Pentium 820 D

[Rugger]

Then it honestly sounds like you made your decision before you ever posted here and you wanted to see if there was anything that we could say that would dissuade you from your decision. I can respect that, but I think you're not being completely honest with yourself if you say that you already wanted the Intel.

In the end you should buy the system that makes <b>you</b> happy - whether it's made by Intel or AMD or ATI or nVidia. If you think that Intel has the performance and stability that you want/need at the price point you are comfortable with, then buy, build and be happy.

__________________________________________________
<font color=red>You're a boil on the arse of progress - don't make me squeeze you!</font color=red>

 

[function9]

I am still 2-3 months away from all of this so this is just fact finding time for me and trying to get away from all the FUD.

2-3 months away? And your basing decisions on what hardware to get on prices/reviews now? Sure that seems right. Aug 1, I believe AMD is releasing dualcore 3800 and 4000 chips, which are to start at $345.

I would think the very serious ethusiast and professionals would welcome such a review and the reviews thus far for the next generation of computers using dual core processors, SLI etc. are just very poor and doesn't show true capability of them or limitations when you push them on the ram capacity side.

Well because most people on the P4, A64 or FX platforms are more worried bout how games, movies and music run on their computers. Most people you see actually needing 4gb or more step up to a workstation platform (Xeon/Opteron). Call me crazy, but I don't think THG or anyone else is going to gain anything by an A64/p4/pD w/4gb review, the audience obviously isn't there.

 

[endyen]

I am a big fan of Amd. I am very impressed with thier ability to put out the products that they have.
That does not mean that I believe everyone should always buy Amd.
Right now, Intel is having major leakage current problems. This makes using a new model P4 run rather hot. They have made some improvements over the last year, but it still needs a lot of work. Industry concensis is that 65 nanos, and FD SOI will bring thier problem in line.
With dual core systems, you are looking at a lot of leaking transistors. Not only will they give off a lot of heat, but they must also take in a lot more power, through the mobo. The extra stress on traces, v-regs etc. is bound to cause problems for mobos.
No one here is in too much of a hurry to recommend Intel for those reasons. Would you recommend something you are fairly certain will cause someone that type of problem?
With Intel, you always pay for what you get, plus a premium for the Intel name. Take away the premium on these chips, and you are paying very little. Expect that from the chip, and you will be fine.

 

[noko]

Actually Rugger I thought I made it clear that as it stands now it looks like Intel is the way to go for me. This is the problem I am running into, I've just did a Camtasia screen recording (a nifty and probably the best screen capture program around) preparing for a training video on my OC XP2500 running at 2.35ghz with 1gb of ram. I have a video camera running, recording sound via mic, a 3d program open loaded with a scene and textures, maybe a on screen render, Camtasia is open recording the 3d program screen as I walk through the training. Memory is becomeing a real issue, remember as I record it will also have to go to the hard drive. So this is actually a very intensive, memory hogging and multitasking process. The camera is almost worthless because it is behind the voice recordings, the frame rate is actually alright for the training format going to be used. It is usable but could be alot better. After the recording session I save the file for editing and that takes depending upon length of previous recording 1-15minutes because the raw format is then converted. During that process the AMD machine is just a slug, even going to the internet is virtually impossible. I really don't want to leave the machine during these periods of time so that I can get some work done.

The solution is a much better multitasking computer with at least 2gb of memory. Now if I could afford a workstation computer I would but as the moment I really can't spend that kind of money. A single cpu machine would probably give me the same type of multitasking performance, maybe improved but still limited, if a single cpu was used Intel would be the better answer to my problem due to hyperthreading capability. A two processor system seems to be the real answer and better yet a dual core. AMD wants $450 and Intel wants $240. Intel as far as I can tell should be able to handle 2-4GB of ram just fine while I am uncertain with AMD, from my bad experience in the Ram area (mad) I don't even want to waste my time. Looking at ram, DDR2 1gb modules are at the same price and even cheaper then DDR.

As for reliability from my observations and experience Intel has a step up there. That doesn't mean the 820D won't be a lemon for reliability. If the OCing of the 820D is what I am hearing about then the 820D has alot of headroom indicating to me it should be rather reliable if operated within specifications.

