Please Review New System Specs...

slvr_phoenix · Jul 7, 2003

I'm looking at ordering parts from Newegg to build a new computer in about two weeks time. If you have the time, please review the parts and tell me if anything that I'm looking at is just plain silly. Thanks.

(All prices include S&H by the way.)

CyberPower 525VA 6 Outlet UPS = $65
(Reason: Protect system.)

Antec Sonata w/True380 = $120
(Reason: Silencing case with good air flow.)

Antec 120mm Smartfan = $26
(Reason: Need another quiet 120mm fan for case and auto-RPM increase if heat increases sounds helpful.)

Logitech Black Optical Desktop = $31
(Reason: It's a black keyboard and optical mouse.)

Retail Intel P4C 2.6GHz = $220
(Reason: 2.4 verges on 'slow' since this system may go unupgraded for years and 2.8 costs too much.)

Retail Asus P4P800 (i865PE) = $123
(Reason: Fanless northbridge for quiet operation and comes with all of the cables that I'll need since I won't put my DVD on the same channel as my hard drive.)

Corsair Value Select 1GB (512MBx2) = $188
(Reason: I only care about running better than CAS3, so CAS2.5 will be just fine.)

Retail Leadtek Geforce FX5600 8X VIVO = $155
(Reason: It runs as good as a Ti4200 but with DX9 support. It has VIVO which would be fun. It comes packaged with a game that I'll enjoy.)

Samsung SP8004H 80GB 7200RPM IDE, 2MB cache = $75
(Reason: Very silent operation with acceptable performance.)

MSI MS-8216140BL 16x DVD/48xCD Black = $36
(Reason: Very silent operation and black matches case. Can live with less-than-stellar extraction speeds.)

Samsung 1.44MB black floppy drive = $13
(Reason: Still want a floppy drive and need black to match case.)

Altec Lansing 251 5.1 speakers = $78
(Reason: Want 5.1 speakers and these got good reviews.)

NEC FE990-BK 19" Black Flat-Panel CRT Monitor = $245
(Reason: Want a black 19" CRT and this one got good reviews.)

Microsoft XP Pro - OEM FUll Version = $147
(Reason: Need an OS compatible with coding that I do at work. XP Home/98SE won't cut it and only XP supports Intel's HT correctly.)
--------------------
Total = $1522

I'd really like to keep the total cost just at $1500 since I still have to account for tax as well, so please don't suggest a more expensive component unless you can save money somewhere else to accommodate or will donate the extra money to me.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

HardWareBoss · Jul 7, 2003

Looks good to me what you want it to do. since your going with 80 gig hd. Why not spend the extra $8 buy WD 80 gig 7200 RPM plus 8MB cache. Will 2000 Pro support your coding needs? They just released SP4

speeduk · Jul 7, 2003

Seems fine except that 5600. I bet my old 1700xp and 9700pro combo would out perform that nice intel cpu and 5600....

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6719742" target="_new"> MY RIG </A>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=996846" target="_new"> 3D-03 </A>
 120% overclocker (cheapskate)

slvr_phoenix · Jul 7, 2003

Looks good to me what you want it to do.

As a programmer I'd like to say that I'll use it primarily for coding, but as a closet-gamer I have to admit I'd love to play all of those games that I can't run on my current 500MHz Celeron. Besides, I want to be a game programmer eventually too.

So I figured that DX9 support should go in. Being on a budget though, it kind of limits my video card choices. I figure that if I upgrade anything in the next year it will probably be my video card.

since your going with 80 gig hd. Why not spend the extra $8 buy WD 80 gig 7200 RPM plus 8MB cache.

Mostly because the Samsung drive runs super-silent according to reviews that I've read. The WD800JB is a good performer, but to my knowledge no one has ever recomended one for being silent. It's the same reason that I chose the MSI DVD ROM over a Lite-On DVD ROM. I really want this to be as quiet of a PC as I can manage.

I'm tired of hearing whining fans and clunking drives.

I've also had experience with a number of hard drives in the past (both at home and at work) and of them all it has the WDs that have failed the earliest. (And it has been the Maxtors that have most often arrived dead from 'shipping' damage.) A waranty is good at replacing a prematurely failed drive, but you're still stuck without that drive for what feels like forever, and that's just no fun. So based on past experiences I look more at Seagate and Samsung than at Western Digital or Maxtor just out of habit. Seagate and Samsung both impress on me that they work on engineering subtle (but impressive) changes to minor aspects of their hard drives that other companies don't often concern themselves over. Quality engineering from the ground up makes a product more reliable.

Will 2000 Pro support your coding needs? They just released SP4

Meet my coding needs, yes. (It's primarily what I use at work.) Meet my CPU's needs, no. Unless SP4 contains HyperThreading support (which I didn't see amongst it's list of fixes when I did a quick search) I need a form of XP. As much as I detest XP I'm still pretty much stuck with it. Thanks for the info about SP4 though.

Somehow I hadn't gotten word of that yet.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

varghesejim · Jul 7, 2003

Every thing is ok except the graphic card.Why you are not buying ATI?You can get a Radeon 9600 pro for the same price.But if u want VIVO no way .Or can u afford AIW 9800?Then the system will also get some boost in functionality.

Enthusiast

slvr_phoenix · Jul 7, 2003

Seems fine except that 5600. I bet my old 1700xp and 9700pro combo would out perform that nice intel cpu and 5600....

For games, sure. However games aren't the only things that I run. I do write analytical scientific software and that takes some major CPU and RAM to crunch through well. I also dabble in 3D rendering, which again is primarily CPU-based. So as much as I'd like 'the ultimate gaming machine', I had to find a balance between CPU performance and gaming performance to meet all of my needs adequately.

Heck, originally I was going to put a GF4 Ti4200 in there, but the GF FX5600 had DX9 and a tiny bit more performance (and came with a game that I was wanting to buy anyway), so it was worth the extra $40 over the GF4 TI4200 that I had specced a month ago.

In the future (6 months to a year) I do plan on upgrading to a Sapphire Atlantis Radeon 9700Pro Ultimate (fanless heatsink stock so that waranty is still valid) or better if Sapphire (or someone else I guess) ever makes a better fanless card. I just didn't see it worth waiting six more months to build my PC just so that I could spec a better video card when I could build one now with a moderately good card and upgrade later. And canibalizing my CPU and/or RAM just for a better video card wasn't worth it to me either.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jul 7, 2003

Why you are not buying ATI?You can get a Radeon 9600 pro for the same price.

A Radeon 9600 Pro is only slightly better performance and it doesn't even come with VIVO. 🙁 It doens't seem worth it to me. A 9500 Pro, maybe, if I could get one for $150.

But if u want VIVO no way .

Exactly. And I want VIVO. It may just be to toy with mostly, but I'll definately get use out of it.

Or can u afford AIW 9800?

I wish! As I said, I'm on a budget and I can't spend more on a different part unless I cut a corner on something else to make up the difference.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

dwellman · Jul 7, 2003

Well, I'm nitpicking here, but I always consider Micron RAM better than most manufacturer's top of the line (only Crucial LL series manages to beat it due to faster timings. At the same timings, its a push! It owns the Corsair Value). Its the same price as the Corsair.

Also. My personal preference would be an ATI 9500 128 (PowerCooler or Saphire) It has VIVO functionality & DX9 & it just might take the software mod to make it a 9700 . . . AND it costs $20 less. Muhahaha!

__________________________________________________
Three great virtues of a programmer are: laziness, impatience, and hubris.

slvr_phoenix · Jul 7, 2003

Well, I'm nitpicking here, but I always consider Micron RAM better than most manufacturer's top of the line (only Crucial LL series manages to beat it due to faster timings. At the same timings, its a push! It owns the Corsair Value). Its the same price as the Corsair.

I'd be tempted if it had a CAS of even 2.5. The Micron RAM that I see there is at CAS3 though. 🙁 Yeah, I could fudge with the timings, but then I invalidate my waranty. Plus the Micron is in single sticks which hopefully are from the same batch, but there are no guarantees. The Corsair is at least assured to be from the same batch. Believe me, I had the same thoughts, but in the end I just decided not to tempt fate any more than I had to.

Also. My personal preference would be an ATI 9500 128 (PowerCooler or Saphire) It has VIVO functionality & DX9 & it just might take the software mod to make it a 9700 . . . AND it costs $20 less. Muhahaha!

I see video out, but not video in. Are you sure that it has VIVO functionality? And if the software mod worked it would be a good performer. If it didn't work though the plain 9500 gets spanked by a GF4 Ti4200 ... and that'd be no fun. That's kind of risky.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

chuck232 · Jul 7, 2003

I like everything but the RAM and video.

For the RAM, you can get 512MB of Buffalo PC3200 at newegg for $86. Unfortunately they're out of stock ATM, but they should be back soon. Also, they use Winbond chips which are top of the line.

As for the video card, without using AA/AF, it will be slower than a Ti4200. Then using AA/AF, it would probably give framerates that are unplayable. If you're trying to save money, just go for a Ti4200, otherwise, go for a R9500/9600 Pro.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6482578" target="_new">3D Mark2K1 Compare</A>

dwellman · Jul 7, 2003

from the same batch

Marketing smoke and mirrors.
Additionally, Crucial 3200 runs at CL 2.5 just fine. Exactly how does that invalidate your warranty?

And if the software mod worked it would be a good performer. If it didn't work though the plain 9500 gets spanked by a GF4 Ti4200 ... and that'd be no fun. That's kind of risky. (emphasis added)

Where's your sense of adventure?

OK, Ok. Looks like the GameVE and PCRapids descriptions were missprints. No VIVO. Shame on me! 9200, does, but it is a serious budget part, lacking DX9. Looks like the FX5600 is your best bet. Thumbs up!

__________________________________________________
Three great virtues of a programmer are: laziness, impatience, and hubris.

slvr_phoenix · Jul 7, 2003

For the RAM, you can get 512MB of Buffalo PC3200 at newegg for $86. Unfortunately they're out of stock ATM, but they should be back soon. Also, they use Winbond chips which are top of the line.

I'd never even heard of Buffalo RAM until a month ago when I was looking around on Newegg. I don't trust names that I've never heard of and can't seem to find any real solid information about. I'm trying to mitigate any and all risks with this system.

As for the video card, without using AA/AF, it will be slower than a Ti4200. Then using AA/AF, it would probably give framerates that are unplayable. If you're trying to save money, just go for a Ti4200, otherwise, go for a R9500/9600 Pro.

I generally agree except that the GF4 Ti4200 doesn't have VIVO and doesn't support DX9 so it won't look as nice running DX9 games and won't allow me to learn how to program DX9 effects. Plus the GF FX 5600 that I picked out has nice heatsinks so it should OC well enough to match or beat a GF4 Ti4200 at stock.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

Spitfire_x86 · Jul 8, 2003

Get rid of that WinXP retail from your list. Since you care so much about spending your money, download it. If you need help with installing SP on illegal versions, contact me.

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chuck232 · Jul 8, 2003

lol... that's just a great idea...

However Silver sounds like a more conservative person.. I doubt he'd feel comfortable doing that.

...And all the King's horses and all the King's men couldn't put my computer back together again...

<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=6482578" target="_new">3D Mark2K1 Compare</A>

Spitfire_x86 · Jul 8, 2003

I know this. But this is the easiest way to save money. M$ won't die if slvr_phoenix doesn't buy a legal copy of Windows XP Pro.

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eden · Jul 8, 2003

You're about to enjoy a planetary war with Slvr, after what you suggested! Watch out!

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Spitfire_x86 · Jul 8, 2003

lol, I know that I'm asking for a war. But I'm dying to have some non "AMD/Intel" or "ATI/nVidia" related war.

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TheMASK · Jul 8, 2003

Good system. Its good to see that u have a reason for everything. The result - u have a resonable system there

.

me says: If it was not for C, we wud be using BASI, PASAL & OBOL
slvr_phoenix says: But I'd still be using Python. 😛

slvr_phoenix · Jul 8, 2003

Marketing smoke and mirrors.

Not really. In general you should be able to run two completely dissimilar modules. However they'll both run at the speed of the slower and memory timings often will have to be raised slightly to get them to play nicely together. Even two sticks of the same RAM from the same company can have slight disparities which will require slightly worse memory timings to accomodate. Matched pairs mitigate this eventuality. It's not that non-matched pairs won't run, just that they may not run at their best.

Additionally, Crucial 3200 runs at CL 2.5 just fine. Exactly how does that invalidate your warranty?

Let me quote directly from Crucial's waranty as the folks at Crucial pointed me to, adding my own emphasis in bold to the point that they made:

The above warranties cover only defects arising under normal use and do not include malfunctions or failures resulting from misuse, abuse, neglect, alteration, problems with electrical power, usage not in accordance with product instructions, acts of nature or improper installation or repairs made by anyone other than Crucial or a Crucial-authorized third party service provider.

The product is CL3. Running it at anything better constitutes 'usage not in accordance with product instructions' according to the folks at Crucial. It amounts to the same thing as overclocking according to them ... and most experts for that matter.

Where's your sense of adventure?

When I'm buying a system that I've been saving up for over four years (other expenses kept getting in the way), my spirit of adventure has been gagged, blindfolded, bound by steel cables, and locked in a dark closet. **ROFL** I'm doing my best to play it completely and boringly safe because who knows when I might have the money to correct any mistakes.

OK, Ok. Looks like the GameVE and PCRapids descriptions were missprints. No VIVO. Shame on me! 9200, does, but it is a serious budget part, lacking DX9. Looks like the FX5600 is your best bet. Thumbs up!

Yeah. It may not be the best performance, but it's a very well-rounded and feature-rich graphics solution if pure gaming FPS isn't an absolute necessity. I think people just like to pick on GF FX models. Heh heh.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>Edited by slvr_phoenix on 07/08/03 09:38 AM.

slvr_phoenix · Jul 8, 2003

Get rid of that WinXP retail from your list. Since you care so much about spending your money, download it. If you need help with installing SP on illegal versions, contact me.

Believe me, I was tempted. I know how. Not only that, but I do have access to network installs for both it and Win2K.

However, as a software engineer, no matter how much I dislike WinXP and M$ for their bad attitude towards customers lately, I just can't bring myself to pirate software, even from a company as bloated and deserving to be ripped off as M$. It's just too hypocritical and if I don't have my ethics, then I have nothing.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jul 8, 2003

However Silver sounds like a more conservative person.. I doubt he'd feel comfortable doing that.

I wouldn't call it conservative so much as karmicly-challenged and ethicly-bound. 😉 I'm not doing it because I write software myself and I can't very well go around saying how bad piracy is while at the same time pirate software whenever it suits me. That just ain't right.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jul 8, 2003

You're about to enjoy a planetary war with Slvr, after what you suggested! Watch out!

Maybe another day. I think I've worn myself out trying to fight the whole piracy battle. Either people obey the law or they don't. Let the RIAA track down and prosecute individuals for downloading music that they never paid for. Let M$ implement all sorts of copy-protection and DRM into software. Let everyone else implement it into hardware as well. Let the battle between everyday people who casually pirate and big corporations begin. Let our rights under fair use laws be amongst the first casualties and the poor students who claim not to know any better be the first martyrs. I'm tired of trying to crusade both for our rights and against piracy at the same time. There have just been too many wrongs to make any of it right ever again.

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

slvr_phoenix · Jul 8, 2003

Good system. Its good to see that u have a reason for everything. The result - u have a resonable system there.

Thanks. It's no gaming wonder, that's for sure. But I'm hoping that it will be as well-rounded as I need. I have to admit though that I am tempted to get the P4P800 Deluxe. I don't have any firewire devices now, but in the future ... who knows? Plus in the semi-near future I could get another hard drive to turn it into a RAID1 array.

I'd really prefer either a RAID 1.5 or RAID5 array though, and I might get a SB Audigy2 (which has a firewire port) if the onboard sound quality isn't so spiffy. So it's hard to decide if the extra twenty bucks would be worth it or not... Maybe I'll just go donate blood and solve my dilema. **ROFL**

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

dwellman · Jul 8, 2003

Ok. I've read the same warranty. They're just trying to scare us.

I don't pretend to know anything about CMOS technology, but it seems that Crucial/Micron would be hard pressed to distiguish a failure due to a flaw in the IC or failure due to agressive timings.

