News Nvidia announces RTX 50-series at up to $1,999

[Phaaze88]

I mean, many people here are the enthusiasts or gamers that can't fathom the idea of anything less than no compromise visuals.

How does one even confirm/prove that, short of setting up a poll(that would probably get mangled by bots)?

I don't waste time with water coolers.

Ok, that's a personal preference.
The 5090s still aren't below 2K, except for the five-finger discount; everyone else is going to pay at least 2K due to taxes/vat.

 

[palladin9479]

How does one even confirm/prove that, short of setting up a poll(that would probably get mangled by bots)?



Ok, that's a personal preference.
The 5090s still aren't below 2K, except for the five-finger discount; everyone else is going to pay at least 2K due to taxes/vat.

Squeaky wheel theory, loud minority or silent majority. In most communities or groups there exists an extremely small group who is disproportionately represented. Since this is a tech enthusiast site it stands to reason that a small minority of extremely dedicated or high end tech enthusiasts would be over represented on the forums.

For PC gaming we can see this with the Steam hardware survey. When we think "PC Gamers" we think double or triple large 4K displays, latest greatest hardware, extremely expensive chairs, colorful RBG puke filled rooms, that kind of stuff. Steam survey shows up that is a very small minority and that most "PC Gamers" have older low to mid range systems.

 

[Gaidax]

Squeaky wheel theory, loud minority or silent majority. In most communities or groups there exists an extremely small group who is disproportionately represented. Since this is a tech enthusiast site it stands to reason that a small minority of extremely dedicated or high end tech enthusiasts would be over represented on the forums.

Correct.

It's a simple common-sense addition of factors such as this being a dedicated PC hardware website, and on top of that people bothering to post hundreds or even thousands of posts in the forum section.

 

[thestryker]

For PC gaming we can see this with the Steam hardware survey. When we think "PC Gamers" we think double or triple large 4K displays, latest greatest hardware, extremely expensive chairs, colorful RBG puke filled rooms, that kind of stuff. Steam survey shows up that is a very small minority and that most "PC Gamers" have older low to mid range systems.

FWIW the Steam hardware survey isn't a very accurate representation either.

 

[palladin9479]

FWIW the Steam hardware survey isn't a very accurate representation either.

Umm it's quite literally the PC specs people have installed on computers that play games...

It ... really doesn't get more accurate then that, unless you start trying to play semantics and change definitions around to create a circular argument.

 

[thestryker]

Umm it's quite literally the PC specs people have installed on computers that play games...

It ... really doesn't get more accurate then that, unless you start trying to play semantics and change definitions around to create a circular argument.

The survey is completely random, inconsistent, has had wild data swings from survey to survey and quite obviously doesn't report an accurate representation of the market. I mean maybe you think there are more people using 4090s than RX 6600s or that the 7900 XTX is the most common 7000 series AMD card.

 

[Phaaze88]

Squeaky wheel theory, loud minority or silent majority. In most communities or groups there exists an extremely small group who is disproportionately represented. Since this is a tech enthusiast site it stands to reason that a small minority of extremely dedicated or high end tech enthusiasts would be over represented on the forums.

So the enthusiasts(PC/gaming/OC/cooling/etc), which are the minority here, are over-represented, but by whom?

For PC gaming we can see this with the Steam hardware survey. When we think "PC Gamers" we think double or triple large 4K displays, latest greatest hardware, extremely expensive chairs, colorful RBG puke filled rooms, that kind of stuff. Steam survey shows up that is a very small minority and that most "PC Gamers" have older low to mid range systems.

Steam hardware survey is iffy, and its reliability is questionable(as already mentioned by thestryker), so it should be taken with some salt. Unfortunate that there isn't a more reliable reference out there...

I'm behind the times or something, as I don't think all that stuff necessarily makes one a 'PC gamer'... or I'm being impartial. One could play games a few hours a week and personally claim the title. They enjoy playing games - what is anyone going to do about the self-proclamation?

It's kind of a given that most have low to mid systems, because this is actually a luxury hobby. This same demographic drives game sales for the devs and publishers - though that's probably not the case for in-game macrotransactions(they're long past being 'micro').

 

[ilukey77]

The survey is completely random, inconsistent, has had wild data swings from survey to survey and quite obviously doesn't report an accurate representation of the market. I mean maybe you think there are more people using 4090s than RX 6600s or that the 7900 XTX is the most common 7000 series AMD card.

I think Nvidia is still more commonly used over AMD but most of the Nvidia stats are probably old 1080 and 1650s that people are not bothering to upgrade or happy to keep using ..

As for AMD i think since the 6000 series AMD is doing much better than before and have taken a fair bit of the Nvidia share of GPU's sales ..

Nvidia still sells better ( which always suprise's me because of the constant anti consumer BS ) but with better mind share , RT , DLSS , and fanboys usually hating on AMD's so called bad drivers !!

 

[palladin9479]

Steam hardware survey is iffy, and its reliability is questionable(as already mentioned by thestryker), so it should be taken with some salt. Unfortunate that there isn't a more reliable reference out there...