As for cooling, I do not have a problem there, my whole computer case is A/C cooled (obviously I am not too worried about power requirements since the A/C units takes more power to run then the computer itself). In my case I can control the air going inside the case to sub zero temperture if I want except hard drives seems not to like tempertures less then 3c. So normally my case inlet temperture, air blowing over video card and cpu is around 8c. My OC XP2500 at 2.35ghz rarely goes above 25c at 100% cpu usage.

Have I made up my mind yet, not really but I am rather convinced at this point in time Intel is the better solution. If that changes so much the better.

 

[endyen]

As for cooling, I do not have a problem there, my whole computer case is A/C cooled

WOW....
How do you deal with the condensation? Around here we are usually around 55% humidity, so a setup like that would yield about a gallon or so a day.

 

[Rugger]

Nexus7 just posted in the mobo forum about a problem he was having with a new X2 system. (why you would put a dual core gaming beast in a SFF case with an unknown mobo is beyond my comprehension) He's using 2GB DDR400. I would recommend you also hook up with him to discuss performance. I imagine he's not too happy with his build right now, but he could provide some insight once he's up and running...

__________________________________________________
<font color=red>You're a boil on the arse of progress - don't make me squeeze you!</font color=red>

 

[noko]

Thanks Rugger, that is what I need to consider, mostly other people experences.

WOW....
How do you deal with the condensation? Around here we are usually around 55% humidity, so a setup like that would yield about a gallon or so a day.

No condensation, case is insulated inside to keep outside warm and very quiet . The system is an enclosed loop meaning very little moisture can enter and also consider the lowest temperture is in the A/C unit and the warmest is in the computer which stays above the dew point. Now if I have near freezing tempertures inside the case and I open it up, well that is another story. In addition I preheat the air slightly (using corrugated plastic tubing) just prior to case, this also ensures the dew point is not reached. In effect this cools everything from cpu, gpu,ram, hard drives, northbridge and works well for general overclocking of any component without costly add ons (now if you consider the cost of electricity then maybe this isn't so economic). A side benefit is that everything inside the case is dust free, my motherboard is around 1.5 years old and it has zero dust on it and looks like I just pulled it out of the retail box, same for everything else.

 

[Rugger]

Another place to get some good info on AMD and large RAM quantities would be to post in the memory forum. Pay particular attention to BrentUnitedMem and anyone from Cruciallabs. If anyone on these boards can give you the real skinny, then it will be them. You could also try a PM, but I'd like to see what they have to say on the issue too....

__________________________________________________
<font color=red>You're a boil on the arse of progress - don't make me squeeze you!</font color=red>

 

[P4Man]

Reality check..
#1 performance
As far as performance is concerned, there just is no comparison. A 4200+ will beat even a 840EE silly, let alone a 2.8 GHz 820.
Have a look here:
Video encoding:
<A HREF="http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2410&p=6" target="_new">http://anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2410&p=6</A>
I will spare you/intel the embaressement of linking gaming benchmarks.

#2 "2GB"
The 2+ GB issue is pure FUD. Yes, using 4 double sided DIMMS, you will need more relaxed timings. I linked the result elsewhere, the average performance drop moving to 2T was 0.7%. Considering the 4200+ is easily 20+% faster than a 820, that doesnt seem even relevant from an academic POV.

Further more, since you seem to intend to keep your system for a really long time and use lots of memory, 64 bit performance should matter a whole lot more than 0.7%. Interestingly, running 64 bit code adds another ~10% to the performance delta between K8 and P4/Xeon, so you are looking at a >30% performance difference yet you are whining about a 0.7% drop ??

#3 stability
As far as stability is concerned: more FUD. We have 5 A64 and 4 dual opteron systems here used for CAE, all of them loaded with between 2 and 8 GB RAM (registered ECC for the opterons). Total ammount of issues/glitches/problems so far: zero.

Or have a look at THG stress test, the A64 had no issues whatsoever, the 840EE kept rebooting, not booting and killing its periphirals after going through 6 motherboards and God knows how many DIMMs. Which platform looks like mature and stable to you ?

Early A64 boards suffered from immature bioses, which could lead to overly optimistic timings with exotic DIMMS and therefore instability. Big deal, just update the BIOS, override the SPD settings, or stick to RAM approved for that motherboard. If you built 5 systems that ended up being unstable, you are either incompetent, or trolling, period. Well, possibly both.