Let me clarify my point of view:
I tend to adopt a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it comes to performing an RMA.

The Maxtor drive I bought for $20 (d540x 40GB) had obvious water (flood) damage. RMA sucessful.

The USR modem was killed by lightning/power surge through phone line. RMA successful.

I live a charmed life.

I think people just like to pick on GF FX models.

You know you're right. It most likely has to do with 1)nVidia is still top dog, and 2)they have the Futuremark scandal.

I really like ATI's AIW solutions. Their discrete tuner cards are also great. It's what I use. Their software kinda bites, though.
Pinnacle stuff is pretty good, especially if you're into DV.

I use VirtualDub for all my editing and converting.

What I was getting at is (but not in your budget) was spending less on a vid card () and getting a discrete capture solution. But for what you get, and from what I've been able to see, the FX5600 is the best deal right now for DX9. Otherwise, I'd be recommending with a Ti4200-8X. best price/performance IMO.

I prefer ATI because due to my own side by side subjective comparison: ATI owns nVidia visually (color, sharpness, ect.)
Hardware:
ATI: Rage 128, Radeon 7500 AIW, Radeon 8500
Nvidia: Geforce 256 DDR, GeForce2 MX400, Ti4400
Monitors: (CRT) KDS AV-9TF, (LCD)Hitachi CML-155
Software:
Windows 2000 SP3
ATI: Windows driver for the Rage, Catalyst 3.2 for the Radeons.
and Detonator 41.09 for the GeForce

The best was the 8500, the worst was the GeForce 256 (though it is older, but was new, and in box May, 2002)

__________________________________________________
Three great virtues of a programmer are: laziness, impatience, and hubris.

slvr_phoenix · Jul 8, 2003

Ok. I've read the same warranty. They're just trying to scare us.

I don't pretend to know anything about CMOS technology, but it seems that Crucial/Micron would be hard pressed to distiguish a failure due to a flaw in the IC or failure due to agressive timings.

I agree, they would be pretty hard pressed to tell, and that's assuming that they even tried which I doubt they would. That aside, if I get CAS2.5 RAM I can return it if it doesn't run at CAS2.5. If I get CAS3 RAM then I can't return it (without paying a restock fee) if it refuses to run at CAS2.5.

Even still, I'm really not all that concerned. If I thought that there was a significant reason to get the Crucial, I probably would. So far though I haven't seen any quantification of how the Crucial will benefit me over the Corsair Value Select.

I live a charmed life.

I wish that I did. That's why I'm trying my best to mitigate the possible problems with this system.

You know you're right. It most likely has to do with 1)nVidia is still top dog, and 2)they have the Futuremark scandal.

That whole Futuremark 'scandal' thing is just a joke in my opinion. You're definately right about #1 though. People seem to like to root for the underdog.

Which is funny really, since I really like the Radeon 9800 Pro. I wish Sapphire would make a passively-cooled AIW Radeon 9800 Pro. I'd make that my first upgrade if such an animal existed!

The funny thing is that I don't care much about a remote control or a TV tuner (at least with this system). I just want a video in so that I can record MPEG2 from a camera and/or another input source.

What I was getting at is (but not in your budget) was spending less on a vid card () and getting a discrete capture solution. But for what you get, and from what I've been able to see, the FX5600 is the best deal right now for DX9. Otherwise, I'd be recommending with a Ti4200-8X. best price/performance IMO.

I actually found a scary bit 'o hardware, the MSI Ti4200-VTD8X. It's a GF4 Ti4200 with AGP8x, 128MB, and VIVO. And it costs less than the GF FX5600 VIVO. True, it isn't DX9, but the extra 30 bucks is tempting, as is the collection of games that MSI bundles with it. Anyone heard any bad things about the <A HREF="http://www.msi.com.tw/program/products/vga/vga/pro_vga_detail.php?UID=380&MODEL=MS-8894" target="_new">MSI Ti4200-VTD8X</A>?

"Yeah, if you treat them like equals, it'll only encourage them to think they ARE your equals." - Thief from <A HREF="http://www.nuklearpower.com/daily.php?date=030603" target="_new">8-Bit Theater</A>

Please Review New System Specs...

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