Santorum's take on church vs state

[johnsonma]

The employer already does pay a certain % or amount. The idea that your health insurance should be provided by your employer even as a certain % needs to go bye bye. Your employer pays you, and you decide what health insurance and options you receive. Hell, right now I have more control over my car insurance than I do my health insurance. Why is this? Government regulations.

I should be able to get health insurance from a company in Germany if I wanted to. But that choice is denied me. Why? Government regulations.

Free it up, and the problems, and costs, will be solved.

As I said before, market forces have been slowly and systematically removed from the healthcare industry over the past 40-50 years by government regulations. By design I might add so we can finally have the solve-all known as Obamacare.

Typical rhetoric OMG. Get that darn government out of my medicare!! You are completely right, these last 40-50 years has been part of the master plan for Barrack Obama to come in and save the day, give me a break OMG.

This is the hard truth with healthcare, its our own fault. Obesity and diabetes naturally lead to more health concerns and are the biggest problems facing our healthcare system at this time. Not to mention that prescriptions drugs have become a cure all for every little thing. Regulations are not the sole reason for increases costs, your delusional if you think so. The problem is much more than just government meddling. Medicare actually runs more efficiently that public healthcare.

Take a look at this
http://www.businessinsider.com/whats-wrong-with-the-healthcare-system2010-3#

Do you approach every problem the same way? Less government will fix it, over and over and over again. Can't blame the government for everything, even if you really want to.

 

[johnsonma]

So, could I be elected president with such common sense ideas or would I have a better chance if I just kept offering free stuff to the masses?

You underestimate the complexity of issues a president is faced with on a daily basis.

 

[johnsonma]

Sorry, your just plain wrong.

What rhetoric? Ever since the government has gotten involved with healthcare the costs have steadily risen.

It is common knowledge that nationalized healthcare has been the dream of the progressive movement in America for over a hundred years. I can understand your opposition to my ideas. You agree with the progressive agenda. Seems plain to me we'll never agree.

As I said before. I have more control over my car insurance than I do my health insurance. Why is this? Governement regulations.

Your argument for just about everything is that its the government's fault. Its the rhetoric that has been instilled in you by GB among others.

I don't understand how you can not see what is right in front of your face.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/weightloss/2009-11-17-future-obesity-costs_N.htm

I am not saying that it is the sole reason for rising healthcare cost, but it can be argued it is one of the biggest. Diabetes and asthma, which are increasing every day due to obesity and air pollution are chronic conditions that are also driving up costs, costs that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Then you have technological advances that also drive up costs and an increase in the use of prescription medications.

Government regulation does cause an increase in cost but it is not the sole culprit as you would have people believe. Like I said your mantra of government being the cause is just plain wrong. You have to look at the whole picture, which is why healthcare reform is such an immense undertaking.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

No, its not the governments fault, its those in government whos egos are larger than the states they supposedly serve.
Instead of making health care available to those who cant get it, the government and its zealots decide to rearrange the entire health care system.
Explain to us why giving health care to those who cant get it, without total governmental control over the entire health care industry, would be more expensive than going the Obamacare route?
Just take care of those who cant themselves.
But, as logic will explain in any scenario of governmental takeover, the costs are divided up amongst the entirety of the people, and thus raising the costs per person.
Its a tax thats deferred by mandate, giving the zealots a free ticket by "doing good"

 

[johnsonma]

It has to do with the "mindset" that has been instilled in the people jaydee, that someone is responsible for paying their healthcare. It is a deliberate indoctrination, pure and simple. As evidenced by john's "mindset" in this thread.

Back in the good ol days, right OMG? Your stuck looking at what worked in the past and can't see what challenges await us in the future, you can criticize me all you want, but your still wrong. You know nothing of indoctrination, I based my opinion on reading multiple articles from different sources about healthcare, you based yours on what you were told to believe. Maybe I should "educate" you in vocabulary?

Was obesity anywhere near what it is now, back then?
Were the advancements in medical technology anywhere near, what the are now, back then?
Was this country as heavily medicated as it is now, back then?
The information is out there for those who keep open-minds.

