News PC gaming figures fall again in Germany, down to just 13.1 million — marking a 20% decline since 2019

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>you can choose whether or not to own your PC.... you cannot choose whether or not to own your console, not anymore.

You're talking about IP rights, and it's the same on consoles as PCs. You bought and own the hardware. But you don't own the software--the firmware, OS, game content. Your purchase allows their use per their licenses.
If you cannot use the hardware as you wish... you don't really own it. If someone else can tell you what you are allowed to do with it... they own it.

If your vehicle provider can dictate where you are allowed to drive your car..... can you really tell me you own it?

Assuming you're referring to Nintendo Switch 2 bans from online play, unauthorized mods (in this case, the MIG Switch) has always been considered a use violation. The hardware still works, just not on Nintendo services. The same also happens for PC games, where cheating can result in online bans. It's obviously more drastic for Switch 2 because the ban is from the device vendor, and is a total ban. But the notion--your use is defined by the license--has not changed.
And what use is the hardware without the services? It becomes an expensive doorstop eventually.

This is why I never pay money for multiplayer games.... it's buying yourself into submission. Conform or be excommunicated etc.

>What this means is if PC AAA gaming dies then a bulk of people will simply stop doing AAA gaming

PC gaming won't die. It just won't be as large as before. People still play boardgames. In fact, boardgaming is seeing something of a renaissance.
Which is my point.... AAA gaming might die but PC gaming per se wont die, it will just transform into something actually much more beautiful most likely.
 
>what if the games a person plays... are pc only. then what ??

AFAICT, most if not all recent AAA game titles aren't PC-only. PCs are better for older (PC) games, and indie games. Modded games are easier on PC. Two of the three aren't mainstream.
Indy games are quite mainstream. They made more money on Switch than big third party studios.
 
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You are missing the whole point of the exercise... this is not about how you or I experienced it personally, it's about how the common consumer did. To the common consumer there existed the i3, i5 and i7 tiers. Celeron was for throwaway devices and i9 actually was a supercharged i7 and no one had the funds to buy one anyway.


See above.... none of this is about anything other than the general consumer market.


The problem is the combination of complexities that are new not the complexities themselves.


All things that could simply be ignored if need be.... and most people just turned them off if not available. Only PhysX caused some problems initially for AMD.


Yes but only for higher end hardware... now it's not limited to that anymore.


I have never in 20 years of experience once come into personal contact with anyone that has had a CPU die on them.... and I never read about it happening either until about 5-7 years ago. RAM dies, motherboards die.... CPU's don't unless you do something that causes it.


Again, this is not about people in the higher tech bubbles... its about common consumer understanding. And it's not about putting it all together either it's about understanding what makes one part different from another, why does one CPU work better than another even though the other is more expensive etc.

The whole point is to highly generalize because it's not about any particular individual or small group of individuals.
We are at an impasse. I see no point in fleshing out my points any further beyond an aggregate. To summarize, I believe you use words loosely such as "common consumer," and so on to try and muddy the waters. Fact is there have been most of these 'complicating' products and like features for over a decade, if not two. In practical reality, building a PC with no prior experience is the easier than it has ever been. Knowing what products to buy is as easy as a 3 minute google search for each part, and reviews have been publically available for as long as the hobby has been around. Endlessly quibbling words to obfuscate what is real does not lend itself to a practical argument. The advice from 15 years ago of buying an i5 and spending 2 or more times the cost on a graphics card still rings true. Grab an entry level ZXXX board, a well reviewed PSU, case, CPU cooler, fans, and RAM and the build is complete. Any bickering past that is fine toothed comb optimization of money spent, which is not a requirement of an easy build to build PC, nor mandatory for a 'common consumer.'
 
If you cannot use the hardware as you wish... you don't really own it. If someone else can tell you what you are allowed to do with it... they own it.
You do own the hardware, you can do whatever you want with it, but just like with anything else in life, if you do certain things there are consequences. Don't like what nintendo has to offer on the switch? Put a new OS on it when available.

If your vehicle provider can dictate where you are allowed to drive your car..... can you really tell me you own it?
This is a really bad argument. Does this mean that because I am a US citizen that its actually my state DMV and lawmakers who determine road laws own my car? No of course not. Just because I have to register my car to legally drive it does not mean the DMV owns it. Just because there are laws to follow on the road does not mean that lawmakers own my car. You can do whatever you want, but there are consequences.

And what use is the hardware without the services? It becomes an expensive doorstop eventually.
Seriously? Make use of the hardware without the services. This is not rocket science.

This is why I never pay money for multiplayer games.... it's buying yourself into submission. Conform or be excommunicated etc.
Yeah... fight the power bro... Is it really buying yourself into submission, or is it buying yourself access to a service? You use lots of extreme and dogmatic language regarding very surface level opt in privileges. Is it a power struggle, or is it a service you can choose to pay for that you deem worth your money and time?

Which is my point.... AAA gaming might die but PC gaming per se wont die, it will just transform into something actually much more beautiful most likely.
Should all of triple A gaming die for whatever the reason in a quick time span it would be like removing the bottom three jenga pieces of a jenga tower. The entire games industry would collapse. Sure there would still be people making games but it would be going back to the stone ages of the industry. I really don't want to be dragged into explaining why all of this is the case, just know it would not be as pretty as you expect it to be, at least for a long time after the collapse.
 
