News Nvidia Taps TSMC's 5nm for RTX 40-Series GPU Architectures

[Endymio]

Can you elaborate on why it is "best" that those willing to pay the highest price get a graphics card? Instead of say, those that are particularly patient/diligent (e.g. continuously monitoring for new stock)

Certainly. Because the desire to acquire sufficient funds for goods and services is the primary factor motivating people to work. And if people don't work, no goods and services are created.

Imagine two worlds, your World A, in which you receive luxury goods for free, but only by spending your days continuous monitoring websites and store fronts to be first in line for new stock; and World B, in which you receive luxury goods only by paying a high price. In which world will people work hard, and increase the overall GDP?

The former Soviet Union (in which I grew up in) was an extreme example of this. The old joke in every office was "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us". You received goods -- if you received them at all -- either by standing countless hours in a queue .... or by dealing with a scalper.

 

[sstanic]

yeah spongie, might be. I only follow EU prices, and here there's been plenty of stock for a good while now, prices are ~2x or more than MSRP at retailers, even the largest ones. but paying 1500-1600€ for a 3080/6800XT is a no go for me, and for many others

also, is it possible that newegg does their shuffle to help their image a bit, in a way, selling x GPUs at y price, while at the same time selling 20x GPUs at 2y? again, apologies but I just don't follow the market in NA, it's just an idea

 

[Wolfshadw]

People, let's keep this civil and without getting personal. State your viewpoint without attacking any other users. If you can't do that, we'll shut it down and issue warnings/bans as necessary.

Wolfshadw
Moderator

 

[watzupken]

Take a deep breath. It'll be all right.

Now, for a little breath of reason. Scalpers don't decrease the overall supply of cards: they actually increase the ability of consumers to purchase products -- if you're willing to pay fair market value. (when "fair" is defined in proper economic terms, not a manufacturer's MSRP.)

As for the ludicrous hyperpole of "climate-destroying cryptocurrency", I'll merely point out that these cards consume electricity whether they're in a miner's rig or in yours. At least in a miner's rig they're doing something arguably more productive than simply generating prety pictures.

Scalpers don't reduce supply is true, but they don't increase the ability of consumers to purchase a card because the cards are all sold at severely marked up prices. When something is priced out of your budget, some may be willing to stretch their budget, while those who can't afford to stretch is don't get it.

Crypto is simply generating some electronic "money" with value define by people's feel good sentiments. Pretty picture is meant to provide entertainment. If you think using electricity for pretty picture is not meaningful, then I suggest you don't use a computer monitor and TV because that's all these devices do.

 

[Endymio]

Scalpers don't reduce supply is true, but they don't increase the ability of consumers to purchase a card because the cards are all sold at severely marked up prices. When something is priced out of your budget, some may be willing to stretch their budget, while those who can't afford to stretch is don't get it.

But some can afford the price. That's the point. Scalpers don't buy cards to not sell them. They set a price that someone is willing to pay. You may not be able to afford the card, but you can't afford that Ferrari either. With scalpers in the picture, high end graphics cards are no different than high end sports cars -- they can be purchased any time you wish, so long as you can afford the price.

Pretty picture is meant to provide entertainment. If you think using electricity for pretty picture is not meaningful, then I suggest you don't use a computer monitor and TV because that's all these devices do.

You're seriously suggesting that computers exist only to provide entertainment?

 

[helper800]

Of course it does. You can purchase all these cards today -- if you're willing to pay fair market price. Without the scalper, your only hope is to win the card lottery.

No, without the scalper we would just be paying less, thats the only difference, your inability to pay for something is effectively the same as it being out of stock. If it were truly a lottery then i would not have been able to line in 6 cards since release for friends and of course, at cost, because I'm not a scummy scalper.

"But some can afford the price. That's the point. Scalpers don't buy cards to not sell them. They set a price that someone is willing to pay. You may not be able to afford the card, but you can't afford that Ferrari either. With scalpers in the picture, high end graphics cards are no different than high end sports cars -- they can be purchased any time you wish, so long as you can afford the price."

So in essence, screw poor people and further create multi-tiered societies those with and without? This line of logic is moraley bankrupt.

 

[escksu]

Very nice if it ever became possible for us average users to buy them. But due to scalpers and climate destroying cryptocurrencies, that’s unfortunately not happening.
Completely idiotic that cryptocurrencies (Tulip buds of our time) are still investment objects. Obviously the rich and the criminals needs a way to move their illegal funds around digitally, but why are banks and millions of people investing in these? Obviously because to much money has been printed in the central banks the last 30 years….. but still…..
The economies of today - based on unbacked printed and loaned funds are A GIGANTIC financial experiment that will fail at some point.

