OP: Why Microsoft is Innocent with IE8

[Guest]

This is like buying a car at a dealership and it doesn't come with tires! You can't drive it to get tires, because it doesn't do anything but sit there and look pretty and go vrooom! If you don't like the tires, you need tires to go get the tires you like. If nothing else we need IE for the malware people to focus on, while the rest of us use Firefox! Windows does need to ship with IE so you can use it to go get firefox!

 

[Guest]

Thank you. It's about time someone other than myself said these exact points! Microsoft was making a business decision when they included IE in Windows, they were NOT trying to be anti-competitive. The EU needs to just let the best browser win, and not try to interfere, they are just making things worse for everyone.

For the record, I use Mozilla's browsers (Firefox & Minefield).

 

[wayneepalmer]

If Microsoft would just turn itself over to a decent government, the UN, or better yet to the EU or some European-controlled shell company - kind like a software AIRBUS.

I mean honestly, Windows should be a benefit to all decent society not a bunch of thieving stockholders. For goodness sake MOST OF THEM ARE STINKING AMERICANS!!!!

Microsoft will be under attack until it has finally been "redistributed" to some group who is more worthy and socially enlightened.

 

[Guest]

Strange enough...Ubuntu and some other Linux distros doesn't require a web browser to install another web browser. It could be a good time for Microsoft to rethink the goddamn Add/Remove panel, which in my opinion is just plain and lacks some serious features that are now available under Linux...

 

[fulle]

C:\Documents and Settings\fulle>apt-get install firefox
'apt-get' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.

....Awww.

 

[p05esto]

XBOX, BING, WIN7, IE8, .NET 3.5, Expression Studio, Visual Studio, SQL server... all really very good products and good things from the MS camp. In this economy and with the competition strong Microsoft has pulled out the stops and is starting to shine again. Bash as you will, but I'm becoming somewhat of a MS fanboy these days. And I used to think MS was the devil, hated them. Have no affiliation or anything, just my opinion.

 

[crom]

Since there is 10 pages of comments up until now, I'm not reading most, and this may have already been covered. I'm fine with Microsoft shipping IE with Windows. However I'd love to be able to completely purge the browser down the road if I wanted to. For me it's more of a security issue than anything else. My computer is safer without any trace of IE on it. Some people may like the browser, and that's fine, but I think having a clear way to remove it would be key.

 

[Guest]

The EU should force all OS' to have all browser options available then. Force Linux releases...Force OSX...Force OS/2...Force them all.

No - the EU is looking to use MS to bring in millions in fines...to help their soured economy.

MS should flip them the bird. And HAS!

 

[sentico]

For those suggesting that we can use ftp, wget or abracadabra super sonic downloader to download a browser please stfu.

There are probably computer users that think the damned cd drive is a cup holder (or something equally as retarded). How do you expect the average finger typer to use command line let alone know what ftp is.

 

[Lans]

I agree and actually mentioned it in original post that browsers can and should be preloaded by vendors. Also made note of how ironic it is that this time around, you actually want them to preload it!

However that still leaves out a number of users that maybe upgrading to Windows 7 on their own (or know someone that will do it for them). My assumption was/is that if you are doing the upgrade yourself then you either know enough that you'll need to get IE on a separate CD, and/or have installers of your alternative browser on backup CDs/DVDs, know how to use command-line ftp etc etc. These should not be your average users...

 

[Twoboxer]

Geez! With IE out of Windows-EU, OEM's now will select the browser included in new computer sales.

So when the OEMs choose IE8, is the EU gonna sue them, too?

This is just good for the lawyers, and the EU, and no one else.

 

[Guest]

so what now fors isnt aloud to ship a ford stereo. because it is unfair to the stereo companys

 

[iversen]

[citation][nom]gohanmoka[/nom]so what now fors isnt aloud to ship a ford stereo. because it is unfair to the stereo companys[/citation]
Please read the relevant laws before you start making weird comparisons.

Ford is nowhere near securing a monopoly on any sort of market I know about. Ford is not a dominant company. Ford doesn’t even ship all their cars with stereos as standard equipment, and those they do it’s only some low end CD-player/radio.

Now if Ford was in control of let’s say 60% of the car market and they didn’t sell any of their cars without a high-end stereo included, then I’d be time to step in.

As the car market is now Ford would be able to include their best stereo equipment in all their cars and force them on the consumer without it being anti-competitive.
Why? Because it wouldn’t hurt the car-stereo competition, Ford simply holds too small a market share.

 

[Guest]

sounds like you should really be angry at MSFT - why dont they just include a non-msft browser with the OS ?

 

[Guest]

yayay for people not getting all the facts!

I'm guessing you didnt' read the report from m$ they will provide a way to download all the main browsers even with out one been installed .so its no big deal
if you want IE, FF,OP you can just select it on the "browser selection" screen

 

[iversen]

[citation][nom]dfuihafpigvudfspuif[/nom]yayay for people not getting all the facts!I'm guessing you didnt' read the report from m$ they will provide a way to download all the main browsers even with out one been installed .so its no big dealif you want IE, FF,OP you can just select it on the "browser selection" screen[/citation]
What report are you talking about? I think you are confused.
The EU asked MS to do just that, but MS refused and removed IE instead.

 

[annymmo]

There you have got a point.
THe EU should have forced OEM's to add other browsers.

And don't say IE is better than Netscape,
Netscape was way better and IE just broke the web.
It's not better it's just more convenient for users to take the first thing they encounter.
They they make the stuff only work on their stuff, not according to the standards. That is why you can't access this or that website on your iPhone people! It is MS fault. They have the monopoly over the internet this way and visual studio now comes with visual web developer (with silvershit, and I will keep silverlight calling silvershit because it is!)


