Second Take: Did Piracy Kill Iron Lore?

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Those are stickies in the help section. I haven't seen an update of the posts that says it is corrected. No, the solution is to completely uninstall your AV. Great!

How is the problem with non-working universities resolved?



Aha...and when I want to install it and play it somewhere without an Internet connection or in a network that doesn't allow me to connect to Steam? What do I do then?
 



I have never had a problem with my AV program... ever.. AntiVir.. It is free, it is powerfull and it works no probs.. (except I need to change what time it auto-updates as it tends to do it while I am gaming)

The universities problem is resolved by the user talking to the IT department and explaining to them that they should allow STEAM as it is not a P2P network... which is why I would wager it is blocked to begin with and they do not want students and the school getting sued by the RIAA...so they just disable programs like that in a blanket setting.


-or pay for your own internet connection-

Run it in Offline mode.

There are settings with which you can do this.

http://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?s=720120a3d0029b0ce939b6cf0bd1089e&ref=3160-AGCB-2555


 
@Chetou
What do you have against Steam man?

I don't have any of those problems that were in those threads you posted, and I even use AVG.

Apparently you don't own any games from Steam and merely went to their site searching for reasons why it sucks so bad. The fact of the matter is that millions use Steam everyday, and if it was a broken system that was going nowhere it would not be doing so well.

Do you have a better idea on how to combat piracy? Or can you just point out what is wrong with Steam and Valve?
 


Yours isn't one of the mentioned. Some ppl have licenses for those. The post is half a year old and it seems it still hasn't been resolved. And those are not some obscure AVs.

And this I don't like:
"As always, we suggest closing as many background applications as possible while you are using Steam. This includes Anti-Virus and Security related programs."

I'll be online and I should close all my security related programs?



Yes, you could do that...if they allow it, since they don't really know what u'll be using it for since they can only open ports, not applications. It's a hassle either way.



This is ok, but still requires Internet connection.



7.5? Anyway, some obviously have problems, and they can't resolve it for half a year now?



I just prefer to have my own CD/DVD that I can install wherever and whenever I want it without the need to search for an Internet connection or to call IT department and explain to them why I need this and that. Steam doesn't suck, far from it, but it's hardly ideal too.

Something about running dedicated servers confuses me. You need to install seperate game files for a server and you can't play on the same computer the server is running on. Is this true?



Make a good game. Piracy is so overrated and a great scapegoat.
 
That is true about the dedicated servers. I think it is mostly for performance boost that you cannot play on the same machine.

Sorry I kind of tore into you. It just seemed like you wanted to pick apart Steam because you were not a fan of it. I guess for me, I like the idea of not having discs since I like to make images of mine anyway to play with. I don't want them getting stolen or broken at school, so that is just the way I have done things for awhile. Getting the image of a protected disc to work can be a huge pain, and Steam solves that problem completely.

I also agree that piracy can be used as an excuse for poor sales. But until the game developers realize it is not as bad as they think, it becomes a problem for us when copy protection gets out of control (Bioshock). If it gets bad enough in their eyes, the honest ones are going to suffer for it.
 
Here in the USA we are a Democracy. If games are pirated 70-80%, then the definition of Democracy would say pirating is legal. As long as 51% keep pirating games, it will be legal:)

 
Actually we are a Republic...(If we can keep it)

And a well trained and conditioned one at that...

I hear what you are saying.. but as the writing on the wall says..

"If voting changed anything, they would make it illegal"

But that is a subject for another thread.
 


Oh dear God...I hope you're not serious. Because if you are, the above statement will rank up there with software pirates being similar to Jesus, i.e. his "feeding the multitude" miracle that took a handful of fish and loaves and tranformed them into enough food for thousands.
 
I actually decided to read through the other posts in this thread to get a better understanding of where everyone is coming from, and I have finally come up with a good explanation of the state of piracy right now.

First of all, I have been using torrents extensively for the past 4 years, so I know what I am talking about. I also know about cracking games as well, like for getting them to work at lan parties for people who do not own the game. That being said, I buy all my games legally. I just know and understand the process of how to get games illegally off the internet.