Mod Edit - Language

Haha..... backing and value are just man-made..... Anything has value solely because people believe it has value. Thats all...Backing is something man created....

Gold is nothing more than a lump of metal. Paper money is nothing more than printed paper. Digital forms are nothing more than 1s and 0s.

 

[Conahl]

As for the ludicrous hyperpole of "climate-destroying cryptocurrency", I'll merely point out that these cards consume electricity whether they're in a miner's rig or in yours. At least in a miner's rig they're doing something arguably more productive than simply generating prety pictures.

too bad, in the hands of miners,. these cards are consuming quite a bit more electicity then they would be if they were used playing games, as for mining they are being run full bore 24/7, not the 8-12 hrs a day playing games. not to mention, they are not just running 1 card, they are running 3, 4, 5+ of them at once. if using that much power is " more productive " then being used when playing a game, then just wow.

Of course it does. You can purchase all these cards today -- if you're willing to pay fair market price.

one problem with this line of thinking, the prices scalpers charge, are NOT fair market prices. they are the scalpers profit margin over what was paid from the store. which is 2-3 times that price, in what world is this fair market value ? the stores prices is more fair market value then anything, even though, currently, its well above MSRP.

Without the scalper, your only hope is to win the card lottery.

wrong, with out the scalpers, most would actually be able to buy these cards from the store, and their over priced prices. instead of the 2-3 times the price the scalpers are charging.

 

[Endymio]

the prices scalpers charge, are NOT fair market prices.

Certainly they are, when you properly define "fair market value" on economic terms. This is the price that balances supply with demand.

Buyers always want a lower price; sellers always want a higher price. "Fair" in these unilateral terms is essentially meaningless; only the econmic definition has independent meaning. This fair market price is also the most beneficial, as any price lower than this generates shortages; any pricer higher creates unsold surpluses.

with out the scalpers, most would actually be able to buy these cards from the store

I'm sure you don't actually believe that. The entire reason scalping exists for these cards is that far more people wish to buy them than can be produced. Or, more accurate more people wish to buy them when priced at MSRP. When their price is raised to twice or triple MSRP, then demand drops to a point that equals supply.

if using that much power is " more productive " then being used when playing a game, then just wow.

A mind-blowing concept, is it not? Using energy to produce a new car, a new home, to run a medical diagnostic test or generate digital currency -- all these create value and are thus productive. Using electricity to generate pretty frames in your first-person shooter, however, does not.

 

[Endymio]

Haha..... backing and value are just man-made..... Anything has value solely because people believe it has value....Gold is nothing more than a lump of metal. Paper money is nothing more than printed paper. Digital forms are nothing more than 1s and 0s.

Two problems with your statement. First, you are admitting that crypto currency is essentially equivalent to traditional "printed paper". Secondly, gold is not simply "a lump of metal". It is an extremely rare metal with highly desireably properties, properties which give it value regardless of whether or not it was regarded as a medium of exchange.

 

[Endymio]

So in essence, screw poor people and further create multi-tiered societies those with and without? This line of logic is moraley bankrupt.

So you believe poor people are being "screwed" by their inability to avoid Geforce 3090s and Ferrari Spyders? And anyone who believes otherwise is morally bankrupt? What do you propose as penalty for my line of logic? Ten years or so in a Siberian gulag?

 

[drivinfast247]

Out of stock already...

I got a few for sale. $5000 each.

 

[Batweasel]

Certainly they are, when you properly define "fair market value" on economic terms.

This, of course, is the flaw in the argument (my highlight).

Economics is bunkum, so using economics definitions makes the argument bunkum. When an argument requires that terms be redefined for it to seem valid, that argument is clearly invalid.

This is why economists have to tie themselves (and their arguments) in silly knots. If economics wasn't bunkum, we wouldn't have recessions.

 

[deshimaru]

Yes. I do believe you're starting to get it. And why is this true? Because, the scalper only makes a profit if the product sells. If no one can afford it, the scalper must lower his price.

Scalpers, moreso than perhaps any other merchant, are thus continually adjusting their price to find that optimum value, the value that perfectly balances their supply against available demand.

It is possible to artificially create a scarcity of one product by over stoking this product. Later you release this product by trickle at a much higher price. This is what happened in the last two years. They took advantage of the high demand coming from the mining.

