R600: Finally DX10 Hardware from ATI

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Either way, it's looking like the R600 has no real place of it's own in the market at present, certainly not at the current price anyway.
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I don't think the 2900 XT is all that terrible, but it'd have to get at least a few bucks below the price of an 8800 GTS 640 before I'd recommend it.

If Ati/Amd is smart, they'll undercut the 8800 GTS 640 by a notable margin, and release an HD 2900 XL to compete with the 8800 GTS 320 that is also cheaper.

Only way the 2900 is going to get any street cred at this point is with a lower price...
 
Either way, it's looking like the R600 has no real place of it's own in the market at present, certainly not at the current price anyway.
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I don't think the 2900 XT is all that terrible, but it'd have to get at least a few bucks below the price of an 8800 GTS 640 before I'd recommend it.

If Ati/Amd is smart, they'll undercut the 8800 GTS 640 by a notable margin, and release an HD 2900 XL to compete with the 8800 GTS 320 that is also cheaper.

Only way the 2900 is going to get any street cred is with a lower price...

Exactly. Win some consumers with the wallet, and then make some great driver enhancements to make them really feel they have a bargain.

A good formula for sucess.

Sadly for me, I was one of those that waited and now having seen the results I'm not gonig to buy either 8800 or 2900. I'd be close to buying an 8800 but I don't like the lack of onboard HD support, unlike the 8600.

So it's next next generation cards for me :)
 
Good point Sir.

What's interesting (and quite laughable) is that people may recommend or buy this card as more "futureproof". I've never heard anything so funny. By the time that "future" comes, there is already a new card that beats it handily. It's dreaming really. For ATI/users to think this card is more "futureproof" than the 8800's is laugable. However, it's also laughable if 8800 owners think the same. It's not fanboyism.....it's product and market trends and fact: by the time DX10 games come out, you can bet there will be the refresh models showing up for NV at least, or very soon thereafter.

Saying this card is more futureproof is like buying a 7900GTO last fall because it was a great performer at a great price and saying it's more "futureproof" than getting a 7900GT. The GTO is currently getting spanked by the new cards, it's the way graphics cards go, that's the reality of it. Come on, who EVER does that? It's the most asinine thing I've heard around here. Or maybe better yet, I'll buy an E6400 instead of an E6300 C2D because it's more futureproof because I can overclock it higher because of the higher multiplier. Please. The absurdity of logic is astounding if anyone makes such claims.

Using a "but card A is more futureproof than card B" argument is foolish, ESPECIALLY if it's a brand new card that's released 6 months behind the competitor. Come on, NV is already looking to its refresh and next round of products, does anyone really think they care about this round now? The 8800GTS 320 is a POPULAR card because it has amazing performance at a very good price point. It easily handles DX9 games. And by the time hardcore DX10 games are out, the 8900 series will be out or soon coming. Will ATI have their launch then, or be another 6 months behind?

Sorry, but it's not about this round. ATI already lost back this round in the fall of 2006. Fine, move on. It's the NEXT round that counts. Where will each company be? That's the key.
 
I dunno....

I'm still running the "flop" X1800XT 512MB card. Bought it for $275 CAN.

This card still kicks ass and it was considered too little too late.

People are so quick to judge in this instant gratification world we live in.
 
From VR-Zone

As said before, I had results from both the Catalyst 8.36 and Catalyst 8.37 Drivers. How did performance improve between this small driver jump of 0.01 version?

Taking a setting at 1600x1200 with 16xAF, I saw a major increase in performance, particularly Company Of Heroes and Quake 4. Performance went up by 11% on COH and 42% on Quake 4! This shows that the drivers is still very raw on this card, with just a minor driver revision boosting up performance that much, it gives us quite a lot of hope for a fair bit of improvement to come. Let's hope for that!

Link
VR-Zone Conclusion for HD2900 XT
 
OK OK My turn! 8) :tongue:
AMD/ATI HD 2900XT is an awesome beast.no doubt! :twisted:
All of you agree that it has some serious(?) driver issue. :?
With the current drivers, IF it costs about 350~375$ it would be a good buy.
It doesn't have to stand against 8800GTX cause it's much cheaper!
Still it can win 8800GTS 640MB in some(?) tests!
The fact is :
It doesn't deserve that much waiting i believe... :?

