Discussion PSU recommendations and power supply discussion thread - Tom's hardware

[GoldenLag]

And the alleged "serious ripple issue" with the Focus only occurred in a single Chinese test at 900w during a 150w overload. Nobody competent is going to describe that as a "serious issue".

it occured during testing that tested at that overload. the language of the text doesnt matter. i can only assume you mention it to lower its credibility.

the issue sadly means it receives the placement as per methodology. its harsh, but all units are treated equally. (oversights sadly happen)

The methodology you describe is worthless and exists only to give you an excuse for being wrong.

the issues are there. if you have a objective ranking system that doesnt involve a checklist of requirements for each tier. then we are all ears.

 

[A Very Dangerous Cat]

the issues are there. if you have a objective ranking system that doesnt involve a checklist of requirements for each tier. then we are all ears.

It would be better to get rid of the requirements, so little flexibility can be made there. G3, G5, and Focus/Focus+ are in Tier D, along with some actual garbage... You aren't very likely to need the OPP to work anyway, since your components won't come close to the rated wattage.

Don't you think it's a problem when RMx, TXm, RM 2019, and Vengeance silver are all in the same tier?? 4 different PSUs of highly varying quality, yet you, Luke and the others decide it's OK to label them as "all the same quality"??

Please, I know most people on this forum aren't very knowledgeable with PSUs, but you and Luke are just making a laughingstock out of yourselves by pushing the tier list.

The_Mask, Jonnyguru, OrionFOTL, Rexper, and other credible people have pointed out that the tier list is close to trash. The idea's mistaken from the start to include 100+PSUs into only 5 tiers, because there's going to be massive variance in quality, lots of subjectivity (how much protections matter vary from person to person, and is highly subjective), etc.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

That is very true. Vengeance silver should never be in the same catagory as an RMX

 

[Karadjgne]

Unless you are running HEDT hardware or multiGPUs you rarely if ever need to exceed a good 550w.

I7-9700k. 650w with equitable gpu.
I9-9900k. 850w with equitable gpu.
I9-9900ks 850w with equitable gpu.
R9-3900X. 650w with equitable gpu.
R9-3950x. 650w with equitable gpu.

Rx Vega. 650w + with any cpu.
RTX 2080. 600w + with any cpu.
RTX 2080ti. 650w + with any cpu.

And that's not including the oddballs like the Titans or FX 9590 or R9-295x2.

You can try and squeak by with a 'good' 550w for some of those, but don't be very surprised when OC fails, bsod, ntkernal errors etc happen because you are pushing power limits.

Any of the above are not by any means rare occurrences, but if you choose to shortchange a psu and run it at 95% to somewhere over 100% ability, you have no one to blame but yourself for issues/failures

 

[A Very Dangerous Cat]

snip

Where are you getting your numbers from?

 

[jonnyguru]

With that public statement, Corsair AX760i, AX860i and AX1200i (2012), without OCP enabled, max they are suited is for Tier B+ but for the public fact that they have fried systems, Tier D is well suited for them.

For that matter, 98% of PSUs would also be "Tier D+" since most PSUs are single +12V rail.

 

[Aeacus]

i suggest reading the placing methodoligy then

only thing that could be biased is the placement methodoligy, tho the methodoligy is not made by 1 person alone, and the people involved dont have any resentment towards certain brands or manufacturers.

Since the placement is biased, there's nothing else to talk about. The list is flawed beyond salvation and that's it.

do you have pointers for this claim? because its a "eh" unit, but nothing is seriously wrong with it.

Do i have review(s) to say so? No.

What i do have are lots of people from TH forums who have had huge issues with Corsair VS series where their PC won't turn on anymore or reboots once they start gaming.

Corsair is known brand and many people have bought Corsair VS series PSUs because they trust in a brand and also people tend to think little of PSU's importance. So, they get the cheapest unit of known brand, which for Corsair is VS series. Trouble starts when one day, there's 0 life from PC and PC won't turn on. At best, they are looking towards new PSU. At worst, they are looking towards anything new that the PSU was connected to. Same goes when PC reboots once game is launched. Here, PSU replacement with better quality unit is usually enough.
I rarely get any follow up replies from people who have bought "budget" PSUs (including Corsair VS series) and now are looking to fix their system. I explain the issue and give out suggestions how to fix their PC. Usually, "Thank you." from OP is the last thing i get in such topics.

its meant as a generlization for newbies to see what they are looking for, ive brought it up, but at this time other things have taken priority.

Is it really hard to edit that list by removing "single/multiple GPU setup" line? It's basic text editing. Or better yet, remove Tier A+ all together and put them all into Tier A.

it is, its why there is linked sources and units rarely if ever get a placement before propper sources are in place.

