and paste:

original Question: that PCI_E3 5.0 x 4, is that double the speed of PCI-e 4.0 x 4 = M2_4?

Yes.

original Question: I think you said in the other topic that each new PCI-e version is double the earlier version? wouldnt that PCI_E3 then be 15.75 GB/s?

Yes.

original question: can this be converted to a 3rd 15.75 GB/s M.2? maybe in the future?

Yes.


Yes. Though, not many currently around. Did find one from MSI,
specs: https://www.msi.com/PC-Component/USB4-PD100W-EXPANSION-CARD

ok, I found that one was already in my bookmarks, so you must have linked to it in the earlier topic!

although scrutinising it, that is PCIe 4.0 x4, whereas the mobo is PCIe 5.0 x 4, so potentially something even faster could be done, or more USB4 sockets?

anyway your above replies does show it is the best possible circumstance!


original question: but I suppose something elsewhere on the bus could utilise the wasted bandwidth?

As far as i know - No.

E.g M2_3 - PCI-E 4.0 x4 = 7,87 GB/s full bandwidth is allocated to the slot, regardless if there is a drive in it or not.
So, even when you have a drive in it that uses most of the bandwidth, but leaves something unallocated, the unallocated bandwidth remains as unused overhead (aka wasted bandwidth).

although it wastes bandwidth, it does have a big advantage which is that of a guarantee, namely a guaranteed bandwidth, this is also very important.

eg say you are writing to a BD-R, you need to guarantee the bandwidth, otherwise it wont write correctly, and as it is write-once, you dont have a second chance and you'd have to junk the disk, and start again.

now in the modern era, it is possible a drive might have its own caches, but a guarantee does mean you could say generate a BD-R at max speed.

also say you have an impressive graphics demo, you dont want it to slow down because there is a virus scan in the background.

the problem of "swimming through treacle", where some hardware suddenly slows down because some other hardware is seizing bandwidth.

once you have guarantees, you can guarantee further stuff based on the dependent guarantees, where you build up a hierarchy of guarantees.


one problem with Ethernet, is it doesnt have a guarantee, you could get by coincidence "collisions" going on forever,
this is where token ring is better, because for a fixed network you could rig it to guarantee data flows.

the more hardware you attach to the token ring, the slower it will become, but with Ethernet, if you attach too much stuff, it can freeze up badly, as collisions start to become continual.

efficiency isnt always the best thing, its often best to sacrifice some efficiency for other benefits, eg simplicity.

eg with programming, if a program is too efficient it can become unreadable, because it is trying to do 10 things at once via some acrobatics. it is better to have more manageable programs than to have max speed and nightmarish source code.

a lot of problems in fact are caused by an over obsession with efficiency. good design is always a balancing act, where efficiency is just one consideration. eg a sports car optimises speed but isnt much use for transporting stuff! its an imbalanced design.

and as per the earlier discussion, future compatibility requires some inefficiency eg unused pins. eg I think with USB3 A, they ran out of pins!

Not necessarily.

In backup situation to external drive, entire backup takes as long as how fast is the slowest component in the chain.
E.g: 990 Pro - USB 3.0 - 2.5" SATA SSD.
Speeds: 36 Gbps - 5 Gbps - 6 Gbps.

yeh, I forgot about the bottleneck aspect of the bus!

so the USB3.0 puts a limit on many things, I'll probably use USB3 for many things, as its easier to disconnect stuff.
SATA also has a similar limit at 6Gbps,

maybe eventually we will have USB4 drives, where I could use a USB4 adaptor and USB4 hub with individual power switches, I'd need some USB4 extenders also, I bought a few USB4 extenders for the laptop and new PC's video ports!

as mentioned earlier, efficiency and speed arent everything, in this case with USB3 its not as fast, but it is much more reconnectable than the M.2 drive. eg I might reconnect a drive from my desktop to my laptop, and I refuse to use the cloud.

where a lot of the data doesnt need speed.

In this case, the slowest component is USB 3.0. With this, it doesn't matter how fast the source drive is, be it PCI-E 4.0 x4 or 5.0 x4, since you'll still be limited by USB 3.0 5 Gbps speeds. And USB 3.0 is always a bit slower than SATA3.


Western Digital Caviar Blue HDD, will NEVER do 6 Gbps. For SATA 3, 6 Gbps = 600 MB/s, and is the maximum bandwidth of SATA3. Drive itself is FAR slower.

I used to have WD Blue 1TB [WD10EZEX] HDDs, and now looking up my old benchmark results, it did: read 112 MB/s and write 102 MB/s. So, essentially 1/6 of what SATA3 is capable of.

the drive is very misleading by saying SATA3 6Gbps, what they mean is the interface is 6Gbps, the drive is less than 1Gbps, may as well use SATA 1!

the Gbps of SATA and USB2 and USB3 is also misleading, as most people think in terms of bytes, it makes these interfaces seem faster than they really are!

In comparison, my 2.5" SATA SSD, Samsung 870 Evo 2TB, does: read 453 MB/s, write 398 MB/s. About 4x times better than my HDD was capable of, while still leaving headroom of what SATA3 is capable of: 600 MB/s.

My current OS drive, Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB, which is PCI-E 3.0 x4 drive,

the drive goes in a PCI-E x 4 socket?

does: read 3350 MB/s, write 3375 MB/s, while the maximum bandwidth of PCI-E 3.0 x4 is 3940 MB/s. So, quite close, leaving ~600 MB/s (0,49 GB/s) as headroom.


You should be able to put the drives into "sleep" mode within Win power plan settings, just like you can do with HDDs. Though, i haven't personally tested it.

But you can not completely power them off when system is on and you're booted into OS.

the problem is I want total power off,

Even if there is one, it's a bad idea. You have no way of knowing if the system accesses the drive and if you kill the power via manual switch, you can end up with data corruption or even drive failure.

ah yes, but I was thinking of powering off the drive, before booting the system!

I wouldnt try to power off a SATA drive once the PC is running!

as a general rule, I only disconnect or pull out a drive on Windows if there is an eject command for the drive, and after using that command.

some drives dont have an eject command, so I will power down the PC, and only then disconnect.

Hence why there is "Shut Down" command with PCs, rather than you just flipping the power switch when you're done with PC.

Spoiler: Off-topic reply

With home appliances, i prefer to buy industrial/restaurant grade hardware, rather than consumer grade, since those are built far better and are far more reliable.

Spoiler: Off-topic reply

ok, this is taking things to the next level!

E.g the microwave oven i have, which also has conventional (air) cooking and also grill functions, has lasted me for ~9 years now, while being powered on at all times. Then again, i bought high-end, restaurant grade microwave oven, from well respected German company in the field: ProfiCook.

I have this exact microwave,
amazon.de: https://www.amazon.de/-/en/ProfiCook-PC-MWG-1045-Stainless-Convection/dp/B00FYXCZ1U

With my microwave, i can also adjust it's power level by 10% at a time, among other features it has.

I have bookmarked that, it in fact looks very similar to the Kenwood, and similar price. the Kenwood was £199 plus I think 5 years of protection at £12 per year.

the fact it is restaurant grade means it will be far more durable as it is designed to be in use throughout a day for the guarantee, wheres the home use equipment is designed to be in use much less. eg a home use washing machine, is maybe in use twice on 2 days a week, something like that.

Yes, but wi-fi cards are usually in 2230 or 2242 in size.

aha, so that 22110 idea is no good!

The system (MoBo) doesn't know the RPM range of your fans, so, it only can show you voltage. And you have to calculate the RPM at any given voltage by yourself. Or set the voltage and look what RPM feedback fan gives to the MoBo.

this could be a bit of work to do, I'd have to experiment where I set things where it just starts up, and then note the settings!

Kaput? Possibly.

Worst that can happen: CPU overheats, thermal throttles (you'll loose CPU compute power) and when temps rise even higher, CPU WILL kill the power to the PC. Whereby whatever you were doing, is lost. And that can easily lead to data corruption. Maybe even storage drive failure.

you are talking here of when you have CPU and PSU cooling, but no other cooling?

So, better to use case fans as well.


None of the smart phones are comparable to the compute power of the desktop PC.

yes, but they have more compute power than early era desktops, probably more compute power than our university IBM mainframe!

a lot of smartphones use ARM, because it is far more efficient than x86. x86 is said to be highly inefficient.

its not just the compute power, its also the design.

now my new HP laptop from a year ago is quiet, it does make a sound sometimes, so probably does have a fan.

Hence why they don't need active cooling. IF the smart phone would have the same level of compute power as the desktop PC, it will be so hot that you can't even hold it in hand, let alone use it.

I dont know if that is true, it does depend on the design. eg x86 has a lot of structure that nobody uses, but it all has to be supplied power. its ages since I looked at this, but I think x86 has 2 different floating point systems! that is duplication of effort. and I was told in the 2006 era that nobody uses the floating point hardware as it can be done faster in software!

with ARM, they aggressively removed anything which wasnt necessary, with the original ARM, they even removed the multiply instruction as that could be done in software. because with RISC, they want all instructions broken into phases, eg 5 phases, where each phase takes the same time. I may misremember, but typical phases are something like:

1. instruction fetch
2. instruction decode
3. operand fetch
4. arithmetic + logic
5. operand store

where they get a 5x speed up, by doing instruction1.phase5 + instruction2.phase4 + instruction3.phase3+instruction4.phase2 + instruction5.phase1 IN PARALLEL, thereby 5x the speed.

the trickiest instructions for (4) are multiply and divide, so if you junk those, phase 4 can be made much faster.

instruction caches speed up (1), and data caches speed up (3) and (5).

net effect is ARM is used in smartphones whereas x86 isnt!

The 2010 PC BIOS shows only one option of Hard Disk perhaps because you only have one HDD(SSD) connected to it?

I dont think so, I have 3 SSDs attached, and it just shows "Hard Disk" and "USB Hard Disk", so if you select "Hard Disk", it just scans the IDE or SATA hard disks in some pre-determined order, and scans the top partitions probably left to right looking for the first bootable one and then uses that.

in any case, I have both XP and Windows 10 from the main drive, and it will always boot from Windows 10, there isnt an option to select the boot partition. to boot from XP, I have to boot to Windows 10, then select "Earlier version of windows":

http://www.directemails.info/tom/XP_win10.jpg

and then it reboots to XP.

Since BIOS doesn't show you those devices that can be potentially connected to, and booted off from. Instead, it shows you the currently connected devices.

Your new UEFI will identify all drives by name and also gives you option among those.

Spoiler: E.g pics of my UEFI and boot devices

In boot order, i have plethora of devices. This list is to rearrange the boot order.

Now, when i select one of them, e.g "Hard Disk", my UEFI displays and identifies all drives that i have connected to my PC, whereby i can select which drive to boot off from.
Bootable drives in my system are 970 Evo Plus and 960 Evo. Other two are data drives without OS.

original question: can someone confirm or deny whether the M.2 on the M2_1 slot will seize bandwidth from the GPU for this specific mobo?

No.

which then refutes 35Below0's guess!

No.


No.

CPU and MoBo are designed to match each other, where there are no PCI-E 4.0/5.0 lane sharing between PCI-E and M.2 slots. It's one of the pros of high-end MoBo you have. Lesser (cheaper) MoBos can have the lane sharing issue but for the most part, GPU and one M.2 drive can live freely in the system, without conflicting each other bandwidth wise.

this is good in that the GPU can go at full speed, and the M.2 can go at full speed.

its nice when different sockets can go at full speed,

I think once you use a hub, then they will either compete, or all go slower as the hub is presumably a bottleneck for all attached devices.