Here are the answers to some of your main questions:

Q: How much power do i need to have a full stable HD2900XT(none OC'ed) system :?:
A: Something like this will be good enough(not overkill though :!: )
5y8mb1t.jpg


Q: I heard that HD2900XT is so quiet.Is this true :?:
A: Yes my friend 8) .It's as quiet as this!
53yn13s.jpg


Q: I have lots of money.witch one to go? 8800GTX/Ultra or HD2900XT :?:
A: That's the dumbest question that i have ever heard! :roll: even a day old baby knows that single HD2900XT is at least 2~3x SLI'ed 8800GTX/Ultra! :roll:

Q: I heard that AMD is going to release a new driver that can double the HD2900XT's performance 😀 (ATI Fanboy).Is this true?
A: Yes.It's true. 😀 Here is a picture of the leader of the AMD/ATI's driver writers team!
4pczu3m.jpg


Q: Why it took AMD 6 more months to release the HD2900XT :?:
A: Cause they were enjoying Multiplayer Supreme Commander(on some SLI'ed 8800GTX system)instead of making graphics cards! :?

Q: Final word?
A: Go buy HD2900XT! 8)
 
I think there is more people than me who would cheerfully skip legacy support for an awesome DX10 experience. This wishy-washy generation of graphics which doesn't know which leg to stand on can't be the best way to go. Is there any future for a pure DX10 system that does away with DX9 for the extra performance and more power efficiency? And by future I mean this year. Does even vista work whithout DX9? If not pure performance can't be had.
 
Ditto..that post was quite a waste of 30 seconds of my time.

Anyways having seen the price cuts on the GTS and realizing the difference, I have reevaluated my take on this a bit. Barring a major jump in improvement with new Drivers for the 2900XT or a hefty price cut, the 8800GTS 320 is the better buy.

I still think this release may not be bad for AMD/ATI. It definitely shows us the road they are headed down. This means if all the kinks get worked out soon, we can be looking forward to some great new card releases.
 
I think there is more people than me who would cheerfully skip legacy support for an awesome DX10 experience. This wishy-washy generation of graphics which doesn't know which leg to stand on can't be the best way to go. Is there any future for a pure DX10 system that does away with DX9 for the extra performance and more power efficiency? And by future I mean this year. Does even vista work whithout DX9? If not pure performance can't be had.
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Is anyone else a little frustrated ATM in the PC gaming world?

I was running Vista to get ready for DX10. I loved it at first as it played all my existing games okay (even old ones and emulators lol) and recorded my TV shows, but eventually went back to XP-MCE.

I was getting annoyed at the constant disk activity (even after disabling indexing, Defender, etc etc etc), laggy online gameplay in games like SF2 and reduced framerates in most of my games (especially in SC😀A)

Now I get to look forward to putting Vista back on and then buying a lesser card from ATi, which MAY be great in DX10 and MAY get drivers as good as their Vista X1K drivers. OR I could buy a currently superior card with inferior Vista driver support and potentially weaker DX10 shading power. And either way my existing games will start sucking again. LOL

Anyone running a Core 2 and 8800GTX with Vista and having an awesome gaming experience? Last time I tried that for a customer the drivers were junk. If so it may be time to dump this 2.9 Opty and X1800XT while saying goodbye to the idea of an 2900XT for my Xpress 3200.
 
I dunno....

I'm still running the "flop" X1800XT 512MB card. Bought it for $275 CAN.

This card still kicks ass and it was considered too little too late.

People are so quick to judge in this instant gratification world we live in.
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Excellent example card, the X1800XT is still up there in the FPS for almost anything you throw at it at 1600x1200 or less, so it's fine. If it were me I'd keep that guy and consider upgrading when the next-gen cards come out next year--but that's just me. Heh, I just upgraded from the ATI x700 Pro 128MB card, if that tells you anything :)
 
I just love it how all of you people that go out and buy video cards that just come out and complain that you have no DX10. Why don't you people wait until DX10 is proven? So for all of you 8800 owners I say this: Nice DX9 card you got there!
 
I do, and I'm not buying this one.

This is pretty much what most of us knew about the next AMD/ATI GPU. AMD/ATI are now officially a full year behind in the race. So now it's CPU time? If the new CPUs are a "match or worse" affair then it's pretty sure bet that AMD/ATI move to salvage mode.

But without any DX10 software or good DX10 tests, does anyone know how these cards (nVidia) include will really perform? The ATI on paper looked to be a great DX10.

But even with the unknown of DX10, nVidia have 6 more months to yet again leap frog ATI just in time for the Xmas season and releases of DX10 games. Unless ATI/AMD have managed to work completely in secret on some next gen hardware that has a VERY short design to delivery cycle, I'm just not seeing how ATI/AMD plan to ever recover all that lost revenue?

I hate to see this -- without the "race" the consumer ultimately loses. And it appears the race is over.
 
It's not doomsday for ATI. The race isn't over. This round, NV won. Next round, ATI could win. That's what competition is. Everyone wants to make this out like it's the end of ATI or something. Quit being so dramatic.
 
I do, and I'm not buying this one.

This is pretty much what most of us knew about the next AMD/ATI GPU. AMD/ATI are now officially a full year behind in the race. So now it's CPU time? If the new CPUs are a "match or worse" affair then it's pretty sure bet that AMD/ATI move to salvage mode.

But without any DX10 software or good DX10 tests, does anyone know how these cards (nVidia) include will really perform? The ATI on paper looked to be a great DX10.

But even with the unknown of DX10, nVidia have 6 more months to yet again leap frog ATI just in time for the Xmas season and releases of DX10 games. Unless ATI/AMD have managed to work completely in secret on some next gen hardware that has a VERY short design to delivery cycle, I'm just not seeing how ATI/AMD plan to ever recover all that lost revenue?

I hate to see this -- without the "race" the consumer ultimately loses. And it appears the race is over.
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Fact of the matter is Intel was years late with the Core 2 duo if you look at it that way. For years AMD owned the pentium with the Athlons. Now, the tide has turned. AMD will come out with thier new stuff and the tide will turn again. Do you understand? And yes whenever a company comes out with a new product that is superior to it's competition, the competition will lose money untill they come out with a new product. It's the way business works. Unfortunately this and many other forums are jam packed with impatient gamers and such who have no idea about business, yet they feel compelled to try to explain to us how one company or another is going to fail becase of competition which is completely ignorant. This is going to go on untill the earth gets sucked into the sun... if you believe that.
 
It's not doomsday for ATI. The race isn't over. This round, NV won. Next round, ATI could win. That's what competition is. Everyone wants to make this out like it's the end of ATI or something. Quit being so dramatic.
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Gary Busey, I partied with you once though, I doubt you remember. You also trumped my point with a lot less words.
 
Ok, so nobody buys DX10 cards -- so who exactly is making them "proven" if you recommend nobody buy them (wait and see)?? Don't follow your logic at all.

Futureproof really isn't applicable in this industry, never has been and never will be. Futureproof really just means one is willing to "live with it" for at least a year.

The market (or at least the focus of many that post on TG) appears to be "Bang for the buck" -- unfortunately the latest ATI card doesn't appear to be that. The way this normally works is that company that produces the fastest top end card can also produce the best bang for the buck card.
 
"Making them proven" would be a DX10 platform to run them on, i.e. true DX10 games. And your "company that makes the fastest top end card can also produce the best bang for your buck card" logic doesn't make any sense, nor does your "that's how this usually works" assumption.


And this isn't a flame so don't take offense to it. We're having a discussion.
 
Ok, so nobody buys DX10 cards -- so who exactly is making them "proven" if you recommend nobody buy them (wait and see)?? Don't follow your logic at all.

Futureproof really isn't applicable in this industry, never has been and never will be. Futureproof really just means one is willing to "live with it" for at least a year.

The market (or at least the focus of many that post on TG) appears to be "Bang for the buck" -- unfortunately the latest ATI card doesn't appear to be that. The way this normally works is that company that produces the fastest top end card can also produce the best bang for the buck card.
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What is there not to understand? Why buy an unproven DX10 product with no DX10 applications or support? Well, other than the fact that they do really well with DX9 apps. Why is "wait and see" not logical in this situation? I really don't understand your logic sir, however I do agree with the second paragraph... well done.
 