Now, to say that just because some torrents do not have a lot of seeders or leechers that piracy is not a problem is complete bull. Before I continue, check out these searches from Mininova, ThePirateBay, and Isohunt:

http://www.mininova.org/search/bioshock/seeds
The best seeded torrent has been downloaded 63,412 times.

http://thepiratebay.org/search/bioshock/0/7/0

http://isohunt.com/torrents/?ihq=bioshock&sourceid=Mozilla-search
For those of you who don't know, Isohunt is like a Google search for torrents. So, it searches many trackers, including Mininova and ThePirateBay, and therefore gives a great reflection of the availability of something on most of the bittorrent sites.

Towards the top of the list of the Mininova search, there is another torrent with 42,673 downloads, and a few others with about 11,000 - 12,000 downloads. And that is just for Mininova. There are countless other torrent sites and trackers that I have not mentioned, including private torrent sites that have their own private trackers. Their torrent will never show up in any searches, but I assure you that many of them offer game downloads as well.

For anyone trying to discredit this evidence by saying that the numbers are not that bad, think about this. Who's to say that the people who download these files don't give them to their friends? It is not like it is hard to give the files to someone else.

And as for the small files that are merely the cracks so the game can be played without a disc, those count too. Why? Because all someone needs is a copy of the game disc, an image of it, or just to borrow a friend's disc that they paid for. It is very simple. There are also other avenues for downloading game files too, such as Usenet, DC++ and many others. DC++ basically turns a network into a p2p haven, where files are shared by people like over a network and download speeds are whatever the network connection speed is.

Piracy is a problem, and for anyone who does not think so, you just aren't looking hard enough and are not aware of all the different sources for it.

And just to reiterate one more time before I finish, I DO NOT PIRATE GAMES. I buy my games because the developers deserve the support for their awesome accomplishments. My knowledge of torrenting and cracking games mostly stems from my interest in playing my games using cd images to protect the disc.

Hopefully this was helpful in understanding the potential of how widespread game piracy (and all piracy for that matter) really is.
 


Not every download equals revenue lost for the developer, as stated countless times before.

More on Steam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_%28content_delivery%29#Criticism_of_Steam - ugly! Especially this:
"According to the Steam Subscriber Agreement, Steam's availability is not guaranteed and Valve is under no legal obligation to release an update disabling the authentication system in the event that Steam becomes permanently unavailable."
 
A valid point, but there is still no way to even find out how many of those people would have bought the game if there was not a method for obtaining it for free. The numbers speak louder than simply saying that those people would have never bought the game to begin with.

Do you have any hard evidence that states one pirated copy does not equal one lost sale? I can say a lot of things, but does that make it fact just because I post it in a forum. No.

As for the constant Steam bashing, have you ever used Steam? I bet you that every game you buy has a statement in the user agreement stating something similar regarding the functionality of the game. It is there to protect them from massive lawsuits if something does go wrong that is out of their control. That is just common sense from a lawyer's perspective when writing one of those agreements. Is that going to stop you from playing it? I hope not. It is a small price to pay to use the Steam system, and I will continue to do so until it dies...if it dies.

I like Steam, so I use it. You don't, so never use it. That kind of solves both of our problems doesn't it?
 
Long friggin posts in this thread.

Piracy is hurting the PC gaming industry, but it is NOT what killed Iron Lore. Titan Quest was a fun but uninspired diablo clone with little to no effective marketing. You only need look at the posts in this thread to see that many obsessive gamers never even heard of it.

Probably the worst damage that the pirates did was assume the game was buggy due to ill conceived and poorly implemented copy protection which in turn influenced reviews and excitement levels over what little advertising there might have been.

If the pirates had bought the game instead the company might have managed to release one more poorly thought out uninspired clone of some other successful game before their apparently poor marketing and business decisions killed them off anyway.
 