This is an entirely new situation for healthcare, one that cannot be solved by simple minded answers, it requires a multi-faceted solution that addresses all the issues, or at least most of them, not just bashing the bad ol government because you have been told they are the bad guys and can do nothing but wrong. At least just look up the actual expenditures for healthcare across the nation, maybe then we can talk about facts instead of B.S. Its like I am talking to GB right now.

 

[johnsonma]

No, its not the governments fault, its those in government whos egos are larger than the states they supposedly serve.
Instead of making health care available to those who cant get it, the government and its zealots decide to rearrange the entire health care system.
Explain to us why giving health care to those who cant get it, without total governmental control over the entire health care industry, would be more expensive than going the Obamacare route?
Just take care of those who cant themselves.
But, as logic will explain in any scenario of governmental takeover, the costs are divided up amongst the entirety of the people, and thus raising the costs per person.
Its a tax thats deferred by mandate, giving the zealots a free ticket by "doing good"

Obamacare takes into consideration rising costs, just giving health care to those who can't get it, doesn't. Governmental takeover, LOL, give me a break, cost divided up amongst the entirety of the people would reduce costs per person by the way, some people aren't paying their fair share and the rest of us have to pick up the slack, if they were paying their fair share, we would pay less, yes-no?

 

[johnsonma]

@john

And you accuse me of dishing out rhetoric?

If everyone is paying for their own healthcare is doesn't matter if they are an obese, window licking, crackhead, diabetic. They can be as unhealthy as they want to. It's still the individual's responsibility to pay for themselves no matter what predicament they have gotten themselves into.

Buuuuuuut, when it becomes "the public health" and stops being "an individual's health" because the public is paying for it, then you get the abomination known as Obamacare.

Yes, it's just that simple.

What rhetoric might that be OMG? Or are you just imposing those flaws again? You little rascal!

Everyone has been paying for everyone's healthcare, auto accidents and any other type of insurance out there since insurance came into existence. It is how the industry works, but go ahead and blame Obama, why would you change your stance now.

The reason not everyone pays for their own healthcare is because they cannot afford it, having public health as you put it, mitigates the costs through the entirety of the nation and yes, it really is that simple.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Then, if everyone gets this health care, why mess with it?
Or, are you refering to the non fair share folks as those that dont pay at all?
Which just brings us back to what was said earlier

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

The government wants to go after fat people?
Now, this could get really ugly, as some races have certain tendencies.
Maybe we should have a dont ask dont tell?
If youre 300 lbs, dont ask.
If you have high blood pressure, dont ask
If you drink alchohol, and its a problem, dont ask.
If you have certain anemia, dont ask.

Now, since we cant ask, we cant force either.

 

[musical marv]

The government wants to go after fat people?
Now, this could get really ugly, as some races have certain tendencies.
Maybe we should have a dont ask dont tell?
If youre 300 lbs, dont ask.
If you have high blood pressure, dont ask
If you drink alchohol, and its a problem, dont ask.
If you have certain anemia, dont ask.

Now, since we cant ask, we cant force either.

Obesity is a killer today. This is happening because the health in the U.S. is getting detrimental.This is for your own good!

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

So, what about the other thi9ngs on that list?
And, if youre genetically set to be overweight, where do we draw the line?
Who asks those questions?
And then, who gets charged more, and who doesnt?
This is Pandoras box

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

One example is some races suffer diseases others dont, so, should that entire race be charged more?
And what if that person isnt "pure?"
These are tough questions, but it has to happen, if theyre going to be "fair", and the people demand it.
Like some here are saying

 

[riser]

Anything run by the government to this scale will be a disaster anyhow.

 

[johnsonma]

Lets get the pitchfork's boys, got us some government to take care of.

 

[johnsonma]

If everyone is paying for their own healthcare is doesn't matter if they are an obese, window licking, crackhead, diabetic. They can be as unhealthy as they want to. It's still the individual's responsibility to pay for themselves no matter what predicament they have gotten themselves into.

Buuuuuuut, when it becomes "the public health" and stops being "an individual's health" because the public is paying for it, then you get the abomination known as Obamacare.

Yes, it's just that simple.


Once you can relate everything to healthcare, and especially the cost to the public coffers as it relates to your personal health, then you indeed open Pandora's box to complete government control over your life.

Wow, how you can you take healtcare, then relate that to all aspects of a person's life and then say it paves the way for complete government control over your life. It's like you drew it up on a chalkboard, wrote government control, then healthcare, then drew a line between them and called it fact.

