Q: Play cards...

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Daneel wrote:
> On 28 Feb 2005 15:02:59 -0800, John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com>
wrote:
> >
> Okay, smartass, I wanted to provide a clear explanation so that
everyone
> can understand the issue.

Sure. My snide comment was not so much aimed at you specifically - a
LOT of people in the last few weeks have been arguing about a wide
range of 'roleplaying logic over game logic' issues - for example, the
people griping because the Abominations are not inherently all combat
monsters with special powers that can kill any other vampire. Sorry
that you took my comment personally.

> Quickie: if a card says "No bleeding is possible
> as long as this card is in play.", then can Kalinda use her special
text
> to bleed at +1bleed at +1 stealth? Not really. No matter what you
do, if a
> card prohibits you from bleeding, you CANNOT bleed, no matter what.
Do I
> need to get any clearer than that?

You don't.

Here's my non-sarcastic counter-example:

If you give a rat the power 'fly through the air as if the rat were a
passenger pigeon', the act of flying would not actually MAKE him a
passenger pigeon, and the fact that passenger pigeons have been extinct
for a hundred years doesn't mean that it's suddenly impossible to
behave in a similar fashion.

Mata Hari gets to play cards in exactly the same fashion as a Camarilla
vampire - even if there ARE no Camarilla vampires, or even if there's
no Camarilla. She doesn't actually BECOME Camarilla even if the
Camarilla exists, so the existence or not is irrelevant.

If someone (not necessarily Daneel) wants a role-play analogy, think of
it not as 'Mata Hari pretends she's Camarilla' but rather 'Mata Hari
has snooped around and stolen/copied the sekrit methods the Camarilla
uses to get stuff done, and uses similar dirty, underhanded tactics to
manipulate society to do her bidding.'

> --
> Bye,
>
> Daneel

-John Flournoy

 

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Colin McGuigan wrote:
> But how come a single Garou can hit for four in a turn, but an entire

> pack of them only hits for three?

And why can you chop up an entire pack of Garou with a Chainsaw, but
not a Gas-Powered Chainsaw? Do they steal gasoline as a strike?

 

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Daneel wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:00:11 -0600, Colin McGuigan
> <maguaSPAM@BGONEspeakeasy.net> wrote:
>
>> How, in your worldview, is a copy of someone previously diablerized
>> allowed to be transferred back into the ready region?
>
> Buzz off. For ONCE I want to maintain a civilized discussion. A mistake
> I won't repreat. 4$$ h013!!11!

If you want to maintain a civilized discussion, what's with the profanity?

--Colin McGuigan

 

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Emmit Svenson wrote:
> Who would get so drunk at a club called Nod that they gave a dog a
> flamethrower? And how would the dog figure out how to use it?

How the dog figured out how to drive the sports bike is what I want to know.

But how come a single Garou can hit for four in a turn, but an entire
pack of them only hits for three?

--Colin McGuigan

 

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Emmit Svenson <emmitsvenson@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Colin McGuigan wrote:
>> How do you go about arsoning the Info Highway?

> Who would get so drunk at a club called Nod that they gave a dog a
> flamethrower? And how would the dog figure out how to use it?

Same way the dog was Concealing a .44.

 

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On 28 Feb 2005 14:30:27 -0800, "Emmit Svenson"
<emmitsvenson@hotmail.com> scrawled:

>Colin McGuigan wrote:
>> Why is there only one Police Department in the entire world?
>
>Why can you buy a Learjet for the price of a Beretta 9mm?

gotta love ebay.

salem
http://www.users.tpg.com.au/adsltqna/VtES/index.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

 

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Emmit Svenson wrote:
> And why can you chop up an entire pack of Garou with a Chainsaw, but
> not a Gas-Powered Chainsaw? Do they steal gasoline as a strike?

How come Goth Bands can't become Famous and go on Concert Tours once
they've been given a Contract?

--Colin McGuigan

 

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LSJ wrote:

>
> Every Camarilla vampire may do so.
> The problem is that there are no other Camarilla vampires.
> All vampires, being not Camarilla, therefore fail to meet
> the requirements of the card.
> Mata Hari's special enables her to meet the requirement,
> however. Any vampire who meets the requirement can play
> the card.

Hmm, ok
I may not agree, but this is a distinct and clear ruling anyway,
and that is enough for me.


>>
>>There is a sematic difference between those two groups, but I don't
>>know if it's supposed to be a semantic difference (ie, if I can do
>>X that require Y then I MUST do X that require Y as if I was Y no
>>matter if such text exists or not).
>
>
> The only difference is that, for the ones whose card space allows
> it, the implicit "as a" is made explicit.
>

Once again I may not agree, but as above a clear and distinct ruling.
Whenever you do X that requires Y you take on all aspects of being
Y no matter if there is supporting cardtext or not. Ok.