 

[Richard1234]

I'm sure they could move more. When powering on and restarting, the fans do spin up a little bit. I can hear them but they're still quiet.

beware of saying "but they are still quiet", because if you have fans on for too long, you could become deaf to that frequency, where the fans seem silent!

now I always work in total silence, so I will hear fans, and the Noctuas so far are too loud for me to work in the same room.

if I kept working with them, its possible I might become deaf to their noise, but I dont want to get silence via deafness!

but the CPU cooler and PSU fans are quiet enough.

Temperatures are low,

presumably -35°C ?

 

[Richard1234]

The Amiga 500 was a 10W PC. A few more if you had a hard drive. Of *course* you didn't need a bunch of fans. Smartphones can get damn hot when they're around 20W.

Energy = heat.

Spoiler: expand for off topic comments on heat and noise

I disagree!

heat is energy, but energy isnt heat!

heat is just one form of energy, and in fact here is inefficiency!

energy = heat, noise, kinetic energy eg of electrons and convection, electromagnetic radiation, chemical energy eg a battery, potential energy eg gravitational, latent energy eg converting boiling water to steam where no change in temperature, ...

the heat and noise are completely inefficiency!
a classic example of this is the old Edison light bulbs, where a 100Watt would get seriously hot,

but today I use led light bulbs, which produce identical light to an Edison 100Watt, but are something like 14Watts, I dont have a box to hand.

its because the led bulb is vastly more efficient, where more of the energy is to light, less to heat.

I bought an own brand sander once, heavy item, high wattage, really noisy spewing out sawdust.

then I got a Bosch sander, much lighter, much lower wattage, much quieter, had a dust collector, much better.

all the heat of your PC and noise from your fans and magnetic drives is INEFFICIENCY, the machine isnt meant to produce heat and noise! using fans is trying to fix the symptoms, rather than curing the problem.

SSDs fix the noise problem of magnetic hard drives, as no moving parts. noise is from moving parts, mainly motors.

with noise inefficiency you see this with electric cars, vastly quieter, in fact too quiet.

and at the other end of the noise efficiency spectrum, motorbikes which are so noisy you can hear them from far away!

cars thus are much more powerful than motorbikes yet far quieter, efficiency!


ARM chips are much more efficient than x86, this is why ARM is used in smartphones.

the real problem we are talking about is fan noise, rather than heat per se. the CPU fan and PSU fan are much quieter, because they are focussed on hot zones, the case fans are inefficient as they are cooling the entire volume, when in fact its only some specific troublespots that need cooling.

more localised fans is probably a better MO for fans, like with the CPU and PSU fans,

the case fans are wafting a lot of irrelevant air through the case, just to indirectly cool some hot spots.

the real problem isnt heat, but is overheating, and then the noise of fan motors. maybe lots of smaller fans may be better, as each can go at a slower speed?

the move from Cathode Ray Tubes to TFTs and Leds etc are an example of a big increase in efficiency on the monitor side.


with magnetic drives, having more disks at a slower speed might also be less noisy?

the real reason things are hot and noisy is they havent worked on the problem!

The amount of heat that needs to be removed from a PC is always related to the energy used by the PC.

they are correlated, but there is the question of efficiency also.

eg if you used fibre optics rather than electricity, it would be much less heat. Aeacus was saying about fibre optic video cables which can be kilometres long, because much more efficient.

also if the area of a chip is made bigger, the heat can dissipate better where the temperatures wont get so hot. the bigger problem isnt heat but is temperature,

same heat energy from a smaller zone will generally be a higher temperature.

If you want a PC with the cooling needs of an Amiga 500, you have to build a PC with the power consumption of an Amiga 500.

debatable, depends on the engineering. eg if you spread the same power over a bigger area, that could need less cooling yet the same power.

eg say you got 10 Amiga 500's, that is 10x the power, and 10x the computing power, yet no cooling needed. its because they are spread out over space.

 

[USAFRet]

also if the area of a chip is made bigger, the heat can dissipate better where the temperatures wont get so hot. the bigger problem isnt heat but is temperature,

Due to literal physical distance, a "larger chip" would likely be slower. It would take longer for physical items in the chip to talk to each other.

eg say you got 10 Amiga 500's, that is 10x the power, and 10x the computing power, yet no cooling needed. its because they are spread out over space.

No, because you can't combine those 10x Amigas to do one task. There is/was no software to do that.

 

[Mikeytwoblues]

Summoned again and now i'm here.


Initial step: You need holy bible of PCs (MoBo manual).
While there is quick installation guide included with MoBo, i suggest you download the full (multi-language) manual from here,
link: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#manual

Since i'll be referring to the manual quite a bit.

So, once you have the manual, read it. Fully.
Once you've done reading it, read it again.

MoBo manual is the single most important piece of documentation about any PC. Hence why i like to refer to it as: "holy bible of PCs".

Assembly​

Before you install the MoBo inside the PC case, breadboarding is needed to do. While not required per se, this step will confirm if CPU-MoBo-RAM combo works. Since if neither of the three won't, it's far easier to disassemble them all; compared to when you've already installed the MoBo into the PC case and done the full cable management as well.

Also, before handling the components of a PC, make sure you're grounded. E.g touch any metal pipe that you know goes to the ground (central heating, water pipe etc). Also, avoid standing on carpet, especially when wearing socks.

Oh, as of where to assemble the PC, good sturdy table would do, e.g dining table.

1. Breadboarding​

1.1. Unbox the MoBo and place it on any cardboard box. MoBo retail box does fine.

1.2. Unbox the RAM, open up 2nd and 4th slot clips and install the RAM. MoBo manual, page 8, shows how to do it. And page 30 has further info on about correct slots when you have 2 DIMMs (which you do).

1.3 Unbox the CPU and install it on the MoBo. MoBo manual, page 6, step 1, 2 and 3 show how to do it. And further reading from page 29.
Note: While MoBo manual shows installing CPU and CPU cooler before installing the RAM, but in your case, due to your Be Quiet! CPU cooler, it is advised to install RAM 1st, since CPU cooler will overhang/cover RAM slots, making RAM installation far harder. Hence why install RAM before CPU and CPU cooler.

1.4 Unbox CPU cooler and follow the instructions on CPU cooler manual on how to install it.
If no paper manual isn't included with CPU cooler (it should though), you can download it from here,
link: https://www.bequiet.com/en/cpucooler/4466

Scroll down to "Characteristics" part and select "Downloads" tab.

With RAM installed, CPU installed, CPU cooler installed, "PC" is in operational state. Still, it needs a bit more to get it working.

1.5 Locate the USB type-C to HDMI cable and plug the USB type-C to the back of the MoBo, into correct USB slot. Namely that USB port that is marked "Item 10" in MoBo manual. Refer to page 23 and 24 to locate it. HDMI part of it goes to the monitor.

1.6 Connect KB and mice to MoBo USB slots at the back of the MoBo. Doesn't matter much which ports you use.

1.7 Unbox PSU and locate 24-pin ATX and two 4/8-pin EPS cables. Put the PSU near/next to MoBo, PSU fan facing upwards. Connect 24-pin and two 4/8-pin cables. I prefer to connect those to the PSU 1st and then connect to MoBo. But doing it vice-versa won't hurt either.
Make sure PSU switch is at the "Off" position. Connect the power cable from PSU to the mains.

End result should look similar to this:
(This is my Skylake build breadboarded, when i bought the initial components.)

Now, "PC" doesn't have GPU or SSD for OS, but it doesn't need them. Since the idea is to make sure CPU-MoBo-RAM work and you can boot into UEFI (BIOS).

2. 1st power-on​

When you're ready to power on the build;

2.1. Flip the switch at the back of the PSU.

2.2. Press the "Power" button on MoBo itself to power on the "PC". MoBo manual, page 55, shows where this button is located.

With this, you should be seeing some life from your assembled components, like CPU fan starting to spin, RAM LEDs light up, other lights lit up on MoBo.

If you don't see any image on monitor, despite MoBo being powered on, look what code the DEBUG LED is showing. To locate the DEBUG LED, look MoBo manual page 61.
Pages 61 to 65 has a chart of all the DEBUG LED values and what they mean.

Now, it may get seemingly stuck on either 15, 16, 17, 18 or 2E, but wait since this is memory training and takes a bit of time. Shouldn't take more than 5 mins though. MoBo can do the memory training twice, but once POST is complete, PC should boot directly to UEFI (BIOS).

2.3. Once you see UEFI on your monitor, GREAT, the most nerve-wrecking part is over and you've confirmed that CPU-MoBo-RAM work. You can then look around in UEFI if you like but otherwise, exit UEFI. Since there is no OS, PC restarts and does boot back to UEFI.

2.4. To power off the PC, while in UEFI, either press the power button on MoBo, or flip the switch at the back of the PSU. (I prefer flipping the switch.)

For redundancy, you can turn the breadboarded setup back on again, to make sure all works. Just flip the PSU switch back to "On" position and power on the build via Power button on MoBo. If all is well, you'll end up back in UEFI. With this confirmed 2nd time, power off the build again, for further assembly.

Regarding further assembly, you can go ahead and install the MoBo into the PC case if you like, but i personally prefer to install OS 1st, since when something should happen with hardware, it's easier to disassemble it.
I can write the follow-up steps too, if you like, but this (breadboarding), is the most crucial part of building any PC.

I kept a grounding wrist strap on my hand each and every time I stuck my former USAF mitt into the tower!

 

[Aeacus]

although scrutinising it, that is PCIe 4.0 x4, whereas the mobo is PCIe 5.0 x 4, so potentially something even faster could be done, or more USB4 sockets?

To fully utilize the PCI-E 5.0 x4 speeds, that add-on card should have double the output ports it currently has.

the drive is very misleading by saying SATA3 6Gbps, what they mean is the interface is 6Gbps, the drive is less than 1Gbps, may as well use SATA 1!

Yeah, with HDDs, no point using SATA3. SATA1 which does 150 MB/s will suffice. But no modern MoBo has SATA1 on them. They all have SATA3.

So, in that sense, SATA versions didn't do any good for HDDs, but did help along SSDs.

the Gbps of SATA and USB2 and USB3 is also misleading, as most people think in terms of bytes, it makes these interfaces seem faster than they really are!

Yes. Need to look closely if it is written in Bytes or Bits.

the drive goes in a PCI-E x 4 socket?

Yes.

All desktop MoBo M.2 slots are PCI-E with 4 lanes. So: PCI-E x4.

Though, some small/obscure MoBo may have M.2 slot limited to 2 or 1 lane as well. E.g all-in-one PC (where PC is built into a monitor) can have limitations on M.2 slot.

the problem is I want total power off,

What you want and what are you able to get - are two different things.

Only way to get total power off for M.2 drive is to use external drive, which communicates over USB protocol. This way, when you're done with the drive, you can let PC to know that you're about to disconnect the drive (just like you do with USB thumb drive). Then PC knows to wrap up and stop communicating with the drive, where it is safe to remove the drive from system. And once you unplug the drive, you can power it off.

But the fact that M.2 drive has to communicate over USB protocol, means that it will be FAR slower than what the drive itself is capable of operating.
Like i said, your 990 Pro read speeds are up to 7,27 GB/s. There is no USB port in your PC that can reach those speeds. Only JUSB2 type-C comes closest, at 2,5 GB/s.

