Pentium 820 D

fishmahn · Jul 8, 2005

Where have you seen them overclock better? I've seen that both can overclock about the same.

And the price difference isn't $500 - its barely half that. Look at my post about a dozen posts up from yours that details a 820 and an X2-4200+ at Newegg. There's not nearly that much price difference.

Today, if I was on a budget I'd buy the Intel system. But if I had $200 more to spend, I'd probably buy the AMD over the 840.

Mike.

Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside the dog its too dark to read.
-- Groucho Marx

P4Man · Jul 8, 2005

>Where have you been? Motherboards for the Pentium D series >can be bought rather cheap

You mean like that half dozen THG tested ? Maybe its a good idea to spend a bit more, no ?

>The 1GB modules of DDR2 are virtually the same cost as DDR
>but faster

Im not following this closely, so you could be right, but I am very curious what CAS settings those cheap DDR2 dimms are capable off, since you seem to worry so ;uch about even the difference between 1T and 2T on the X2. As for faster.. unless you provide me some compelling evidence to the contrary, Ill stick to my old school of thoughts where the best DDR2533 modules perform roughly like the best DDR1-400's on real world apps.

>I doubt very much the cpu will melt, sounds more like an
>AMD thingy of the past which Tom had a smoking video

The cpu won't literally melt, but the motherboards and PSU's might. And it can't be good to run your cpu outside the maximum specified Tcase either, especially when that already occurs with a newly installed cooler (no dust, no worn out thermal compound), in an airconditioned room. Say what you wantm but these chips are HOT and require thoughtfull cooling even at stock speed. Overclocking them just is a no no without water.

>DDR2 will be more useful then the DDR memory modules in a
>sock drawel two years from now

Maybe, just like DDR333 CAS 2.5 is more usefull than RDRAM-800 now I guess ? Not quite usefull enough to hang on to though, unless you are building a cheapo system for the grandparents using leftovers parts, in which case DDR1-400 will be just as usefull 2 years from here.

Now if you'd invest in the fastest DDR2-667/800 now, then it might be reasonably usefull a couple of years from here, but then dont tell me it has achieved price parity with DDR1.

>Dual processors as in two on a motherboard was always much
>more costly to buy and to maintain. Dualcore processors are
> not.

Not really; I would be surprised if you coulnd't build a decent dual MP system 2 years ago for the price of a Pentium D 840 or X2 4200+ system today. The slower clockspeed of the MPs compared to the fastest single chips back then would also be roughly the same as the ~20% penalty that exists now. And if you consider the 840EE or X2 4800+ I am very sure you could have built a top end MP system for that much money. Heck, even today a Xeon 3.2/800 is roughly 1/3 the price of the 840EE, for the delta Im sure you could pick up a very nice Xeon motherboard!

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

Makaveli · Jul 9, 2005

Noko Why do u keep pointing to higher clock speeds on the P4. That is obviously a given, with their much longer pipelines! I would still rather have a OVerclocked 4800+ @ 3ghz then P4 at 4.3Ghz. And from what i've seen the Cas 2 DDR 400 is just as fast as DDR2 533!

noko · Jul 9, 2005

Thanks you all for your feedback, good reasoning and very civil for the most part, look like I need to do more homework in this manner. This is still a ways away for me to actually do, so I have time to get a better feel for both platforms before I dive in. Plus if AMD slower X2's oc like their older processors in the low range then this could all be a mute point. Also another consideration is if I will go SLI or Cross Fire or single PCIex video card. Once again thanks to all.

FUGGER · Jul 9, 2005

<A HREF="http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67891" target="_new">820D overclocking stuff</A>

These 820D's are very nice and decent overclockers so far. This is a sub $300 chip.

DDR2 prices are comperable to DDR and you can find some great bargans online.

266x14 (3.73Ghz) is a sweet spot that requires no voltage increase or special heatsink.

Dont fall for the FUD from the fanboys here, they never owned or seen what you are seeking info on.

