PZ4 - Game Status

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.empire (More info?)

Whoa! Lots of good [new] info on the "Official Making Of PZ4" page.

http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/bungholio/PZ4-TheMakingOfPZ4.html

(and a tentative update schedule too! -
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/bungholio/PZ4_UpdateSchedule.txt ,
quick start, partial weekends off, group vacation for mid-May, etc..)


I am deep into the testing phase now, getting ready to start inviting peeps
in a few days (for registering and pre-blitzing). BTW, just thought I'd
*warn you*, I got SHEPHERD units in PZ4, for anyone who give a
flock.


-Bungy

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.empire (More info?)

Quote from http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/bungholio/PZ4-TheMakingOfPZ4.html:
BUNGY's SEMI-HIDDEN FORMAT:

- = [ Empire Power Report ] = -
as of Mon Feb 28 21:33:21 2005
sects eff civ mil shell gun pet iron dust oil pln ship unit money
2 ?? ??? ?.?K ?? ? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ? ??M
5 11 91 11K 322 490 21 4 1 3 502 0 18 0 17K
3 ?? ? ?.?K ?? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ?? ? -???
1 ? ??? ?.?K ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??K
4 ? ??? ?.?K ??? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??K
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
worldwide ?? ?? ??K ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ? ??M

ORIGINAL FORMAT:

- = [ Empire Power Report ] = -
as of Mon Feb 28 21:33:21 2005
sects eff civ mil shell gun pet iron dust oil pln ship unit money
2 19 100 3.9K 19 0 0 76 19 57 38 0 12 0 12M
5 11 91 11K 322 490 21 4 1 3 502 0 18 0 17K
3 37 0 7.5K 37 0 0 148 37 111 74 0 11 0 -143
1 3 100 2.1K 111 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 25K
4 2 100 2.0K 122 60 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 25K
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
worldwide 72 47 26K 611 550 25 228 57 171 614 0 20 0 12M

Unfortunately, I think I bumped heads with Markus on this when trying
to get it incorporated into the official server (Sorry Markus!).
I won't get into details on it. What I think I need to do is run a
game with this option, and see if players like or dislike it as-is. I
wanted this option because I wanted something inbetween the
way-too-acurate standard power report and the total-paranoid-hidden
game..

End quote.

Permit me to go into details

Your proposal is a mixup of two ideas, one possibly good and one
probably not. The possibly good one is to mess with the way power
rounds --- many players are unhappy with the amount of information it
discloses. The other one is to mess with the way power prints
numbers. Let me elaborate.

Consider a non-negative number x (my argument can easily be extended
to negative numbers, it just complicates its presentation, so I
don't). Your masked power report prints x as certain combination of
question marks, decimal point and a suffix character.

Such a string represents any of a range of numbers. You get its
inclusive lower bound l by replacing the leftmost question mark with
the digit 1, and all the others with 0. The exclusive upper bound is
10*l. Observe that l is a power of ten.

In other words, your funny string contains the following information:

l <= x < 10*l

Conversely, all x in this range print the same funny string.

Therefore, printing l instead of the string gives *exactly* the same
information. Instead of l, you could choose any other representative
for [l..10*l), say 5*l.

Mapping numbers to your funny string actually consists of two
operations: a rounding operation (truncate to the next power of ten)
and a number formatting operation (print '?' instead of digits).

Your funny formatting operation a bad idea for two reasons:

1. It breaks tools parsing power gratuitously.

2. It only works for one particular way of rounding. What if we find
that rounding to powers of ten is too coarse, and want to try
powers of 4, or powers of 10 times 0.25, 0.5, 0.75 and 1? Can't do
that if we foolishly chose to print '?' instead of digits.

 

[pat]

Archived from groups: rec.games.empire (More info?)

Doug,

Just a few observations I picked up by looking at the web link.

First, I always pictured you as having a woolier beard than you
do (for better integration during your more passionate activities)
Second, was that a can of Mountain Dew? Infidel! (Remember when
pop came in 16 ounce glass bottles in the 8 pack? I drank 7 of
those one night in 1983 studying for a Nuclear Shielding mid-term.
I haven't touched a drop of Dew since.)
Third, I thought you lived in a barn (or a pasture). So much for my
preconceived ideas.
Fourth, unless you make the others more attracktive, everybody will
pick hearts (maybe a few diamonds as people want the inland lakes
for bridges.)
Fifth, does everybody keep a fifth in their desk drawer at work?
Sixth, how expensive are those baby nukes? And what kind of damage
are we talking about?
Seventh, DST is "Daylight Saving Time" (not "Savings". Blame it on
the Kaiser.)
Eighth, that sheep in your front seat looks pretty young. Are you
sure she is 18?
Ninth, how about a nice healthy Empire discussion about what ships
should be able to carry units? I'll start my saying take them off
of DD's and firing platforms (heavy cruisers and BB's).
Tenth, as long as we are opening up the "power report" can of worms,
let's talk about re-doing that too. I'll start with the extreem
position and say get rid of all the columns and just put the
country names in order.