You do own the hardware, you can do whatever you want with it, but just like with anything else in life, if you do certain things there are consequences. Don't like what nintendo has to offer on the switch? Put a new OS on it when available.
And this would disable its ability to play nintendo games no?

This is a really bad argument. Does this mean that because I am a US citizen that its actually my state DMV and lawmakers who determine road laws own my car? No of course not. Just because I have to register my car to legally drive it does not mean the DMV owns it. Just because there are laws to follow on the road does not mean that lawmakers own my car. You can do whatever you want, but there are consequences.
Thats because the government owns the roads so they can dictate how vehicles are allowed to use it. I am talking about Toyota telling you for example you are by terms of your agreement to purchase the vehicle to submit your travel plans to them for approval. Or that that they will sue you if you don't use approved parts because it is breach of contract.

Yeah... fight the power bro... Is it really buying yourself into submission, or is it buying yourself access to a service? You use lots of extreme and dogmatic language regarding very surface level opt in privileges. Is it a power struggle, or is it a service you can choose to pay for that you deem worth your money and time?
In this case the service is the ability to use the hardware or software as you see fit, if you are limited by the provider... then you are leasing not buying it.

Should all of triple A gaming die for whatever the reason in a quick time span it would be like removing the bottom three jenga pieces of a jenga tower. The entire games industry would collapse. Sure there would still be people making games but it would be going back to the stone ages of the industry. I really don't want to be dragged into explaining why all of this is the case, just know it would not be as pretty as you expect it to be, at least for a long time after the collapse.
Oh sure that could happen... but more likely would be a repeat of the 90's after the 80's crash... only this time it will happen much faster as indies take the turf that AAA used to hold. Remember.... Doom was an indie title.
 
>If you cannot use the hardware as you wish... you don't really own it.

No. Ownership doesn't equate to unfettered freedom of use.

>If your vehicle provider can dictate where you are allowed to drive your car..... can you really tell me you own it?

In this case, the rules of use (driving) are set by the govt. If you violate them, you will be fined and/or your use can be curtailed. As above, car ownership doesn't translate to freedom of use, without rules.

This notion--ownership != freedom of use--applies to most everything being used in the public space. If you own a gun, you can't shoot it wherever you want.
That logic only applies in cases where your use of your property directly impacts others around you. Not to how it directly or indirectly impacts the profits of corporations.

>If someone else can tell you what you are allowed to do with it... they own it.

For PCs & consoles, the vendors do own the software, so they can indeed tell you what you are allowed to do with it. Yes, the hardware is useless without software, but you already know this before you enter the transaction. Nothing about this is new.
In soviet now... you don't own software, software owns you.

And in soviet now also, they pretend to sell software to us... and we pretend to buy it....

This is why some people use Apple software and other use anything else. If you want to have your life dictated to you by corporations that's your business... that does not change that they own your behaviour to a degree and you pay them for the privilege.

>This is why I never pay money for multiplayer games.... it's buying yourself into submission.

Your complaint is about one of the the downsides of a walled garden. When you buy into a closed ecosystem, you are dictated by its rules, in return for its conveniences. It's a trade-off. Whether you take the jump is a personal decision. We're not here to argue whether one personal choice is better than another, but where the mainstream (the majority of gamers) is heading.
You never heard the allegory of if everyone else was jumping from the cliff would you jump with them?
 
We are at an impasse. I see no point in fleshing out my points any further beyond an aggregate. To summarize, I believe you use words loosely such as "common consumer," and so on to try and muddy the waters. Fact is there have been most of these 'complicating' products and like features for over a decade, if not two. In practical reality, building a PC with no prior experience is the easier than it has ever been. Knowing what products to buy is as easy as a 3 minute google search for each part, and reviews have been publically available for as long as the hobby has been around. Endlessly quibbling words to obfuscate what is real does not lend itself to a practical argument. The advice from 15 years ago of buying an i5 and spending 2 or more times the cost on a graphics card still rings true. Grab an entry level ZXXX board, a well reviewed PSU, case, CPU cooler, fans, and RAM and the build is complete. Any bickering past that is fine toothed comb optimization of money spent, which is not a requirement of an easy build to build PC, nor mandatory for a 'common consumer.'
Yes... all this is true.... for a narrow minority of tech literates who have been keeping up with the changes as they happen.....

It is not this narrow minority that impacts most sales however but the broad majority that is the common consumer.

Your failure to understand how you are not part of the chief impacting demographic leads you to misunderstand the changes in sales figures because you apply them only to your personal bubble. The highest value of individual sales are because of the narrow minority... the highest value of bulk sales are because of the broad majority. And the one is more likely to understand what he reads than the other.

Sure entry to all the data is easier now.... but the applicable data itself is more complex in terms of alternatives. These are not two things that should be conflated. And because the complexity has increased there is less incentive to even start for many beyond what marketing tells them.