It's accurate because it's using the accepted scientific methods for how studies should be conducted. You are supposed to be using randomized data sets to reduce the chances of self selection bias happening. You are supposed to take a random sample of a population then collect data, then analyze the data. When the sample size is large enough, bias and abnormalities get smoothed out.

This is the most recent collection from December. (mixed systems)

https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam

45% of systems had 16GB of memory, 32% had 32GB of memory.
Most common GPU was a 3060 though it's only 5.88%, 4.9% for 4060 laptop, 4.73% for a 4060, 4.39% for a 1650 and so forth. Only 1.16% had a 4090, 0.9% had a 4080.
Most common resolution was 1920x1080 at 56%, 2560 x 1440 was at 19.56%, 2560 x 1440 was only 4.2%.

Can chose to view only Windows and the 3060's / 4060's become even more popular.

Just because data disagrees with someone's belief isn't reason to discard that data.

 

[Moonstick2]

I like how you claim that Steam is indicative of the gaming world as a whole.

The whole point of this conversation was your shock at the Steam survey results on screen resolution. Though I'm pretty confident that Steam is indicative of PC gaming as a whole. Not many other popular ways of getting PC games these days.

And sneering at those people out there without the money to spend what you have on a PC is not a pleasant look. For plenty, $400 is a lot of money, especially in some countries.

 

[Moonstick2]

The survey is completely random, inconsistent, has had wild data swings from survey to survey and quite obviously doesn't report an accurate representation of the market. I mean maybe you think there are more people using 4090s than RX 6600s or that the 7900 XTX is the most common 7000 series AMD card.

The takeaway from that (perhaps as a result of the opt-in nature of it) would be that it exaggerates the number of people using high-end components, which in turn would mean that the actual % of Steam users with 4K is even lower than that given.

 

[thestryker]

It's accurate because it's using the accepted scientific methods for how studies should be conducted. You are supposed to be using randomized data sets to reduce the chances of self selection bias happening. You are supposed to take a random sample of a population then collect data, then analyze the data. When the sample size is large enough, bias and abnormalities get smoothed out.

This only works if you control to some degree where the data is coming from. Purely hypothetical here but someone trying to get population data isn't going to include businesses and individuals as a data source then come to a conclusion having mixed them. You can see one of the obvious outliers in the Steam survey from last year where there was a big spike of nvidia GPUs and Intel CPUs.

Valve's data on things like CPU/GPU vendor and OS are probably relatively accurate given the few options here. DRAM/VRAM should also be close to correct for at least the most common, but variance starts to muddy the waters here. Resolution is also probably somewhat close to accurate, but the inclusion of laptops is likely skewing this as it does core counts, DRAM and VRAM capacities.

The more fine grained the results you're looking for are the less accurate they become. As I've already mentioned according to the survey the most common 7000 series video card is the 7900 XTX. There are also things like more 1070s than any single AMD video card. The survey is designed for Valve, who only cares about any device connecting to their service, and not for gaining insight on the average gamer.

 

[valthuer]

$400 is a lot of money, especially in some countries.

I live in a country (Greece) where 400$ (400€, actually) is indeed a lot of money.

That doesn't mean it's enough for a decent gaming PC.

That's all this guy is saying.

 

[valthuer]

It's accurate because it's using the accepted scientific methods for how studies should be conducted. You are supposed to be using randomized data sets to reduce the chances of self selection bias happening. You are supposed to take a random sample of a population then collect data, then analyze the data. When the sample size is large enough, bias and abnormalities get smoothed out.

If memory serves, last time i checked a Steam survey, was back in November, and Valve were still not able to publish basic numbers and add them up to 100%.

That's elementary school math.

I don't know if they even bothered to fix this issue since then.

 

[palladin9479]

This only works if you control to some degree where the data is coming from. Purely hypothetical here but someone trying to get population data isn't going to include businesses and individuals as a data source then come to a conclusion having mixed them. You can see one of the obvious outliers in the Steam survey from last year where there was a big spike of nvidia GPUs and Intel CPUs.

Short answer no.

Long answer is still no only more no.

When doing population demographic statistics, which is what this is, you need as large a random sample size as possible, and it needs to be random. You can then extrapolate those numbers and it will give you a very good picture. The larger the sample size the more the law of averages kicks in and smooths out the impact of outliers.

I realize that data completely disproves your beliefs and that is a very hard pill to swallow. I'll stick with the data.

 

[palladin9479]

If memory serves, last time i checked a Steam survey, was back in November, and Valve were still not able to publish basic numbers and add them up to 100%.

That's elementary school math.

I don't know if they even bothered to fix this issue since then.

Some systems have multiple GPU's active, which is where you get multiple data points for the same source. There is nothing to fix as the impact is minor and doesn't change the overall picture. It's more that laymen do not understand how opt-in surveying works.

 

[SydneyAngel]

Im waiting for Straight Ras benchmarks

 

[thestryker]

I realize that data completely disproves your beliefs and that is a very hard pill to swallow.