Pat
AKA Overlord (The other deity in Empire)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.empire (More info?)

Damn, these are some excellent observations and questions. I'll
try to answer them.


> First, I always pictured you as having a woolier beard than you
> do (for better integration during your more passionate activities)

you should see my chest and back hair.


> Second, was that a can of Mountain Dew? Infidel! (Remember when
> pop came in 16 ounce glass bottles in the 8 pack? I drank 7 of
> those one night in 1983 studying for a Nuclear Shielding mid-term.
> I haven't touched a drop of Dew since.)

yes, Mountain Dew rulezorz! I cannot remember ever seeing
soda's in 16oz containers, it's all metric now, and who calls soda
'pop' anymore?


> Third, I thought you lived in a barn (or a pasture). So much for my
> preconceived ideas.

I live in farmland Maryland. There are actual sheeps LESS THAN
ONE MILE from my house. Remember these words next time your
wife tries on that new wool sweater and asks how it looks... (as I
might have tried it on already, per se)


> Fourth, unless you make the others more attracktive, everybody will
> pick hearts (maybe a few diamonds as people want the inland lakes
> for bridges.)

I have a plan. Details will be revealed in the RGE game anno monday night.


> Fifth, does everybody keep a fifth in their desk drawer at work?

I cannot speak for everybody.


> Sixth, how expensive are those baby nukes? And what kind of damage
> are we talking about?

Command : show n b
lcm hcm oil rad avail tech $
7kt fission 75 75 75 75 75 155 $ 25000

Command : show n s
blst dam lbs tech $ abilities
7kt fission 3 65 12 155 $ 25000

Command : bomb 666 . s 0,2 -20,0
No escorts...
Using best path 'gggggggggyy'
Using total path 'gggggggggyy'
target sector is -20,0
range to target is 11
jhb B-52 Strato-Fortress #666 standing by
jhb B-52 Strato-Fortress #666 equipped
flying over library/school at -2,2
flying over sea at -4,2
flying over sea at -6,2
flying over sea at -8,2
flying over sea at -10,2
flying over sea at -12,2
flying over sea at -14,2
flying over sea at -16,2
flying over highway at -18,2
flying over highway at -19,1
flying over capital at -20,0
Releasing RV's for groundburst detonation...


K A B O O O O O O M ! in -20,0

did 21% damage in -22,-2
did 21% damage in -20,-2
did 21% damage in -18,-2
did 21% damage in -23,-1
did 32% damage in -21,-1
did 32% damage in -19,-1
did 21% damage in -17,-1
did 21% damage in -24,0
did 32% damage in -22,0
did 65% damage in -20,0
did 32% damage in -18,0
did 21% damage in -16,0
did 21% damage in -23,1
did 32% damage in -21,1
did 32% damage in -19,1
did 21% damage in -17,1
did 21% damage in -22,2
did 21% damage in -20,2
did 21% damage in -18,2


> Seventh, DST is "Daylight Saving Time" (not "Savings". Blame it on
> the Kaiser.)

I'll correct this asap, thanks. BTW, "attracktive" doesn't have a "k" (see #4
above).


> Eighth, that sheep in your front seat looks pretty young. Are you
> sure she is 18?

She didn't complain when I showed her my stick. Unfortunately, she
deflates quickly, I think she got a little prick in her.


> Ninth, how about a nice healthy Empire discussion about what ships
> should be able to carry units? I'll start my saying take them off
> of DD's and firing platforms (heavy cruisers and BB's).

excellent question. That's why I started by taking the unit carrying option
out of the subhunter. So if you want to hunt subs, you gotta build this ship.
If you want to draw harpoons, you gotta build DD's.


> Tenth, as long as we are opening up the "power report" can of worms,
> let's talk about re-doing that too. I'll start with the extreem
> position and say get rid of all the columns and just put the
> country names in order.

I don't like that idea. I think it will break several player's personal tools.
You know what, now that we are on the subject of breaking personal tools,
that's just too flocking bad. Maybe I should use "0" (zero) characters instead
of them funky "?"'s. Goshhh, uhhh, just do a simple replace *, already!


> Pat
> AKA Overlord (The other deity in Empire)

-Bungy

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.empire (More info?)

"Markus Armbruster" <armbru@pond.sub.org> wrote in message
news:87oedi3e2t.fsf@pond.sub.org...
> Quote from
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/bungholio/PZ4-TheMakingOfPZ4.html:
> BUNGY's SEMI-HIDDEN FORMAT:
>
> - = [ Empire Power Report ] = -
> as of Mon Feb 28 21:33:21 2005
> sects eff civ mil shell gun pet iron dust oil pln ship unit
money
> 2 ?? ??? ?.?K ?? ? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ?
??M
> 5 11 91 11K 322 490 21 4 1 3 502 0 18 0
17K
> 3 ?? ? ?.?K ?? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ??
? -???
> 1 ? ??? ?.?K ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
??K
> 4 ? ??? ?.?K ??? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
??K
> ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
> worldwide ?? ?? ??K ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ?
??M
>
> ORIGINAL FORMAT:
>
> - = [ Empire Power Report ] = -
> as of Mon Feb 28 21:33:21 2005
> sects eff civ mil shell gun pet iron dust oil pln ship unit
money
> 2 19 100 3.9K 19 0 0 76 19 57 38 0 12 0
12M
> 5 11 91 11K 322 490 21 4 1 3 502 0 18 0
17K
> 3 37 0 7.5K 37 0 0 148 37 111 74 0 11
0 -143
> 1 3 100 2.1K 111 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
25K
> 4 2 100 2.0K 122 60 4 0 0 0 0 0 2 0
25K
> ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
> worldwide 72 47 26K 611 550 25 228 57 171 614 0 20 0
12M
>
> Unfortunately, I think I bumped heads with Markus on this when trying
> to get it incorporated into the official server (Sorry Markus!).
> I won't get into details on it. What I think I need to do is run a
> game with this option, and see if players like or dislike it as-is. I
> wanted this option because I wanted something inbetween the
> way-too-acurate standard power report and the total-paranoid-hidden
> game..
>
> End quote.
>
> Permit me to go into details
>
> Your proposal is a mixup of two ideas, one possibly good and one
> probably not. The possibly good one is to mess with the way power
> rounds --- many players are unhappy with the amount of information it
> discloses. The other one is to mess with the way power prints
> numbers. Let me elaborate.
>
> Consider a non-negative number x (my argument can easily be extended
> to negative numbers, it just complicates its presentation, so I
> don't). Your masked power report prints x as certain combination of
> question marks, decimal point and a suffix character.
>
> Such a string represents any of a range of numbers. You get its
> inclusive lower bound l by replacing the leftmost question mark with
> the digit 1, and all the others with 0. The exclusive upper bound is
> 10*l. Observe that l is a power of ten.
>
> In other words, your funny string contains the following information:
>
> l <= x < 10*l
>
> Conversely, all x in this range print the same funny string.
>
> Therefore, printing l instead of the string gives *exactly* the same
> information. Instead of l, you could choose any other representative
> for [l..10*l), say 5*l.
>
> Mapping numbers to your funny string actually consists of two
> operations: a rounding operation (truncate to the next power of ten)
> and a number formatting operation (print '?' instead of digits).
>
> Your funny formatting operation a bad idea for two reasons:
>
> 1. It breaks tools parsing power gratuitously.
>
> 2. It only works for one particular way of rounding. What if we find
> that rounding to powers of ten is too coarse, and want to try
> powers of 4, or powers of 10 times 0.25, 0.5, 0.75 and 1? Can't do
> that if we foolishly chose to print '?' instead of digits.

You are overlooking the obvious good points: the change was simple
and the result is masking, not rounding (beyond that which is already
present in the standard code). You saw Ron's code, it was only
about 10 lines and it was professionally implemented - not spaghetti
code.

The effect of the question marks masks the detail. This is more
classification by powers of 10 rather than rounding. I agree that any
digit can be inserted for the ? but that may be misleading by making
players think that it is a form of rounding, which has other implications.
If you are concerned about the 'gratuitious' breaking of tools, simply
replace all '?' with a '3' to obtain an effective log10 rounding.

You are concerned about 'what if we want to try something else?'
Well, we are trying a first attempt. Let us learn from trial-and-error
before you pronounce failure.

Tom

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.empire (More info?)

"Tom Johnson" <1234tjohnsonREMOVE1234@telogy.com> writes:

[...]
> You are concerned about 'what if we want to try something else?'
> Well, we are trying a first attempt. Let us learn from trial-and-error
> before you pronounce failure.
>
> Tom

I'm sorry if my critique came across as pronouncing failure. That was
not my intention.

Rot sent me the patch he created for Doug, and asked whether it could
be included in 4.2.20 as option MASKED. I reviewed the patch and
observed that it mixes up rounding and presentation, that the changed
presentation works only for one particular way of rounding, and that
the best way of rounding is not obvious without further experiments.
And that's the reason why I rejected the patch for 4.2.20 and
recommended experiments with the rounding formula. Which is what Doug
is going to do in PZ4.