That leaves me with the info I need to answer questions locally.
Thanks

Sten During

 

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Frederick Scott wrote:
> I think most people would find it a much different and absolutely
less
> satisfying game without SOME kind of semi-reasonable background. I
don't
> know about 'Dog Poo' - it makes a difference whether you're
substituting
> a different-but-still-reasonable-and-detailed background that just
explains
> the same existing cards in a different way or just the vague
abstraction
> proposed using Hoyle card decks as mentioned above. If the former,
you
> may well be right. If the latter, I disagree.
>
> I don't think background is a good excuse for lousy or unbalanced
card
> design nor that all cards need to be explained perfectly in terms of
the
> game's backstory. But I still think it's an important piece of this
game.

I think it's important primarily in terms of decoration and
inspiration.

Decoration is by far the less important, but having good artwork and
consistent themes certainly makes any game more enjoyable.

Drawing on the background as an inspiration for new cards and rules is
quite a bit more important (and reinforces the themes and decorative
aspects of background as well - a double benefit). Still, the exact
interaction of cards should not be determined by the background, even
if it doesn't disrupt game balance.

John

> Fred

 

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> Since there is no Camarilla (a different effect from all Camarilla
> vampires becoming Independent), cards or effects that are related to the
> Camarilla are unusable.

That's a sensible thought, but that's not what the card says.

 

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> > Quickie: if a card says "No bleeding is possible
> > as long as this card is in play.", then can Kalinda use her special text
> > to bleed at +1bleed at +1 stealth?
>
> False analogy.
>
> Fall of the Camarilla/Fall of the Sabbat do not say "No cards requiring
> Camarilla vampires or Camarilla titles can be played." If they did, the
> pretend-sect/title specials wouldn't function. But since it doesn't say
> that, they work just fine.
>

A more apropriate analogy would be:

Becoming of Even More Annoying, Gehenna Event
All minions have zero levels of Protean.

Ian Forestal and an apropriately carded Black Spiral Buddy could still
play cards requiring Protean.

 

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> > Ahrimanes should have been Scarce, and True Brujah shouldn't have
> > been, because there's more TB running around the World of Darkness
> > than Ahrimanes.
>

During the Revised timeline, yes. Not at the period of time wherein each
game of V:tES starts.

 

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> > A more apropriate analogy would be:
> >
> > Becoming of Even More Annoying, Gehenna Event
> > All minions have zero levels of Protean.
> >
> > Ian Forestal and an apropriately carded Black Spiral Buddy could still
> > play cards requiring Protean.
>
> And if your acting minion had played the action modifier
> Kiss the Gangrel (any vampire with protean attempting
> to block this action goes to torpor, block fails), and
> if Ian played Sonar then Ian would go to torpor.
>

No, only the Sonar would treat Ian as having Protean.

 

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On 1 Mar 2005 07:48:40 -0800, John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Daneel wrote:
>> On 28 Feb 2005 15:02:59 -0800, John Flournoy <carneggy@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> >
>> Okay, smartass, I wanted to provide a clear explanation so that
> everyone
>> can understand the issue.
>
> Sure. My snide comment was not so much aimed at you specifically - a
> LOT of people in the last few weeks have been arguing about a wide
> range of 'roleplaying logic over game logic' issues - for example, the
> people griping because the Abominations are not inherently all combat
> monsters with special powers that can kill any other vampire. Sorry
> that you took my comment personally.

Well, you are generally right about the rpg issue. The card game won't
ever be a perfect reproduction. I was arguing more logic than source
material, though my example probably could've been understood
otherwise. And after being merry and peaceful, I usually tend to be
rough and unpeaceful. Sorry for jumping on you.

>> Quickie: if a card says "No bleeding is possible
>> as long as this card is in play.", then can Kalinda use her special
> text
>> to bleed at +1bleed at +1 stealth? Not really. No matter what you
> do, if a
>> card prohibits you from bleeding, you CANNOT bleed, no matter what.
> Do I
>> need to get any clearer than that?
>
> You don't.
>
> Here's my non-sarcastic counter-example:
>
> If you give a rat the power 'fly through the air as if the rat were a
> passenger pigeon', the act of flying would not actually MAKE him a
> passenger pigeon, and the fact that passenger pigeons have been extinct
> for a hundred years doesn't mean that it's suddenly impossible to
> behave in a similar fashion.

I understand the example. However, let me try to counter it with another
(non-sarcastic) example.