Mod Edit - Again people, keep it civil!

 

[Endymio]

Economics is bunkum, so using economics definitions makes the argument bunkum. When an argument requires that terms be redefined

No. It requires the term "fair market value" to be defined, not redefined. Without this definition, the term has no meaning whatsoever. The buyer wants the lowest possible price, the seller the highest possible price. Which one of you is being "fair" and which unfair?

If economics wasn't bunkum, we wouldn't have recessions.

Interesting. Do you also believe we only have earthquakes because geology is bunkum? And how do you explain the fact that recessions occurred long before the study of economics even began?

 

[LolaGT]

Wow.
Miners have the right(?) to a product the same as anyone else, doesn't matter. If someone wants to buy a 3080 and just set it in a window to look at it, it is as valid as any other use if they enjoy doing that.
If and when anti-crypto zealots get up the same angst for energy conservation and fossil fuel use in general they would have more credibility. But the argument is basically "as long as it is for what I like, it is okay"

Regardless, this 4000 series GPU discussion is not even newsworthy until the day production meets demand.

 

[gamerk316]

Certainly they are, when you properly define "fair market value" on economic terms. This is the price that balances supply with demand.

Except, no. Your argument falls flat for a number or reasons. Let's go through them:

1: You are arguing, essentially, that Price is determined strictly as the intersection between Supply and Demand. If that were the case, then you would expect the Supply of available GPUs to be hovering around zero, with incoming stock sold to end users almost as fast as they come in. But that isn't what we are observing in the market. What we observe is almost all incoming stock being sold to what are essentially resellers attempting to resell at a higher price. The fact those products are consistently available for sale in large quantities is a pretty good economic indication that prices are set too high.

2: Your other argument is that re-sellers increase Supply by, essentially, pricing out most of the market making the product available for the people who really wan them. Which again falls flat on it's face when you consider that GPU shortages were more or less never a thing we observed before now (putting aside the initial release rush you would expect for a new product launch).

3: A simple thought experiment shows the fallacy of your arguments. The manufacturer or a product releases a product for sale at a price it determines will maximize profits versus the expected demand for that product. Some other entity (Entity A) decides they can turn a higher profit by purchasing the entire stock and re-selling at a higher price. Now, some other entity (Entity B) decides they can turn an even HIGHER profit by purchasing the entire stock off Entity A and selling at a higher price. This continues until no other Entity believes they can sell to end users at a higher price, leaving one Entity in control of all Supply, and because they control all Supply they can set the Price to whatever they so desire. Over a long period, this entity will eventually sell that Supply at higher-then-market prices, as enough people will eventually cave as there is no viable supply of the product elsewhere.

In essence, Scalpers are not "providing supply", they are restricting it. In theory, yes, Price = Supply/Demand, but only in a competitive market. Without competition to allow prices to normalize, Prices will rise beyond what the market would otherwise justify. Scalpers take this even farther by restricting Supply in order to remove Price competition, "justifying" their higher then market supporting pricing. And as I noted above, given that Scalpers have not been able to sell all their products at higher prices, and given that lower pricing has never caused sustained GPU shortages before, it is reasonable to conclude that the current market rate for GPUs is unreasonable and unjustified.

 

[helper800]

So you believe poor people are being "screwed" by their inability to avoid Geforce 3090s and Ferrari Spyders? And anyone who believes otherwise is morally bankrupt? What do you propose as penalty for my line of logic? Ten years or so in a Siberian gulag?

I believe poor people are being screwed because their opportunity to get a modern GPU for less than 600-900 dollars has become severely diminished by scalpers. I do not advocate for punishing poor lines of logic just, as we are having now, try to introduce ideas in a contemplative manner and maybe change perspective. My expectation of changing anyone's mind on their own opinions is 0. I also would never advocate for mind control.

Famous quote, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Evelyn Beatrice Hall

 

[Endymio]

1: You are arguing, essentially, that Price is determined strictly as the intersection between Supply and Demand.

Lol, no, I'm arguing nothing of the sort. I'm stating the economic definition of fair market value . The actual price of any good or service may be higher or lower than this, depending on any number of factors. If you don't understand the argument, you cannot counter it.

2: Your other argument is that re-sellers increase Supply ...

Given I said exactly the opposite of this, I don't know why you would think that. I'll repeat my past statement: resellers don't magically increase supply. If they price a product closer to its actual fair market value, then they increase availability. That's a far different statement.