PCI-E 4.0 x4 = 7,87 GB/s
Samsung 990 Pro = 7,27 GB/s read, 6,73 GB/s write
JUSB2 type-C = 2,5 GB/s
JUSB1 (and all other USB type-C ports) = 1,25 GB/s

So, yes, you can have total power off of M.2 drive, but you'll loose 2/3 of bandwidth what the drive is capable of when using JUSB2 (or even more when using other USB ports).
Your call.

you are talking here of when you have CPU and PSU cooling, but no other cooling?

Yes.

The initial build i configured for you, did not take account fanless idea, instead, build (including PC case) was composed with the active cooling idea.

Now, CPU cooler alone, should suffice to cool the CPU, but if you also include GPU, MoBo and RAM, which are other heat sources, then using case fans to move entire volume of air inside the PC case, is far better idea than running without case fans. After all, you've already bought high-end Noctua fans. Why not use them?

I think once you use a hub, then they will either compete, or all go slower as the hub is presumably a bottleneck for all attached devices.

Yes.

Since when you use a hub, that uses e.g: 1x input port but 4x output ports, then each output port is capable of 25% of total bandwidth, when all 4x ports are in use at the same time.

 

[Richard1234]

decided last night to backup the two 2010 500G disks via Linux Mint, to a 2T WD Blue. first problem is couldnt boot to Linux Mint DVD via the USB bluray writer, so had to reconnect the SATA one. I had thought that was Panasonic, and couldnt find the product on my browser bookmarks, and UEFI on the new PC only gives limited info. On removing it, found in fact it was Pioneer! an example of misremembering, where I misremembered Pioneer as Panasonic! its a BDR-212DBK, really great. checking on amazon, I found an external Pioneer drive which does quad layer blurays which will store 128Gig per disk!

this is digressing from the original topic, but I dont know if anyone knows any good internal bluray writer drives which writes Quad layer disks?

anyway, with the SATA optical drive, I could boot Linux Mint. it got stuck for ages, where it said some problem with the disks, then I remembered that with Ubuntu, it only works properly if I boot to XP first. if I boot to Win 10, then Ubuntu, I get problems. but if I boot XP, do nothing, boot down, then boot Ubuntu, then no problem. So I booted XP, did nothing, booted down, and now booted to Linux Mint properly, took ages.

but I couldnt mount the WD Blue on Mint. switched off the USB3 hub for that 1 drive, tried again, appeared again, couldnt mount. eventually connected it to the USB2 hub, and now could mount. set the sector backups, with this progressing. after breakfast today, went to check, and it had frozen up, looks like after 10 hours. I think the USB2 controller or something is kaput where it works but not for too many hours. so will have to backup those drives from the new machine. cannot write to the WD Blue if its via the USB3 hub.

I'll reply to all the posts in this one message, before the replies, the mobo manual page 31 says:

"if you install a large and heavy graphics card, you need to use a too such as MSI Graphics Card Bolster to support its weight to prevent deformation of the slot"

is the Geforce RTX 4060 "large and heavy"?
if I need the MSI Graphics Card Bolster, is that supplied with the graphics card, or will I need to purchase that?
if to purchase, any purchase links?

I am going to install the PC without graphics card initiall, in order to experience and assess that circumstance, I generally try to gradually assess things, although sometimes I get impatient. its the saying "fools rush in where angels fear to tread".

Due to literal physical distance, a "larger chip" would likely be slower. It would take longer for physical items in the chip to talk to each other.

Spoiler: expand for very off topic comments

its difficult for us here to say either way!

without bringing in Intel or AMD engineers, I dont know if we can say what the limiting factors are.

and those engineers will be bound by NDAs, and it may even depend on which CPU or CPU series.

which must be why you say "likely",

my guess is they are obsessed with miniaturisation, and computational power, and arent thinking about heat, and then the domino effect of fan noise. they want to fit as much as possible in as little space as possible, because they cant think of anything else to aim for! the engineers are "institutionalised", where they get caught up in a self referential institution, which is a self reinforcing echo chamber. users then get caught up in the self referential system, for them the way things are is the way things have to be, until someone outside the institution does things a better way.

when I did maths, we had this problem where everyone gets trapped in a self reinforcing establishment. institutions always get institutionalised, where the institution overshadows the people. you end up with a big building, filled with corridors and offices. with committees, administrative people, etc.

you get all kinds of self referential institutions, eg political structures, eg a parliament, or a specific party, where as a career your only option is to do what everyone else is doing! when in fact its often not particularly good. eg the EU parliament or the british parliament, or the US congress.

with sport you get say the World Cup, UEFA, etc, and with athletics the Olympic Committee, the PGA for golf, etc.

maybe they could fit it all in a larger space at the same speed. same way I want an EATX, because I want lots of sockets, other people want their PC to be as small as possible, but their small PC isnt any faster than my larger format one.

as size gets bigger and bigger, at some point it would become the limiting factor.

electricity flows near the speed of light, light is approx 3 x 10^8 metres/second.

according to Google, electricity flows at 90% the speed of light, 2.7 x 10^8 m/s

so its not clear to what extent it is the limiting factor,

my new CPU is 4.2 Ghz default frequency, 4.2 x 10^9 cycles/ second.

thus 1 clock cycle is 1/(4.2 x 10^9) seconds. in 1 clock cycle, electricity will go 2.7 x 10^8 x 1/(4.2 x 10^9) m = 0.0643m = 6.43 cm.

BUT with the CPU functioning, each electron doesnt just travel 6.43cm, a lot of the electrons might flow a much shorter distance. I think the clock timing is more about the time needed for voltages to stabilise, rather than distances to travel.

RISC can split up an instruction into maybe 5 phases each of 1 clock cycle, thus an electron can travel 6.43cm per phase, and thus 32.15cm per instruction.


if you put heat and power usage as a constraint, you can start to arrange things more spaced out and mitigate by some other ideas.

also distance isnt the only way to reduce power, the wiring: materials and shape, and also the arrangement of circuit modules.
voltage also, it just seems unlikely that the optimal voltage will be a round number like 12V or 3.3V etc! its more likely to be an irregular number like 1.387746V or 5.61743808V.

ALSO these AMD and Intel CPUs have a RISC core, where x86 is emulated above the core in the firmware, which will add latency.

they literally have an emulator app within the CPU, and that emulator needs memory, it is a bit insane.

they should just release the RISC core, and move the emulator to a proper app above the CPU!


and x86 is loaded with a load of junk that nobody uses, eg I think it has 2 different floating point systems (I'd have to check the manuals to say for sure, but my memory is there are at least 2 alternative floating point systesm), and I was told noone uses those as its faster to do floating point in software, and in any case floating point hardware itself does the floating points in software within the firmware. eg I am sure a scientific calculator has some kind of fixed computer within it. eg a calculator must do squareroots by the Newton Raphson algorithm, where approximation[n+1] = 1/2( number/approximation[n] + approximation[n]).

eg for squareroot(2), successive approximations via a calculator with 1=, then 1/2x(2/ANS + ANS), then repeatedly pressing =,
1
1.5
1.416666...
1.414215686
1.414213562
1.414213562

where it calculated it in 5 steps

if you junk the junk, you could fit it in a much smaller space, and work to a bigger size. with ARM, they rigorously junked everything they could junk, they even junked the integer multiply instruction, as that one uses up too much time.

the reason ARM is a superior plan to Intel, is with ARM, the software people led the show, whereas with Intel, it is led by electrical engineers who are adept at electronics but have never met any programmers or users.

I had some suggestions for the x86 memory management hardware, and contacted AMD, and its impossible to talk to the engineers. I could only communicate with a personnel person, he said I had to tell him the idea and he would forward it, and I wasnt prepared to, as he could just steal the idea. Having programmed the AMD MMU, I could see major improvements that could be done.


the success of Intel is backwards compatibility, that they always guaranteed backwards compatibility, which locked in their huge customer base. other firms regularly outdid Intel with technology, eg ARM. And right now Nvidia is outdoing AMD and Intel with AI hardware. the success of AMD is software compatibility with Intel, where they coasted on Intels success.


the clock speed is such that there is enough time for the voltages to stabilise to new values, if the clock speed is too fast, a voltage might be near halfway between 0 and 1, where it is misread. overclocking only works because they have a safety margin in the time they allow.


you could mitigate distances with a bigger chip by stacking circuitry vertically, the current CPU I think is flat, which is spatially inefficient. I think this CPU does have some 3D aspect to its architecture, hence the 3D in the chipname. 3D cache or something.

note that the PCI sockets and memory chips are all at a distance, and are space inefficient, and eg using DIMMA2 then DIMMB2, when in fact DIMMA1 is the nearest to the CPU! also putting the PCI sockets at successively further distances from the CPU, wasting the much nearer space towards the back panel!

the shape of a tower is inefficient, a cube would be more efficient. a sphere would be the most efficient, but would be trickier to engineer.

and in any case a 3D arrangement could place stuff to the left, right, forwards, backwards, above, below, and other directions from the CPU.

ultimately x86 has a problem that it cant be used in smartphones, as too hot and uses too much power, and smartphones are where the really big money is. Bill Gates was the richest man in the world for a long era, but eventually he got overtaken by Carlos Slim who made his money from mobile phones!

so the bigger speeds are cold comfort as they cant participate in the really big money, where Apple and Samsung rake in lorryloads of money.

I just think its a false economy to miniaturise and then need some ginormous cooler! the totality of cpu and cooler is vastly bigger than a Motorola 68000!

The program code and data are in the memory chips which are set at a distance, although modern CPUs get a big speed boost from caches. every instruction the CPU executes has to be shunted from the memory chips, but the hardware will shunt a segment of such code which is now in the instruction caches. and the revisiting of the instruction is much faster as its now in the cache.


you can switch off caches, I havent looked at this for more than a decade, but if I remember rightly the caching control is via the MMU paging, ie can be done per page, but there are also some global cache controls which can be used to halt caching of the memory mapped hardware:

the CPU generally talks to peripheral hardware by writing to special memory addresses, which arent memory at all, but the relevant peripheral hardware intercepts those writes from the bus.

peripheral hardware generally talks to the CPU via sending an interrupt, which is a very low level wire based communication system, which forces the CPU to run some code for that hardware called an interrupt handler, where it will now read fake memory to get further info from the hardware.

anyway, probably you can switch off instruction caches, I'd have to rake through the manuals to be sure, and you can definitely switch off data caches. you might ask why I dont rake through the manuals just now: its because that will be some work, as I have forgotten which manual and where in the manual, there are a lot of manuals, and I might never complete the PC build!

for self modifying code, you MUST switch off instruction caches, in the modern era people generally dont use self modifying code, ie where a program modifies itself. But it might hypothetically be used to load and unload temporary program segments. eg the Amiga 500 did this because of limited memory, where it could load a segment of program on first reference, and if it ran out of memory, I think it could unload such a segment. I think the 68000 didnt have caches, but the 68020 had small caches.

an Amiga 500 program potentially could be larger than the available memory, where the program would be split up into segments.

in later eras,they started to get rid of the idea of multisegment code, as now enough memory to load a program fully.

Linux has the ELF format, which I think allows multi segment code. where the ELF format works for any CPU. I started writing an ELF loader program once, in order to load 68000 ELF format, but I shelved the project eventually as too many other things to do. If I rake through the project I can say for sure whether it is multi segment, but first problem is even locating the project!

