News Nvidia Taps TSMC's 5nm for RTX 40-Series GPU Architectures

[helper800]

If I could go into Best Buy and get a RTX 3xxx series (or AMD 5xxx or 6xxx) GPU I would. But I can't - they have no stock. ZERO stock. That is not because the scalpers bought all of BB's stock - BB has in-store limits. It is because BB can't get enough cards to have stock. That is because there is not enough supply and too much demand. Best Buy does not charge "scalper prices". BB simply cannot get enough stock from its suppliers.

So what can I do if I want to buy a GPU at a 'reasonable price'? 1) Join Newegg lottery 2) Wait for product drop from BB (stand in line) 3) Hope I get lucky on Amazon by mashing refresh? 4) Join a waiting list? 5) Buy a pre-built and "shuck" that GPU. All of those take time/effort. Hitting "Buy it Now" on Ebay is easy. And No - I would never pay these ridiculous prices that scalpers are charging on Ebay. But there are people who are willing to pay for the convenience of not having to do 1-5 above. That is why they are willing to pay those prices.

Scalpers are essentially holding people who want a card hostage. Scalpers are holding up stock that could otherwise alleviate an unknown amount of the demand which would decrease prices, that's a fact. The only argument is by how much.

 

[spongiemaster]

No brained people would surly pay double for a card, then recoup their monetary cost differential via mining at the behest and cost of future generations, voiding their warranty, shortening the life of their card by 70%, and creating e-waste because nobody with a brain buys an old mined on card 2-3 years after it comes out. This is also disregarding any actual controversy of the value in the e-coin industry to begin with.

-Seriously? Every time you buy or do something you factor in the cost to future generations before making a final decision? Anyone who doesn't has no brains? Do some of you realize how ridiculous these arguments are?
-Mining does not void your warranty.
-Mining can increase the lifespan of your GPU and make it last longer. I don't have any reliable data to back that up, but neither do you for the 70% number you pulled out of thin air. A number, mind you, that would vary depending on the length of time you're actually mining.
-Most people will never sell an old GPU. Those that do aren't going to list them as being mined on.

 

[DougMcC]

Very nice if it ever became possible for us average users to buy them. But due to scalpers and climate destroying cryptocurrencies, that’s unfortunately not happening.
Completely idiotic that cryptocurrencies (Tulip buds of our time) are still investment objects. Obviously the rich and the criminals needs a way to move their illegal funds around digitally, but why are banks and millions of people investing in these? Obviously because to much money has been printed in the central banks the last 30 years….. but still…..
The economies of today - based on unbacked printed and loaned funds are A GIGANTIC financial experiment that will fail at some point.

Mod Edit - Language

US Dollar has been an unbacked currency for almost 90 years, roughly 3 generations have never known the gold standard. If fiat currency were doomed to collapse, it would have happened by now. Economic stability actually has a better record with fiat than gold backed!

 

[larkspur]

Scalpers are essentially holding people who want a card hostage. Scalpers are holding up stock that could otherwise alleviate an unknown amount of the demand which would decrease prices, that's a fact. The only argument is by how much.

But they are selling the cards - you can actually see the cards being sold on Ebay. There is historical data to prove this. The cards are still getting into the hands of people who pay for them. Where is this evidence of hoarding? Can you show a real example of this? Are these people billionaires with teams of supply-reps that are outmaneuvering Newegg, BB, Amazon, etc? Are you suggesting that they are so sophisticated and have so much buying-power that they are actually beating the largest retailers in the world at their own game? Amazon can't keep stock and they are one of the most sophisticated etailers in the world - you honestly think scalpers are better at the retail game than Amazon? Or is it a conspiracy with the AiB partners that are specifically selling huge quantities of these GPUs directly to these giant scalping firms while snubbing Amazon? It's none of these! Its a supply and demand issue that is being exploited by every single retailer on the planet including scalpers...

 

[helper800]

-Seriously? Every time you buy or do something you factor in the cost to future generations before making a final decision? Anyone who doesn't has no brains? Do some of you realize how ridiculous these arguments are?
-Mining does not void your warranty.
-Mining can increase the lifespan of your GPU and make it last longer. I don't have any reliable data to back that up, but neither do you for the 70% number you pulled out of thin air. A number, mind you, that would vary depending on the length of time you're actually mining.
-Most people will never sell an old GPU. Those that do aren't going to list them as being mined on.