<A HREF="http://www.xtremesystems.org" target="_new">www.xtremesystems.org</A>

EugeneMc · Jul 9, 2005

<A HREF="http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/pentiumd-820_5.html" target="_new">http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/pentiumd-820_5.html</A>

Xbit-labs PD 820 OC experience:

The system started and booted-up normally at this speed and allowed running all sorts of small utilities (including single-threaded ones) without any problems. However, when we took a closer look at the system functioning in these conditions, we saw that it could not provide fully-fledged functionality in this case. The Zalman CNPS7700Cu cooler couldn’t cope with its task when the CPU got loaded heavily.

The temperature kept growing and the CPU would shut down. Since Zalman CNPS7700Cu is a pretty powerful air cooler, the conclusion we can draw here is not very optimistic. You need an extremely efficient cooling solution, a water-cooling system, for instance, if you intend to try overclocking your dual-core processor. We still decided it would be interesting to find out what is the maximum frequency our processor can work at stably with the air cooler, because this type of cooling is currently used in most computer systems. We reduced the FSB frequency to 240MHz and continued out stability tests. The CPU was working at 3360MHz in this case.

The results obtained in this case turned out even more interesting. The thing is that the system remained stable, the CPU temperature stayed within the acceptable range, and all major tests would run smoothly. However, when we started a benchmark supporting multi-threading, some weird things began happening. The results appeared suspiciously low in this case. When we launched two independent copies of a single-threaded application (we used WinRAR archiving utility), we managed to reveal a very interesting effect: Pentium D cores can get into thermal throttling independently. In other words, the first core continued working at its normal speed, while the second core started missing clocks losing its speed tremendously. The strange thing is however, that the temperature still remained within acceptable range of 75-78oC.

It turned out that the explanation is fairly simple. The temperature reported by the CPU is the temperature of the first core only. Unfortunately, Pentium D processors do not allow monitoring the temperature of both cores, this feature is implemented only in dual-core server processors.

So, to our great disappointment we cannot find out what actually happened with the second core. In our case, only the second core got overheated and went to thermal throttling, while the first core kept working normally.

So, we had to drop the FSB frequency to 230MHz and continue our tests. The CPU in this case worked at 3220MHz. At this frequency the second core didn’t get overheated any more, which is actually not a surprise for us, because this frequency is close to the clock rate of the top Pentium D CPU models.

So, our experiments suggest that Pentium D can only be overclocked if you have efficient cooling solution at hand. Regular air coolers allow significantly modest overclocking of this processor up to 3.2-3.3GHz only without thermal throttling of any of the cores.

P4Man · Jul 9, 2005

>The strange thing is however, that the temperature still
>remained within acceptable range of 75-78oC

Strange that they find those temps acceptable, when even intel thinks they are not. Check out the spec sheet, maximum Tcase is specified at 69.8C. Anything over that may impact stable operation and longlivety, and its not me that says so, but intel themselves.

Even so, nice link, and a clear demonstration of what anyone with half a grain of common sense already knew; if you want to overclock one of those, get some watercooling, or dont bother. I doubt I'd even risk building one at stock speed without watercooling, its not like my place never gets over 30c or is a dust free clean room

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

noko · Jul 9, 2005

That to me was a weak review for the following reasons

- Using 1gb of memory, come on 2gb will be more realistic for tomorrow machines especially if you are going to Multitask multiple applications. This alone makes the review subpar to me.
- Using subpar timings on the DDR2 ram but using ultra fast DDR timings.
- One core overheating and the other isn't (ahmmmm, check the heat sink, change out the heat sink, watercool to prove theory) then concluding OC ability without investigating further! The conclusion on that is just crap and is meaningless.

Now I was in the end swung over to the Intel cpu on this review due to what I do. Render (using multi threaded app for rendering) multiple frames and at the same time compressing those frames using DivX 6.0 into an animation. Now I would like to be able to play a game and other stuff while this is going on. In this review the 820D is vastly superior in that type of enviroment even being handicapped at only 1gb of memory. I have 1gb of memory, start rendering a complex scene with many textures, antialiasing etc. run other tasks in the background and 1gb is just not enough, not even close.