#4 Price
Yes, the 820 is cheaper. For its Celeron level performance, it had better be. But since you are going to wait a couple of months, you could also consider the <A HREF="http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20050706A2006.html" target="_new">the upcoming 3800+ </A>. The $100 price difference with a 820 is a drop in the bucket, and will be easily compensated by lower electriciy AND aparently AC, cheaper boards, ram as well as most likely, *far* better performance, especially running 64 bit binaries.

Now Im sure none of this will impress you or make you change your mind, since as others mentioned, either you made it up already, or (my guess) you are simply trolling. So dont bother replying, buy whatever you like, and enjoy. Im sure any dual core P4 will make you feel all cozy and warm inside (and outside).

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

 

[Zoron]

Since Crash hasn't said it yet, I will...

Are you using a VIA chipset mobo for your AthlonXP?



<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>

 

[Makaveli]

I think he is using a Via chipset board. Which is his mistake. Nforce 2 and AMD XP all the way there is no other solution!
For speed or stablitily.

 

[endyen]

consider the lowest temperture is in the A/C unit and the warmest is in the computer

Duh, that's what causes condensation. Well at least at the point where the air enters.

I preheat the air slightly (using corrugated plastic tubing) just prior to case, this also ensures the dew point is not reached

Wrong again.
Have you ever even run an Amd chip?

 

[noko]

endyen,

Dewpoint is basically when the vapor in the air condenses when the temperture falls to a given point depending upon humidity and pressure. Temperture lowering or pressure increasing causes you to go towards the dewpoint. Heating up the air out of the A/C (which which the A/C unit also dehumidifies being the coldest temperture) moves you away from the dewpoint. Yes I use an AMD machine or should I say machines, what is your point? Anyways I do not have any sort of condensation problem on my rig.

Makeaveli,

Both, I have a NF2 chipset mobo, ABIT NF7-S rev2, and my laptop uses VIA K8M400 chipset, with built in graphics.

P4man,

Calm down, you sounding like I insulted your grandmother or something . Of course I will check out your links and thanks for spending the time finding the info. I could care less if it is Intel or AMD meaning I really don't have any hidden agenda but believe as you may. 2gb memory stability and multitasking capability is foremost, performance of 20% maybe acceptable if half price and meets stability and multitasking scenario. Now if the 820D OC's better and stays just as stable then once again it can become a toss up. I will be clear, as it stands now I am leaning towards Intel but I've havn't yet made any serious decision as in which one I will buy, at least yet.

Now game benchmarks, todays games are virtually all single threaded, tomorrow? Now I do believe the X2 kick some arse when it came to multitasking running a game and another task at the same time. Forget the review, that I find interesting, still 2gb plus is what I am interested in so the X2, chipset and what not will have to be able to do 2-4gb days on end at 100% power and not folding up on me.

 

[endyen]

My point is that cold spots in such a system would cause condensation. The warm air from your tube would not be able to hold it's moisture. The face of the mobo would be cooled, while the air at the back would be trapped- dewpoint.
Anyone who has owned an Amd chip knows that @ 2.35 ghz it will run @ +55c. To drop it's temp by 30c would require an ambient of 0c.
Sounds like you have a great imagination to me, and are a troll.
Good luck with your next Intel build fanboy.

 

[noko]

P4man, just read the AnAndTech review, the benchmarks I am most interested in, Multitasking (non gaming), Intel came out ahead every time. . .???? If I get a 820D and OC to 3.6gh+, sorry I just don't see AMD winning for me with double the price. Yes, the DDR 1gb ECC modules, 940 boards and Opterons are stable BUT AT WHAT PRICE? Couldn't find the ram configuration in the article 😡 .

 

[noko]

endyen, your right about cold spots, <b>THE FREAKING A/C UNIT, the coldest spot</b> condenses the moisture out of the air. No condensing is going to occur in the warmer computer case. GET IT?

55c at 2.35ghz is that right? regardless of HSF, air temperture, flow rate around cpu. Hey troll get lost. You call me a fanboy after using AMD for years and now I see something positive with Intel and you just can't handle that but yet I am the fanboy. OK, I am a fanboy of performance, stability and good bang for the buck, if it is Intel this time you bet I will buy.



<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 07/14/05 08:43 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[darko21]

and now I see something positive with Intel

Really, how long have you been studying cpu performance? Intel was much better in the past compared to AMD. Generally the further back you go the better intel was compared to amd.