The card club only accepts members. Non-members cannot even observe the
games, go into the cafeteria or otherwise enter. Dorian is not a member,
but he can masquerade as such, and partake in the games in such a manner.
Sadly, after a while the card club goes bankrupt. The assets are sold and
the members become non-members. Dorian can still masquerade as a member
- but that won't rebuild the card club.

> Mata Hari gets to play cards in exactly the same fashion as a Camarilla
> vampire - even if there ARE no Camarilla vampires, or even if there's
> no Camarilla. She doesn't actually BECOME Camarilla even if the
> Camarilla exists, so the existence or not is irrelevant.

To me this isn't an absolute logic. I'm thinking more along the lines
of... Since there is no Camarilla (a different effect from all Camarilla
vampires becoming Independent), cards or effects that are related to the
Camarilla are unusable. Not only because no vampire exists who could
play them (as covered in all Camarilla vampires becoming Independents),
but also because the institution does not exist.

> If someone (not necessarily Daneel) wants a role-play analogy, think of
> it not as 'Mata Hari pretends she's Camarilla' but rather 'Mata Hari
> has snooped around and stolen/copied the sekrit methods the Camarilla
> uses to get stuff done, and uses similar dirty, underhanded tactics to
> manipulate society to do her bidding.'

Which could be done by any ex-Camarilla vampire. Dunno, I'm not sure we
should get into RPG analogies. They just don't work - Mata Hari may
have the ability to masquerade as a Cammie and exploit their networks
and resources, but that won't work in the absence of said networks and
resources. Anything she could do, any Camarilla elder could probably
do better. But I don't think this angle is the right way to go...

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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On 1 Mar 2005 12:41:20 -0800, <firstconformist@aol.com> wrote:

>> Ahrimanes should have been Scarce, and True Brujah shouldn't have
> been,
>> because there's more TB running around the World of Darkness than
>> Ahrimanes.
>
> OK, fair enough. If I were playtesting that set, and knew this, then I
> would have said something to LSJ. But if he hadn't changed it, I
> wouldn't have been heartbroken.

I actually think that True Brujah are scarce because they are hiding.
They try to lay low and keep a low profile. Whereas, Ahrimanes weren't
so rare a few years back - the whole bloodline is now extinct, or
almost extinct, but in older times they were more numerous. AFAIK.

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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In message <opsmx7bnsio6j3lh@news.chello.hu>, Daneel <daniel@eposta.hu>
writes:
> Quickie: if a card says "No bleeding is possible
> as long as this card is in play.", then can Kalinda use her special text
> to bleed at +1bleed at +1 stealth?

False analogy.

Fall of the Camarilla/Fall of the Sabbat do not say "No cards requiring
Camarilla vampires or Camarilla titles can be played." If they did, the
pretend-sect/title specials wouldn't function. But since it doesn't say
that, they work just fine.

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

 

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In message <1109673562.411017.194560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
x5mofr@gmx.de writes:
>John, if you want to play a card game without pictures, flavour text
>and a fictional background, why not play those games that use the cards
>that have written 7, 8, 9, 10, Q, K , A on them.
>
>VTES becomes nothing, if you loose the background (i am not saying,
>that the background decides rule questions!).

Well, playing cards (i.e. a deck of 52 normal cards) don't have the same
strategies and tactics available as V:TES. They're, uh, different
games.

And whilst a lot of people do appreciate the background, there are also
quite a few people who would happily play Dog Poo: The Eternal Struggle,
so long as all the cards interacted in the same way. (For more details,
search Google for references to Dog Poo: The Eternal Struggle.)

--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/

 

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"James Coupe" <james@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message
news:2Cdzmvxf5NJCFwM$@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
> In message <1109673562.411017.194560@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> x5mofr@gmx.de writes:
>>John, if you want to play a card game without pictures, flavour text
>>and a fictional background, why not play those games that use the cards
>>that have written 7, 8, 9, 10, Q, K , A on them?
>>
>>VTES becomes nothing, if you loose the background (i am not saying,
>>that the background decides rule questions!).
....
> And whilst a lot of people do appreciate the background, there are also
> quite a few people who would happily play Dog Poo: The Eternal Struggle,
> so long as all the cards interacted in the same way. (For more details,
> search Google for references to Dog Poo: The Eternal Struggle.)

I think most people would find it a much different and absolutely less
satisfying game without SOME kind of semi-reasonable background. I don't
know about 'Dog Poo' - it makes a difference whether you're substituting
a different-but-still-reasonable-and-detailed background that just explains
the same existing cards in a different way or just the vague abstraction
proposed using Hoyle card decks as mentioned above. If the former, you
may well be right. If the latter, I disagree.