If everyone plays the wait and see, then nothing will get proven -- because everyone is waiting. Vista is the DX10 platform -- maybe WinXP DX10 version if Microsoft cave to the consumer pressure (still a remote possibility).

But not sure why the platform is that relevant. The games/apps that will use DX10 will be the proving grounds (not the OS platform) of just how good the DX10 hardware is. The first round of DX10 titles most likely will not fully optimize or utilize all aspects of DX10 as the learning process will continue. Just as in DX9, developers learn better ways over time to accomplish a task and how the hardware responds to those ways can also influence the methods used in a game/app.

"Wait and see" is a good approach, but maybe I mis-understood you -- we still need the bleeding edgers (such as myself and others) to go buy the latest and greatest.

TG'ers have traditionally jumped all over people that get the latest and greatest, but at the same time say "Wait and See" -- it's a contradiction.

Top end designs filter down to bang for the buck lines -- it's the design that's winning the fight and that's why who produces the best performing GPU also captures the real meat of the market "the best bang for the buck" group.

I long since stopped being concerned about what is and isn't a flame. Just as I rarely believe anything til I have it and use it myself. This is one of those cases where I'll skip the next best thing because it doesn't do anything for me here and now. Sorta like Vista -- just doesn't do anything for me so it gets skipped until it does.
 
The point is, though, that you can't prove anything when you don't have DX10 applications and games to prove it on. Consumers going out and buy these new cards won't prove anything about DX10 performance, which is supposed to be the major selling point with these cards. That's where the "wait and see" approach comes in.
 
I agree that it's impossible to consider anything as 'future proof', but as mentioned, many people are buying for the long haul so if one does better in certainn aspects of a DX10 future they might want to take that into consideration when buying, just like the R9700 was better long term, the GF6800 for long term, and the X1900 for longer term. We still don't know which current design plays best with future games because we still don't know how people will code for them, if they simply tack on DX10 to an underlying DX9 game where it's not replacing shader code, then we may find that the benefits aren't realized until long after the G80/R600 have been replaced even by the next mid-range, but few people can wait that long to find out.

IMO the final straw will be if a good solid killer APP like Crysis, Halo2PC, or UT3 hit the shelves, the moment the final reviews come in for hardware on those games, bam shopping rush for whomever does them better.

Right now people have the luxury of navel gazing because there's little their current cards can't do except move the sliders a bit (or HDR or HD+AA, etc), but when those games come out, it's a whole new story, just like HL2 and D3.
 
From what I've heard Crysis really taxes the hell out of 2 8800's in SLI or 2 2900's in CF. Once these games come out people will be begging for new cards.
 
It's not doomsday for ATI. The race isn't over. This round, NV won. Next round, ATI could win. That's what competition is. Everyone wants to make this out like it's the end of ATI or something. Quit being so dramatic.
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Yep! I agree. The NV is the king at this moment.

We all also have to remember, as has been said before, that R600 is more depended on driver. It's more complex than n80 and need very good driver to feed all those 320 processing units. In some games it can do it at this moment, in most games it does not... So you can expect better performace in mainstream games (sooner or later), but if you play more "original" games, the NV is going to beat ATI with it's hands tide behind...
All in all we now have some competition, hopefully much more in future!
 
I think we naturally see things diferently than the average buyer. We are enthusiasts, people in the know, if you will. We can afford to wait and see because we know what were doing. Theres going to be bleeding edge enthusiasts, fanboy enthusiasts and the like. They will be the ones that start it all moving. Then the average Joe, who doesnt know, he makes his impact too. And dont forget those who HAVE to upgrade, bad card. New game, crap card whatever. All in all Im waiting as well. If the drivers improve the product, if the price comes down, then hell yes Im buyin. Especially if theres a WC or a HIS with a better and quieter cooler. I havnt the need to wait, as my 1900 does the job for the most part. But I will be upgrading, and when I do, maybe I will have a better, clearer picture of what DX10 needs, what maybe new cards are to come, and then Ill get what I want
 
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