What there are, are 2x linked review to Focus+, one is for Focus+ 750 (Platinum) and another is for Focus+ 750 (Gold). There are 0 linked reviews for Focus (Gold) series (both semi-modular and fully-wired), none, nothing, making their placement erroneous.

Also, if you intentionally overload any PSU, even your beloved Tier S, you can be certain the PSU will produce out of specs results. No-one in their right mind would do that. If only to see how much the PSU is capable of by intentionally destroying it. 900W load on 750W rated PSU is stupid, especially if you consider that to rank the PSU. In this case, Focus+ 750 (Platinum).
It makes me wonder, was that review specifically dug up and used out of context to discredit Seasonic PSUs?


There are other things wrong in the list as well. Besides classifying entire PSU lineups by one unit alone, PSU lineups are also mashed together and classified by the platform used, but only at that extent which fits the agenda.

Example 01:
Antec High Current Gamer links to High Current Gamer M PSU in pcpp, which is different PSU lineup. Yet, when we look what proof LTT has provided for High Current Gamer, following is written:

High Current gamer
Based off internal shots, see Focus (plus)

No links, how cute. Also, it's royal screw up from the one who maintains that list since there are a lot of mash ups;

High Current Gamer (400W, 520W, 620W) - uses Seasonic GB Bronze platform, also used in Seasonic S12II (80+ Bronze) and M12II-520/620 EVO PSUs.
High Current Gamer (750W, 900W) - uses Delta Electronics platform.
High Current Gamer M (400W, 520W, 620W) - uses Seasonic GB Bronze platform, also used in Seasonic S12II (80+ Bronze) and M12II-520/620 EVO PSUs.
High Current Gamer M (750W, 850W) - uses Seasonic AT/AM platform, also used in Seasonic M12II-750/850 EVO PSUs.
High Current Gamer Gold (650W, 750W, 850W) - uses Seasonic FX (Focus+) platform.
High Current Gamer Extreme (850W, 1000W) - uses Seasonic FX (Focus+) platform.

The original High Current Gamer lineup has nothing to do with Seasonic Focus+ platform. Don't mash up several PSU lineups under one single banner. I know you can do it properly. Antec Earth Watts lineups are listed separately, as they should. Why don't do the same for HCG lineups?

Neo Eco Gold
Based off internal shots, see Focus (plus)

What? Also, from where the "Neo Eco Gold" comes from?

Your pcpp links to 520W Neo Eco 80+ Bronze, not 520W Neo Eco 80+ Gold. There have never been PSU lineup named:"Neo Eco Gold". What there are, are: Neo Eco, Neo Eco Classic, Neo Eco Modular and Neo Eco Zen (source). Latter has 80+ Gold efficiency but it's not named Neo Eco Gold.

With the naming sorted (since pcpp links to 520W 80+ Bronze unit, which is part of Neo Eco Classic lineup), how come Neo Eco lineups are also mashed together and are in the same boat as High Current Gamer? Do you people even know what are you doing?

I already cleared up the Antec HCG lineups, it's up to you to do the same for Neo Eco lineups as well. I only say this much that Neo Eco lineups (Neo Eco, Neo Eco Classic and Neo Eco Modular) are a mixture of OEMs, including: CWT, Delta and Seasonic. Also, none of the older Neo Eco lineups use Seasonic Focus+ platform. Neo Eco Zen may use Seasonic as an OEM and it may not. Since Neo Eco Zen came out few months ago and at current date, there are no reviews of them, what's your source of Neo Eco Zen using Seasonic Focus+ platform?

Example 02:
Tier A+
BeQuiet Dark Power Pro P10

Tier A
Seasonic XP (aka Platinum lineup)

Revelation time:
Dark Power Pro P10 (550W, 650W, 750W) - made by FSP.
Dark Power Pro P10 (850W, 1000W, 1200W) - made by Seasonic and uses XP platform, also used in Seasonic Platinum lineup.

Just because there's different name slapped on the PSU is enough to rank it higher?
Internally, Be Quiet! Dark Power Pro P10 850W and Seasonic Platinum 860W are same since both use the very same Seasonic XP platform.

i suggest reading the entire thing as the previous focus fx units had serious ripple issues under certain load conditions. since that is a requirement for Tier D, thats the reason for its placements. its been covered multiple times before.

Yes, that may be so but it got fixed. Speaking of it, similar issue was with Corsair AX760i, AX860i, AX1200i (which i linked in my previous reply) but i don't see them in Tier D. I wonder why?

I see quite a lot of Seasonic bashing in that list where when Seasonic units have had issues, they are stomped to the ground, despite the fact that Seasonic has fixed the issues since then and their units are fine. Still Seasonic units remain where they were stomped. But when someone else screws up (e.g Corsair AXi series with no OCP enabled), you guys look into other way like nothing ever happened.