I don't think background is a good excuse for lousy or unbalanced card
design nor that all cards need to be explained perfectly in terms of the
game's backstory. But I still think it's an important piece of this game.

Fred

 

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Gregory Stuart Pettigrew wrote:

>
> A more apropriate analogy would be:
>
> Becoming of Even More Annoying, Gehenna Event
> All minions have zero levels of Protean.
>
> Ian Forestal and an apropriately carded Black Spiral Buddy could still
> play cards requiring Protean.

And if your acting minion had played the action modifier
Kiss the Gangrel (any vampire with protean attempting
to block this action goes to torpor, block fails), and
if Ian played Sonar then Ian would go to torpor.

Sten During

 

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On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:30:22 -0500, Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
<etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote:

>> Since there is no Camarilla (a different effect from all Camarilla
>> vampires becoming Independent), cards or effects that are related to
>> the
>> Camarilla are unusable.
>
> That's a sensible thought, but that's not what the card says.

Indeed. What does "There is no Camarilla" mean in your interpretation?
We know that it is different from "All Camarilla vampires are considered
Independent". It is a separate sentence, without any parentheses. So it
probably does something different. Something that does not have to do
anything with the part covered in the second sentence...

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:34:06 -0500, Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
<etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote:

> A more apropriate analogy would be:
>
> Becoming of Even More Annoying, Gehenna Event
> All minions have zero levels of Protean.

Add "There is no Protean."

> Ian Forestal and an apropriately carded Black Spiral Buddy could still
> play cards requiring Protean.

No they couldn't; there is no Protean. How can you play a Protean card,
if Protean suddenly *poof* disappeared from the universe?

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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Daneel wrote:
> Indeed. What does "There is no Camarilla" mean in your interpretation?
> We know that it is different from "All Camarilla vampires are considered
> Independent". It is a separate sentence, without any parentheses. So it
> probably does something different. Something that does not have to do
> anything with the part covered in the second sentence...

Not true. The sentences are a matched pair -- they simply tell
you what occurs. The first is the idea. The second is the practical
implementation.

See Jimmy Dunn, Ex Nihilo, or Blood Clots for similar.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

 

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Daneel wrote:

> On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 18:34:06 -0500, Gregory Stuart Pettigrew
> <etherial@sidehack.sat.gweep.net> wrote:
>
>> A more apropriate analogy would be:
>>
>> Becoming of Even More Annoying, Gehenna Event
>> All minions have zero levels of Protean.
>
> Add "There is no Protean."

"There is no Protean. Minions with Protean have an equal number of levels in
Auspex instead."

Ian could still play Horrific Countenance in that case.

>> Ian Forestal and an apropriately carded Black Spiral Buddy could still
>> play cards requiring Protean.
>
> No they couldn't; there is no Protean. How can you play a Protean card,
> if Protean suddenly *poof* disappeared from the universe?

Card text. Ian can play cards "as if" he has the basic level of
Protean, even though that doesn't exist.

Otherwise, a card requiring nothing (e.g., a nonexistent Discipline)
could be played by anyone (since it lacks requirements).

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

 

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On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 01:05:26 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:

> Daneel wrote:
>> Indeed. What does "There is no Camarilla" mean in your interpretation?
>> We know that it is different from "All Camarilla vampires are
>> considered
>> Independent". It is a separate sentence, without any parentheses. So it
>> probably does something different. Something that does not have to do
>> anything with the part covered in the second sentence...
>
> Not true. The sentences are a matched pair -- they simply tell
> you what occurs. The first is the idea. The second is the practical
> implementation.
>
> See Jimmy Dunn, Ex Nihilo, or Blood Clots for similar.

Does that mean that "There is no Camarilla" was intended to mean no more
than "Camarilla vampires are Independent"?

--
Bye,

Daneel

 

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Daneel wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 01:05:26 GMT, LSJ <vtesrepSPAM@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Daneel wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed. What does "There is no Camarilla" mean in your interpretation?
>>> We know that it is different from "All Camarilla vampires are
>>> considered
>>> Independent". It is a separate sentence, without any parentheses. So it
>>> probably does something different. Something that does not have to do
>>> anything with the part covered in the second sentence...
>>
>>
>> Not true. The sentences are a matched pair -- they simply tell
>> you what occurs. The first is the idea. The second is the practical
>> implementation.
>>
>> See Jimmy Dunn, Ex Nihilo, or Blood Clots for similar.
>
> Does that mean that "There is no Camarilla" was intended to mean no more
> than "Camarilla vampires are Independent"?

By way of implementation, yes.
If it meant more, then the second sentence would be non-sensical.

See also Jimmy Dunn, et al.

--
LSJ (vtesrep@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/