News Nvidia Says Native Resolution Gaming is Out, DLSS is Here to Stay

[Elusive Ruse]

Nvidia is vacating the gaming scene and has already moved on to AI and Data Centre solutions, this all aligns with the future of their company its objectives.

 

[rambo919]

I think everyone is missing the big picture here by focusing on the individual tree's.

Their obvious end goal is to push gaming to such a point where the common gamer cannot afford the hardware anymore and will be forced to pay a subscription to a gaming streaming service with the excuse "it's the only real option"..... because at that point they will have nudged it into being the only real option.

Games as a service will exist as a carrot to accept OS as a service. The end goal is dumb terminals where the vendor has complete control over the use of the machine and your files won't be your files anymore you will pay for the privilege of renting them.... the same way games don't really belong to you anymore.

Just think of what win12 is obviously going to be, an OS riddled with AI components functioning as first as DRM sniffers and spyware and later as command and control systems that can potentially alter your files without you knowing it. Right now we have webpages silently disappearing or being edited.... tomorrow it will be your files getting the same treatment. And there will be moral sounding hivemind excuses like "we do not condone exclusion".

The fact that AMD is just going with this in large part shows how at best they are vulnerable or greedy and at worst they are merely controlled opposition. They can EASILY massively undercut nVidia in pricing to make up for the software feature disadvantage.... software features like upscaling are useless if almost no games implement them. But at the same time AMD is infamous for their inability to secure proper driver support due to nVidia constantly poaching their best people. It really has come to the point where people have to on individual level look themselves in the mirror and ask.... is it worth getting the technically better hardware for my use case if it means I am funding my own digital enslavement at the hands of psychopaths who would have no problem with crushing me?

If nothing else.... think twice before falling into the trap of allowing a HW vendor to trick you into using an online login to use basic HW functionality..... because it gives them a creeping hold over you. If you have to log in, THEY control how you use it as well as getting a constant stream of telemetry on your behavior.

 

[rambo919]

 

[Viking2121]

Games as a service will exist as a carrot to accept OS as a service. The end goal is dumb terminals where the vendor has complete control over the use of the machine and your files won't be your files anymore you will pay for the privilege of renting them.... the same way games don't really belong to you anymore.

Since when did you ever own a game that you didn't code and write for? You must be thinking of physical copies, they still wasn't yours, you couldn't go an modify the files on a disk and make it a new game and make money off it, that was still illegal. Partly why Modding is well free for the most part.

 

[rambo919]

Since when did you ever own a game that you didn't code and write for? You must be thinking of physical copies, they still wasn't yours, you couldn't go an modify the files on a disk and make it a new game and make money off it, that was still illegal. Partly why Modding is well free for the most part.

Semantics, owning a copy then. You could keep your copy forever as long as it physically lasted, it would never stop working and no one could take it from you without stealing it. No outside force had any direct control of it.

Now though, the vendor can simply discontinue it or patch it so that parts of it stop working and you have no agency in the matter whatsoever unless you use a pirated copy. If it's a online only game.... then you only have access to it as long as the vendor allows you to.

Even if you get it on physical disc.... it's literally only a pre-download with a game code attached. You feel like you own a copy but you own nothing.... it's an illusion that itself is being discontinued. The whole world is becoming the Apple Store. This has become more apparent to more people recently with the UbiSoft debacles and it's hasty backtracking that dissuades no fears.

People still speak of owning game copies..... because at one point they actually did and it has not caught up to them that this is not true anymore, hence the extraordinary outrage when one of the games they "own" arbitrarily gets taken away from them. Also while technically illegal.... everyone instinctively started off with the assumption that format shifting is their right and this instinct keeps getting reinforced no matter what any lawyer thinks. The constantly shifting threeway fight between natural rights, social rights and legal rights is far from over no matter how strongly the current elite wants to claim perpetual victory the same way the previous one tried.

No matter what legalese you throw at people.... most will never think like corporate lawyers hence the disconnect. Especially with modern laws being so self contradictory and numorous that everyone just ignores most of them in practice anyway even if they know them which most don't. Lawfare dictates that breathing is illegal in some circumstances I am sure.

 

[Colif]

Let them go out of business and take the cult with them.

both sides are pretty cult like.
Pledging allegiance to any company that doesn't know you exist is pretty silly. Same goes for most competitions though... much of it is to prove to themselves they are right.

Native res is dead... just after releasing 4060 that struggles with 1440p when the previous gen 60 card was advertised as 1440p... right... so is this advancing or just camoflage... throw features at people. Ignore rest isn't actually getting any better.