AS for OCing it will just be a bonus, I am sure I would get much better results then Xbit lab in this case, they just may have run out of time and did a poor job there.

Edited by noko on 07/09/05 01:29 PM.

noko · Jul 9, 2005

That also shows that they didn't even check what are acceptable tempertures but basically assumed they where, that review should be tossed for the most part, it has some value but FUD is everywhere in it. I hope Tomshardware does a real review, taking into enviroments that a dualcore processor would be needed and used for. How about a rendering of an animation while benchmarking Quake III or any other game, this would be a much more worthwhile bench mark with dual core processors.

Edited by noko on 07/09/05 01:38 PM.

P4Man · Jul 9, 2005

>- Using 1gb of memory, come on 2gb will be more realistic for
> tomorrow machines especially if you are going to Multitask
>multiple applications. This alone makes the review subpar to
>me.

And that would change what exactly ? If you are using 1GB Dimms, not a thing AFAIK. If for some reason you prefer all 4 slots occupied, substract 0.7% of the A64 scores.

>- Using subpar timings on the DDR2 ram but using ultra fast
> DDR timings.

Ultra fast DDR1 ? You'd be hard pressed finding modules that can't do CL2 @400 these days.

Subpar DDR2 timings ? Not sure if (m)any 955X boards can do anything faster @667 without running into stability issues like on THG stress test. Also worth noting the DDR2 they used is a full 50% more expensive, and with the 2 GB you are looking at, that translates into a $200 price premium. IOW, you could buy an X2 4200+ instead of the 820 with money left over, and then guess which system would be faster ?

>In this review the 820D is vastly superior in that type of
>enviroment

Surprise! its the only dual core they tested, of course it is faster at those types of workloads. If that is what you will be doing, a dual core is your first choice; wether that should be a 820 rather than an 4200+ is another matter though.. but since you seem to actually want the 820 to be better, Id say get one and be happy.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

BePe86 · Jul 9, 2005

So you honestly think taht THG will provide a better review than X-Bit labs? ROFLMAO, where were you during the "stress test"? They [-peep-] up in every aspect of the test...

here I found a revew of doom 3 and different encoding tasks:

<A HREF="http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/pentium-d-820/11.html" target="_new">http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/pentium-d-820/11.html</A>

Enjoy.

noko · Jul 10, 2005

Thanks BePe86 for that review, it turned out the best one yet I've read. Only wished the review used 2 1gb sticks of ram vice the 2 sticks of 512mb. Why would someone build a dual core machine with only 1gb? I wouldn't.

P4man,

I had a response earlier to your reply except my Sempron laptop kept messing up. :redface: Now is my chance

.

And that would change what exactly ? If you are using 1GB Dimms, not a thing AFAIK. If for some reason you prefer all 4 slots occupied, substract 0.7% of the A64 scores.

Yes, I want to use 1gb sticks for 2gb so later on I can increase it to 4gb. Now 1gb DDR400 CAS2 sticks are not plentiful. Plus how well does the X2 perform when you have 4gb of ram? A 64bit machine with a 64bit OS installed? Will the X2 fall flat on its face? Forced to use very slow timings? I do not know. I've always been limited by AMD machines when it has comes to ram and I am sick of it! 😡 Upgrading usually ment degrading in speed. My good old XP333-R flew with one stick, even 2 sticks of 256mb DDR ram. Put in two 512mb sticks, oops lost lot of FSB in that manuever. My current ABIT NF7S-R2 forget running 1T timing with with two sticks of 512mb unless you want to go less then 200mhz FSB. Man it will fly with 512mb except that amount of ram is useless for me. So I run 2t at 235mhz with 1gb but my performance increase is more like 210mhz if that much, I had to rewired the motherboard with my two sticks of bh5 running at 3.4v and a hardwire RTT-Ref voltage mod just so I can use 1gb with some decent memory bandwidth. LOL, you think I will even think about putting 2 sticks of 1gb DDR in my NF7? Something I could use right now. I am sick of that! 😡 What in the world was the third slot for? I am not done yet, my sempron laptop, with Via's K8M wonder

surpose to be able to take 2 1gb sticks of ram for this socket 754 AMD cpu, guess what Averatec flat out said that only 2 512 sticks of DDR will be stable in her after I bought it :frown: . You guessed it, I am very sick and tired of AMD platform RAM issues!!! 😡