I'm sure if 70%-80% was a legitimate number, it would not take much time before there would be no games to pirate. I'm also sure that 51% is no where close, so pirating games is still illegal. I on the other hand, I believe in the try before you buy. The Crysis demo showed me enough that I didn't buy it. COD4 demo was awesome and play ok on my current game systems (no upgrade needed). That was an easy purchase. Being a UT fan I tried the UT3 demo and only one of my system could even play it over 30fps. I still bought the game with the hopes that in the next year I will be able to get all my game machines playing it much better. It will cost me $800.00 today to upgrade two of my game machines. In the months to come I hope hardware will keep dropping and I will get an even better deal. I'm sure if I could afford the upgrades today, I would have probably bought Crysis. I did try the 10 day free WOW trial with my son. We spent 9 of the 10 day running back to our dead bodies🙁 and only made it to level 12. I don't have $30.00 a month to blow just so I can run back to my dead body. Got old fast🙁 MMO sound good on paper, but if you work a full time job, you shouldn't have time for MMOs. I guess that is why I like UT, I come home from work and I can sit down for 15min and play two or three maps on UT and be satisfied. RPG on the other hand are real hard to stop after only 15min. If there is no Demo, I will not buy it period! I've been burned once too many times, IT WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN. Curiosity does get the better of me at times, when Manhunt 2 was rejected for it content I did look for a DL to see what the hype was about. No luck though. BioShocks DRM issues got me to DL the Demo and the cracked game. I never made it past the demo and I deleted the cracked game before I even installed it. The game demo was "same **** different day" and none of my game computer could play it very good, flushed that one. One last thing, I will not buy a game that requires a CD/DVD to play. So unless there is a NO-CD crack or a system like Steam I will not buy a game. Orange Box was my first Steam purchase and I love it. I installed Orange Box on 5 computer in my house and I can play on any one of them without the DVDs. At my last lan party I was able to play TF2 on 15 computer with no problem. Just don't let it log on to Steam and only play LAN.
 
Actually no matter what is debated I would also have to agree that piracy is a problem for the pc gaming industry. Let me clarify this though: I say this because whether piracy really hampers sales (or lose sales), the mere supposition of it scares a lot of companies away. Therefore even if the facts were half assed, it still makes companies wary.

Now I have been thinking (and i would like to pose the scenario to others in this discussion), If these cases are true, what would be scenario of pc gaming today:

1) No piracy
2) Companies release a demo of the product that reflects the worth of the product
3) Review sites dont just give a nicey nicey review, they burn when necessary.
4) Prices of the games are same as we have today

Would we:
1) Still have IronLore?
2) Sell more than consoles?
3) Have many little companies surviving?
etc

Curious..
 
There was a day when the pirating of many things was not possible like it is today (as in CD/DVD burners did not exist, and software to make copies of discs didn't exist either). There was also no internet, so no p2p programs to obtain the illegal copies of everything.

I was not into gaming back then like I am now, so it is hard to think of the answers to your questions. Because really, that is the kind of thinking it would take to answer your scenario properly.

1. I think Iron Lore would have still died honestly, because I had never heard of them, and I am sure many of my friends who game have not heard of them as well. Not to say that Titan Quest is a bad game. I just don't think they were able to compete with the other competition monetarily, so that was one of the major factors in their downfall.

2. As far as consoles are concerned, I don't think their numbers would change too much if at all. Some people are PC gamers, some play on consoles, and some both. That is just a matter of preference, so I don't think piracy would affect that at all.

3. I also think the same goes for the little companies. A lot of it comes down to marketing I think. Without piracy the little companies might last a little longer, but overall the same ones would fall due to the inability to compete with the larger ones.

Small companies can make it. They just need to make a quality product and make a name for themselves. Valve did this very well with the original Half-Life, as did Epic with the original Unreal and Unreal Tournament, and Crytek with Far Cry. If Titan Quest had been that great of a game, they would have easily survived. They didn't, so I think it is safe to say we did not have another Unreal or Half-Life on our hands.

I remember back when if someone wanted some music, they went out and bought the CD because this was the only option (besides borrowing it from someone). For the most part people were happy with this system, and there was not a lot of bitching and complaining about it. Then the CD burner came out. Next thing you know, CD's can be ripped to mp3's. Then programs and websites started popping up where the same music that once had to be bought could be had for absolutely nothing. Then everything got really complicated.

I am not saying I am disgusted in the way things turned out. I am just saying the same thing can be said about the PC gaming industry. Remember when games NEVER had copy protection, because it was not needed? Now look where we are.

sezyboy, that was an excellent and probing topic you put forth. I did not mean to write so much, but it definitely got me to thinking. I don't really care if anyone reads it all, but someone might find it interesting and that is enough for me to write it :)
 
As for the mistaken belief that small developers cannot break into this industry, just take a look at stardock.