 

[Why_Me]

both sides are pretty cult like.
Pledging allegiance to any company that doesn't know you exist is pretty silly. Same goes for most competitions though... much of it is to prove to themselves they are right.

Native res is dead... just after releasing 4060 that struggles with 1440p when the previous gen 60 card was advertised as 1440p... right... so is this advancing or just camoflage... throw features at people. Ignore rest isn't actually getting any better.

It's not even close. 20 years ago I wouldn't have given any AMD vs Nvidia or AMD vs Intel a thought. When C2D was released it was the beginning of the AMD cult. Back when Tom's was still using the old boards the AMD cult came out of the woodwork telling everyone purchase Bulldozer to help keep AMD alive ... this was back when Intel was eating AMD's lunch. They'd even push that crap on build threads while pushing those threads and extra page or two with their cultist like post. Every time Intel or Nvidia release something new they attempt to tie it into world domination while dumbing down the internet. I'm at the point that I would go on a three day drunk celebration if it was announced tomorrow that AMD is closing shop and taking its cult with them.

 

[bolweval]

It seems to me that game graphics are already more "fantastical" than real life, are real life visuals no longer good enough for us? I think game developers should start making great games instead of making them look more real than real....JMHO

 

[Nick_C]

Remember "Just buy it!", referring to the first RTX cards?

Pepperidge Farm remembers....

 

[zecoeco]

For me personally, I see these upscaling technologies as a universal solution for very much all games to improve gaming experience, because unfortunately there's lack of quality control. Not all games come out optimized well, but instead, developers are always asking for the newest and latest hardware.

Since DLSS is not an open feature to implement in other GPUs (intel & AMD) then its basically anti-comeptitve and anti-consumer to rely only on DLSS & its exclusivity to nVidia's GPUs
However, the bright side is that these upscaling techniques can imporve your gaming experience as an alternative when, for example the game is poorly optimized.

 

[evdjj3j]

If DLSS requires AI training then how did the modders get DLSS working on Starfield?

 

[ohio_buckeye]

Haven’t read through everything here, but I like naive resolution as much as the next guy. However the industry appears to be moving in the direction of upscaling technology. Even amd is coming out with fsr 3 which I think will work with current generation consoles. Once that’s happening you might as well give up the idea of all native resolution because you know developers will be coding for that.

Back in the day they had to release a somewhat competent software product to be on the launch cds. Now they can focus on getting it out the door quickly and patch enough to make things work to where people don’t complain and move on to the next title to try to make more revenue.

From hardware side if you are nvidia or amd this is a win because you can spend less resources developing new gpu technologies and keep building on your software and still see performance improvement. Many of your average people if fps is higher and graphics look a bit better may not ever think about the difference or the underlying technology.

As far as social vs physical, personality I have a gaming pc but recently acquired an Xbox series x. Gotta say graphics are pretty good and I’m playing it a lot more than my gaming pc. I know it’s not quite as fast but I don’t feel like I’m missing a lot.

I do have red dead redemption 2 for the series x, and it installs on your hard drive but you still have to place the disc in, otherwise you get an error about reading the license. So these days your disc seems to be mostly your license showing you have a right to play that game. Actually makes digital a little more convenient tbh.

If you want to see where it’s going, some leaks came out a couple of days ago saying the new Xbox coming out in a few years will look like the a trash can, think mac pro from about 2013, but no disc drive. If those rumors are true that tells you the way the industry is going.

 

[palladin9479]

Remember "Just buy it!", referring to the first RTX cards?

Pepperidge Farm remembers....

The more your buy the more you save!

 

[palladin9479]

Haven’t read through everything here, but I like naive resolution as much as the next guy. However the industry appears to be moving in the direction of upscaling technology. Even amd is coming out with fsr 3 which I think will work with current generation consoles. Once that’s happening you might as well give up the idea of all native resolution because you know developers will be coding for that.

It doesn't work that way, the user sets the resolution and the 4090 can obviously play at ridiculous resolution without DLSS, 4080 too. The industry is not moving towards upscaling technology, it's already been around a long time and is used for many retro ports and is a decent option for budget / low performance systems. NVidia is just gaslighting everyone, and hoping enough True Believers spread the message, into paying high prices for low performance parts. The community at large has had an extremely negative reaction towards the price vs performance of the 40 series, this is just them trying to do damage control.

 

[-Fran-]

They have spent a ton of time and money in research, in order to create a technology that puts them way ahead of the competition. Why would they ever want to throw away such a strategic advantage? Would you do it if you were them?

Yes, because I believe in the betterment of humanity, as naive as that sounds.

It's a moral stance, if you like and I won't deny it. As a selfish believer in Capitalism, I vouch for my own interests and Companies locking down their technologies and blocking others with no recourse to access them is bad for me and my wallet.