Subpar DDR2 timings ? Not sure if (m)any 955X boards can do anything faster @667 without running into stability issues like on THG stress test. Also worth noting the DDR2 they used is a full 50% more expensive, and with the 2 GB you are looking at, that translates into a $200 price premium. IOW, you could buy an X2 4200+ instead of the 820 with money left over, and then guess which system would be faster?

I do not find DDR2 more expensive then DDR1 for what I would buy. To find a CAS2 1gb stick of ram at newegg cost $135 but it still has slower timings then the review you mentioned of being 2-3-3-6 combined that with 2t timings, well what will the performance be then? Those 2 512mb stick benchmarks just became worthless. Now I can get Geil 1gb DDR2 667 with the same timings of the review mentioned at 4-4-4-12 for $141. No big increase in cost there, plus I end up with much faster memory in the long run. If you say use Cas 2.5 or Cas3.0 1gb sticks of DDR(plenty of those) I could then just buy DDR2 533 for about the same cost When it comes to 1gb sticks DDR is not the way to go and I see no cost savings. Heck I see DDR2 533 ram with CAS 3 and at prices cheaper then DDR400 CAS 3 1gb ram.

Surprise! its the only dual core they tested, of course it is faster at those types of workloads. If that is what you will be doing, a dual core is your first choice; wether that should be a 820 rather than an 4200+ is another matter though.. but since you seem to actually want the 820 to be better, Id say get one and be happy.

It is not that I want the 820 D to be better, it is for me in what I want to do. The X2 maybe better for you in how you use your computer but for me the X2 would cost significantly more money and in the long run probably much more limiting due to it use of DDR ram. When I build my new system I will have that motherboard for around 3-5 years before I sell it, in that time I will upgrade probably with two more sticks of ram, to 4gb, maybe a faster dual core processor. With the X2 I see the Ram as a degrade in speed and maybe just not possible in the end making its lifespan potentially much shorter for me, therefore less value for every buck I spend. In addition the OCing results I've seen so far points to the 820D to fair better then the AMD X2 line in general. As I see it Intel has hit a home run with the 820D

.

noko · Jul 10, 2005

Now what would it take to get TomsHardware to test using 2gb plus or more exactly 1gb or greater sticks of ram? I can find no reviews testing and using 2 1gb or even 4 1gb sticks of ram. I would think the very serious ethusiast and professionals would welcome such a review and the reviews thus far for the next generation of computers using dual core processors, SLI etc. are just very poor and doesn't show true capability of them or limitations when you push them on the ram capacity side.

FUGGER · Jul 12, 2005

If you want to see any benchmark from the 820 or 830 let me know and I can run it on air for you.

I been running 2GB of ram on my gamer for over a year now. I still have the same Antec Lanboy case w/ sunon 120mm at front and back.

A case with good airflow is important and that case still my favorite.

I need to step up to 1GB modules soon and see what runs best.

For memory, get anything Micron D9 based and you will be able to go up to 333Mhz/FSB at the same 3-2-2-4 turbo setting, just needs a bit more voltage of 2.2v on the memory and just about every 955 board will do 2.3v in bios.

<A HREF="http://www.xtremesystems.org" target="_new">www.xtremesystems.org</A>

noko · Jul 12, 2005

Thanks Fugger,

Actually stability and OC ability for both the 820D and 1gb modules is what I am looking for and the 820D seems reading report after report from owners look rather awesome, now the ram???

You mentioned the 955 chipset, I was looking more in line with the 945 chipset, ABIT AL8. It is probably too early yet to get good data with all the new motherboards coming out with the 945 chipset.

