News Sales of Desktop Graphics Cards Hit 20-Year Low

[Tac 25]

I wasn't talking primarily about eSports. I expect all game developers build games for the market that exists. If they see opportunities to add game enhancements that truly impact the experience and the hardware people are using has shifted from before, the potential definitely exists for people on older, lower-end hardware to get disadvantaged.

I thought you were referring to e-sport because you quoted InvalidError's post. It was his reply to my post which talk about a game being used in tournaments. You removing the e-sport word from his post does not remove the fact that his post was originally a reply to mine.

it was replied to me this way

Spoiler

you just removed the first sentence when you quoted it.

Spoiler

 

[RodroX]

....
Oops, can't agree with this. While you're right about better yields and increasing capacity leading to some cost reductions, N5 (and whatever variant Nvidia is using) involves more production steps. That means each wafer ties up the production equipment for longer, and the production equipment keeps getting more expensive for each smaller node. The result is a much higher price floor for newer nodes than we've seen in the past.
....

My point was, and still is, that what you wrote, the new node, equipment usage, etc. , its not enough (proportionally) for the increased price we are seeing in the newer retail cards.

 

[spongiemaster]

You don't need to be broke to care about $200, you can have principles to stand by and refuse to give AMD or Nvidia more money than you absolutely have to or none at all by buying used.

He's pretty much right. I'm not paying $200 for a burger, but you going to say the same thing to Ford and GM? Model T sold for about $250. I'm not giving them my money until their cars are down to that price range again. Gaming is a recreational activity, and the market has moved. If $200 is breaking the bank for you for a gaming GPU, then it's time for new hobby.

 

[spongiemaster]

My point was, and still is, that what you wrote, the new node, equipment usage, etc. , its not enough (proportionally) for the increased price we are seeing in the newer retail cards.

4090 is $100 more than the 3090, about 7%, and cheaper than the 3090Ti. How is its price not "proportionally" correct or unjustifiable?

 

[spongiemaster]

I mean, could the dramatically increasing costs be a contributing factor?

Though it is a contributing factor, it probably isn't as significant as many of assuming. The biggest reason for the drop in demand is that mining allowed so many gamers to buy above their typical tier so they have taken themselves out of the usual upgrade cycle. There just isn't that mass of gamers looking to upgrade regardless of prices. Since these are Q3 results, then all the ballers at the top of the food chain weren't buying either because they were waiting on Ada from Nvidia. There are no budget options, the mass market is happy with what they have and isn't upgrading and the topend is waiting for the new gen. No one was looking to buy in Q3.

 

[Ar558]

Shock! Prices go through roof combined with the crypto crash. I hope it continues and nVidia and AMD are force to price things at a vaguely affordable level.

 

[RodroX]

4090 is $100 more than the 3090, about 7%, and cheaper than the 3090Ti. How is its price not "proportionally" correct or unjustifiable?

Well.... of course ....if you stand from the point of view that the usd 1500 ("MSRP") of the RTX 3090 is reasonable, then the RTX 4090 is very well priced to.

For me it isn't.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

Nobody is saying that they shouldn’t make any money, they should. They just shouldn’t price gouge because it’s wrong.

 

[spongiemaster]

Well.... of course ....if you stand from the point of view that the usd 1500 ("MSRP") of the RTX 3090 is reasonable, then the RTX 4090 is very well priced to.

For me it isn't.

You're moving the goal posts. Your quote was the prices increases weren't justified based on the increase in production costs. Whether or not you liked the prices last generation is irrelevant to the point you made.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

You know, I must say I give GPU buyers a hard time but I like to buy nice expensive phones. I guess if I use my GPU all the time like gamers do and it would be worth it. As it is, I use my phone for everything including two factor authentication for everything And all my web browsing and forum browsing so for me it’s worth it to have a nice super fast phone. And 1200 bucks for a decent phone isn’t bad considering they last for 6 to 8 years. And even longer if you replace the battery.

so I think 1500 isn’t out of the ballpark for today’s prices sadly, as it is. Still, most people are going to have a hard time coming up with that cash.