It's not a hard concept to grasp and understand.

Plus, Companies have been driving open standards and open source for years. Look at which Companies back the Linux Kernel development. Which ones back the Khronos Group (Vulkan and OGL). There is profit to be had even when you open (fully) your technologies, but it is less if you were to dominate a market and strong arm anyone else trying to get into your market by blocking or pushing exclusivity in it.

In that case open your own wallet to help them fund the research, development, and highly knowledgeable manpower resources to create a new graphic technology.

I do. That is why I often buy from Companies that align to my own moral compass, even if somewhat slightly off at times. I also contribute to open initiatives and create things free of charge for charities and such. I do have a strong moral high ground I'm proud of. I advocate for people to not be lazy and do their part, but alas it almost never works.

Also, and moving on with the topic, look at how many Open Source initiatives Intel and AMD have supported over the years. Most of the Internet is built on open technologies or have a huge amount of openness to them. On the other hand, some of the biggest technological improvements have been thanks to opening certain key technologies or Companies willing to open them up enough so others could take advantage and flourish. You can start by looking at the Khronos group and OpenGL/Vulkan. Look at ARM, for example as a happy middle ground. Leaving the Company management to the side (greed vs financial stability) you can thank them, to a big degree, that Smartphones and wearables are what they are today.

And there's so much more I could add, but I think that's enough to illustrate my point of view on this.

--
As an aside, I do believe upscaling tech is needed for consoles, but I despise the idea there's a future nVidia is vouching for where it will be "needed" and not "optional". Plus, come on people. DLSS is not even supported in old hardware, same with Frame Generation. What the hell? How can people drink the koolaid so easily with zero critical thinking. It is baffling.

Regards.

 

[InvalidError]

I have no interest in wasting silicon and power on fake frame generation until $200 GPUs can do 4k60 native.

 

[rambo919]

I wonder though if part of this is not just a scummy long term move to force gamers to subsidize their AI development costs....

 

[Deleted member 2950210]

I have no interest in wasting silicon and power on fake frame generation until $200 GPUs can do 4k60 native.

If i may ask: what quality presets are we talking about? For example: 4K60 native at - let's say - low to medium quality, for the majority of the games?

 

[rambo919]

A lot of people here are going to struggle to accept reality. I personally run my games with DLDSR 2.25x with DLSS Quality Mode and DLSS Frame Generation when available, and soon along with Ray Reconstruction as well.

Any of you that are complaining about the impact these technologies have on performance need to try running Cyberpunk RT Overdrive at 4K native resolution on 7900XTX. You’ll probably get 5 fps, with very poor RT performance/slow updates since no ray reconstruction.

And here lies the crux of the disconnect I think.... 4K + RTX gaming is a goal that was reached for before the HW could actually fully do it..... and now copium is being thrown at the issue.

If you game at 1080p with no RTX and a budget GPU instead of the top of the line.... suddenly your perspective is more grounded.... and the threat of a lack of rendering at resolution becomes more problematic. See if you render at 1080p and upscale to 4K it does not look so bad.... but if you render at 240p and upscale to 1080p the results can be..... odd. You can end up at a situation where a game engine draws 5 times the power from you PSU than in the past to render a game that looks worse than previous one's.... because you did not pay the bribe to the rendering border guard.

 

[ohio_buckeye]

It doesn't work that way, the user sets the resolution and the 4090 can obviously play at ridiculous resolution without DLSS, 4080 too. The industry is not moving towards upscaling technology, it's already been around a long time and is used for many retro ports and is a decent option for budget / low performance systems. NVidia is just gaslighting everyone, and hoping enough True Believers spread the message, into paying high prices for low performance parts. The community at large has had an extremely negative reaction towards the price vs performance of the 40 series, this is just them trying to do damage control.

Ok true, if you are talking that class of cards they should be able to play at native. How much of the market can afford that level of card? So could be as nvidia wishes to push DLSS, if you have the coin they are more than happy to sell people high end cards and laugh all the way to the bank. Imagine a 5090 at $2000 or a 6090 at $2500. The way the market is going we could get there some day. Don't get me wrong, native for sure has better picture quality than dlss or fsr. But it does show you were they seem to want to go. I definitely can see this being used a lot in consoles and power to mid range cards as then many users think they are or are getting a decent experience for less.

I think pc building is getting to be like the guys that worked on hot rods. It’s for sure something you need to enjoy and have at least a little money and some time to dedicate to it.