 

[riser]

Go to Canada. Order a steak medium. You can't because the gov't has to pay your healthcare and can determine what you can eat by means of preventative care/cost reduction.

In order for it to work it has to work on everyone as and apply fairly. That is the American way.

Companies are going to be required to have fitness centers and/or fitness programs they monitor to keep their healthcare costs low too. Many companies are already doing this.

In fact, I indirectly am supporting a company that is setting up a 'lifestyle' program that monitors employees health and excerise habits.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Again, this bigoted, controlling Pandoras box needs to be left alone.

If I had the potential for sickle cell anemia, I pay more.
If I have the genetics to be large, I pay more.
If I create a child thats got physical complications, I pay more.
High blood pressure? Pay more
Heart disease runs in the family, Im either controlled, or I pay more, or am denied.

If anyone proposing that anything that isnt "healthy" needs to be monitored and payed for, they need to throw in alot of bigotry as well

 

[johnsonma]

Well, let's see. They are already talking about requiring exercise, controlling what you eat, how much you eat, and how often. Do you like to have a glass of good scotch every evening or smoke a joint perhaps? Well, not anymore especially if you have high blood pressure or are overweight.

I'm not even going to dispute this, its far to ridiculous to even put thought into it.

You see, your lifestyle will be costing the government too much to maintain. So there are only two possibilities. One, you will be denied care because it is just too expensive for the government, or two they attempt to change your behavior.

So yeah. Control. See how it works?

You really are a conspiracy theorist aren't you? You can look at all the other governments around the world with public health care and their citizens LOVE IT. The new health care doesn't even take it that far, it just give people another public option. In what world do you see this as a step towards the controlling of peoples behavior? How you can even come close to believing this sort of nonsense is beyond me. Your paranoia of the government has deluded your thinking to ramblings of speculative theories(aka conspiracies) based entirely on misguided conjectures.

 

[johnsonma]

Go to Canada. Order a steak medium. You can't because the gov't has to pay your healthcare and can determine what you can eat by means of preventative care/cost reduction.

In order for it to work it has to work on everyone as and apply fairly. That is the American way.

Companies are going to be required to have fitness centers and/or fitness programs they monitor to keep their healthcare costs low too. Many companies are already doing this.

In fact, I indirectly am supporting a company that is setting up a 'lifestyle' program that monitors employees health and excerise habits.

I really hope you were kidding about the steak comment.

Any company worth its weight already has a fitness option, if they were ever required to have a fitness center it would be so that the employees had the option to exercise. You act like giving people an outlet to exercise is a crime, when half the country is overweight, that is the crime.

 

[johnsonma]

The government wants to go after fat people?
Now, this could get really ugly, as some races have certain tendencies.
Maybe we should have a dont ask dont tell?
If youre 300 lbs, dont ask.
If you have high blood pressure, dont ask
If you drink alchohol, and its a problem, dont ask.
If you have certain anemia, dont ask.

Now, since we cant ask, we cant force either.

Half the nation is overweight, its not a genetic dilemma, its a diet and lifestyle problem. If you think that this is a genetic issue, just look at the rest of the world, not a single country has such rampant obesity as America. We are the nation of fatties.

 

[riser]

I really hope you were kidding about the steak comment.

Any company worth its weight already has a fitness option, if they were ever required to have a fitness center it would be so that the employees had the option to exercise. You act like giving people an outlet to exercise is a crime, when half the country is overweight, that is the crime.

I'm serious about the steak comment. Any red meat is cooked to well done. There is no "medium, medium well, rare, etc." I prefer my steak medium well. You cannot get it there because the government is paying your healthcare and thus decided that red meat is not good for you. Move forward into ObamaCare. In order to keep it under control they will need to follow suit and dictate what people eat and to what portions are served in restaurants.

As far as an outlet to exercise.. that's be fine. Except this is being required. I said "monitored" in the sense that if you didn't go, someone comes looking for you to determine why you are not exercising. If you want to work there, you HAVE to exercise (or really just show up, weight in, standard tests weekly, but put your 'time' in regardless if you walk, run, lift weights, or roll around on the floor).