I see you keep ignoring the valid points being made to push your belief. You can feel free to believe whatever nonsense you want to I expect it given prior interactions. The Steam survey is overly random and clearly doesn't do anything about statistical outliers otherwise you wouldn't have obvious anomalies happening.

 

[Ogotai]

It's more that laymen do not understand how opt-in surveying works.

i have used steam for quite a few years now, and i have never been asked to to a survey, sorry, palladin, but it should not be used for any thing more then a peek at what is out there for hardware... and what people use...

im sure im not the only one that has never been asked to do the survey

 

[palladin9479]

i have used steam for quite a few years now, and i have never been asked to to a survey, sorry, palladin, but it should not be used for any thing more then a peek at what is out there for hardware... and what people use...

im sure im not the only one that has never been asked to do the survey

I've had it ask several times, its random, which is the entire point in the first place. Steam has an estimated 120~130 million worldwide monthly active users. A 1% random sampling would be over one million records, even at a 50% response rate that is still over 500,000 data points. That is more then sufficient to get a high level overview of what the average PC gaming platform looks like.

There are still people who insist the Earth is flat, so it really doesn't matter what anywhere here thinks or believes.

 

[-Fran-]

I see you keep ignoring the valid points being made to push your belief. You can feel free to believe whatever nonsense you want to I expect it given prior interactions. The Steam survey is overly random and clearly doesn't do anything about statistical outliers otherwise you wouldn't have obvious anomalies happening.

There was an interview with someone from Valve, which I can't find (yeah, sorry), where they touch on the Steam Survey and all the caveats Valve has to apply to its data; they even regret they made it public, heh.

Our friend palladin9479 is not wrong when he says the survey is accurate, because, well yeah; they own the data and know how to present it, but the important point is that, while Steam is huge, it's not "all" of the data out there. This was pointed out by valthuer and that's the important, and possibly key, point here. And the known caveats are when Valve tries to modify the survey which has broken some months and they know.

So, in short: the data is indeed accurate (with some caveats), but it's not 100% of systems or "gamers" out there.

As I always say: while not the "be all end all", it's the best we have as a guide on statistics and should be considered valid, but keep in mind the caveats.

EDIT: Seems like it was part of the insights interview for the 20th Anniversary of HL2: https://www.pcgamer.com/games/fps/v...-what-specs-it-should-target-for-half-life-2/

Regards.

 

[Loadedaxe]

i have used steam for quite a few years now, and i have never been asked to to a survey, sorry, palladin, but it should not be used for any thing more then a peek at what is out there for hardware... and what people use...

im sure im not the only one that has never been asked to do the survey

Me either, I have had 4 systems since utilizing Steam, never got a inquiry.

 

[palladin9479]

Our friend palladin9479 is not wrong when he says the survey is accurate, because, well yeah; they own the data and know how to present it, but the important point is that, while Steam is huge, it's not "all" of the data out there.

This is why I say "PC Gaming", because its not accounting for consoles. Pretty much every PC gamer is going to have steam installed, it's become that large a distribution platform.

"Don't let perfect be the enemy of good", while Steam hardware survey is not perfect, it's definitely good.

If we roll the discussion back the real issue is that there are people that absolutely refuse to accept that the "average" PC gaming platform is running 1080p with older generation hardware. and that 4090, 4K RGB Puke rigs are statistically rare. The whole PC Master Race / elitist mentality that always infects every community.

 

[TeamRed2024]

The whole point of this conversation was your shock at the Steam survey results on screen resolution. Though I'm pretty confident that Steam is indicative of PC gaming as a whole. Not many other popular ways of getting PC games these days.

And sneering at those people out there without the money to spend what you have on a PC is not a pleasant look. For plenty, $400 is a lot of money, especially in some countries.

What? There's like a half dozen posts in the last 2 pages of this thread talking about the reliability of Steam surveys... or lack thereof. Barely half of my games I purchased through Steam... and although I have somewhere like 800 hours played across a dozen or so Steam titles I own and I've never once been asked to answer a survey by Steam regarding my hardware.

So 4K gaming has no future because only 4% of Steam gamers surveyed play in 4K? 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣

Ok man... if you say so.

i have used steam for quite a few years now, and i have never been asked to to a survey, sorry, palladin, but it should not be used for any thing more then a peek at what is out there for hardware... and what people use...

im sure im not the only one that has never been asked to do the survey

Me either, I have had 4 systems since utilizing Steam, never got a inquiry.

You don't say!

The Steam survey is overly random and clearly doesn't do anything about statistical outliers otherwise you wouldn't have obvious anomalies happening.

👍

 

[palladin9479]

So 4K gaming has no future because only 4% of Steam gamers surveyed play in 4K?

No future, seems a bit .. extreme.

Back in 2009 1080p was rare, now it's the most common resolution. 6-7 years ago 1440p was also pretty uncommon. These sorts of things change over time and 2160p is growing.

What? There's like a half dozen posts in the last 2 pages of this thread talking about the reliability of Steam surveys... or lack thereof.

Those individuals are confused with how statistics work and prefer to their own feelings and anecdotal experiences over data. Confirmation bias, in-group bias and availability bias tend to skew what people think is average or normal.