I have been given examples of non-consumer hardware, overclocking, SLI and high end CPU's as proof I am wrong.... but the providers fail to realize that these examples prove they don't understand the argument because this kind of hardware falls outside the scope of it. They assume that because they bought this level of complexity in terms of hardware everyone else must have the same kind of experience as they do.

And now you claim the "common consumer" does not exist because you don't actually understand how he thinks. And for some reason you keep conflating putting the parts together with knowing which variants of the parts to get? How does that make sense? Actual physical installation of parts has not really changed for half a century especially if you can follow simple instructions, colour coding and "if it fits it sits".
 
And this would disable its ability to play nintendo games no?
That depends on the software.

Thats because the government owns the roads so they can dictate how vehicles are allowed to use it. I am talking about Toyota telling you for example you are by terms of your agreement to purchase the vehicle to submit your travel plans to them for approval. Or that that they will sue you if you don't use approved parts because it is breach of contract.
So the government gets a pass for their terms of use? Toyota does dictate how you can drive your vehicle via software, just not where you drive it. Again, its a poor argument.

In this case the service is the ability to use the hardware or software as you see fit, if you are limited by the provider... then you are leasing not buying it.
You can do that, its called a LAN party, or a private server. Those options allow multiplayer. If you want access to the consoles infrastructure to play multiplayer with others on that infrastructure that does not automagically change your ownership of a product into a lease agreement. That whole concept is also a distinction without meaning in the way you are trying to use it.

Oh sure that could happen... but more likely would be a repeat of the 90's after the 80's crash... only this time it will happen much faster as indies take the turf that AAA used to hold. Remember.... Doom was an indie title.
And then todays indies become tomorrow's triple A and the cycle of the problem repeats ad infinitum. A revolution with no purpose is perpetual chaos meant only to satisfy the need of emotion.

I have been given examples of non-consumer hardware, overclocking, SLI and high end CPU's as proof I am wrong....
Only one example is required to prove your misunderstanding of hardware in the last 5 years compared to the last 15 as being meaningfully difficult in the context of building a PC. Nearly everything has been overclocked for the last 15 years, yet you say nobody overclocks. Even if someone does not know there is an OC happening and they own the PC, their ignorance does not change the fact they own an OCed PC. Before I even ask you to define 'high end' I can say that you are epistemically wrong. There is no defined descriptor denoted as 'high end' that is agreed upon. There is not even a colloquially understood meaning of where 'high end' begins and ends in context to PC hardware.

And now you claim the "common consumer" does not exist because you don't actually understand how he thinks. And for some reason you keep conflating putting the parts together with knowing which variants of the parts to get? How does that make sense? Actual physical installation of parts has not really changed for half a century especially if you can follow simple instructions, colour coding and "if it fits it sits".
Your claim of a 'common consumer' is a strawman argument that bears no facsimile is common discourse except in your own mindspace. I help many tens of people with little to no experience build PC every year on Tom's hardware alone, so this notion that I do not understand the 'common consumer' is nonsense. Buying parts and putting them together is what is defined as building a PC. Your misunderstanding is that you do not need to know the variants of parts to put together a PC, only that they are compatible with themselves, and that has not changed, as you have said, for half a century. Do you define building a PC as just knowing the difference between the different variants of parts? Building a usable PC has 3 requirements; Acquire compatible parts, put them together, install an OS. The different variants of compatible parts has no bearing on building a PC. Would you like some examples? Could you provide me an example that defeats my definition of building a PC? How do you define building a PC?
 
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baboma, you really should learn how to quote people 🙂

AFAICT, most if not all recent AAA game titles aren't PC-only. PCs are better for older (PC) games, and indie games. Modded games are easier on PC. Two of the three aren't mainstream.
thats a moot point... not every one plays aaa games.. as you said, but each person has their own interests into which games that play, and i have seen some on here, that only play WoW... and that, is not on consoles... same as RTS games... or, IF by chance there is a game on a console that some one wants to play, is it really worth it to spend up to $800 on a console to play one game, even if it isnt on a comp ?

this is the reason why i dont own a PS or Xbox... not enough games on them that i would play, to warrant the purchase.

This is why I never pay money for multiplayer games....
then you could be only using half of what your hardware can do, comp, or console. to play a game with no multiplayer, is getting quite difficult now, heck, some games even require an internet connection just to even load them
 
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That depends on the software.

So the government gets a pass for their terms of use?
No pass, the road belongs to them they just allow you to use it.

Toyota does dictate how you can drive your vehicle via software, just not where you drive it.
yet....

You can do that, its called a LAN party, or a private server. Those options allow multiplayer. If you want access to the consoles infrastructure to play multiplayer with others on that infrastructure that does not automagically change your ownership of a product into a lease agreement. That whole concept is also a distinction without meaning in the way you are trying to use it.
Which proves my point... you don't own it, if you use it it owns your behaviour.