 

[RodroX]

You're moving the goal posts. Your quote was the prices increases weren't justified based on the increase in production costs. Whether or not you liked the prices last generation is irrelevant to the point you made.

Fair enough. But my post (if you go to the first one, which then followed onto the other one) was mainly about the RTX 4080 high price. The RTX 3080FE MSRP was u$699.... I think.

 

[citral23]

People compare Apple to Oranges, for a very, very long time (I mean since year 2000 or so) all we had/cared about was 1080p@60 unless large pocket/enthusiast and only relatively recently could we get our hands on 3440x1440@144 for 400-500€ with GPUs capable of driving them. It's a whopping 2.5x more pixels to push at a whopping 2.4x more refresh.

If people want to compare apples to apples they should compare the 280€ RX6600 to the RX580, not a 4090 that can run 1080p at a gazillion fps to the gtx1660

In that perspective, I personally find a 3060/6700XT priced fine for what it delivers, that is 3440x1440@100-144fps.

It's not 720p potato gaming

 

[bit_user]

My point was, and still is, that what you wrote, the new node, equipment usage, etc. , its not enough (proportionally) for the increased price we are seeing in the newer retail cards.

I don't know enough to say what impact each of those has, but I doubt you do either.

Another factor: die size. Since the RTX 2000 series, Nvidia has shifted towards larger dies and higher pricing naturally comes with it.

 

[lmcnabney]

He's pretty much right. I'm not paying $200 for a burger, but you going to say the same thing to Ford and GM? Model T sold for about $250. I'm not giving them my money until their cars are down to that price range again. Gaming is a recreational activity, and the market has moved. If $200 is breaking the bank for you for a gaming GPU, then it's time for new hobby.

This is the kind of attitude that shrank PC gaming to the point that most games were console-only (about 10-15 years ago). You keep shrinking the PC gamer community and the market will respond.

While well-heeled gamers may drop over $2k on their rig they still pay the same for games. Game developers care about quantity of sales. When half of the PC gamers change to consoles you are going to be unhappy when most of the new games won't play on your $2k rig.

 

[Ogotai]

It'd be crazy if Sony ported WINE to PS5. Then, you could theoretically play most of your Windows games on it.

you could, but its the same thing, why spend the cash on a console when i already have a comp that does it now ?

 

[ak47jar3d]

Reason: shade complication stutter. Thanks UE4!

 

[Mngereso]

At this pricing level, I'm considering just being a used GPU gamer. I'll wait till the next generation of GPUs release then buy the old gen at an acceptable price.
I have a 3080 and I would love to continue buying and owning Nvidia XX80 series cards (or AMD equivalents) but at these prices it's just not possible.
Either that or pick up a new hobby and give up on PC gaming...

 

[Sleepy_Hollowed]

When was 300-500 ever flagship tier? The 1080 was like 650+

I bought the 1080 about a year after release date for $450 USD, but, I was on a waitlist. That GPU back then was still not available. You might be thinking of the 1080 TI.

 

[sabicao]

I mean, could the dramatically increasing costs be a contributing factor?

THIS!

I would buy a new card just for kicks, but I am doing my part in fighting this insane price hike, by NOT buying any new cards until flagships get back to 750$, tops.

 

[chalabam]

I don't know where "here" is for you, but most of the inflation we've been seeing globally wasn't caused by that. Certainly, there are some exceptions where runaway-inflation truly has been occurring, but they don't use the USD or Euro.


I think we're well past the era of generous pandemic relief packages, super-low interest rates, and post-pandemic stimulus. So, I don't expect to see more government-fueled inflation in most developed countries.

Look at the chart of money printed (And that was before the Ukraine war)

 

[nick5k]

As Intel enters market of discrete GPUs, Nvidia strengthens its positions, but AMD weakens.