 

[Rogue Leader]

The_Mask, Jonnyguru, OrionFOTL, Rexper, and other credible people have pointed out that the tier list is close to trash. The idea's mistaken from the start to include 100+PSUs into only 5 tiers, because there's going to be massive variance in quality, lots of subjectivity (how much protections matter vary from person to person, and is highly subjective), etc.

You had me here right up until you listed Rexper among experts. He literally doesn't know anything but how to regurgitate other peoples info and opinions from the JG forums. He actually admitted to me he doesn't know anything, and its part of one of multiple reasons why he is no longer welcome on this forum.

Otherwise I agree with your assessment. I hated this forum's tier list forever, and I praised the day it died. LTT has filled in the void it left, and here we are with the same discussion about how awful it is, due to many many factors pointed out by a lot of people here. The only difference here is nobody was ever defending Tom's list, here we do have someone defending it.

 

[Darkbreeze]

And on that note, we are going to FOREGO any further talk about the LTT list HERE. If you do, I'll whack it. This is for discussion of power supplies, not for discussion of power supply lists. Especially ones that are obviously not even as good as the old Newegg tier list from many, many years ago, much less the one Dottorent created. And those had glaring discrepancies. DT's list was at least marginally accurate AND, he was somewhere in between moderately and fairly knowledgeable. I've seen nothing on that list that leads me to believe that anybody who is contributing to it is even at that level. So, I'm not here to bash anybody's work, per se, as I told Luke by PM when he contacted me, but the list is pretty bad and it creates sh!$ shows whenever discussion of it comes up so I'd appreciate that we keep discussion of it elsewhere.

If you want to talk about it someplace else, that's up to you, but I'd rather not create havoc in this thread and have to wipe out half the posts once it gets out of hand. If there is a particular unit somebody wants to discuss, or a platform, or anything related to power supplies specifically, that is not "list" related, then that's great and anybody is welcome to be here and have discourse with anybody else. Let's just not do the exact thing that caused the old PSU tier list thread to go face down in the mud.

 

[Mezoxin]

I was planning on getting the focus plus 850w or 1000w this week , but I'm confused now , from what i read in the discussion the Seasonic Focus plus had an older version with voltage regulation problems and was fixed with an updated version , now me being in a third world country i suspect that we have old stock, our seasonic provider only offers 5 years warranty as well , how should i diffrentiate between the older and new version ?

 

[Rogue Leader]

I was planning on getting the focus plus 850w or 1000w this week , but I'm confused now , from what i read in the discussion the Seasonic Focus plus had an older version with voltage regulation problems and was fixed with an updated version , now me being in a third world country i suspect that we have old stock, our seasonic provider only offers 5 years warranty as well , how should i diffrentiate between the older and new version ?

The issue was with Seasonic FOCUS + Models manufactured before January 2018. I'd say its likely that you will not encounter these units, but its possible. I think the model numbers are still the same so unfortunately you can't identify them that way.

 

[NightHawkRMX]

Even then, the problem isn't as major as some think in my opinion.

You should be good buying one.

 

[Rogue Leader]

Even then, the problem isn't as major as some think in my opinion.

You should be good buying one.

IIRC it was only certain GPUs that it really affected, the GTX 970 and the Vega 56 and 64. And as a Vega 64 owner, at this point in time I recommend against buying either one now that the 5700 and 5700XT exist.

 

[Darkbreeze]

https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/seasonic-focus-plus-psu-compatibility-issues,38105.html

 

[Mezoxin]

I will try to see if i can read the manufactering date off that seasonic focus plus

What about this PSU
https://www.kitguru.net/components/...opoulos/gigabyte-aorus-gp-ap850gm-psu-review/
Gigabyte has a very old and reputable supplier in my country and actually offers 10 years warranty , not 5years like seasonic in my country

What do you think of this review is it enough to make it a competitor to the focus plus ? given the warranty options i have ?

 

[Darkbreeze]

Seems that that unit is a first attempt for the manufacturer Gigabyte contracted for that. While they did a nice job, for a first attempt, I'd probably avoid it for something better because although there are certainly much worse units out there, there were some concerns raised in that review including a failure to comply with Intel DC power specifications.

You could probably do a lot worse, but I'm rather skeptical when it comes to PSU reviews from Kitguru. I've seen them highly rate power supplies that Oklahoma wolf and Aris dumped on.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?16034-Gigabyte-AORUS-GP-AP850GM-review-KitGuru

 

[Mezoxin]

there were some concerns raised in that review including a failure to comply with Intel DC power specifications.

what are the effects of such incompliance with intel dc sequencing specifications ? is it common ? and why hasnt it affected the score of the PSU rating by much ?

 

[Darkbreeze]

Basically it means that it is not compatible with the Haswell or newer Intel low power specifications. At least I'm pretty sure that is what they are referring to when they say Intel DC sequencing compliance, is the Haswell/newer low power state DC requirements. But there are likely OTHER aspects of the Intel compliance data sheet that they could be referring to in terms of non-compliance as well. They don't specify on the summary. I'll have to look at the review more closely to see if they mention specifics earlier in the review.