Seriously, yes, I consider the impact of the things I buy. If there is an alternative more sustainable product I generally choose that product. I said that people "who do..." and then listed a number of things to qualify that set of conditions as having no brains. Just because my arguments seem ridiculous, does not mean they are false. You are on the cusp of potentially learning something new.
-Mining "can" void your warranty, I should have specified.
-Mining almost assuredly reduces a significant amount of a cards foreseeable lifespan, this is common knowledge through electromigration, repeated expansion and contraction of different materials to due use. Logically more use equates to more wear.
-Most miners definitely sell their cards, and most that do so know they are selling a damaged or vastly worn out product. This is a common scam and a majority of the time you do not get your money back.

 

[helper800]

[1] But they are selling the cards - you can actually see the cards being sold on Ebay. There is historical data to prove this. The cards are still getting into the hands of people who pay for them.
[2] Where is this evidence of hoarding?
[3] Can you show a real example of this?
[4] Are these people billionaires with teams of supply-reps that are outmaneuvering Newegg, BB, Amazon, etc?
[5] Are you suggesting that they are so sophisticated and have so much buying-power that they are actually beating the largest retailers in the world at their own game?
[6] Amazon can't keep stock and they are one of the most sophisticated etailers in the world - you honestly think scalpers are better at the retail game than Amazon?
[7] Or is it a conspiracy with the AiB partners that are specifically selling huge quantities of these GPUs directly to these giant scalping firms while snubbing Amazon?
[8] It's none of these! Its a supply and demand issue that is being exploited by every single retailer on the planet including scalpers...

1. Yes, people sell things on ebay and the people buying them are receiving what they are buying. This is a fact I never disputed.
2. The evidence of hoarding is in the many tweets from people who use and make botting software. They have massive discord channels where they brag and post images of orders for 10's of cards at a time.
3. I personally will not put more time into showing you examples of this past telling you what you need to know to google it yourself.
4. This is a rhetorical question, but no.
5. Same as line 4.
6. I never suggested that scalpers are getting cards ahead of any retailer. I specifically stated they were getting their supply through retailers.
7. Again, same as 4.
8. Are you done beating your strawman to death? No, its a scalper problem that retailers freely let exist, minus a few retailers.

 

[larkspur]

1. Yes, people sell things on ebay and the people buying them are receiving what they are buying. This is a fact I never disputed.
2. The evidence of hoarding is in the many tweets from people who use and make botting software. They have massive discord channels where they brag and post images of orders for 10's of cards at a time.
3. I personally will not put more time into showing you examples of this past telling you what you need to know to google it yourself.
4. This is a rhetorical question, but no.
5. Same as line 4.
6. I never suggested that scalpers are getting cards ahead of any retailer. I specifically stated they were getting their supply through retailers.
7. Again, same as 4.
8. Are you done beating your strawman to death? No, its a scalper problem that retailers freely let exist, minus a few retailers.

Scalping is a symptom of a supply-demand problem. It is not the cause of it.

 

[helper800]

Scalping is a symptom of a supply-demand problem. It is not the cause of it.

Scalping is a problem born of perceived supply constraints, not actual supply constraints, and then becomes a self-interested purveyor of it that is financially inclined to extend such a market. The problem born of a potential issue grows to become a substantial cause of it, thus extending it.

 

[larkspur]

Scalping is a problem born of perceived supply constraints, not actual supply constraints, and then becomes a self-interested purveyor of it that is financially inclined to extend such a market. The problem born of a potential issue grows to become a substantial cause of it, thus extending it.

There are actual supply constraints. It is a known issue. Scalpers always appear when there are supply constraints. And yes, they appear when there are perceived supply constraints too. But they disappear very quickly when such perceptions prove false. Or they disappear when supply satisfies demand.