Only one example is required to prove your misunderstanding of hardware in the last 5 years compared to the last 15 as being meaningfully difficult in the context of building a PC. Nearly everything has been overclocked for the last 15 years, yet you say nobody overclocks. Even if someone does not know there is an OC happening and they own the PC, their ignorance does not change the fact they own an OCed PC. Before I even ask you to define 'high end' I can say that you are epistemically wrong. There is no defined descriptor denoted as 'high end' that is agreed upon. There is not even a colloquially understood meaning of where 'high end' begins and ends in context to PC hardware.
High end and low en are economic not capability distinctions, they don't need to be hard defined because they are constantly shifting and for the most part obvious. I cannot understand this sophistic idea that there are no identifiable high or low ends but I suppose that's the point of this kind of argumentation.

You keep trying to compare minor temporary experimental automatic boosts with things like XMP and PBO.... when these did not exist for most people until relatively recently. No one had boot failures because of RAM or burning CPU's before... now they do.

Now the high end consumers that willfully overclocked had these problems before... but ONLY they did.

Your claim of a 'common consumer' is a strawman argument that bears no facsimile is common discourse except in your own mindspace. I help many tens of people with little to no experience build PC every year on Tom's hardware alone, so this notion that I do not understand the 'common consumer' is nonsense. Buying parts and putting them together is what is defined as building a PC. Your misunderstanding is that you do not need to know the variants of parts to put together a PC, only that they are compatible with themselves, and that has not changed, as you have said, for half a century. Do you define building a PC as just knowing the difference between the different variants of parts? Building a usable PC has 3 requirements; Acquire compatible parts, put them together, install an OS. The different variants of compatible parts has no bearing on building a PC. Would you like some examples? Could you provide me an example that defeats my definition of building a PC? How do you define building a PC?
This is like saying there is no meaningful difference between sata and nvme when it comes to m2 drives.... they both fit into the same slot so obviously they are the same.

Also how can you understand something (common consumer) you claim does not exist to begin with?

To rehash what used to happen:find a motherboard with the features you want, check which version of RAM slots into it (only one speed available regardless), get that kind of RAM, check what type of CPU slots into it, compare speeds and costs and get what fits you, same for GPU, get standard other missing hardware. All in a few hours time at most.

Now: first look at CPU and figure out which type at which tier you need (take a day for it), then look at what used to be maybe 5 motherboards now is 20 or more(another day), then look at RAM and try to understand which speed is best for you and hope and pray your motherboard likes it... then stress about timing and sub-timing differences of the RAM(could be more than a few days cause it can leave you crosseyed), decide which monitor you want at which refresh rate and at which resolution as well as type (leave aside at least a week for this), now the fun with GPU's, instead of just focussing on tier you have to try and figure out which is best for your chosen monitor... also you might need to reconsider your CPU choice (I have no idea how long each different person takes to figure this out but it could be a few weeks of uhming and ahing pros and cons), then decide how much extras like upscaling and rtx matter to you, now the storage.... there used to be only one option and at what size.... now there is nvme's.... aaaaand back to the motherboard for manual consultation and comparison on which speed drive works best on what... lots of back and forth between these steps btw..... do you get the idea yet?

Do you still insist on directly comparing your long experience with the new guy looking at this for the first time? Sure YOU can atm make fast easy decisions with all the little aspects but how many years did it take you to understand as much as you do? Remember, this is not about me, you or the people that mooch off of your knowledge base... it's about the common joe that never has done any of this for the first time.

Putting it all together takes a day (especially for first timers) but it's easy, installing the OS... also easy.... everything before that... not so easy. At least installing the OS actually is easier than it used to be.... almost miss how long that used to take.... start in the morning.... finish up the next day if you remembered to reinstall everything you used to have..... even third party app installation is easy these days. Software side is no problem, the problem is hardware side.

You oversimplify things too much.
 
then you could be only using half of what your hardware can do, comp, or console. to play a game with no multiplayer, is getting quite difficult now, heck, some games even require an internet connection just to even load them
That contains a number of assumptions not worth going into..... if nothing else GoG typically has the best games these days oddly enough.
 
You keep trying to compare minor temporary experimental automatic boosts with things like XMP and PBO.... when these did not exist for most people until relatively recently. No one had boot failures because of RAM or burning CPU's before... now they do.
um no, auto over clocking was around ages ago.. my A64 comps have this setting in the bios, and it does work to some extent not quite like it does now.
 
and not every one uses GoG or steam, or the like, so that is a moot point as well... to say GoG has the best games, that is completely a matter of opinion, nothing more....
hehehe it's literally in the name....

Well in comparison for the games I myself play.... GoG has 90% of the non-free one's. The rest.... well I am hardly a conformist so take from that whatever you will.
 
um no, auto over clocking was around ages ago.. my A64 comps have this setting in the bios, and it does work to some extent not quite like it does now.
And it put you in danger of groovy smoking CPU's at the time?

Were all AMD CPU's not basically for overclocking at some point though? Half the reason so many people stayed away from them.
 
um GoG stands for Good old Games, not Great old Games....
Meh there are a few stinkers but I am completely honest that I barely need steam let alone epic for games, GoG has basically everything I need. Does not mean I say no to freebies everywhere even if I never use them to actually download the games. Backups backups backups backups.

it could, as some of those auto overclocks back then, also adjusted the voltages as well... before bios overclocking came around, which is before things like ryzen master came around, you had to use jumper blocks on the mobo to OC...
The difference between what people could do vs what they actually did.... that's my point.

For a lot of people up until the point where overclocking became rampantly automatic (and funnily enough almost never called overclocking because of this reticence) if something was advertised as "for overclocking" chances were it was avoided as dangerous... as in you might need to replace it which screamed expensive from the start.

The first time people vaguely started trusting auto overclocked hardware was GPU's.... but that never translated to CPU trust.... and through slight of hand almost all CPU's get overclocked anyway while no one is looking. Boosting is not really seen as an overclock btw, it's seen as the CPU running at half-speed and then boosting to full-speed as required.... if people saw it as overclocking.....

The interesting thing is about 6 years ago when I did my last upgrade this, was before DDR5 went mainstream, I rejected AMD as an option because the RAM was convoluted and finicky.... now it's reversed and Intel is apparently just as weird with RAM the whole 13-14gen thing happened. Also back then everything other than AMD came with cooling except it was clear the stock cooling options were terrible for anything above i5 and AIO's were only starting to be a thing.... so everyone was just looking but not touching.... but now it's completely reversed and you have to stress over what cooling you are going to use too for everything. I went from not being able to justify team red back then from a financial pov (the compatible RAM and motherboards were so expensive an intel combo was actually cheaper) to not being able to justify anything else now from ANY pov.

Come to think about it... some markets probably do early adopting by a factor of years compared to others. Might colour the last pages of arguments.
 
No pass, the road belongs to them they just allow you to use it.
Yes, you are giving them a pass, and that is not even the entire picture. They don't just own the roads, but the regulations that determine the very manufacture, maintenance, and use of the vehicles themselves. This was an apt example to defeat your argument.
Which proves my point... you don't own it, if you use it it owns your behaviour.
This is the same faulty reasoning that people use to say a toddler rules your life, not the other way around. The unspoken option is you can drop the kid off at a fire house even if that were the case, and its not.
High end and low en are economic not capability distinctions, they don't need to be hard defined because they are constantly shifting and for the most part obvious. I cannot understand this sophistic idea that there are no identifiable high or low ends but I suppose that's the point of this kind of argumentation.

You keep trying to compare minor temporary experimental automatic boosts with things like XMP and PBO.... when these did not exist for most people until relatively recently. No one had boot failures because of RAM or burning CPU's before... now they do.

Now the high end consumers that willfully overclocked had these problems before... but ONLY they did.
High end this or that, versus, low end this or that has no meaning because the understanding of what that means is highly subjective. This is not sophistry. If you and another person cannot come to an agreement on the meaning of the words they are using to talk about something, no conversation can be had. You are the one saying that there used to be some implied social understanding of multiple "tiers" of parts and that there are so many of them now that its confusing. If you are referring to cost, then give a range, if you are referring to capability then define the performance parameters so we can actually talk about what you mean to say. I find it bizarre that you believe there is an idea of 'low end' or 'high end' tiers of parts coupled with some factual understanding of when it is or is not low or high end.

Turbo boost is not some experimental feature and it has nearly a 100% uptime on all CPUs made by Intel since sandy bridge when doing some amount of work.These clock boosting features are also anything but minor when it comes to the amount of performance they net you when used. Turbo boost can give you 30-40% more clock speed depending on the chip in question. XMP is a static profile just like how JEDEC standards are a profile. Put simply, PBO is an enhanced turbo boosting feature for AMD CPUs. The only reason it has to be turned on is because the amount of kinds of changes you can do with it and lots of them fall outside the scope of the original warranty for the CPU. Anything that increases clock speed above the base advertized clock speed of a CPU is an overclock by definition.

You are telling me that no consumer that did not overclock had any issues in the past with their hardware? Only the people who OCed had any sort of hardware issue? Those are some of the most easy to prove false claims I have ever read. For instance, the recent 13/14th generation Intel CPUs were clocked too high as a baseline and cause rapid silicon degradation. This is a design flaw of the 13th/14th CPUs while run completely stock with intel guidelines. All consumers had issues with various PC parts in the past, not just OCers.
This is like saying there is no meaningful difference between sata and nvme when it comes to m2 drives.... they both fit into the same slot so obviously they are the same.

Also how can you understand something (common consumer) you claim does not exist to begin with?
To the average consumer, no, there is no meaningful difference between SATA and NVMe M.2 drives and you proved it. They both install into the same slot in the same exact manner. The only difference beyond that is performative, which no consumer is going to be able to tell the difference between said drive unless staring at synthetic benchmarks.

I am using your made up terminology in an effort to effectuate the discussion. Every time I used the phrase it was in apostrophes to signify that it is a so-called term with no commonly understood meaning in the context that it is being used. When I used it I completely defined my usage of the phrase, unlike yourself. I defined it as, "people with little to no experience [building PCs]."
To rehash what used to happen:find a motherboard with the features you want, check which version of RAM slots into it (only one speed available regardless), get that kind of RAM, check what type of CPU slots into it, compare speeds and costs and get what fits you, same for GPU, get standard other missing hardware. All in a few hours time at most.

Now: first look at CPU and figure out which type at which tier you need (take a day for it), then look at what used to be maybe 5 motherboards now is 20 or more(another day), then look at RAM and try to understand which speed is best for you and hope and pray your motherboard likes it... then stress about timing and sub-timing differences of the RAM(could be more than a few days cause it can leave you crosseyed), decide which monitor you want at which refresh rate and at which resolution as well as type (leave aside at least a week for this), now the fun with GPU's, instead of just focussing on tier you have to try and figure out which is best for your chosen monitor... also you might need to reconsider your CPU choice (I have no idea how long each different person takes to figure this out but it could be a few weeks of uhming and ahing pros and cons), then decide how much extras like upscaling and rtx matter to you, now the storage.... there used to be only one option and at what size.... now there is nvme's.... aaaaand back to the motherboard for manual consultation and comparison on which speed drive works best on what... lots of back and forth between these steps btw..... do you get the idea yet?
I will just underline the factual inaccuracies in the above. My reservoir for fighting against your inexperience or ignorance, and gross mischaracterizations is nearing empty.
Do you still insist on directly comparing your long experience with the new guy looking at this for the first time? Sure YOU can atm make fast easy decisions with all the little aspects but how many years did it take you to understand as much as you do? Remember, this is not about me, you or the people that mooch off of your knowledge base... it's about the common joe that never has done any of this for the first time.

Putting it all together takes a day (especially for first timers) but it's easy, installing the OS... also easy.... everything before that... not so easy. At least installing the OS actually is easier than it used to be.... almost miss how long that used to take.... start in the morning.... finish up the next day if you remembered to reinstall everything you used to have..... even third party app installation is easy these days. Software side is no problem, the problem is hardware side.

You oversimplify things too much.
I used to be common Joe. The first computer I build I had no idea what I was doing and only had a budget. I went to Microcenter Tustin. I picked up the following PC parts in about 3-4 hours. I got home and built it with the context of the paper manuals that came with the parts in about 4-5 hours. The exact same thing can be replicated today. In fact, my nephew just did the same for himself last weekend at microcenter. He had never done anything like that before. I am speaking from experience as a prior common Joe and speaking of my nephews recent example of doing the same exact thing. If one has a pulse, a will, and a budget they can build a computer by themselves with very little help or research, just as it has always been.

You are overcomplicating things too much

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K 3.4 GHz Quad-Core Processor (Purchased For $0.00)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 Black Edition 42 CFM CPU Cooler (Purchased For $0.00)
Motherboard: ASRock Z77 Extreme4 ATX LGA1155 Motherboard (Purchased For $0.00)
Memory: G.Skill Sniper 16 GB (4 x 4 GB) DDR3-1600 CL9 Memory (Purchased For $0.00)
Storage: OCZ Agility 3 120 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive (Purchased For $0.00)
Storage: Seagate BarraCuda 1 TB 3.5" 7200 RPM Internal Hard Drive (Purchased For $0.00)
Video Card: XFX Double D FX-795A-TDKC Radeon HD 7950 3 GB Video Card (Purchased For $0.00)
Case: Cooler Master HAF XM ATX Mid Tower Case (Purchased For $0.00)
Power Supply: Corsair AX850 850 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply (Purchased For $0.00)
Total: $0.00
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2025-06-25 17:09 EDT-0400
 
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Yes, you are giving them a pass, and that is not even the entire picture. They don't just own the roads, but the regulations that determine the very manufacture, maintenance, and use of the vehicles themselves. This was an apt example to defeat your argument.
They own the roads so they can decide what vehicles can use them and how these vehicles can be used on them... how is this difficult to understand?

In the same way Nintendo owns it's services so they can decide what devices can be used and how, the same way they own the hardware they sell, the same way Apple owns the hardware it sells, they just lease you the use of the hardware and enforce their rights via software while the government does it via officers.

This is the same faulty reasoning that people use to say a toddler rules your life, not the other way around. The unspoken option is you can drop the kid off at a fire house even if that were the case, and its not.
Actually yes it is generally considered true that if you father a child you lose the freedom to not care for it. And a woman that becomes pregnant loses the for 9 months until birth all kinds of physical freedoms. so on and so forth. The difference is the child does not choose for this to happen. Now we can go back to doing things as the ancients did and just throw them on the rocks if we don't find them perfect enough but that's another discussion.

Whatever compels you to do something you would not otherwise have done... is exercising ownership over you. Simple.

High end this or that, versus, low end this or that has no meaning because the understanding of what that means is highly subjective. This is not sophistry. If you and another person cannot come to an agreement on the meaning of the words they are using to talk about something, no conversation can be had. You are the one saying that there used to be some implied social understanding of multiple "tiers" of parts and that there are so many of them now that its confusing. If you are referring to cost, then give a range, if you are referring to capability then define the performance parameters so we can actually talk about what you mean to say. I find it bizarre that you believe there is an idea of 'low end' or 'high end' tiers of parts coupled with some factual understanding of when it is or is not low or high end.
You seem to be a wealthy individual that has never even had to consider this.... or you are doing this on purpose because it hardly takes any effort to simply apply high, mid and low as they have even commonly been presented by manufacturers.

Turbo boost is not some experimental feature and it has nearly a 100% uptime on all CPUs made by Intel since sandy bridge when doing some amount of work.These clock boosting features are also anything but minor when it comes to the amount of performance they net you when used. Turbo boost can give you 30-40% more clock speed depending on the chip in question.
Otherwise understood by the consumer as the CPU runs at half to two thirds speed and boosts to full speed as required.

XMP is a static profile just like how JEDEC standards are a profile.
Static overclock profile compared to stock profile......
Put simply, PBO is an enhanced turbo boosting feature for AMD CPUs. The only reason it has to be turned on is because the amount of kinds of changes you can do with it and lots of them fall outside the scope of the original warranty for the CPU. Anything that increases clock speed above the base advertized clock speed of a CPU is an overclock by definition.
You contradict yourself. All overclocks are by definition outside of the warrenty for CPU's unless otherwise specified.... including PBO as has recently been highlighted.

You are telling me that no consumer that did not overclock had any issues in the past with their hardware? Only the people who OCed had any sort of hardware issue? Those are some of the most easy to prove false claims I have ever read.
If you mean by hardware issues hardware that ceases to function.... yes, only OC has predominantly caused that except with motherboards that you always have to watch for failure.

For instance, the recent 13/14th generation Intel CPUs were clocked too high as a baseline and cause rapid silicon degradation. This is a design flaw of the 13th/14th CPUs while run completely stock with intel guidelines. All consumers had issues with various PC parts in the past, not just OCers.
This is an example of factory OC.... that the users did not know about.

To the average consumer, no, there is no meaningful difference between SATA and NVMe M.2 drives and you proved it. They both install into the same slot in the same exact manner. The only difference beyond that is performative, which no consumer is going to be able to tell the difference between said drive unless staring at synthetic benchmarks.
Except that one is slower than the other and most of the time turns off other parts of the motherboard.... the other one potentially slows down your PCI'e speed.

I am using your made up terminology in an effort to effectuate the discussion. Every time I used the phrase it was in '' to signify that it is a so-called term with no commonly understood meaning in the context that it is being used. When I used it I completely defined my usage of the phrase, unlike yourself. I defined it as, "people with little to no experience [building PCs]."
Not how I used it at all.... let me rephrase. You get the minority of high end consumers that do niche things like purposeful OC and SLI and are likely to run non-consumer hardware.... then there is everyone else. Only the minority has the knowledge and wealth necesary to do this. As in your anecdotal evidence below you entered this minority many years ago.... or were born into it.

I will just underline the factual inaccuracies in the above. My reservoir for fighting against your inexperience or ignorance, and gross mischaracterizations is nearing empty.
Oh dear me.... how ever will I cope.

I used to be common Joe. The first computer I build I had no idea what I was doing and only had a budget. I went to Microcenter Tustin. I picked up the following PC parts in about 3-4 hours. I got home and built it with the context of the paper manuals that came with the parts in about 4-5 hours. The exact same thing can be replicated today. In fact, my nephew just did the same for himself last weekend at microcenter. He had never done anything like that before. I am speaking from experience as a used to be common Joe and speaking of my nephews recent example of doing the same exact thing. If one has a pulse, a will, and a budget they can build a computer by themselves with very little help or research, just as it has always been.

You are overcomplicating things too much
No I think things through and when I buy I do so with the intent to only re-buy if something ceases to function or becomes obsolete. I don't want to be caught in some random trap where I wasted money on the wrong random thing.

And I have too many times see people make stupid mistakes because of their ignorance or haste.... that I have had to fix or explain how the only way to fix it is to spend money... that they don't actually have available to spend.

Sure you can blindly buy whatever is available.... but there is much more to get wrong. It's not as safe anymore to just vaguely slap together things that seem like they look nice together... unless you are willing to swap parts in and out as time goes along until all the niggles have been worked out. Or perpetually keep upgrading because your choices obsolete more often than they should.

I never understood the impulse some people have to upgrade their GPU or CPU every year or 2nd year.... and now it's RAM that it gets done with too.
 
Except that one is slower than the other and most of the time turns off other parts of the motherboard.... the other one potentially slows down your PCI'e speed
and most, wont know the difference, as helper800 stated, unless you run benchmarks all day... is that what you do with your comp all day ? run benchmarks, and tweak it to wring every last drop of performance out of it? i sure dont... i spend my day, using it...

This is an example of factory OC.... that the users did not know about.
no, this is a plain example of a manufacturer pushing their products to hard to compete.

The difference between what people could do vs what they actually did.... that's my point.
and most, RE: . those that dont read this website, for example, just get the comp, and use it.. thats it, what ever the defaults are, they leave them alone..

then stress about timing and sub-timing differences of the RAM
i dout many people go this deep into setting up there comp, as most, probably have no idea what do do with these settings, and leave them at default, heck, some of those, dont even enable XMP.

like helper800 has said, you seem to be quite over complicating things. to try to prove, or show, you are right. and reallt seem to be making up some things as well....
 
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and most, wont know the difference, as helper800 stated, unless you run benchmarks all day... is that what you do with your comp all day ? run benchmarks, and tweak it to wring every last drop of performance out of it? i sure dont... i spend my day, using it...
Except they might notice if some of their HDD's stop working and but not notice why

no, this is a plain example of a manufacturer pushing their products to hard to compete.
by using method of factory OC..... just not calling it that

and most, RE: . those that dont read this website, for example, just get the comp, and use it.. thats it, what ever the defaults are, they leave them alone..
and then the problems come and they are confused.... then they get angry if someone tries to explain to them what happened.... then they might decide to drop the enterprise entirely

i dout many people go this deep into setting up there comp, as most, probably have no idea what do do with these settings, and leave them at default, heck, some of those, dont even enable XMP.

like helper800 has said, you seem to be quite over complicating things. to try to prove, or show, you are right. and reallt seem to be making up some things as well....
This might have been valid if modern CPU's don't often rely on RAM for part of their capacity.

On the other hand PC's could run the RAM slower because the user does not know about XMP.... or autoXMP means the PC fails to boot and resetting the firmware back to defaults does not work the way it should to get it bootable..... which is another new problem that did not use to exist because the default settings were the safe settings.

It's not that I overcomplicate it.... it's my annoyingly vast experience in dealing with the fallout of people buying hardware they don't understand.... so I understand how they have more trouble today than they used to have because the hardware is now even less understandable. Hell people here might not understand this but many people out there still don't even know what an SSD is.
 
It's not that I overcomplicate it.... it's my annoyingly vast experience in dealing with the fallout of people buying hardware they don't understand.... so I understand how they have more trouble today than they used to have because the hardware is now even less understandable. Hell people here might not understand this but many people out there still don't even know what an SSD is.
Please detail your 'annoyingly vast experience.' I am not trying to say that I have more experience, and even if I did it's just as anecdotal as anyone else's. I want to better understand where you have come to these opinions. To begin I will roughly list my experience based in the USA. I have 15 years experience building PCs and just over 10 years professionally. I have built 100s of PCs myself and guided into the high 10's of builds for others, and provide support for them after the build. I have put together into the mid 100s if not low 1000s of builds for others across tomshardware and other forums. I have helped people fix 100s of PCs on toms alone. In my anecdotal experience, PCs have only become easier for new people coming into the hobby.
 
Please detail your 'annoyingly vast experience.' I am not trying to say that I have more experience, and even if I did it's just as anecdotal as anyone else's. I want to better understand where you have come to these opinions. To begin I will roughly list my experience based in the USA. I have 15 years experience building PCs and just over 10 years professionally. I have built 100s of PCs myself and guided into the high 10's of builds for others, and provide support for them after the build. I have put together into the mid 100s if not low 1000s of builds for others across tomshardware and other forums. I have helped people fix 100s of PCs on toms alone. In my anecdotal experience, PCs have only become easier for new people coming into the hobby.
Perhaps the difference between us is your common consumer is more wealthy than mine and can actually afford the cost of bad short term purchases. In that case I am urinating into the wind because you cannot understand reality outside your bubble.

How many of these builds you brag about have lasted for 7-10 years and how many for only 2-4? Do you even have a method of tracking it this way or do you build and forget?
 
As someone who built their first rig in 2001, with 0 experience, I would say it has gotten a lot easier. What little I learned came from the old Tech TV days. You didn't have much for online help back then, not to mention being stuck on dialup.

My first build was with an AMD Duron 700.

Today you have a plethora of build guides on Youtube, that you can easily access with your phone, or smart tv, while building.
 
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Perhaps the difference between us is your common consumer is more wealthy than mine and can actually afford the cost of bad short term purchases. In that case I am urinating into the wind because you cannot understand reality outside your bubble.
I grew up poor. I saved every dollar I earned until I was 18 for an old car, and a gaming PC. Every PC I had prior was cobbled together OEM crap that barely worked with low profile video accelerators. Nothing was ever given to me that was worth more than a couple hundred dollars. I gave away my old build to my friends brother about 5 years back because he could never afford a gaming PC. Still works flawlessly and the CPU has been OCed since day one with a 4.2ghz or 4.4ghz all core.

How many of these builds you brag about have lasted for 7-10 years and how many for only 2-4? Do you even have a method of tracking it this way or do you build and forget?
Every single PC I have built for myself, friends, and family members is still running, about15 PCs. Every other PC I have built for people as addition income for 50-75 dollars, I was not the final say on parts. The vast majority of those builds are fine, but I can only be made aware of them if there is an issue and they let me know. I can track this with my business email where I receive such information. I no longer build PCs for money as I no longer need the additional income, nor do I have the time to do so. My current job also has me working in IT so I sometimes have downtime on the clock which is when I engage here.

Every PC I have built for myself is still running. I have only ever had 2 PCs for myself with CPU or GPU or storage upgrades. I had that 3570k build until September of 2019. The day Zen 2 came out I grabbed a 3900x and the rest of the build in my description minus the RAM kit and the graphics card. I have since gotten a 5800X3D, 2 graphics card upgrades, and a nice kit of RAM. I probably wont build another PC for myself personally for a couple more years.
 

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