The big Haswell PSU compatibility list

techreport.com

 

[Mezoxin]

This is from the review

and this is from intel

Does this confirm that its only drawback that it wouldnt work with the C7 sleep state ?

 

[4745454b]

I'm not disagreeing with Intel, but what difference does this make? Maybe it's just because I woke up, but I fail to see what would be so wrong with the 3.3V rail having a 20ms lead time on the 5 or 12V rails. Does the PC explode? Anyone know why this is bad?

At least hold up time I slightly get. You need a cap with enough power to keep the PSU running to trip the power good signal if the main gets cut. This way the PSU can do whatever it needs to do before losing power. In the grand scheme of things however this isn't very important. At least to me. Ripple and voltage spec mean way more. Perhaps if I lived in a place with bad power I'd be concerned but neither of these matter much in my book.

 

[Karadjgne]

Pretty much. Most overclockers disable c-states as a matter of course, along with every other eco setting, a smooth constant voltage being far preferable to multiple stages and multiple voltages which can create instability with transitions or power levels.

Personally, i only run S3 or higher, I don't bother with ultra deep sleep states.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yes, that is (C6/C7) a "Haswell and newer compatible" issue and disabling C6/C7 in the BIOS should entirely eliminate the problem. The bigger problem is that from what I've seen the only units that don't comply are group regulated models, which means that there are likely OTHER issues possible. Hard to say for sure and really I don't have time to do a lot of research for a unit that is probably not all that great to begin with. But I wouldn't NOT buy the unit ONLY because of the lack of adherence to the Intel spec, especially if it's an AMD based system that doesn't have the same spec adherence requirements. Having only one review, which is at least minimally questionable, makes it difficult to actually assess the worth of these kinds of units. Again, you could probably do worse, but you could certainly do better.

 

[Karadjgne]

It's really a matter of what you can live with. Arguably one of the best series in the last batch of psus was the Evga G2, and the 550w was extremely well received and sold like hotcakes. But nobody bothers to really mention the fact it doesn't pass all the ATX specs. It runs @ 12ms holdup time, and ATX specs say it must be at least 16ms to pass. All that really affects is the type of wave from a UPS, I can live with it, I own a G2 550w.

 

[Mezoxin]

I'm not disagreeing with Intel, but what difference does this make? Maybe it's just because I woke up, but I fail to see what would be so wrong with the 3.3V rail having a 20ms lead time on the 5 or 12V rails. Does the PC explode? Anyone know why this is bad?

I guess that explains it
https://techreport.com/review/24897/the-big-haswell-psu-compatibility-list/

I think I remember lots of users experiencing an issue with the olc Seasonic X series back in the day , it wouldnt power on unless you unplug it from, the power source , it was never explained why, do you think its related ?
the issue did surface at the same time of the release of the haswell
http://www.jonnyguru.com/forums/showthread.php?11038-Seasonic-Platinum-1000W-issue

Personally, i only run S3 or higher, I don't bother with ultra deep sleep states.

Same Here i dont have much use for it

The bigger problem is that from what I've seen the only units that don't comply are group regulated models, which means that there are likely OTHER issues possible. Hard to say for sure and really I don't have time to do a lot of research for a unit that is probably not all that great to begin with. But I wouldn't NOT buy the unit ONLY because of the lack of adherence to the Intel spec, especially if it's an AMD based system that doesn't have the same spec adherence requirements. Having only one review, which is at least minimally questionable, makes it difficult to actually assess the worth of these kinds of units. Again, you could probably do worse, but you could certainly do better.

yeah but that specific dc sequencing test that kitguru performed is relatrively new to their benchmarking procedure and wasnt done for alot of other PSU's such as the focus plus or prime units

I just called the Seasonic supplier again today and they confirmed to me that the maximum warranty they provide for all their products line including the Prime is not 12 or 10 or even 5 years , Its only 3 years !!!
I live in Egypt btw and the supplier is Venus , i have found alot of users unsatisfied with their aftersales services

 

[Karadjgne]

Which warranty. Vendors can have any warranty period they chose to, or are beholden to by laws, the so the vendor/supplier could easily be 3 years, many vendors it's just 1 year. Got exactly nothing to do with manufacturers warranty of upto 12 years on the Primes, that's all Seasonic. Not Venus.

It's a simple procedure. In the first 3 years, anything goes wrong, you take the psu back to Venus. If you do not get resolution, or are refused, you get that in writing and contact Seasonic, send them proof of purchase and the refusal.

After the 3 years, you contact Seasonic directly, again with proof of purchase, or at least the manufacturing date. 0-2yr 364day = Venus, 3yr-12yr = Seasonic.