In early 2020 there was indeed a supply issue with face masks. Scalpers appeared. Scalpers did not cause the supply-demand issue with face masks but they did exploit it. Now there is no issue with face mask supply (at least where I live) - and scalpers are no longer selling masks. Ample supply is anathema to scalpers. We are far from having ample supply of new GPUs. Look at the used GPU market - it has NEVER been like it is. This is directly related to a lack of supply of new graphics cards. Or do you think that scalpers are buying up all the used GPUs too?

 

[Endymio]

, while it's obvious that there will be cases where it's exactly like you say. when EU and others introduced legal efforts against scalping, more was involved than the basic argument from economic theory you present here.

The impetus behind those European actions is, as in the US, a simple bowing to public pressure. Such well-meaning legislative efforts are, in the words of Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Freidman, "result in almost exactly the opposite effect as what is intended".

I can't speak to the specific concert to which you allude, but in the past decade I've been to countless concerts and performances, along with one World Series and one Superbowl. The most heavily-scalped events were in general the ones best attended. Empty seats always exist, despite a promoter's best efforts. The problem is particularly bad in sporting events that give priority ticketing to certain classes of customers (long-term season-ticket holders, for example.) I've been to games in 40,000-seat stadiums in which less than one seat in ten were filled. Needless to say, no scalpers were buying those tickets. It's clear that banning secondary ticket sales, in an attempt to prevent scalping, actually reduces event attendance. People buy tickets weeks or even months in advance, plans and desires change, unexpected events come up. Reselling a ticket allows it to go to a person who will actually use it.

Now, it's all well and good to pass a law allowing resell, but only at the original purchase price, but for most of us, it simply isn't worth the time and effort to resell a pair of $50 tickets. If those tickets are in high demand, though, the motivation to resell increases. End result: more attendance. Remember that a scalper who purchases a ticket and fails to resell it, loses money on the transaction. That puts strong pressure on them to reduce prices as the event time nears, if they hold large blocks of unsold tickets.

many things have been tried, only one or two tickets per buyer, Wimbledon has a shuffle for example, names on the tickets etc to fight the situation. eventually legal efforts gave some fruit.

Very little fruit, and sour, I'm sure. I doubt there's a single large event in Europe in which scalped tickets don't exist. Try as legislators might, they can't repeal the laws of economics.

while it's so very cool that you're eloquent and smart...

Thank you. I also dance like Fred Astaire.

 

[Endymio]

Scalpers are essentially holding people who want a card hostage.

That Ferrari dealer down the street is holding me hostage, too, for that 2021 Portofino he has on display. How dare he! Doesn't he realize my juvenile desire for that vehicle entitle me to have it, despite the $250K price tag?

 

[King_V]

Could anyone defend this "free market at all costs" and "price gougers are GOOD" mentality if we were talking about food?

Let's say that, instead of GPUs, it was food that powered cryptomining - and the usage would be such that it required burning/destroying/whatever food in order to produce cryptocurrency.

It's the same basic concept. A more extreme example, to be sure, but it's the SAME concept.

 

[Endymio]

Could anyone defend this "free market at all costs" and "price gougers are GOOD" mentality if we were talking about food?

A nice, diversion -- but we're talking about luxury consumer goods, not food. You're not going to starve to death if you don't get your next l33t graphics card, as much as you might believe you will, and crypto miners are not condemning millions of poor third-world children to malnutrition.

 

[King_V]

A nice evasion.

You feel no qualms about equating getting a video card to getting a Ferrari. You also had no qualms about creating the strawman argument that people think EVERYONE should be able to get a GPU. Nobody made THAT argument.

So, answer my question: if it were food, would you be so cavalier with the whole "scalpers make the world better" attitude?

 

[Endymio]

You feel no qualms about equating getting a video card to getting a Ferrari.

Of course not. Both are luxury consumer goods; neither is a requirement to survive. Food calories, however, are. Note the rather sharp distinction?

You also had no qualms about creating the strawman argument that people think EVERYONE should be able to get a GPU. Nobody made THAT argument.

Scroll up. Helper800 bemoaned the inability of the world's poor to afford $600-$900 modern GPUs.

 

[BeedooX]

Oooh what an interesting read.

My take away is that extortion and exploitation are fine, so long as there are people willing to be extorted and exploited.