 

[Endymio]

I believe poor people are being screwed because their opportunity to get a modern GPU for less than 600-900 dollars has become severely diminished

So the entire world's poor deserves a $600-$900 GPU? Interesting. Do you believe they deserve Ferraris and 20-room mansions as well?

You may not realize this, but economics is the study of the problem of scarcity. Resources are limited. At present, much of the world's poor doesn't even have access to clean water, and you wish to gift them all high-end gaming rigs?

 

[Friesiansam]

You can purchase all these cards today -- if you're willing to pay fair market price. Without the scalper, your only hope is to win the card lottery.

The only people, apart from lunatics, that believe the scalper's prices are a "fair market price", are the scalpers themselves.

 

[helper800]

So the entire world's poor deserves a $600-$900 GPU? Interesting. Do you believe they deserve Ferraris and 20-room mansions as well?

You may not realize this, but economics is the study of the problem of scarcity. Resources are limited. At present, much of the world's poor doesn't even have access to clean water, and you wish to gift them all high-end gaming rigs?

No, I believe that poorer people deserve the ability to work up to buying a modern GPU at MSRP and not an artificially created market price. The entire world would not be having to spend 600 dollars on an arguably already overpriced at MSRP card for entry to mid level performance. Never in the history of consumer graphics cards has the barrier to entry vs. peoples income ratio been so disparaged. You can easily look at prior generation cards prices to see what is going on. Did the 1650 -1660S have 300-550 dollar's performance on release? No. It was priced accordingly at 200-260 dollars. Now years after their initial release their value has risen, not because their performance has changed, but because their value proposition vs. the artificially inflated prices of available current generation cards. "Rising tides lift all boats," is a saying that can never be truer, except in this case its graphics card prices caused by thousands of individual people, or companies, with sun lamps on the ice caps via obtaining a disproportionate amount the of card's supplies.

 

[Conahl]

Certainly they are,

no they are not. scalper prices are in no way " fair market value ". the prices they charge, that are again 2 to 3 times msrp are a blantent rip off. plain and simple. the ones that pay those prices, to be blunt, have more money then brains. i can afford those prices, but i wont buy them at the scalper price, for that fact, its a rip off.

I'm sure you don't actually believe that.

actually i do. if it wasnt for the rip off scalpers buying these cards, i would be able to go into a store and buy them at a slightly more reasonable price then the rip off the scalper is charging. scalpers are doing nothing for increasing the availability of these cards. they are doing it for one reason, profit.

The entire reason scalping exists for these cards is that far more people wish to buy them than can be produced.

wrong, the entire reason scalping exisits, is for profit. thats all. again, if there was no scalpers, these cards would be in stores, not on ebay for 2 to 3 times the price the stores charge. sorry to say, but they way you are defending scalpers, makes me wonder, if you are one your self.

 

[sstanic]

oh, we're still here then. so, it seems that the discussion can be reduced to a single question:

would there be any shortages at ~MSRP or not? if yes, for which cards, and for how long?

personally, I believe that nvidia could satisfy the market for a 3080 priced at 800-900 in a year, and without much problem either. temporary low stock yes, but not for 14 months and going.

it's a genuine question, and I hope to get some info.

 

[Endymio]

the entire reason scalping exisits, is for profit. thats all.

The "entire reason" NVidia and AMD produces GPUs is for profit. The only reason AIB manufacturers make graphics cards for you to purchase is for profit. The reason you have a car, a home, food on your table, and can find someone to cut your hair and walk your dog is for profit. And the only reason you get up and go to work every morning is for your own profit. What's your point?

scalper prices are in no way " fair market value ". the prices they charge, that are again 2 to 3 times msrp are a blantent [sic] rip off.

The value of a product is what it will bring on an open market. The manufacturer's "suggested" retail price is the fiction here, not the fair market value.. You cannot discuss these terms until you define them. "Fair", to you, seems to mean no more than a vague desire to pay as little as possible.

if it wasnt for the rip off scalpers buying these cards, i would be able to go into a store and buy them

False, of course. At MSRP, far more people wish to buy these cards than can be produced at present. That's why the shortage exists in the first place. And that's why graphics cards -- and only a few other consumers items -- are being scalped at present, whereas millions of other consumer goods are not.

Scalping exists ONLY when a shortage exist. And shortages are, now and always, the result of prices being set too low. When prices are allowed to float to FMV, neither shortages nor overages occur.