I could continue that project if I chose, but I want to work on other projects!

anyway, I can probably switch off all caches, as that would test how the CPU performs via the memory modules, ie test out how the CPU performs with bigger distances, as it would have to load each instruction from the memory modules. the memory modules then become part of the CPU.

its possible there are benchmark programs which allow you to test the CPU uncached, where you force the memory modules to become "part" of the CPU.

with the Motorola 68000 series, many things didnt happen in 1 clock cycle, I dont have the handbook for the entire series to hand, but I have the handbook for the 68000, and for that, integer multiply is 70 clock cycles,

reading data from an absolute memory address to a machine register, takes 20 clock cycles, there is a bit of small print also, not worth trying to decipher that.

now with RISC, they try to make each instruction take say exactly 5 clock cycles, where the instruction is divided into phases, and each phase must complete in 1 clock cycle.

this enables them to work on 5 instructions in parallel. but the clock cycle is decided by the slowest case of all 5 phases.

this is why ARM removed integer multiply as it was very slow. basically multiply and probably divide are time bottlenecks for the maths. ban them from the hardware, and you can make the hardware much faster.

for 68000, the slowest instruction of all is signed integer divide, which is 158 clock cycles, unsigned divide is 140 cycles,
add longword is 6 clock cycles, add byte or 16 bit word is 8 clock cycles, slower than 32 bit!

wheraeas signed and unsigned multiply are the same speed at 70 clock cycles.

with these maths operations, you need to add the addressing times also, if you add something in memory, you have to add the memory access time.

anyway, conceivably rather than 1 clock cycle per phase, they might say have 5 clock cycles per phase,

there are no rules in computing other than those you set yourself, people regularly break established rules. I am describing rules particular firms set themselves for their hardware.

No, because you can't combine those 10x Amigas to do one task. There is/was no software to do that.

Spoiler: expand for very off topic comments

yes and no!

collectively they do have 10x the power, but not in a general way. you'd need software written to utilise the 10x, AND it would only be suitable for some things.

eg say you wanted to do a raytraced animation, where each frame takes 1 hour to ray trace.

you could put a file ID.txt on each Amiga 500, where it just says 0 or 1 or 2 .... or 9

then you could make the 5th Amiga 500 just raytrace frames 5, 15, 25, 35, ... of the animation,
the 7th would just raytrace, 7, 17, 27, 37, .....
etc

each computer checks the file ID.txt to see which ones it should compute.

where say it was 100 frames. then where 1 Amiga 500 would calculate that in 100 hours = 4 days 4 hours,
with the 10 Amigas it would take 10 hours. 10x speed up.

As a simple example of this concept, I have a laptop from 2023, and my PC from 2010.

and I can setup the 2010 PC to do something time consuming, and then setup the 2023 laptop to do something else time consuming at the same time. eg I could set up Norton on both, via a 5 device subscription and virus scan 2 removable drives at the same time.

or eg I sometimes video record financial video adverts, because they remove these later, and you cant download them. I record them to compare what they predicted with what happens in the future.

now whilst video recording, I cant use that computer. but as I have 2 computers, I can use the other computer to do things on the internet!

with downloading, something similar, if you have 2 broadband accounts, eg via mobile phone providers, with 2 computers you could download in half the time if it was several downloads. also depends how fast the hosting of the website, and how many other people trying to download.

another example is modern video recorders, tend to be able to record 2 programs simultaneously. but what if there are 3 programs you desperately want to record?

if you buy 2 recorders, then you can record up to 4 programs simultaneously!

with these examples, you have to literally walk across the room and disconnect and reconnect drives etc, where you become part of the program, but it is worth it if it saves some hours!

its not point and click, you can make some such things point and click but only for something very specific.


at uni, at lunchtime, all the students began checking their messages, with some precursor of emails, and the ethernet would grind to a halt, where it would be faster to transfer data by putting it on a floppy disk and walk!

10 Amigas, is like say having 8 cores, is it 8x the speed? yes and no, in general no, but for some problems yes.

its like if you have 10 cars, is that 10x the transport capacity?

yes and no, depends if you can arrange 10 drivers AND if you have 10x as much stuff to transport!

eg if you want to transport 5 concrete mixers and have 7 drivers, then you'd only get 5x the transport.

whereas if you have a mining truck, then yes it is 10x or even 100x the transport capacity!

(but only 5x if you are transporting 5 concrete mixers)

even the 10x speed CPU isnt always 10x, as the bottleneck might be the drives or USB1 interface.

when I bought my first car, I got the dealer to deliver the car.

the dealer and his assistant appeared at the door, why 2 people?

the assistant drove my car, the dealer drove his car.

the dealer returned with the assistant as a passenger!

To fully utilize the PCI-E 5.0 x4 speeds, that add-on card should have double the output ports it currently has.

ok, didnt realise that, its a deficiency of the card!

Yeah, with HDDs, no point using SATA3. SATA1 which does 150 MB/s will suffice. But no modern MoBo has SATA1 on them. They all have SATA3.

So, in that sense, SATA versions didn't do any good for HDDs, but did help along SSDs.

with my 2007 laptop, I replaced the SATA magnetic drive with an SSD!

Yes. Need to look closely if it is written in Bytes or Bits.


Yes.

All desktop MoBo M.2 slots are PCI-E with 4 lanes. So: PCI-E x4.

I want to install the M.2 next, maybe I'll understand better what you are saying when I try that.

what I find confusing at this point, is the M.2 slot isnt one of the PCI-E slots, but you say it is PCI-E,

that would mean there are 7 PCI-E slots?
with 4 stealth ones via the M.2's?

Though, some small/obscure MoBo may have M.2 slot limited to 2 or 1 lane as well. E.g all-in-one PC (where PC is built into a monitor) can have limitations on M.2 slot.


What you want and what are you able to get - are two different things.

Only way to get total power off for M.2 drive is to use external drive, which communicates over USB protocol. This way, when you're done with the drive, you can let PC to know that you're about to disconnect the drive (just like you do with USB thumb drive). Then PC knows to wrap up and stop communicating with the drive, where it is safe to remove the drive from system. And once you unplug the drive, you can power it off.

which is why most of my drives will remain as USB ones, but maybe as SATA ones encased in USB,

But the fact that M.2 drive has to communicate over USB protocol, means that it will be FAR slower than what the drive itself is capable of operating.
Like i said, your 990 Pro read speeds are up to 7,27 GB/s. There is no USB port in your PC that can reach those speeds. Only JUSB2 type-C comes closest, at 2,5 GB/s.

where I start getting what I want is when they create USB4 and USB5 drives!

PCI-E 4.0 x4 = 7,87 GB/s
Samsung 990 Pro = 7,27 GB/s read, 6,73 GB/s write
JUSB2 type-C = 2,5 GB/s
JUSB1 (and all other USB type-C ports) = 1,25 GB/s

what if someone created a custom device which plugs into both JUSB1 and JUSB2?

where you might get 3.75 GB/s?

or is there a bottleneck further away?

someone once created a custom networking scheme for the Amiga which used both the serial port and the parallel port!
as a way to improvise more sockets for the networking without any hardware modifications of the computer.

where SCSI allows up to I think 7 devices, my Amiga 1200 could do 14 SCSI devices, because I bought 2 SCSI adapters, one was via the PCMCIA slot, and the other was by some totally different system.

So, yes, you can have total power off of M.2 drive, but you'll loose 2/3 of bandwidth what the drive is capable of when using JUSB2 (or even more when using other USB ports).
Your call.


Yes.

The initial build i configured for you, did not take account fanless idea, instead, build (including PC case) was composed with the active cooling idea.

Now, CPU cooler alone, should suffice to cool the CPU, but if you also include GPU, MoBo and RAM, which are other heat sources, then using case fans to move entire volume of air inside the PC case, is far better idea than running without case fans. After all, you've already bought high-end Noctua fans. Why not use them?

I'll definitely experiment with them, the only way to find out was to buy and use them.

its not a problem to put the tower in the next room, where I work in a different room,

but I want to directly see if it is viable to have the PC in the same room.

I have to experiment indirectly with the UEFI to see what the lowest noise is.

 

[Richard1234]

another option for fan noise, is to wear noise reducing headphones when using the computer.

the only thing is the only ones I have found are really uncomfortable where its like putting your head in a clamp

 

[Aeacus]

is the Geforce RTX 4060 "large and heavy"?

RTX 4060 is 2 slot GPU and isn't considered "heavy". So, it doesn't need GPU support.

RTX 4090, however, is 4 slot GPU and needs GPU support. It's one of the heaviest, if not the heaviest, GPUs out there.
3 slot GPUs would also do fine with GPU support, like RTX 4080.

In a nutshell;
1 slot GPU - no need for GPU support
2 slot GPU - no need for GPU support
3 slot GPU - GPU support is suggested
4 slot GPU - GPU support is required

what I find confusing at this point, is the M.2 slot isnt one of the PCI-E slots, but you say it is PCI-E,

There are two forms of M.2 drives;
NVMe - which uses PCI-E protocol
AHCI - which uses SATA protocol

M.2 slots on your MoBo support only NVMe drives, thus, the slots operate only in PCI-E protocol mode, hence why i talk about PCI-E.

Now, on your MoBo, there are several different slots that use PCI-E protocol. Those are: 4x M.2 slots and 3x PCI-E x16 slots.
In similar sense, on your MoBo, there are also several different ports that use USB protocol. Those are: internal USB 2.0, internal USB 3.0, internal USB type-C (10 Gbps and 20 Gbps), USB type-A (5 Gbps) and USB type-C (10 Gbps) ports.

that would mean there are 7 PCI-E slots?
with 4 stealth ones via the M.2's?

Not quite.

When you call a slot a "PCI-E slot" then it refers to the PCI-E x16 (or x8 or x4 or x1) slot where you can plug your GPU and other add-on cars in. M.2 slots are called just M.2, but they operate over PCI-E protocol.

In similar sense, USB type-C port is completely different from USB type-A port, but they both still operate over USB protocol.

what if someone created a custom device which plugs into both JUSB1 and JUSB2?

It doesn't work like that since there are USB protocol differences. It MAY work when both input ports use the same USB protocol, e.g this USB type-A reverse splitter;

And even then, this cable is meant to connect 2x PCs to 1x printer, so both PCs can send print data to one printer over USB. So, it's output cable and not input cable.

I have to experiment indirectly with the UEFI to see what the lowest noise is.

I suggest that you fine tune your fans to spin to your likening, compared to completely stopping them.

another option for fan noise, is to wear noise reducing headphones when using the computer.

This is, yes, one option. I also use headset heavily, not because my case fans noise annoys me, but because i don't want my music/sounds to annoy others i live with.

the only thing is the only ones I have found are really uncomfortable where its like putting your head in a clamp

Headsets have different clamping force.

High clamping force means that headset won't fall off when you move around, especially head tilt, but it also put too much pressure to temporal lobes, causing headaches.

I personally prefer low clamping force headsets, like my Corsair Void RGB Pro USB (specs) and Corsair Void RGB Elite USB (specs). They are very comfortable to wear since they doesn't pressure temporal lobes. But if you tilt your head down or up, they will fall off. So, there is tradeoff. Oh, they also have good outside noise cancellation and also digital 7.1 surround sound. There are also wireless variants of them.

 

[Richard1234]

RTX 4060 is 2 slot GPU and isn't considered "heavy". So, it doesn't need GPU support.

I didnt realise it is 2 slot, are you saying it uses 2 of the 3 PCI-E slots?

I havent opened the box yet, I tend to unbox each item at the last possible moment that way I can potentially sell the item as unopened.

with 2nd hand items, factory sealed items command a higher premium.