 

[sstanic]

@Endymio

"impetus behind those European actions is, as in the US, a simple bowing to public pressure" - irrelevant argument, welcome to democracy.

"Such well-meaning legislative efforts are, in the words of Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Freidman, "result in almost exactly the opposite effect as what is intended" " and "Very little fruit, and sour, I'm sure. " - no, effects are substantial actually, and have been for several years now. the resale website has been fined, large amounts, and there are further legal actions pending in several EU member states, and the UK, and on several various fronts. CMA is involved in the UK as it's a London based company. their whole practice has been severely limited, almost killed really.

again, it's irrelevant what you or Friedman or anybody say "in theory", the real world doesn't always agree. organisers' websites selling tickets now offer easy resell function, and I've done it once already, it was super easy, just a click or two, sold, money back on the credit card.

"a scalper who purchases a ticket and fails to resell it, loses money on the transaction. That puts strong pressure on them to reduce prices as the event time nears, if they hold large blocks of unsold tickets." - actually no, that's not what happens in real life, as scalpers (used to) buy huge amount of tickets, and then sell them artificially limiting supply and inflating prices extraordinarily, so they'd easily make more than BEP, and since their profits graph doesn't look like a simple x, where supply and demand meet, they can easily be better off with half the tickets in the rubbish bin. again, welcome to the real world.

again, if you visit nike.com, you'll see that although they can make "indefinite" number of "fashion item xy" they don't, and if you like something it'll sell out quickly. crippling supply enables nike to put a huge profit margin, it's not that they ran out of petroleum/plastics while making a jacket.

"Helper800 bemoaned the inability of the world's poor to afford $600-$900 modern GPUs" - no, you added "the world" to the mix. initial expression was "poor", and you pushed it out of its intended context only to invalidate their argument.

by comparing a graphics card to a new Ferrari you're just evading an argument by running to the extreme. gaming and graphics cards, which are also used to decode video if you watch netflix, used by video, photo and 3D editing software etc, are part of popular culture, just like consoles or a TV. much more than a nintendo gameboy was when I was a kid.

by investing in them, masses of people, not only the blessed billionaires, invest huge aggregate sums into further development of both technology and shows, games etc and everybody is aware of that, not just Milton Friedman or myself, just like huge investments by masses across continents in the past 15 years improved smartphones immensely.

they are in no way a luxury good, as you try to force the definition into the extreme several times. also most gaming, particularly FPS, has been recognized by neuroscience as good for our brains, to put it as short as I can, both in youth and when in age related decline.

there are professions that require employees to game a bit, and that provide equipment, and I know people who game just like that, while on the workplace. as part of popular culture they are also part of education and growing up, something that luxury goods don't have to be, and will in most cases be called "negative influence" by psychology, neuroscience and pedagogy. such as a gift of a new Ferrari for 18th birthday, or a new jet plane for finishing university, or a $40,000 dress for prom night.

 

[kal326]

Of course it does. You can purchase all these cards today -- if you're willing to pay fair market price. Without the scalper, your only hope is to win the card lottery.

Without the scalper sitting on inventory they have acquired via automated or other means there would be more supply in the primary channels. All scalpers do is artificially increase demand for which they have no intention of consuming. Not sure how you are getting this idea that they are doing us all a favor. The only reason they aren’t immediately selling every unit they have is they are on the fringe of the demand curve.

 

[Endymio]

you visit nike.com, you'll see that although they can make "indefinite" number of "fashion item xy" they don't,

Entirely different situation. Nike produces sneakers; it doesn't resell sneakers. That gives them the ability to control supply, power neither a scalper nor traditional reseller has. And Nike, like every other producer on the planet, only produces a finite number of any good. Typically, basic microeconomic analysis says firms do this when marginal cost equals marginal revenue, but especially in the case of a low-volume product produced by a large company like Nike, other considerations may come into play (PR benefits, goodwill estimates, etc.).

gaming and graphics cards, which are also used to decode video if you watch netflix, used by video, photo and 3D editing software

And you can use a Ferrari as a daily driver for your commute to work. What's your point? These video cards didn't even exist two years ago; no graphics designer is going to get fired if they don't have this card. Furthermore, your argument is even further off base because it is exactly people like this -- who benefit the most from these faster cards -- who are willing to pay extremely high prices for them. Scalpers act to ensure cards go to those who need them the most. Without the scalpers, such cards go to -- as you yourself suggested -- only those lucky enough to win a lottery.

graphics cards .... are in no way a luxury good

Graphics cards in general? No. The latest 3000-series from NVidia or AMD's Radeon RX? They most certainly are luxury consumer products. Not even AMD or NVidia would dispute that.

welcome to democracy.