I agree for someone on a very low budget who wants to run 3 or 4 intensive cpu programs all at the same time this intel chip is a winner.

I'd even rec it to my dad if I thought he would use a computer that way. Eventually more software will be properly threaded for multi core. but by that time your cpu will be considerd extreamly slow.

If I glanced at a spilt box of tooth picks on the floor, could I tell you how many are in the pile. Not a chance, But then again I don't have to buy my underware at Kmart.

 

[noko]

I think you nailed it on the head, Intel at times (not always) had better performance but the price wasn't worth it to me. Rambus ram and some hefty prices while I bough a XP2500+ which OC's rather well, up to about 2.4ghz, I got lucky and have one of the unlock versions and it is not a mobile. Now the price for the Intel dual core is very enticing plus how I am how using my computers seems even more enticing. Even if I build the Intel dual core I will keep my AMD system for about another year before I sell it, it is still useful and good for a backup machine plus rendering long animations or what not having two machines is always very useful.

 

[P4Man]

>P4man, just read the AnAndTech review, the benchmarks I am
>most interested in, Multitasking (non gaming), Intel came out
> ahead every time. . .????

Oh really ? I suggest you read them again, and this time ignore the widely discarted email import tests (which is a known performance bug of OE, and not something anyone does anyway).

Scenario 1 (DVDshrink + all the other apps) ->
4200+ 20% faster than the 840, extrapolating lineary with clock, that makes it ~35% faster than the 820 you are interested in.

Scenario 4 (rendering + other stuff)
4200+ 32% faster than 840, ~47% faster than interpolated 820

Gaming scenario (Doom 3 + other stuff)
4200+ 25% faster than 840, ~39% faster 820 interpolated

Nuff said.

> If I get a 820D and OC to 3.6gh+

...and you keep it from melting as well as throtteling, you have a motherboard able to deliver the incredible ammount of power (several motherboards cant even handle stockspeed, let alone overclocked smithfields), then you have gained exactly 12% clockspeed over the 840 results from Anandtest. Not nearly enough to make it faster than a stock 4200+ on the tests you claim are relevant to you, let alone it would be faster than an overclocked 4200+. But if you somehow manage 4 GHz, at least it should beat a stock DC 3800+ i guess..

Besides, you claim to be so obsessed with "memory stability", then you shouldn't overclock in the first place, and invest in registered+ECC Ram in the second place.

>Yes, the DDR 1gb ECC modules, 940 boards and Opterons are
>stable

As are S939 boards. But hey, keep FUDding, or should that be FFF-ing ?

>Couldn't find the ram configuration in the article

As if (half) a percent more or less performance due to RAM timings matters one jota with the performance differences we are seeing.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

 

[noko]

ECC ram is one option.

Any reviews using 1gb modules? How do you know if either one is stable? Performance test with T2, on my XP2500, performance test will vary dramatically with T2 timings compared to T1 timings (only obtained by using a modified bios) as in ram speed maybe up but yet 3dmark2001 will be slower and other stuff will be faster. Now .7% is just insignificant if true but under what conditions?

Multitasking benchmarks (non gaming) at AnandTech shows Intel leading. So what, there still close, the price of the 820D wins out. I look forward to seeing X2 smaller brothers, more later.

 

[P4Man]

>Any reviews using 1gb modules? How do you know if either
>one is stable?

I havent got any problems with any of the machines at work (using both 512 and 1 GB modules, sometimes even a mix) or at home, nor do I recall any reviews reporting any problems. What on earth makes you think there is problem ? How many issues are being reported in this forum ?

>Now .7% is just insignificant if true but under what
>conditions?

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=917047

BLAS: 0.1%
Cypherbench: 1.0%
Primordia: 0.9%
MolDyn: 0.8%
3Dmark: 0.3%
Aquamark CPU : 3.0%
Aquamark GPU : 0.2%
SuperPi: 0.7%
Cinebench: 0.1%
Music conv: 0.3%
Terragen:0.2%
Overall average:0.7%

>Multitasking benchmarks (non gaming) at AnandTech shows
>Intel leading.