And the EU is making stuff worse, they're kinda moronic.
They should let OEM's force to deliver more browsers (but leave the choice to what they do).
The moment the OEM's realize that they can advertise this as a feature (e.g. look we offer win7 with Firefox already installed!).
They will compete with this sort of thing and MS IE is gone!
MS doesn't allow me to use my svg (vector graphics for the web) illustrations and does it on purpose to put MS silvershit ahead!
This won't work! You will loose MS, either by flash or by web standards and competing browsers!

 

[zak_mckraken]

I think this whole mess could have easily been avoided with a simple feature: uninstall. The main problem with IE is that it's embedded in Windows. People feel that they're obligated to use it because it's already there and there's no apparent way to remove it. Sure you can install Firefox, Chrome, etc, but IE will still be there. There are tools out there to remove it but they're not official and you're never sure if it will leave traces or not.

Of course, every OS need to come with a browser installed and it's obvious that Microsoft will ship Windows with Internet Explorer. Give the user an option to remove IE cleanly and MS will be on par with the other comapnies in the browser war.

 

[meradz]

Firefox can easily be download from their ftp site using Windows Explorer or command line ftp://ftp.mozilla.org . I do not know if any other browsers offer download via ftp.

 

[Guest]

cyberkuberiah - i guess u have not understood the core topic. people are not talking about windows or open source. its just, should windows OS ship with IE? so that people can download browser of their choice.

 

[Guest]

The major issue that is here most likely is the fact that as it stands now, uninstalling IE from Windows is impossible. It's engrained into the OS. Therefore by removing it from Windows 7 allows the user to install whatever browser they like without having to keep a browser they don't want. It may be slightly inconvenient but its fine if OEM's install IE as long as it is no longer tied so closely the OS.

 

[eccentric909]

[citation]You must have missed the part in the text you just quoted where it was determined that MS abused its monopoly position. That's why they're NOT being treated like any other software company that bundles products. What may be an appropriate way to deal with companies on one level might not apply once they become dominant in the marketspace. Monopolies often need to be treated differently because they are so influential over the whole market, not despite it.
[/citation]

Let's see if this argument works at all.

Since Apple's IPods command about 85% or more of the MP3 player market (easily googled), for which users are given software which installs ITunes.. shouldn't Apple be forced to offer alternative music/video downloading programs? For instance, Microsoft's Rhapsody/Zune Network or other programs that offer a gateway to such a service?

According to most of people defending the EU's decision, this is because of MS's "monopoly"/market share. So where is the case against Apple "forcing" their consumers to use ITunes? It's not much different honestly. Let me break it down how I see the comparison.

Hardware = IPod, Software = IPod OS, Video/Music Browser = ITunes.
Hardware = PC, Software = Windows OS, Web Browser = IE

So, while people have hounded Tuan over not forcing Apple to offer a choice on their computers, because they're not a monopoly in that market.. This type of decision should be applied to the IPod, of which Apple does benefit from having a "monopoly" on the market, right?

I put "monopoly" in quotes, because I neither believe Microsoft or Apple are by definition a "monopoly". Microsoft sells more than just Operating Systems, just as Apple sells more than just IPods.


Then I've been seeing a smaller portion of comments where people are claiming it's because you can't "uninstall IE". Unfortunately, this argument no longer holds water. Because from what I can tell, you can un-install IE from Vista pretty easily now and with MS's response to the EU with Win7 not containing IE8, this solves that problem, correct? So this should technically be considered a "win" for those who claim this.

If you say no, you want MS to offer competing browsers.. again, I direct you to the above comparison to IPods and the MP3 player market. Would you agree Apple should be forced to offer competing ITunes-like downloading programs when you buy a new IPod?

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[citation][nom]__-_-_-__[/nom]how much microsoft pays to tomshardware?????????????[/citation]

Obviously more than was paid for your education (private or public). Is it too much to ask if to use your brain before posting?

 

[eccentric909]

[citation]Because from what I can tell, you can un-install IE from Vista pretty easily now and with MS's response to the EU with Win7 not containing IE8, this solves that problem, correct?[/citation]

Sorry, flubbed up this sentence pretty bad.

What I meant to state was:
Because from what I can tell, you can un-install IE from Win7 pretty easily now and with MS's response to the EU with Win7 not containing IE8, this solves that problem, correct?

I don't know why I had Vista on the brain. 😛

 

[meradz]

Maybe it does not matter whether or not the OS ships with the browser. Many of Microsoft's products require IE to be installed. Other software companys also may rely on an object or library provided by IE and would be broken if it did not exist. This would no doubt lead to bigger issues. I don't see an easy solution to this. Perhaps provide a web library kit instead and links to download browser of choice?

 

[eccentric909]

[citation][nom]meradz[/nom]Maybe it does not matter whether or not the OS ships with the browser. Many of Microsoft's products require IE to be installed. Other software companys also may rely on an object or library provided by IE and would be broken if it did not exist. This would no doubt lead to bigger issues. I don't see an easy solution to this. Perhaps provide a web library kit instead and links to download browser of choice?[/citation]

Why should they have to offer links to a competitor's browser? Are any other companies forced to offer avenues to use a competitor's product?

If we're going this route, as you say above with IE being integral to other applications, some of which not produced by MS correct? Then it seems like IE has become more than just a standard web browser and should not be considered in the same category as Firefox, Chrome, etc.? Maybe it should be considered an integrated portion of the OS, which also has the capability to browse the web instead?

Therefore if the user really cares, they could download a stand-alone web browser.

I still think the best solution is to do what MS is doing, if it's causing the EU so much trouble. Just not include IE at all and let the user fend for themselves. It is not MS's responsiblity to give someone tools to browse the web, they're selling an OS, which allows you to run applications on your PC hardware. That does not have to include a browser to surf the web with.