I live in a republic, actually. And even in a so-called pure democracy, laws exist which prevent the majority from doing whatever they wish. If 51% of the people in your country wish to sell you into slavery because of the color of your skin, does democracy allow that?

More to the point, no sane democracy wishes to pass laws that have the opposite effect of what is intended, laws baneful to the public good. Anti-scalping laws are, just like minimum-wage legislation, harmful to those they're most intended to benefit.

 

[Timmy!]

And your professors are rolling over in their graves now, certainly. When I taught college courses, there were always students you couldn't make see the noses at the ends of their faces as well. You learn to live with it eventually, but it still remains galling.

No, the scalper doesn't magically create new units and increase overall supply. Read again what I said: this time carefully. Scalpers increase the availability of products. Each and every one of these cards you are bemoaning the 'unavailability' of is available for purchase. Right now. You can purchase any of them you wish. Without the scalper, this would not be true. Those cards would be perpetually unavailable.

It seems to me that both sides of this argument are ignoring a key point in this topic. Endymio's position looks like being "Nothing to see here. Move on.". Even though I'm not remotely qualified in economics, I'll give my take on this situation, adding the issue that is being ignored by both sides, it seems.

There is a scarcity of a product (GPUs) because of manufacturing and delivery issues. Since the product is wanted, prices are increasing. At the moment we can ignore any notion of this scarcity being contrived or being due to cartel behaviour, which, if it was the case, intervention would be required.

Maybe Endymio's position could be characterised as laissez-faire, as in they see no need for any intervention, be it by governments or manufacturers or retailers etc. Here's the problem with both sides of the argument, from what I've seen on the discussion thread of this article: there's an assumption that the market is fair. I don't think so. Does everybody have equal access to the product? By that I mean people who ordinarily would have the access and ability to purchase the product. There is currently a privileged class of purchasers who are able to have unfair access to this product at the lowest cost and then are able to onsell this product due to the demand for it, at a much higher price. Where can I get in on that action? That privileged class of purchasers is the set of people utilising bots to beat the ordinary competitor purchaser to the product.

Remedies? Well, I think that this is a consumer rights issue, so government bodies dealing in this should regulate this behaviour if retailers etc aren't. If this behaviour was occurring in the selling of medicine, I'm sure that everybody would be jumping over each other to clamp down on this.

Another aspect to this is that this privileged class engaging in this behaviour is made up speculators. Again, imagine if speculators were buying up large quantities of necessary medicine on the assumption that those desperate for it would pay much more for the product...no government or society would tolerate that, would they? So, why have exemptions to fair trading, like that for GPUs?

My position is that the current GPU situation is an unfair market. Having said that, if you excluded the speculators and those with access to advantageous technology like bots from entering this market, there would still no doubt be higher prices for the product. That's because what I said at the start....scarcity of the product and high demand for it. However, if you excluded those two classes of purchaser, hopefully the excesses of the price-gouging would be diminished.

 

[Endymio]

However, if you excluded those two classes of purchaser, hopefully the excesses of the price-gouging would be diminished.

Exactly so. Diminished, but not eliminated. In fact, there is a mathematical relationship between the percentage of total supply being "scalped", and the divergence of the resultant pricing from FMV (fair market value). If scalpers resell 100% of the total supply, they're only able to charge FMV, not more. But the more that percentage decreases, the higher the price they're able to extract, as their market becomes an ever-decreasing upper slice of a Gaussian distribution.

This is the primary reason why price controls (either government-imposed, or, in the current instance of graphics cards, self-imposed by the manufacturer) are always harmful. If AMD , NVidia, and their AIB partners raised prices to reflect market reality, the price required to eliminate shortages and scalping would be significantly less than the price scalpers are able to demand.