Oh my.. are you really *blind* ?? The only "multitasking" test the 840 wins is the email import test, which, as i said, is widely reported to be a flawed test (strangely for instance being way slower on the 840EE than no the 840). Now if you use LookOut! Express and regulary import thousands of mail (rather than linking the PST), by all means get a 840).

For everything else, although I also question the usefullness of some of the other tests, the 840 (non EE) is the slowest of the pack by a pretty significant margin, just how do you think a 400 MHz slower 820 would fare ?

>So what, there still close,

No they are not, there is ~30% perfomance gap which is HUGE and will only widen once 64 bit software goes mainstream.

>the price of the 820D wins out.

If price is truly your main concern, you current rig would win out. All that is needed is setting lower taskpriority for the background rendering. Oh, and btw, audio and video being out of sych has nothing to do with the system being too slow. Its a commonly encountered issue, google around for the solution.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

 

[Zoron]

Oh, and btw, audio and video being out of sych has nothing to do with the system being too slow.

True dat.

It's usually a driver issue (video or audio) or a DirectX issue... either way, have to mess with drivers to get everything working properly.

<font color=red> If you design software that is fool-proof, only a fool will want to use it. </font color=red>

 

[noko]

Thanks once again for reference or link: Good results, my concern is, for one, that it was conducted on a single channel plateform, socket 754, vice dual channel and then again on a single core cpu vice X2 or dual core. Not sure if the behavior of 128bit access to memory with two cores will work the same as 1 core with 64bit. It could and seems like it should be comparable but I am not sure. In any case good news and I found very interesting. Looks like the CPU cache is working more effectively then the XP line of chips here in hiding latency as a side note.

Now what concerns me are these comments from the thread:

I(illa Bee <font color=green><b>Hmm, good read thanks guys. This makes me feel better about running 4 dual sided 512mb dims..

I have to run 2t and a 5:6 divier. All thought, I uped the HT a bit a got my memory to like 205Mhz, 2-3-3-11... Not to bad for 2gbs of DDR..

</font color=green></b>

and this one:

Yashu <font color=blue><b>I can get 3gb in my DFI nf3 250gb at ddr333 I can get the memory up to about 200-215mhz at 2t...

so... I am wondering if it is worth it over 2gb since it would be a pretty high 60ns or so latency.

I mean I can only get about 51 or 52ns stable with 2gb... so... really it is not even that much slower...

I do alot of heavy modeling and other such things... I don't know... sure would be nice to turn the page file off for good.

</font color=blue></b>

Since I like to OC as long as I can maintain stability, using dividers so as to up the cpu frequency while keeping the ram at a slower stable speed also inserts some latency into the mix. Keeping a 1:1 ratio (like Fugger says is the best) with as tight as timings you can get usually gives you the edge overall in performance. That is a area where I think 1gb DDR2 modules have an advantage over the 1gb DDR modules. Also the decrease in ram speed as you increase ram size has plagued me in the past with AMD designed chips. I do want to go up to 4gb and not worry too much about the ram. Yashu worried about stability when going over 2gb of ram or very slow timings and he does what I do, MODELLING 😡 . Sounds all too familiar with me. Still not conclusive for me in the end on those two comments.

A good review using non ECC ram at 2gb and at 4gb using 1gb modules is needed. Even BF2 works better with greater then 1gb of ram and here we are having dual core cpu's be reviewed with a measly 1gb of ram. Yeah lets render something and play BF2 at the same time while listening to music :frown: . Now why are the reviews so lousy in general???

And yes, thanks P4man for the info. I will be checking out the Abit forums to see if I can see how things are working out with higher levels of ram installed.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 07/15/05 09:54 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[noko]

Oh yes, thanks P4man and Zoron in pointing in a good direction to solve one of my problems with video and audio sync .

 

[P4Man]

>Looks like the CPU cache is working more effectively then the
> XP line of chips here in hiding latency as a side note.

Its not the cache, its the ODMC.

As for your other comments, those guys arent using Venice/San Diego, which have improved memory controllers that can do 400MT using 4 double sided dimms, unlike previous hammers that had to 333 MT in those cases. So in fact his 200+ MHz was a fairly decent overclock, and certainly not stock speeds.

But again you are worrying about a 1-2% performance delta and ignoring the 35% real world differences... really odd. And again so seem obsessed with overclocking potential AND 110% stability, two things which just arent compatible, no matter what ppl here and elsewhere claim.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =