Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (
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On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:47:06 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:3puq51dvklhsv74bhd2q9mf3v9j3q5avul@4ax.com...
>> Metagame problem, metagame solution. If the berries are not causing a
>> problem in the game, then they do not need to be removed from the game.
>
>In other words, *NO* problem of game balance should ever require removal
>from the game.
Those would be "other words" indeed, since they completely misrepresent
what I actually said. As I have stated several times, if the berries are
causing an IN-GAME problem, then they require and IN-GAME solution.
> Let's say some enterprising, well intentioned but ultimately
>misguided DM made up a character class that was so dramatically out of step
>with the rest of the characters that it was causing a problem between the
>players. I don't know, let's say d% for hit points per level, hit
>advancement twice as fast as a fighter, able to cast spells as a wizard of 5
>levels higher than the character and a cleric 3 levels higher, he has
>natural uber strength, blah blah, I mean the whole nine yards. The GAME
>would not be impacted(except to note that this guy kicks ass at 1st level),
>so your solution would NOT be to remove that character class from play?
That's not a metagame problem, that's an in-game problem. It requires an
in-game solution.
>> >Name them. Name the ones that are to be considered "non-hamfisted".
>Rage
>> >berries that hatch into ragemonsters and wipe out a town? HAMFISTED.
>>
>> Again, why must the berries hatch into ragemonsters? They could turn into
>> Rot Grubs, or be the eggs of Spriggans, or maybe they are the last
>> surviving seed pods of a Wolf In Sheep's Clothing.
>
>It doesn't matter WHAT they spring into, the mere fact that the "berries"
>are now springing forth monsters of ANY kind is hamfisted. Call them fairy
>sprites, call them rot grubs, call them fruit flies if you want, the mere
>fact that the berries aren't what they have always been claimed to be(if
>this is the route taken) is hamfisted.
No, what the players have always thought them to be. They didn't pick the
berries off of a bush themselves, did they? No.
>> You can hamfist a good idea by making it stupid, like ragemonsters.
>> Delicacy makes for a more interesting experience, and better roleplaying.
>
>If the berries bring forth the most nastiest monster ever to walk the earth
>or if it's something innocuously stupid, it's *STILL* hamfisted, because
>they have ALWAYS been referred to as BERRIES, not EGGS.
That's a pretty pathetic line to draw, Jeff. By that definition, a
backbiter spear is "hamfisted" because until they use it in combat, the
players have always thought of it as a +1 spear? Since when did the
player's assumptions about things dictate what those things actually are?
There have been a number of times where I've adopted someone else's
terminology on something when I knew better in order to deceive them. "They
look like berries" is not the same thing as "They are berries".
And come to that, BERRIES HATCH INTO THINGS IN THE REAL WORLD. That's what
they do. But having them do the same thing in-game is suddenly wrong? A
wolf in sheep's clothing is a plant...is it impossible for it to have
berries?
>> If the berries never get used, then they are even less of a problem,
>>aren't they? Do you remove an artifact from the game that the players have not
>> encountered and have never heard of because if they ever DO find it, it
>> will be a problem?
>
>It's the knowledge that the barbarian has massive backup to his main
>ability.
If it is never used, it isn't a problem. Repeat that to yourself as many
times as you like for it to sink in.
>> The cause is that the players are suffering from the green envy monster.
>> The berries are the source of the problem, but they are not the cause. If
>> this was an in-game problem, then the berries would indeed be the cause.
>
>It's as if you don't recognize that human beings are human beings. Sure,
>it's about envy, jealousy and all that, but you're ignoring that such things
>will NEVER go away. You're thinking that people won't be human when they
>are playing. The metagame problem of envy will not go away simply because
>you tell the players to knock it off.
Maybe your players. The ones I know aren't so galactically stupid.
I suppose the wizards in your group complain because fighters can keep
swinging long after the spellcasters have run out of spells? They have a
defining class ability that never goes away, surely that's unbalancing and
causes jealousy.
>> > Or are you going to at least get rid of the berries?
>>
>> If the berries are not causing a problem, then there is no need to remove
>> of them. So no, I would not get rid of the berries.
>
>So, what's your solution?
In order to solve a problem, there would first have to BE a problem. The
berries are not a problem, so why would I even attempt to solve them?
>> >However the implementation, the basic story itself is KLUDGY, AWKWARD AND
>> >*HAMFISTED*.
>>
>> Sorry, no.
>
>Denial is an ugly thing.
Stupidity is worse. You've not demonstrated in even the slightest way how
hatching berries is hamfisted, all you've stated is that it is. Again, you
are not the one upon whom anyone places any trust in making evaluations of
anything.
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