RTX 4090, however, is 4 slot GPU and needs GPU support. It's one of the heaviest, if not the heaviest, GPUs out there.
3 slot GPUs would also do fine with GPU support, like RTX 4080.

the RTX 4090 will work with this mobo?

I thought this mobo was 3 PCI-e slots?

In a nutshell;
1 slot GPU - no need for GPU support
2 slot GPU - no need for GPU support
3 slot GPU - GPU support is suggested
4 slot GPU - GPU support is required


There are two forms of M.2 drives;
NVMe - which uses PCI-E protocol
AHCI - which uses SATA protocol

M.2 slots on your MoBo support only NVMe drives, thus, the slots operate only in PCI-E protocol mode, hence why i talk about PCI-E.

ok, its the protocol rather than the socket.

I have now installed the M.2 drive to M2_3, I just removed the 2 protective films for the M2_3 drive, not the 2 for the M2_2 drive,
is that correct?

it does look like a PCI socket, but a miniaturised one.

the securing clip doesnt go as far as the mobo manual p 37 suggests, but eg if the opened clip is regarded as 45°, its more like 90°+45°, and not 180° as suggested by the manual. I checked with the other M2_2 socket with no M.2 drive, and it only goes up to maybe 90+45°, unless they expect a lot of force. Either I am not doing it correctly or that is a mistake with the manual!

it looks straightforward to uninstall, but I want to avoid too much attaching and detaching as the contacts will eventually wear out.

I set the UEFI to legacy, I think called CSM, but neither XP nor 32 bit Windows 10 would install, I get an error message and not enough time to read the message!

what point is there giving an error message if you dont allow people time to read it!

this hasnt been thought through properly.

also before the UEFI screen appears, same problem where it mentions some stuff eg which key does what, and it doesnt give enough time to read it!

I am attempting to install Windows 10 64 bit, using the remaining unused key I bought a few years ago, but with a download from now, and it seems to be working. I bought a further 4 keys for Windows 10 Pro, for future use.

for language, the Windows 10 Pro install only allows English (UK), I would have expected at least english (US) also!

also for booting from the optical drive, it just gives a few seconds to press a key, as the boot start takes 10 years, if you arent focussing on the screen you could miss that and be back at the UEFI screen.

I selected UEFI USB optical as the first boot drive, why doesnt it just boot from that?



I found another design problem with my 2023 Windows 11 laptop. I used it to download the current Windows 10 32 bit and 64 bit isos to the external Samsung USB3 SSD. when complete I switched off the machine at the mains.

next morning, I found that the drive was warm! although the machine is switched off at the mains, it is drawing power, that is so stupid!

what possible use is there for an external USB drive to draw power when the machine is powered off!

lets drain the battery for no good reason!

so I have to disconnect the USB drive each time I power down, which then wears out the sockets, this is my criticism that engineers dont communicate with users and programmers.

with ARM, they heavily scrutinised what programmers did and literally junked most of the electronics as nobody used it!

its like with the USB sockets, rather than having lots of USB sockets, it would be far better engineering to just have a much higher bandwidth socket which could be connected to external hubs with USB sockets of guaranteed bandwidths, see later comment.

Now, on your MoBo, there are several different slots that use PCI-E protocol. Those are: 4x M.2 slots and 3x PCI-E x16 slots.

this is where I am mystified where a 4 slot GPU would go!

and will my 2 slot GPU use up 2 of the 3 PCI-E's?

In similar sense, on your MoBo, there are also several different ports that use USB protocol. Those are: internal USB 2.0, internal USB 3.0, internal USB type-C (10 Gbps and 20 Gbps), USB type-A (5 Gbps) and USB type-C (10 Gbps) ports.


Not quite.

When you call a slot a "PCI-E slot" then it refers to the PCI-E x16 (or x8 or x4 or x1) slot where you can plug your GPU and other add-on cars in. M.2 slots are called just M.2, but they operate over PCI-E protocol.

In similar sense, USB type-C port is completely different from USB type-A port, but they both still operate over USB protocol.


It doesn't work like that since there are USB protocol differences. It MAY work when both input ports use the same USB protocol, e.g this USB type-A reverse splitter;

And even then, this cable is meant to connect 2x PCs to 1x printer, so both PCs can send print data to one printer over USB. So, it's output cable and not input cable.

that's more like a KVM switch idea, where you can connect the same monitor, keyboard and mouse to different computers.

I can actually do this with my wireless handshake mouse, where it has a switch with 3 options: 2 wireless options, and 1 USB dongle based option. that way I can use it with both my 2023 laptop and my 2010 PC, and in the future my 2024 PC.

I cannot use the wireless option with the 2010 PC.


I use the laptop with external monitor via DP cable, external mouse namely handshake mouse with wireless option, and wireless keyboard which can only connect to one PC>

vastly better to use when everything is external, the inbuilt monitor, keyboard and mouse are unusable.


as regards your earlier reply to my earlier question: "I think once you use a hub, then they will either compete, or all go slower as the hub is presumably a bottleneck for all attached devices."

Yes.

Since when you use a hub, that uses e.g: 1x input port but 4x output ports, then each output port is capable of 25% of total bandwidth, when all 4x ports are in use at the same time.

I was thinking that someone could create a hub, eg say USB3 hub, but which connects to say a USB4 socket, where each hub socket gets a full undivided USB3 bandwidth,

wikipedia seems to say USB4 gen4 can do 80 Gbps, and there is reference to 120Gbps, maybe not implemented yet, where with 80Gbps, you could do say 8 of the 10Gbps USB3 sockets,

where this is the MO of guaranteed bandwidths.

traffic lights enable guaranteed car traffic bandwidth at crossroads, whereas roundabouts dont, a through road can block off lesser roads at rush hour. roundabouts are a completely stupid idea! in Bristol they eventually re-engineered some roundabout into a really complex crossroads, with several lanes of the through road, and complicated regulation of the junction by traffic lights with filter arrows.

I suggest that you fine tune your fans to spin to your likening, compared to completely stopping them.

I have experimented a bit, I have found that the voltage steps are 0.12V, eg you cant do 5.00V, but can do say 4.80V, 4.92V, 5.04V, etc.

I was trying without luck to get say 5.00V, then scrutinised the values I could get and realised they are steps of 0.12V!

not 100% sure, but at 4.68V I think the fans dont turn, and at 4.80V they do

the temperature graph appears to be between 45°C and 60°C, I have temporarily set:

30°C 2.4V
45°C 4.68V
62°C 4.68V
90°C 12V

but with this, sometimes they will be at 0RPM and other times can be say above 800RPM, I havent scrutinised what RPMs occur.

so far have had difficulty getting lower RPMs, this again is an engineering problem to enable low RPMs, I think what is needed is gears. eg with a car, you need gears and the clutch to deal with a wider range of speeds, each gear has limits. people understood this problem long ago, because with watches, you have this problem with the second hand, minute hand and hour hand, where if you ever opened up an old era clock, they have a ton of cogwheels to deal with the incomparably different speeds, from 1rpm for the second hand to 1/60 rpm for the minute hand, and 1/(60x12)=1/720 rpm for the hour hand. fastest/slowest = 720. you cant do that range without gears. the power of the spring from winding up is also dissipated literally second by second for hours, with a really delicate mechanism. I think these noctuas are aimed at high speeds, and the design is deficient for low rpms.


also the UEFI just shows 1 CPU fan, but the Be Quiet has 2 fans!

there is often an ongoing quiet rattling sound, I cannot see where its from, but when all the Noctuas are at 0 RPM, its still there, so could be from the Be Quiet! which perhaps isnt Being Quiet!

I cannot see any cables touching any fan blades.

I decided to encase the PC, reinstating the tempered glass door, installing the PSU cover plate, where I had to disconnect and reconnect some PSU cables to get it to fit,

and connecting the side panel, and also the front panel, and all case filters. as you said the case needs to be shut for the fans to work properly.

I moved the optical drive back to the 2010 PC in order to backup the 2010 PCs drives, but as mentioned elsewhere that backup failed, as the USB hub appears to malfunction after several hours.

later that day I booted back to 32 bit Windows 10 on the 2010 PC, and couldnt get the internet.

had to go on a shopping trek, on return same problem, even if I rebooted the modem.

then realised it could be the USB2 hub problem, so I switched off the mains to the 2010 PC for some minutes, and now the internet functioned correctly!

This is, yes, one option. I also use headset heavily, not because my case fans noise annoys me, but because i don't want my music/sounds to annoy others i live with.

this place here has good soundproofing, via nonstandard triple layer of plasterboard on each side of the internal walls, which means 6 layers of plasterboard between rooms. net effect is you can have some seriously loud equipment in one room, and almost no sound heard in the next room!

I mostly work in silence, no music, no radio, no tv. when I drive also, I drive in silence, no radio, no cd, no music. the only sounds are the sound of the engine and the road. I do this in order to be focussed, when I drive, all I do is drive, when I listen to music, all I do is listen to music. I dont listen to music whilst I drive, I dont drive whilst I listen to music.

but a lot of people continually listen to music when driving.

Headsets have different clamping force.

High clamping force means that headset won't fall off when you move around, especially head tilt, but it also put too much pressure to temporal lobes, causing headaches.

I think its also just bad design, that what you need is adjustable force, rather than unadjustable force!

the first noise reducing headphones were unusable, I got some better ones, not ideal but ok for say 20 minutes, by a firm called "Stone Breaker". with these the earpieces rotate on an axis so they will be parallel to the sides of your head rather than with some headphones where they are a continuation of the C shaped holder where they are at the wrong angle unless your head happens to be the same as that of the idiot who maldesigned them!

I personally prefer low clamping force headsets, like my Corsair Void RGB Pro USB (specs) and Corsair Void RGB Elite USB (specs). They are very comfortable to wear since they doesn't pressure temporal lobes. But if you tilt your head down or up, they will fall off.

it does depend on the design, the more lightweight headphones tend to be better designed, but arent much use for reducing noise!

B&Q sell disposable earplugs, which are made of some orange foam.

https://www.diy.com/departments/dra...gs-jar-of-50-pairs-04115/5059482050619_BQ.prd

So, there is tradeoff. Oh, they also have good outside noise cancellation and also digital 7.1 surround sound. There are also wireless variants of them.

I would prefer without the microphone, or a detachable microphone, because if you arent using a microphone, then its an extra burden. I have only once used a microphone for my PC, when a currency exchange website was getting some feedback from me.

one of the reasons why Germany outdoes most of europe, is in Germany when they do stuff, they have a big discussion involving all participants before they arrive at a decision. the discussion will involve the boss, the workers, the customer, and anyone else who is around!

whereas with american firms, they NEVER communicate with customers, you can only get to customer relations people, NEVER the people who run the show. now with the UK, when I have emailed firms, I have often got a reply from the boss. NEVER from any US firm!

in England, there is usually no discussion, they just make an immediate decision and push this decision through disregarding everyone's protests.

with my place here, I had all the doors changed to outward opening. in England, all doors by default are inward opening. but this means you cant use the zone near the door. I had all doors redone as outward opening, carpenters know how to reconfigure them, and now I can have bookshelves right up to the door. just the corridor is obstructed.

with the bathroom, with inward opening doors, the door will either run into the basin area or the radiator. by having the door outward opening, there were much more options.

 

[Richard1234]

with the earlier topic, for monitors, you gave the following URL:

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product...e&r=256001440&D=75000,540000&V=750075,1000100

where I think you were saying the AOC one is good. where I am looking for high contrast, and dont want a curved screen, but a flat screen.

the thing is the AOC one is permanently out of stock.

often when something is permanently out of stock its because they have brought out a new version, I dont know if you can determine if AOC have done an improved version, or if you can recommend a monitor by some other firm which is in stock new with good contrast, VA, and flat screen. doesnt have to be 27", 23" would be the lowest I'd want, 24" is better, and 27" probably the max, but I might consider maybe 28".

 

[Aeacus]

I didnt realise it is 2 slot, are you saying it uses 2 of the 3 PCI-E slots?

It uses 1x PCI-E x16 slot, but takes up 2x PCI brackets on your PC case, hence 2 slot GPU.

the RTX 4090 will work with this mobo?

I thought this mobo was 3 PCI-e slots?

Yes, it does. All GPUs use only one PCI-E x16 slot, but depending on how beefy the cooler it has on, it can take up anywhere between 1 to 4 PCI brackets on PC case. Since RTX 4090 is 4x PCI slots wide, it is considered as 4 slot GPU.

I set the UEFI to legacy, I think called CSM, but neither XP nor 32 bit Windows 10 would install, I get an error message and not enough time to read the message!

As far as i know, MoBo supports only 64-bit OS. So, switch your Win10 to 64-bit and it should install just fine.

what point is there giving an error message if you dont allow people time to read it!

this hasnt been thought through properly.

There is a key on KB, "Pause/Page break". If you press that while error is shown, it should pause it, so you can read it. To resume (cancel Pause), press Enter.
"Pause" key is just above "Page Up" key, right from "Scroll Lock".

for language, the Windows 10 Pro install only allows English (UK), I would have expected at least english (US) also!

You can change the language afterwards.

I selected UEFI USB optical as the first boot drive, why doesnt it just boot from that?

By default, PC likes to boot off from SATA/M.2 drive, rather than USB drive. Also, MoBo doesn't scan drives beforehand to make sense which of the drives have bootable OS on them and which don't. Instead, once drive is selected MoBo tries to boot off from it. If it can't, it picks 2nd drive from boot order and tries to boot off from that. And so forth until MoBo has tried to boot off from all connected drives.

I found another design problem with my 2023 Windows 11 laptop. I used it to download the current Windows 10 32 bit and 64 bit isos to the external Samsung USB3 SSD. when complete I switched off the machine at the mains.

Laptop has internal battery and when USB drives are connected to it, it can charge them while laptop itself is powered off and unplugged from the mains. Though, you should be able to define from UEFI if laptop is charging USB devices when it is turned off or not.

traffic lights enable guaranteed car traffic bandwidth at crossroads, whereas roundabouts dont, a through road can block off lesser roads at rush hour. roundabouts are a completely stupid idea! in Bristol they eventually re-engineered some roundabout into a really complex crossroads, with several lanes of the through road, and complicated regulation of the junction by traffic lights with filter arrows.

Spoiler: About roundabouts

Roundabouts are far safer and much better for traffic flow than junctions with traffic lights.

I have many roundabouts where i live and i prefer roundabouts over junctions with traffic lights every day of the week. Mainly because with roundabouts, it is safer, i don't have to wait for green light and i don't have to worry about some nutcase blowing through the red light and t-boning me.

Also, with traffic lights, the machine tells you when to go (green light), but machine can mess up as well, showing green light on two intersecting paths, resulting in a crash.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV4M36RAsxE

so far have had difficulty getting lower RPMs, this again is an engineering problem to enable low RPMs, I think what is needed is gears.

To get "gears", look for manual fan controller (e.g the one i have), where i can fine tune fan voltage with 0.1V steps. So, the fan doesn't have to change, instead the control method needs to chance. Hence why i don't like messing around in UEFI to set a fan profile.

also the UEFI just shows 1 CPU fan, but the Be Quiet has 2 fans!

Depends on where you have the CPU fans connected.

Looks like both CPU cooler fans are connected to CPU_FAN header by Y-splitter. In this case, UEFI only shows you the RPM of one fan, while both fans run in sync.

there is often an ongoing quiet rattling sound

Can be fan bearing. Sometimes, some fans, at low RPM, produce bearing rattle. Increasing the fan RPM removes the bearing rattle. So, try increasing CPU fan RPM to see if the rattle goes away.

I mostly work in silence, no music, no radio, no tv. when I drive also, I drive in silence, no radio, no cd, no music. the only sounds are the sound of the engine and the road. I do this in order to be focussed, when I drive, all I do is drive, when I listen to music, all I do is listen to music. I dont listen to music whilst I drive, I dont drive whilst I listen to music.

but a lot of people continually listen to music when driving.

I like to have background music when doing stuff.

E.g i'm currently listening DI.FM Epic Trance radio channel while i'm typing this reply. And when i'm driving with car, i like to listen a CD of an artist i like. Sometimes (usually summer time), i have my driver side window rolled down a bit, so that i can hear better the traffic sounds, but i still have my music going. Background music doesn't make me to loose my focus. Instead, it helps to keep the focus, at least for me. If i were do drive a car without any music at all, i'd be nervous wreck behind the wheel.

the first noise reducing headphones were unusable, I got some better ones, not ideal but ok for say 20 minutes, by a firm called "Stone Breaker". with these the earpieces rotate on an axis so they will be parallel to the sides of your head rather than with some headphones where they are a continuation of the C shaped holder where they are at the wrong angle unless your head happens to be the same as that of the idiot who maldesigned them!

If you're an audiophile, then look towards: JCB, Bose and Sennheiser headphones (headsets), since those are cream of the crop. I'm not an audiophile, so, for me the normal "gaming" headset will do, as long as it has digital 7.1 surround sound that i require (like my Corsair headsets). I can't live with normal stereo headset.

I would prefer without the microphone, or a detachable microphone, because if you arent using a microphone, then its an extra burden. I have only once used a microphone for my PC, when a currency exchange website was getting some feedback from me.

Corsair Virtuoso headsets have detachable mic and 3 ways of connectivity (wireless, USB and 3.5mm jack);
specs: https://www.corsair.com/eu/en/p/gam...delity-gaming-headset-carbon-eu-ca-9011185-eu

For other options,
further reading: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/best/headphones

or if you can recommend a monitor by some other firm which is in stock new with good contrast, VA, and flat screen. doesnt have to be 27", 23" would be the lowest I'd want, 24" is better, and 27" probably the max, but I might consider maybe 28".

The Asus Tuf gaming vg27aqa1a is also good option,
specs: https://www.asus.com/displays-desktops/monitors/tuf-gaming/tuf-gaming-vg27aqa1a/
review: https://mezha.media/en/reviews/asus-tuf-gaming-vg27aqa1a-gaming-monitor-review/

 

[Richard1234]

ok, I have 64 bit Windows 10 now installed to the 2T M.2 drive on M2_3, to a partition of 1/8 the size. and am posting this from the new PC! but with the 2007 passive 3D LG monitor, which is a great HD monitor, and USB cable mouse, and PS/2 keyboard via usb to PS/2 splitter.

I have installed Firefox, and imported bookmarks and passwords, eg visiting this forum via the imported bookmark, and logging in using the imported password.

uploaded this screenshot also from the new PC:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/mobo/screenshot.jpg

I am just experimenting at the moment, and am prepared to totally reinstall everything again.

the MSI mobo supplies a flash drive, with drivers, some installs failed, possibly because I tried installing them without rebooting after an initial install which enabled the internet.so will try to reinstall those later.

it was getting really late at night, like after 3am, and I was falling asleep from mental exhaustion, so I didnt want to reboot each time it advised this, but maybe its best to, as that ensures more functionality for the next stage of the install.

the disk setup is like this:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/mobo/disks.jpg

this is just temporary, I might completely reformat and reinstall, I want to see how much storage space is leftover on the system partition, because the MSI mobo seems to have a lot of stuff on it so the current allocation might not be enough.

here is a screenshot of the hardware list:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/mobo/hardware.jpg

It uses 1x PCI-E x16 slot, but takes up 2x PCI brackets on your PC case, hence 2 slot GPU.


Yes, it does. All GPUs use only one PCI-E x16 slot, but depending on how beefy the cooler it has on, it can take up anywhere between 1 to 4 PCI brackets on PC case. Since RTX 4090 is 4x PCI slots wide, it is considered as 4 slot GPU.

ok, so its about the size rather than the sockets!

I thought you meant it would use up 4 PCI sockets!

I did notice the slots are much further apart than with my 2010 PC.

at the moment no GPU installed, and it seems reasonable. will probably try to source and use a new monitor before installing the GPU.

this isnt just an install, but involves also a lot of experimenting,

As far as i know, MoBo supports only 64-bit OS. So, switch your Win10 to 64-bit and it should install just fine.

have got 64 bit Windows 10 now installed, the MSI stuff not fully installed yet.

There is a key on KB, "Pause/Page break".

one of those keys I have never used! will try that on the next session.

there are various keys which I think must have been for the pre-Windows PCs, ie MSDOS. the only one I have used till now is "Print Screen" which takes a screenshot, where you then select "paste" from an image editor eg Paint.

If you press that while error is shown, it should pause it, so you can read it. To resume (cancel Pause), press Enter.
"Pause" key is just above "Page Up" key, right from "Scroll Lock".

will try that on the next session.

You can change the language afterwards.

I am downloading Windows 11 at the moment, and looks like one has to select the language before downloading. but as you say can change that later.
for Windows 11 I selected US english for the download, best to install Windows with everything configured to the US, I even selected location as US, as these things are only properly tested with everything set to the US.

visiting Germany in 2007, I went to a library and was trying to search for some german stuff on german Google, ie Google.de and wasnt able to find it.

I then tried US Google, ie Google.com and found it just like that!

in one era I was discussing a lot of computer things with this american guy, and he would find stuff on Google that I couldnt, where I asked what search expression he used, and when I tried it, I couldnt find the stuff, I eventually found it was because he was using US Google, Google.com, whereas I was using UK google, google.co.uk

but on some machines Google.com redirects to the local Google, you'd have to use VPN or something like that to pretend to be in the US.

I think Google routes you through the local Google database first, and you can get stuck there.

Google doesnt actually search the internet, because a lot of websites might easily take 20 seconds to load, so its not possible for Google to search 1 million websites in 0.1 seconds! 1 year maybe, not 0.1 seconds!

instead Google ongoingly trawls the internet, and catalogues the webpages in its servers, and often a webpage on Google no longer exists as the cache data is stale.

Google trawls the internet, and searches its catalogues which ARENT on the internet.

By default, PC likes to boot off from SATA/M.2 drive, rather than USB drive. Also, MoBo doesn't scan drives beforehand to make sense which of the drives have bootable OS on them and which don't. Instead, once drive is selected MoBo tries to boot off from it. If it can't, it picks 2nd drive from boot order and tries to boot off from that. And so forth until MoBo has tried to boot off from all connected drives.

ok, I will have to experiment when I try to have Windows 11 also installed. at the moment everything is experimental, where I am not relying on any of the installed stuff, as I might reformat the drive and start again.

Laptop has internal battery and when USB drives are connected to it, it can charge them while laptop itself is powered off and unplugged from the mains. Though, you should be able to define from UEFI if laptop is charging USB devices when it is turned off or not.

wasnt aware of this, will have to experiment with this later.

Spoiler: About roundabouts

Roundabouts are far safer and much better for traffic flow than junctions with traffic lights.

Spoiler: About roundabouts

Spoiler: expand for off topic comments on roundabouts

only in low traffic conditions,

if you have 4 or more roads attached to the roundabout, eg say with clock notation, at 3, 6, 9 and 12 O clock, with UK left hand drive and roundabouts clockwise, where you have to give way to cars arriving on the right,

and you are at 3 O clock, but 12 O clock to 6 O clock is rush hour through traffic jammed up, like 100s of cars queuing at 12 O clock,

then you cannot get on the roundabout, as you have to give way to the right,

also a lot of cars go fast round the roundabout, so even when the traffic is less dense, you still cant go, ALSO some drivers are more timid and less willing to rush through a gap in traffic where that 1 driver might wait 5 minutes to drive through, then the next driver another 5 minutes, and you are driver number 5 .

if you are at 9 O clock, same problem if rush hour is the other direction, usually in the morning it is one direction, and in the evening it is the other direction. in Bristol, the evening rush hour begins at 3pm, and can continue till at least 530pm,

so I 100% disagree! I think you dont drive in a big city. if you live out in the sticks, then yes they are great. but they are also wasteful of land, as a roundabout uses much more land than a crossroads.

a lot of the traffic problems in Bristol are because of roundabouts without traffic lights on major through roads. now some of our roundabouts have traffic lights on the through roads, and those are much better as eventually the traffic lights guarantee you can get through.

I have many roundabouts where i live and i prefer roundabouts over junctions with traffic lights every day of the week.

Spoiler: expand for off topic comments on roundabouts

you may have many roundabouts, but do you have major city rush hour traffic across those? and even the through roads get blocked up if there is say a big supermarket or shopping precinct on the side road at say 9 O clock also trying to get to 6 O clock, where you are on the jammed up through road at 12 O clock.

with that, what happens is there is little traffic from 6 O' clock to 12 O'clock, so the queue of traffic at 9 O'clock easily gets on the roundabout, and then blocks off the much bigger queue of traffic at 12 O'clock.

eg we have this in Bristol, where there is a big supermarket at 8 O clock, and a shopping precinct plus Ikea at 10 O'clock, where there is perennial traffic through to 6 O'clock, badly blocking off 12 O'clock. with this one, there is no side road at 3 O'clock, the Google Earth coordinates are 51°28'28.26"N 2°33'51.25"W
12 O'clock is Eastgate road, 6 O'clock is Eastgate road continued, where everyone at rush hour is trying to get to the nearby M32 motorway.

with big cities, you get literally 1000s of cars driving into the city in the morning, the morning rush hour, and in the afternoon eg 3pm onwards, 1000s leaving the city.

I think you havent seen roundabouts stress tested, I have every week, both the above one, and some other specific ones, every week, and it is a nightmare, as with shopping I always run into rush hour for the return journey. and its always the same problem, a rush hour through road blocking off the other roads, the Ikea one above is unusual in that its 2 major shopping zones blocking off a rush hour through road!

Mainly because with roundabouts, it is safer, i don't have to wait for green light and i don't have to worry about some nutcase blowing through the red light and t-boning me.

Spoiler: expand for off topic comments on roundabouts

you need to check regardless of situation, even with a roundabout, someone might not give way, doesnt happen often but might be a newly qualified driver. also some people will try changing lanes on a roundabout and that is problematic, with Bristol I avoid driving on Saturdays, because all the nutters go shopping on Saturdays!

Also, with traffic lights, the machine tells you when to go (green light), but machine can mess up as well, showing green light on two intersecting paths, resulting in a crash.

you must always check, even if you have signage and equipment and even a roundabout, someone might go the wrong way round,

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV4M36RAsxE

internet videos are no defence!

in a court of law, jurors are prohibited from looking up the case online, their decision has to be based entirely on what is presented in court.

To get "gears", look for manual fan controller (e.g the one i have), where i can fine tune fan voltage with 0.1V steps. So, the fan doesn't have to change, instead the control method needs to chance. Hence why i don't like messing around in UEFI to set a fan profile.


Depends on where you have the CPU fans connected.

Looks like both CPU cooler fans are connected to CPU_FAN header by Y-splitter. In this case, UEFI only shows you the RPM of one fan, while both fans run in sync.

is there an alternative to that Y splitter?

Can be fan bearing. Sometimes, some fans, at low RPM, produce bearing rattle. Increasing the fan RPM removes the bearing rattle. So, try increasing CPU fan RPM to see if the rattle goes away.

looks like it might be that, as it only happens when they are slower, its a kind of wavering sound,

I'll try to speed up the slowest speed later, right now writing this, its rattling away as the PC case is right behind the monitor, as I have improvised a small work table. literally just wide enough for keyboard and mouse, and the monitor on the next and larger MDF table.

I like to have background music when doing stuff.

E.g i'm currently listening DI.FM Epic Trance radio channel while i'm typing this reply. And when i'm driving with car, i like to listen a CD of an artist i like. Sometimes (usually summer time), i have my driver side window rolled down a bit, so that i can hear better the traffic sounds, but i still have my music going. Background music doesn't make me to loose my focus. Instead, it helps to keep the focus, at least for me. If i were do drive a car without any music at all, i'd be nervous wreck behind the wheel.

this is escapism!

in the modern era a lot of mothers place their kids in front of a television, net effect is when the kids grow up they have to have a tv or radio on permanently. the problem is the music or DJ is noise, your memory will be filled with irrelevant noise.

now in my case, my mother banned tv, and I only started watching tv aged 13, when I was sent to boarding school.

try driving for a day without any radio, any music.

If you're an audiophile, then look towards: JCB, Bose and Sennheiser headphones (headsets), since those are cream of the crop.

the mistake I made is selecting from what was available in the shops,

in the 1990s Bose did some noise cancelling headphones, which electronically create the opposing sound. 1980s Sennheiser were famous for hifi headphones.

in the 1980s Bose specialised in small loudspeakers which produce the sound of large loudspeakers, where a small Bose would create deep bass. I have some smaller Boses attached to a TV, and if you turn them up louder with films, its like being at the cinema.

I'm not an audiophile, so, for me the normal "gaming" headset will do, as long as it has digital 7.1 surround sound that i require (like my Corsair headsets). I can't live with normal stereo headset.


Corsair Virtuoso headsets have detachable mic and 3 ways of connectivity (wireless, USB and 3.5mm jack);
specs: https://www.corsair.com/eu/en/p/gaming-headsets/ca-9011185-eu/virtuoso-rgb-wireless-high-fidelity-gaming-headset-carbon-eu-ca-9011185-eu

For other options,
further reading: https://www.rtings.com/headphones/reviews/best/headphones


The Asus Tuf gaming vg27aqa1a is also good option,
specs: https://www.asus.com/displays-desktops/monitors/tuf-gaming/tuf-gaming-vg27aqa1a/
review: https://mezha.media/en/reviews/asus-tuf-gaming-vg27aqa1a-gaming-monitor-review/

I had a look, and it looks interesting, how would you say it compares with that AOC, any pluses or minuses?

I might go for that one, do you have a purchase link?

I use the computer mainly for text and also photos, where I want things like black, and yellow to be displayed nicely, darker blacks, with stronger contrast, and higher brightnesses available if necessary.

 

[USAFRet]

ok, I have 64 bit Windows 10 now installed to the 2T M.2 drive on M2_3, to a partition of 1/8 the size. and am posting this from the new PC!

" to a partition of 1/8 the size"

WHY???
Partitioning a single drive like this is rarely useful.

Currently, you have a 250GB partition for the OS and applications. Unless your system use is very minimal, this will run out sooner than you think.

 

[Richard1234]

" to a partition of 1/8 the size"

WHY???
Partitioning a single drive like this is rarely useful.

Currently, you have a 250GB partition for the OS and applications. Unless your system use is very minimal, this will run out sooner than you think.

because with my 2010 PC, and 32 bit Windows 10, after a few years of use, the 162GB system disk has some 40G free, 122G in use.

I download and store stuff away from the system drive, the system drive ultimately is just for app installs, projects done with the apps are always to other drives.

with a program, even 1MB is a lot of stuff, eg a C language compiler can be just 60K. a program instruction is typically 4 bytes, 1MB is thus 250000 instructions! The original AmigaOS fit in 250K, and the original PC all worked within I think 640K.

There is a key on KB, "Pause/Page break". If you press that while error is shown, it should pause it, so you can read it. To resume (cancel Pause), press Enter.
"Pause" key is just above "Page Up" key, right from "Scroll Lock".

I tried this and it doesnt work, maybe I didnt press it fast enough.

and now I cannot even get to the UEFI screen, it just shows the message with at least 3 escape codes and no time to read them. its basically stupid design. giving a complicated message and 0.1 seconds to read it. its not been properly betatested.

trying one of the escape codes, it then asked if I wanted to flash the BIOS!

luckily they gave me as much time as I needed to say no!

Here is a screenshot showing the inbuilt graphics info, which seems to be ATI Radeon:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/mobo/graphics.jpg

I havent figured out how to do rectangular excerpts from "Paint 3D", I'd have to use my 2010 PC for that, hence the entire screen.

Spoiler: expand for off topic on roundabouts

off topic: roundabouts are the ethernet MO, traffic lights are token ring, ethernet and roundabouts are great when not much traffic, and ethernet jams up 100% if too much traffic, and roundabouts jam up 100% for some lanes when too much traffic. not talking about the ethernet socket but an ethernet network.

 

[USAFRet]

because with my 2010 PC, and 32 bit Windows 10, after a few years of use, the 162GB system disk has some 40G free, 122G in use.

I download and store stuff away from the system drive, the system drive ultimately is just for app installs, projects done with the apps are always to other drives.

with a program, even 1MB is a lot of stuff, eg a C language compiler can be just 60K. a program instruction is typically 4 bytes, 1MB is thus 250000 instructions! The original AmigaOS fit in 250K, and the original PC all worked within I think 640K.

Well, if it works for you, great.

But things have changed in the last 15 years.
For instance, the VisualStudio Community install can be around 150GB all by itself.

And what happened with Amigas and DOS PCs is totally irrelevant.

 

[USAFRet]

I havent figured out how to do rectangular excerpts from "Paint 3D", I'd have to use my 2010 PC for that, hence the entire screen.

Snipping Tool.

 

[Aeacus]

have got 64 bit Windows 10 now installed, the MSI stuff not fully installed yet.

You don't need to install all MSI 3rd party software. Only MoBo drivers and firmware are needed. Other software is essentially bloatware.
Latest drivers: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#driver
Latest firmware: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#firmware
Latest utility, if you want those as well: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#utility (just select correct OS beforehand)

is there an alternative to that Y splitter?

When it comes to fan connection, besides connecting 1x fan to 1x header, there are 3 other methods as well;

Splitter - usually Y-splitter (for 2x fans), but can also be up to 5x fan one. Uses one MoBo fan header and doesn't have any additional power source, other than MoBo fan header. Only able to control all fans in sync.

Fan hub - similar to splitter but with a key difference of having supplementary power connector from PSU. Key difference is being only able to control all fans at once (in sync), just like Splitter.

Fan controller - similar to hub, but with a key difference of individual fan control. Can be either manual fan controller, standalone from MoBo (e.g Thermaltake Commander F6 RGB, NZXT Sentry 3 and the like), or has dedicated software by connecting to MoBo via USB 2.0 internal header (e.g Corsair iCUE Commander Pro, NZXT Grid+ V3).

this is escapism!

in the modern era a lot of mothers place their kids in front of a television, net effect is when the kids grow up they have to have a tv or radio on permanently. the problem is the music or DJ is noise, your memory will be filled with irrelevant noise.

now in my case, my mother banned tv, and I only started watching tv aged 13, when I was sent to boarding school.

try driving for a day without any radio, any music.

Spoiler: Off-topic reply

Call it what you like. But i don't consider making my life more liveable as "escapism". I like to listen good music since it makes my mood better. And when driving a car, without mood lifts, it is very easy to fall into bitterness which easily leads to road rage. I don't need that.

You can very well call all entertainment as "escapism". Be it TV shows, cinema, concerts, radio, theater, video games, singing, playing instruments etc etc. With a logic of:"all entertainment makes people escape the reality - thus it must be escapism.". If you hate all entertainment that much, you do you. I, in the other hand, use entertainment for my personal pleasure and delight.

I had a look, and it looks interesting, how would you say it compares with that AOC, any pluses or minuses?

Just compare the specs;
AOC: https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/2ebc34c1
Asus: https://www.asus.com/displays-desktops/monitors/tuf-gaming/tuf-gaming-vg27aqa1a/

Or use the small pcpp comparison: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/BycgXL,kJP8TW/

Asus brightness is a bit lower but other than that, both are equal. Oh, Asus also has built-in speakers.

I might go for that one, do you have a purchase link?

Amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BSXBCS3C

I havent figured out how to do rectangular excerpts from "Paint 3D", I'd have to use my 2010 PC for that, hence the entire screen.

Use command of: Alt + Print Screen. This captures only the highlighted window and not entire screen.

Just select the window (e.g CPU-Z), hold down Alt and press Print Screen. Then, when you paste it to Paint, only that program/explorer window is pasted over.

 

[USAFRet]

try driving for a day without any radio, any music.

I/we do that frequently.

Long drive (600 miles each way) next month, will be exactly that.

 

[Richard1234]

Well, if it works for you, great.

But things have changed in the last 15 years.
For instance, the VisualStudio Community install can be around 150GB all by itself.

probably depends on which commercial app suites or environments you install,

right now with only a few things installed eg Google Earth, 80Gig of the 232Gig is in use,
now with my 2010 PC, which I installed in summer 2021, 122Gig is in use,
ie the further apps account for 42Gig,

thus it can go either way depending what you go for,

if I did run out of space, I would have to do a new install!

And what happened with Amigas and DOS PCs is totally irrelevant.

you are into things on the boundary of yes and no!

in a specific sense, yes, but what any system out there does or did does give a frame of reference, and it is something that can be done. with the Amiga, you could install stuff anywhere, via virtual directories, namely the "assigns". thus you could install any app on any disk, where you could keep the system disk minimal. the original system floppy was more or less full, so it wasnt even viable to install apps to it!

where I asked: I havent figured out how to do rectangular excerpts from "Paint 3D", I'd have to use my 2010 PC for that, hence the entire screen.

you replied:

Snipping Tool.

no idea where to find that, here is a screenshot of the editting of that earlier image:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/mobo/where.jpg

where in that will I find the snipping tool?

eg maybe annotate that

there isnt a normal menu like with apps I am used to. if I click "Menu" in the top left, this is what happens:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/mobo/where2.jpg

 

[USAFRet]

Snipping tool is built in with Win 10 and 11.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us...1843-655f-f220-97299b865f6b#ID0EDD=Windows_11

 

[Richard1234]

You don't need to install all MSI 3rd party software. Only MoBo drivers and firmware are needed. Other software is essentially bloatware.

ok, and I have run into another problem that if I run the flash drive now, all that stuff which didnt install is no longer there for installing!

originally there was a load of buttons to install all kinds of stuff, and now I cannot get that!

I didnt install the 60 day Norton trial, as I am already subscribed to a 5 device Norton, and also Norton antitrack, so would only install that when the current subscription ends.

I also so far havent registered anything.

Latest drivers: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#driver

Latest firmware: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#firmware
Latest utility, if you want those as well: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#utility (just select correct OS beforehand)


When it comes to fan connection, besides connecting 1x fan to 1x header, there are 3 other methods as well;

Splitter - usually Y-splitter (for 2x fans), but can also be up to 5x fan one. Uses one MoBo fan header and doesn't have any additional power source, other than MoBo fan header. Only able to control all fans in sync.

Fan hub - similar to splitter but with a key difference of having supplementary power connector from PSU. Key difference is being only able to control all fans at once (in sync), just like Splitter.

Fan controller - similar to hub, but with a key difference of individual fan control. Can be either manual fan controller, standalone from MoBo (e.g Thermaltake Commander F6 RGB, NZXT Sentry 3 and the like), or has dedicated software by connecting to MoBo via USB 2.0 internal header (e.g Corsair iCUE Commander Pro, NZXT Grid+ V3).

I probably will try the fan controller eventually,

Spoiler: Off-topic reply

Call it what you like. But i don't consider making my life more liveable as "escapism".

Spoiler: Off-topic reply

Spoiler: off topic comments on escapism

escapism for me is when you no longer are directly interacting with reality, eg fiction, music, films, video games, theatre, ballet, are escapism. I would even class doing a job as escapism, as you arent directly shaping your own reality, but are shaping someone else's reality in exchange for their money which you then exchange for your own reality, eg some food.

if you look things up on the internet that also is escapism to some extent, as its better for you to determine truth directly, but its not viable to determine all truth directly, but you should determine some directly, otherwise you are an onlooker.

eg although I use a calculator, sometimes I will calculate directly with pen and paper, and sometimes I will go further and calculate mentally. eg 15 x 18, I will think: 15 is similar to 1.5, 1.5 x 18 is 18 + 1/2 of 18, 18 + 9 = 27, so 15 x 18 is 270.

18 x 18 is more complicated, this one is (20-2) squared, so is 400 - 2 x 2 x 20 + 4 = 324.

I like to listen good music since it makes my mood better. And when driving a car, without mood lifts, it is very easy to fall into bitterness which easily leads to road rage. I don't need that.

Spoiler: expand for off topic comments on music whilst driving

in the winter in northern latitudes maybe, as its a bit demoralising, but I nonetheless dont play music in the winter, where Bristol is a lot further south than where you are, but eg the sun sets at 4pm in Bristol in the winter, in the summer it sets at 10pm.

I am a believer in reality, to try to face reality, if the winter is demoralising, I want to experience and face that. because if it really is demoralising, maybe I am deluding myself by playing music, and I ought to consider moving nearer the equator.

in the summer, I just feel good driving, without music, I have reality spread out in front of me, and at the start of a long journey I feel good. the return is often at night, and I may be starting to fall asleep, and thus less appreciative of the view, as less view at night and exhausted.

but in the winter, too much of the journey is at night, and the sun is too low in the sky for too long during the day when it can be blinding.

just as a matter of principle I dont listen to music or the radio, I feel this feeds my brain with reality, and I believe the brain works best when filled with reality. when you fill your head with fiction and tv, it corrupts your thought process.

there is a saying that television is the opiate of the masses, with colonial rule of China, they got the population addicted to opium in order to prevent them rebelling. television burdens our brains with so much nonsense, we have no time or energy left to think properly!

You can very well call all entertainment as "escapism". Be it TV shows, cinema, concerts, radio, theater, video games, singing, playing instruments etc etc.

I agree 100%!

With a logic of:"all entertainment makes people escape the reality - thus it must be escapism.".

correct!

If you hate all entertainment that much, you do you. I, in the other hand, use entertainment for my personal pleasure and delight.

Spoiler: expand for off topic comments on entertainment

I dont hate entertainment, I just separate entertainment from reality:

when I want entertainment, I entirely focus on entertainment, eg I may watch a drama series on tv, or listen to some music.

when I listen to music, I prefer to just listen, without video, where its as a spectator, rather than the "disco era" idea of music as just a background for goofy dancing, and the "gig era" idea of music as a background for hard drugs. in bygone centuries also some music was background music for dancing, eg waltzes and kossack music!

approx 2017, I went to the cinema with a friend, his wife, and his brother. the guy was born in 1995, so was about 22, the brother probably 2 years younger so approx 20, the wife approx same age ie 22. We had been driving for more than an hour, and thus I was hungry. I got a snack, which I quickly ate before the horror film, which was either this film or a sequel. the guy's brother got popcorn and a slush puppy drink (a bit like flavoured hailstones). He spent the ENTIRE FILM eating and drinking. I was horrified by this crass behaviour! whereas with me, I watched the entire film without eating or drinking, all eating before the film. because when I watch a film, all I do is watch the film, my actions are focussed. For me the cinema isnt a place of eating, nor of socialising, entirely a place to watch films.

whereas he was wallowing in the circumstance, eating, drinking, watching, gorging all his senses simultaneously.

now another time, I visited them, and there was an unsual tv program on. I asked "what is that program?",
his wife replied: "no idea"
I said: but why do you have the program on if no idea?
she replied: I always have the tv on.

I verified with the guy: his wife has to have the tv on permanently, regardless of whether she is watching anything!

she was also very overweight, and would always drink Diet Coke because the word "Diet" was her idea of dieting!

(some weeks ago the guy texted me that he has meanwhile divorced her, but he didnt clarify why!)

tv programs confuse people by overlaying music with the video. I watched a TV program once in a bygone era, where they showed a guy sneaking around in a park. They then replayed the video but with "clownish" music, a bit like with the Benny Hill show, and the guy's actions were comedic. then they replayed the same video with sinister music, and now his actions were sinister! a bit like the Stephen King horror film "it". basically the music colours the perception.

actually that guy from 1995 would laugh just like the clown in the film "it".


your brain is like a PC, it only has so much bandwidth, if you listen to music whilst working on something, the music eats some of the bandwidth. if you work on the something exclusively, without music, without food, etc, your brain is much more focussed and intense. where all the bandwidth is focussed on the work in hand.

similarly if when listening to music, you do nothing else, eg you lie on a bed listening, your bandwidth is now focussed on the music, and you will appreciate it much better. but if you watch a music video, your brain's bandwidth is mostly devoured by the video, and you wont appreciate the tune or lyrics as much.

the songs with my favourite lyrics are all ones where I only listened to audio, no video. but with Youtube when I rewatch these with video, I didnt even notice the lyrics or tunes, as my brain's GPU is overwhelmed with processing the video imagery!

Just compare the specs;
AOC: https://www.displayspecifications.com/en/model/2ebc34c1
Asus: https://www.asus.com/displays-desktops/monitors/tuf-gaming/tuf-gaming-vg27aqa1a/

Or use the small pcpp comparison: https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/BycgXL,kJP8TW/

Asus brightness is a bit lower but other than that, both are equal. Oh, Asus also has built-in speakers.

the comparison says the Asus is 300cd/m^2 versus AOC 700 cd/m^2, do you class that as "a bit" lower or is it "a lot" lower?

I presume cd means candle(s)? 300 candles in 1m^2 versus 700?

how does the ASUS compare with my LG 27UL500 which says 240 cd/m^2, this LG is totally useless, with blurry images.
not to be confused with my passive 3D LG from 2007, Flatron D2342P-PN which is really good, I think the passive 3D requires precision engineering, as it will display 2 images simultaneously.

having in built speakers could be useful, on the other hand inbuilt speakers can lead to rattling and resonance,
could be more useful just to have a headphone out socket to connect to some speakers.

I like the horizontal axis of rotation of the Asus,

Amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0BSXBCS3C


Use command of: Alt + Print Screen. This captures only the highlighted window and not entire screen.

Just select the window (e.g CPU-Z), hold down Alt and press Print Screen. Then, when you paste it to Paint, only that program/explorer window is pasted over.

that's a new trick! but what I was requesting was how to extract an excerpt from an existing image.

so I have learnt something new, but not what I was hoping to learn!