The reviews I've have read just makes me want one more since the benchmarks or the areas I would consider related more to what I do are really incredible. I also will be upgrading everything this time around, except maybe my A/C cooled case and the 550w Antex TruePower p/s. The Abit AL8 is ATX so I would think it will be a motherboard replacement for the case I have.

I am still 2-3 months away from all of this so this is just fact finding time for me and trying to get away from all the FUD. Any benchmarks you can throw in multithreading applications (3d rendering) and video encoding (particulary DivX 6.0) will be most helpful. I do play games too but I realized a long time ago it is the graphics card that really matters in the end and shooting above 100FPS is totally meaningless, even 60FPS is meaningliess for me in games.

Zoron · Jul 12, 2005

I am still 2-3 months away from all of this so this is just fact finding time for me and trying to get away from all the FUD. Any benchmarks you can throw in multithreading applications (3d rendering) and video encoding (particulary DivX 6.0) will be most helpful.

Bullshit.

The only thing you're looking for is a ringing endorsement for the Intel Pentium 820D... which Fugger will be more than happy to provide for you. It's really funny that you hold the opinion of one Intel fanboi above everyone else that is telling you AMD will be just as good; if not better.

You've already proven that you're a little less than objective by your previous statements. You've already made up your mind to purchase this CPU (if you haven't already) and are merely looking for justification of your decision... rather than unbiased opinion of what processor you should buy.

 If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it.

BePe86 · Jul 12, 2005

Hey, what the hell do we care, it's his loss.
But don't come here whining when you get disappointed, or your CPU has killed five mb's...

dunklegend · Jul 12, 2005

Yeah if he wants Intel, and not an opinion of what's better, why even bother with him, there are some newbies out there, that need good suggestions.

It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are so ingenious

noko · Jul 13, 2005

LOL,

Now why would anyone think AMD is better in everything is interesting to say the least. Do you turn on my computer? Run my programs? Who are you to decide what is better for me? Saying I am not objective because I don't go along with your feelings or thoughts is even more funnier. I really don't give a hoot if it is AMD, Intel or whatever as long as I am happy with it. #1 - Multi-threaded applications, #2 large memory (2GB+), #3 it better multitask without failure for long periods of time, #4 encode video at a rather fast rate (I do training video's), #5 a decent gaming machine (hell even my XP2500 rig with 6800GT is decent in the gaming department for my standards), #6 cost.

AMD fails -> LARGE MEMORY -> From the last 5 AMD machines I've built increasing memory has always been a problem. Stability side, only two of the 5 AMD machines I would even remotely call stable enough for anykind of production work. Cost, for what I want Intel is the better value, BY FAR

.

As for Fugger, one of top most successful overclockers on the planet is not a loser, some of you should look in the mirror so you can see what one really looks like

.

BePe86 · Jul 13, 2005

~"As for Fugger, one of top most successful overclockers on
~the planet is not a loser, some of you should look in the
~mirror so you can see what one really looks like ."

As I've said earlier, I don't care if he can hit 7 or 8 Ghz, as long as he's just trolling, he wont gain anybody's respect.

~"Now why would anyone think AMD is better in everything is
~interesting to say the least."

Yes, it's interesting to see how AMD has become best in everything, I agree.

~"Do you turn on my computer? Run my programs? Who are you
~to decide what is better for me? Saying I am not objective
~because I don't go along with your feelings or thoughts is
~even more funnier. I really don't give a hoot if it is AMD, ~Intel or whatever as long as I am happy with it."

Yes, I agree, but the point is, from this topic, you've wanted opinions, you've got opinions from bith sides, and you've ignored one side. Need I saymore?

~"#1 - Multi-threaded applications"

Both ADM and Intel here...

~"#2 large memory (2GB+)"

Maybe Intel is a bit better here, but in a worst case scenario with AMD, you must run it at 2T , and lose 0.7% performence.

~"#3 it better multitask without failure for long periods
~of time"

Well, I would certainly not go with intel here, because of the immature chipsets and heat-production.