 

[edzieba]

Ah yes, we can never accept anything that reduces Big Pixel Count Number.
Except for LOD models reducing model vertex counts, Anisotropic Filtering reducing texture pixel counts, heterogenous deferred shading reducing lighting pixel counts, Z-culling reducing rendered pixel counts, MSAA reducing rendered pixel counts (over SSAA), TSAA and other shader-based AA techniques reducing pixel counts (over MSAA), anisotropic pixels reducing pixel counts (e.g. Wipeout using variable pixel widths to raise and lower per-frame render loads to maintain 60FPS in varying environments), Variable Rate Shading reducing pixel counts dependant on screen content, screen-space reflections reducing rendered pixel counts by just duplicating rendered pixels, probe reflections reducing rendered pixels by just copying from a texture, and so on.
Game engine optimisation is all about finding places where you can outright avoid doing work wherever possible. It's 'cheating' all the way down.

 

[Tac 25]

no, what don't you understand about Nvidia being a monopoly? With AMD gone a 50-tier GPU will be $500 and a 90-tier will be $5000. No, thank you. Without AMD nvidia's market share would increase to 90%+

have to agree with this. I buy Nvidia almost religiously... all three active pc here in the house have an Nvidia gpu attached. But I don't want AMD to go out of business. Nvidia would turn into a monster, and eat people with sky high prices if they have the entire gpu market to themselves.

 

[Order 66]

have to agree with this. I buy Nvidia almost religiously... all three active pc here in the house have an Nvidia gpu attached. But I don't want AMD to go out of business. Nvidia would turn into a monster and eat people with sky high prices if they have the entire gpu market to themselves.

I don't mind if people buy 4090s because it's the only 40 series GPU with a good uplift in performance given the price, but I just don't like the fact that Nvidia's budget GPUs are so overpriced. For example $499 for a 16GB 4060 ti which doesn't even have the GPU horsepower to actually utilize it, no thanks. Not to mention the 4060 ti 8GB which in some games is only like a 10% performance improvement over 3060 ti.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

Ah yes, we can never accept anything that reduces Big Pixel Count Number.
Except for LOD models reducing model vertex counts, Anisotropic Filtering reducing texture pixel counts, heterogenous deferred shading reducing lighting pixel counts, Z-culling reducing rendered pixel counts, MSAA reducing rendered pixel counts (over SSAA), TSAA and other shader-based AA techniques reducing pixel counts (over MSAA), anisotropic pixels reducing pixel counts (e.g. Wipeout using variable pixel widths to raise and lower per-frame render loads to maintain 60FPS in varying environments), Variable Rate Shading reducing pixel counts dependant on screen content, screen-space reflections reducing rendered pixel counts by just duplicating rendered pixels, probe reflections reducing rendered pixels by just copying from a texture, and so on.
Game engine optimisation is all about finding places where you can outright avoid doing work wherever possible. It's 'cheating' all the way down.

This is 100% accurate. It's why I hate the "fake pixels" BS spouted by people as a way to dismiss DLSS and upscaling as a whole. Every pixel rendered is "fake" to varying degrees. And now we have people who think that rasterization looks better than path tracing, because the faked and approximated lighting and everything else that rasterization does is what we're used to.

If you have a good upscaling and sharpening model that looks better than native plus TAA, or at least close enough to be equivalent, then what's the problem? Especially if it boosts performance by 30–50 percent? It's why I almost always play games with DLSS Quality enabled if supported, or FSR2 Quality if DLSS isn't an option. (Unless a game is so lightweight that it doesn't matter and 4K runs at over 100 fps at native.)

TAA is often the worst of the anti-aliasing modes in terms of preserving details. Yeah, it gets rid of jaggies, and a lot of fine textures along with it! But that's the baseline, and while there are ways to make it better (CAS is a good example), we're really talking about trying to do two contrary things: sharpen certain details, don't introduce jaggies and oversharpening.

 

[JarredWaltonGPU]

If DLSS requires AI training then how did the modders get DLSS working on Starfield?

The AI models are now trained on a massive set of inputs, from a bunch of different games and applications.

I believe DLSS 1.x tried to do models on a per-game basis, and Nvidia ultimately abandoned that and went with a more universal algorithm in DLSS 2.x. (Which makes total sense, because the DLSS 1.x approach was untenable!) That doesn't mean DLSS 2 can't benefit from per-game training data — feed it a bunch of Starfield images and it should get better at upscaling Starfield — but I don't believe there's a specific AI network just for Starfield, and another just for Cyberpunk, and another just for Redfall, and so on. They all share a universal network.

So the mod that put DLSS into Starfield uses the base model and nothing else, and it generally looks good. It's not 100% stable AFAIK, there may be some bugs, but for a third party to cram it into the engine in place of FSR2 shows that it's not a very difficult code change.