Sales of Desktop Graphics Cards Hit 20-Year Low : Read more

And yet thanks to scalpers finding a high end video card is near impossible

 

[Daniel Revas]

I mean, could the dramatically increasing costs be a contributing factor?

Of course, Nvidia's strategy of keeping the price of previous generation cards didn't help.
Not to mention that in the current economy who wants to drop $900 USD to $1600 USD for a new graphics card? Nothing being available in the $300 - $500 range for current gen doesn't help either. That is where most people live.

 

[DavidLejdar]

The pricing certainly seems to have a role. Not really that a new occurence for flagship GPUs though. In particular the GTX Titan came with a launch price of $999 in the year 2013, and the GTX Titan Z came with a launch price of $2,999 in 2014.

On the other hand, there is the argument of: "In 2015, the GTX 980 launched for $549 and the GTX 980 Ti launched for $649 - and look at the prices of the second tier now!". And it sure makes one wonder if that price difference can be explained only by inflation and by use of more refined hardware.

I don't find it to be a complete disaster at mid-tier though. Recently I picked up a GPU and a screen for 1440p gaming at less than what a PS5 would have cost me. Which isn't to say that it is cheap as such. But counted for 20 months, the monthly cost for a hobby is not that high, despite relatively low income (I don't have a car or smartphone though, and I don't do loot-boxes, so no expense there). The increased cost of living was a reason to not go for a higher tier nevertheless. But this issue is more of a political topic than just about 3 companies.

And another factor sure seems to be the here also mentioned issue of not as much a need to upgrade GPU for new game releases, in particular when many are happy to stick to 1080p gaming. There arguably is still some potential there though, in terms of when someone would release a GPU at the power of a RTX 3080 with only up to 200W needed and a bit cheaper, that may be quite encouraging to go for an upgrade.

 

[in_the_loop]

The pricing certainly seems to have a role. Not really that a new occurence for flagship GPUs though. In particular the GTX Titan came with a launch price of $999 in the year 2013, and the GTX Titan Z came with a launch price of $2,999 in 2014.

On the other hand, there is the argument of: "In 2015, the GTX 980 launched for $549 and the GTX 980 Ti launched for $649 - and look at the prices of the second tier now!". And it sure makes one wonder if that price difference can be explained only by inflation and by use of more refined hardware.

I don't find it to be a complete disaster at mid-tier though. Recently I picked up a GPU and a screen for 1440p gaming at less than what a PS5 would have cost me. Which isn't to say that it is cheap as such. But counted for 20 months, the monthly cost for a hobby is not that high, despite relatively low income (I don't have a car or smartphone though, and I don't do loot-boxes, so no expense there). The increased cost of living was a reason to not go for a higher tier nevertheless. But this issue is more of a political topic than just about 3 companies.

And another factor sure seems to be the here also mentioned issue of not as much a need to upgrade GPU for new game releases, in particular when many are happy to stick to 1080p gaming. There arguably is still some potential there though, in terms of when someone would release a GPU at the power of a RTX 3080 with only up to 200W needed and a bit cheaper, that may be quite encouraging to go for an upgrade.

The Titan class of cards weren't really flagship cards. They were more like one-offs 'Freaks of cards that just used ALL available CUDA-cores for a generation.
The 4090 is NOT a Titan class card since it isn't using all the CUDA cores available for Ada Lovelace AD102, only 16384 out of a possible 18432 cuda cores!
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-reveals-secrets-of-ada-lovelace-gpus
So, if Nvidia releases a ridiculous top-tier card for the AD102(like the Titans of past), it would probably cost well beyond $3000!

 

[lmcnabney]

Look at the chart of money printed (And that was before the Ukraine war)

That chart is fiction.
Here is an actual .gov page and the amount of currency is just a tad bit over $2T.
I'm sure the good folks at tradingeconomics.com have some Crypto to sell you based upon this fake fear.