~"#4 encode video at a rather fast rate (I do training video's)"

Both does this good, some reviews favor Intel, some AMD.

~"#5 a decent gaming machine (hell even my XP2500 rig with
~6800GT is decent in the gaming department for my standards)"

Both CPU's should become a decent gaming-machine (with your standards)...

~"#6 cost."

Commented later...

~"AMD fails -> LARGE MEMORY -> From the last 5 AMD machines
~I've built increasing memory has always been a problem.
~Stability side, only two of the 5 AMD machines I would even
~remotely call stable enough for anykind of production work."

Which wasthe latest AMD machine you built? K7 or an early stepping K8? If it was an early-stepping K8, then it most certeinly was the memory controller, that caused a lot of headache for mny people. Still, the latest AMD machines I've built, have been rock stable, and the K8 has been used for different rendering and video encoding projects this year.

~"Cost, for what I want Intel is the better value, BY FAR ."

Well, if you buy crappy 945-board, crappy DDR2-ram, well, it affects your staility, which was your point #3, and is more important (at least for me) than point #6.

But again, who are we to say what to buy? If you REALLY want Intel that bad, then go fetch one, kid.

Zoron · Jul 13, 2005

As for Fugger, one of top most successful overclockers on the planet is not a loser, some of you should look in the mirror so you can see what one really looks like .

Careful with that razor-sharp wit you've got there... you might cut yourself.

Perhaps if you'd been using an AMD processor instead of an Intel, you would have come up with that response a little quicker.

Now why would anyone think AMD is better in everything is interesting to say the least.

It's not a matter of "thinking"... it's a matter of knowing.

Who are you to decide what is better for me?

You're the one that asked. If you don't like the answers because they don't match up with what you had in mind, then tough [-peep-].

Saying I am not objective because I don't go along with your feelings or thoughts is even more funnier.

See above. And if you believe you're being "objective", then I have a few bridges I'd love to sell you. It's sad how some people believe their own press.

 If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it.

dunklegend · Jul 13, 2005

Perhaps if you'd been using an AMD processor instead of an Intel, you would have come up with that response a little quicker

True.

Celibacy is not hereditary

dunklegend · Jul 13, 2005

If you want somebody that thinks what you think, ask your questions <A HREF="http://www.intel.com/training/na/emailform_ww.htm?iid=contactus+contactus_online&" target="_new">here</A>

Celibacy is not hereditary

BePe86 · Jul 13, 2005

~Perhaps if you'd been using an AMD processor instead
~of an Intel, you would have come up with that response a
~little quicker

ROFLMAO!

~If you want somebody that thinks what you think, ask your questions here

Lol. true...

noko · Jul 14, 2005

Is that the best you guys/girls can come up with?

Any 2gb+ reviews out there for one to evaluate? I've havn't seen any for Intel or AMD plateform to really say either one or both are stable. Now why would the 945 chipset be unstable? Where did that come from? DDR2 unstable? How so?

In order for me to listen I most then think like some of you? Well Fugger did mention, which frankly seems rather true, that the AMD lemmings gang up on anyone looking into Intel. Of course I must just be a troll for stating a few observations/opinions, right? Give me a break. I did get some good feedback and well response views and I thank those who contributed. I just havn't heard from those, except Fugger, who have built 820D machines. And yes I do respect Fugger, I don't always agree with his viewpoints nor some of his reponses but he has usually some very good comments, suggestions and experience that is most helpful and at times very amusing to say the least.

Besides don't some of you want someone to build a 820D machine to really find out the ins/outs of the build? In the same price range as the 820D and for what I want and do AMD just isn't there, at least yet. Now I've been using AMD cpu's at home for the last 6 years, Intel machines at work. Memory issues, mostly expanding the memory beyond the norm has been a significant problem on all of my AMD machines. In the end I may still build yet another AMD machine but at this stage I doubt it unless the X2 comes down significantly and some good large memory capacity reviews are done.

Pentium 820 D

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