I work in it. I see it. What OMG is saying in not that far around the corner. I would love to have a free gym available to me that I could use. But hey, sometimes I don't have the time to go because of other things going on in my life. Somedays I'm sore, or sick. But with this new 'lifestyle' program, you have to pretty much check into this program a few times a week. If you're out sick, prove it with a doctor's note for time missed. I'm a grown adult and being asked to provide a doctor's note because I missed a single day of required exercise?! C'mon.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Half the nation is overweight, its not a genetic dilemma, its a diet and lifestyle problem. If you think that this is a genetic issue, just look at the rest of the world, not a single country has such rampant obesity as America. We are the nation of fatties.

First of all, even IF this were applied and successful, therell always be those overweight due to genetics, so, they pay more.
Next, we again get into genetics with sickle cell anemia, high bleed pressure etc etc.
Now, what may be good for some isnt good for all, as thats what theyve eaten, and so their forefathers.
So, having a facist government is a good government?
Having a bigoted government is a good government?
Having the worst approach, ala government running things, is a good thing?

Id like to know, since people killed God, why of why do they still have to try to be so moral, and if so, since the constitution doesnt allow for such from the church, why then from the government?
Sounds wack to me

 

[musical marv]

One example is some races suffer diseases others dont, so, should that entire race be charged more?
And what if that person isnt "pure?"
These are tough questions, but it has to happen, if theyre going to be "fair", and the people demand it.
Like some here are saying

This is your government at work.Every race has their pros and cons.

 

[johnsonma]

First of all, even IF this were applied and successful, therell always be those overweight due to genetics, so, they pay more.
Next, we again get into genetics with sickle cell anemia, high bleed pressure etc etc.
Now, what may be good for some isnt good for all, as thats what theyve eaten, and so their forefathers.
So, having a facist government is a good government?
Having a bigoted government is a good government?
Having the worst approach, ala government running things, is a good thing?

Id like to know, since people killed God, why of why do they still have to try to be so moral, and if so, since the constitution doesnt allow for such from the church, why then from the government?
Sounds wack to me

If you think obesity is related to genetics you are deluded, plain and simple. There are people that are naturally bigger but being obese is completely different. Most of the high blood pressure in the country is caused from the ridiculous about of sodium intake in our diets, as much as you want to blame this on genetics or the government, you can't.

Your rambling about government isn't really worth a rebuttal, but I will say that government won't be running the healthcare system, only part of it, for those who can't get insurance any other way.

 

[johnsonma]

I'm serious about the steak comment. Any red meat is cooked to well done. There is no "medium, medium well, rare, etc." I prefer my steak medium well. You cannot get it there because the government is paying your healthcare and thus decided that red meat is not good for you. Move forward into ObamaCare. In order to keep it under control they will need to follow suit and dictate what people eat and to what portions are served in restaurants.

As far as an outlet to exercise.. that's be fine. Except this is being required. I said "monitored" in the sense that if you didn't go, someone comes looking for you to determine why you are not exercising. If you want to work there, you HAVE to exercise (or really just show up, weight in, standard tests weekly, but put your 'time' in regardless if you walk, run, lift weights, or roll around on the floor).

I work in it. I see it. What OMG is saying in not that far around the corner. I would love to have a free gym available to me that I could use. But hey, sometimes I don't have the time to go because of other things going on in my life. Somedays I'm sore, or sick. But with this new 'lifestyle' program, you have to pretty much check into this program a few times a week. If you're out sick, prove it with a doctor's note for time missed. I'm a grown adult and being asked to provide a doctor's note because I missed a single day of required exercise?! C'mon.

Maybe they just decided that red meat was too risky to be allowed to be served to it's citizens, much the way you are warned in every menu in America about red meat and poultry. Also, could it not be related to the outbreak of disease in cows in that country? No way right? Has to be their government controlling the populace to save money, no way it could be anything else.

You are overstating the trend of exercise in the workplace, I know a few places that require you to get out of your office or cubicle and at least move around for a half an hour or so, but other then that I have not heard of required exercise. It may be out there but it is not as widespread as you make it out to be.

Exercise is good for people, and in a nation of the obese and overweight, its even better. You can try and say that its to reduce costs, but I think the majority of it is to improve the health of America in general and improve productivity. It is pathetic that the strongest most influential country in the world can't even keep their weight in check, what does that say about us?