 

[King_V]

Of course not. Both are luxury consumer goods; neither is a requirement to survive. Food calories, however, are. Note the rather sharp distinction?

Scroll up. Helper800 bemoaned the inability of the world's poor to afford $600-$900 modern GPUs.

sstanic addressed how you're being deceptive with both of these complaints. The "poor" does not encompass the destitute. I don't think it requires a whole lot of thinking here to say "people who could normally manage to afford such things, and now are being shut out of it entirely."

You also are arbitrarily, just for the sake of your own point, equating anything not strictly a necessity as a "luxury."

Are you part of that group of politicians that think cellphones are an unnecessary luxury? Try getting by in today's world without one. Likewise with regard to internet access.


You're still insisting on lionizing a system by which some people who would normally have access to a product be shut out of such access, because their socioeconomic status is not high enough to satisfy your dogmatic beliefs. You are still insisting that scalpers help supply and add value.

The first is reprehensible. The second is utterly false, no matter how you try to defend it, and you have, in multiple pages, tried, and failed, to prove that scalpers increase availability.

Your insistence otherwise in the face of facts is nothing more than zealotry. A monomaniacal hyperfocus on a specific economic belief that fails to pass even the most rudimentary examination.

 

[spongiemaster]

The second is utterly false, no matter how you try to defend it, and you have, in multiple pages, tried, and failed, to prove that scalpers increase availability.

What he is saying is that scalpers increase availability to people who are willing to pay more or have to have a card immediately, which is true. If there weren't scalpers, and you could only buy from retailers at MSRP, most people would never be able to buy a gpu. Who's got time to be constantly checking online retailers and hoping to get lucky and be on the right model page just when a restock occurs? If you're not willing to pay more than MSRP, than you are unlikely to get a card with or without scalpers. If you don't have a problem paying 2x+ MSRP or you just have to have a card for something work related, you can go purchase almost any GPU model you want at any time you want from ebay from a scalper. So, that is increased availability.

 

[helper800]

What he is saying is that scalpers increase availability to people who are willing to pay more or have to have a card immediately, which is true. If there weren't scalpers, and you could only buy from retailers at MSRP, most people would never be able to buy a gpu. Who's got time to be constantly checking online retailers and hoping to get lucky and be on the right model page just when a restock occurs? If you're not willing to pay more than MSRP, than you are unlikely to get a card with or without scalpers. If you don't have a problem paying 2x+ MSRP or you just have to have a card for something work related, you can go purchase almost any GPU model you want at any time you want from ebay from a scalper. So, that is increased availability.

The availability of the supply is the same, the scalpers are not adding cards to the supply, they are removing from it to create their own class of "avaliability." They are simply taking an unknown amount of the supply and charging so much for it that non-10%ers cannot afford it. Who is to say that if scalpers did not get ahold of so many cards around the world there would not be a significantly higher chance to get them through ordinary means? When the gtx 900 series came out there was more demand than supply, however there was not a significant amount of scalpers and I was able to regularly find stock during odd times or in brick and mortor stores. The main issue is that there is no answer because the numbers do not exist. Can we agree that scalpers could be potentially siphoning off enough supply that getting a card through normal means has been affected? I would not be surprised that 5-15% of all 6000 and 3000 cards are being scalped by private individuals or small groups.

 

[King_V]

What he is saying is that scalpers increase availability to people who are willing to pay more or have to have a card immediately, which is true. If there weren't scalpers, and you could only buy from retailers at MSRP, most people would never be able to buy a gpu. Who's got time to be constantly checking online retailers and hoping to get lucky and be on the right model page just when a restock occurs? If you're not willing to pay more than MSRP, than you are unlikely to get a card with or without scalpers. If you don't have a problem paying 2x+ MSRP or you just have to have a card for something work related, you can go purchase almost any GPU model you want at any time you want from ebay from a scalper. So, that is increased availability.

That sounds like a different definition of "availability"

It still doesn't change the fact that if X number of cards are available on the market, only X cards can be sold.

It's still "well, people with a lot more disposable income, who can't be bothered to stand in line and can casually choose to buy later" have greater ability to THEM.


EDIT: @helper800 detailed out pretty much what I was getting at.