They went from absolute no-name to arguably a first and at least second tier developer/publisher with 3 game releases. Yeah they fill a niche market with little competition but they do so with no DRM and a very above board business model.
 
I for one just want to keep playing games on the PC. If developers decide to develop strictly for consoles then that's it for me. I'm never going to stoop to buying a console and joining the drooling idjuts stuck in front of their TV's. All piracy arguments aside, I play on the PC because I prefer great-looking entertainment with some balls and brains (like the Witcher), and I'm sure that there are others out there like me - hence a market. PC games are technologically superior in every way and I like upgrading and having the latest technology - PC gamers know that and developers know that, but, and I can understand this, they are not going to pander to the lowest common denominator (ie. us).

If developers want to focus on console-only projects because it's more profitable, then fine, but they need to stop rationalizing the move, like they feel guilty about it or something. It's not like they're friends of mine that need to justify a backstabbing. Just quietly move on and abandon those of us who are willing to pay for the privilege of enjoying your games they way they were meant to be played.

All I'm saying is, there are some of us that will only play on the PC, and judging by the comments made on this board, there should enough enthusiasts out there that feel passionate about gaming on PC only to support that slice of the gaming market. Ergo, there will be a market that will go untapped if the gaming community decides to shut down the PC portion, which is stupid from an economical standpoint. Still, dumber things have happened...
 
Does anyone know what some of the more common DRM companies charge to put their hooks in a piece of software?


This is completely an aside, but after all this talk about Stardock being so great I went out and bought Sins. It isn't a bad game, but I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about. It's like Civ 4 light with a space skin.

What am I missing that makes this game so great? Don't get me wrong I've had fun with it. However, it isn't the bastion of excellent PC gaming I thought it would be based on everyone's comments in here.
 
I am with jomicbro on that one. I am PC gamer, not a consoler, and I never will be. If PC gaming dies, then I am done as well. The problem is that is PC gaming dies, what the hell is going to happen to the portion of the video card industry aimed towards that crowd? We will definitely not pay hundreds of dollars on a video card to get an awesome 3DMark score (which most people don't even care about anyway). The other lines of hardware geared towards gamers would also be in the same boat.

I think there are enough big players in all the hardware aspects to keep PC gaming alive, because they would be out a lot of profit if there was no reason to buy their products. But you never know.

I am not too worried right now, but you might want to check this out if you have not read it yet: http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/03/10/unreal_creator_tim_sweeney_pcs_are_good_for_anything_just_not_games_/

I am interested to see what else he has to say, because it almost sounds like he doesn't want to make PC games anymore. Could Epic be one of the first to abandon their PC gaming roots? It sure sounds like it 🙁

Oh, and it does kind of seem like this thread has gotten out of hand. Or rather, the topic of discussion has changed into a piracy debate. I still think it is relevant, or at least relevant to those who read it 😉
 
I'm with jomicbro and Iscabis - if pc gaming dies, I'm out. My wife would be happy (not that I play that much - really!)

It would be too bad - There will always be an element of the population that prefers PC gaming over consoles and that element would just be shut out. I remember, when I was younger, it seemed natural that the tykes playing on their Nintendos would one day graduate to the adult platform - the PC. It didn't happen. I don't know why - there are more PCs out there now than ever, but the younglings never bothered to figure out how they worked.

As far as pirate portals go, usenet is another major source of illegal D/Ls. I monitor the stats and the most popular PC game group gets, on average, around 10K D/Ls a day (way more right after a big release). Sure, that number is spread across several titles, but it adds up fast....
 
I have been reading a lot of articles lately on how the PC is killing PC gaming. For example http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/03/10/unreal_creator_tim_sweeney_pcs_are_good_for_anything_just_not_games_/
Pretty much the grip centres on integrated graphics and how many new PCs cannot run any games other than MMOs and casual games. According to the above article, the difference in power between a gaming rig and a non gaming rig can be as much as 100x making development for both impractical. It will be interesting to see what AMD does once they start integrating graphics. Does anyone have stats on the percentage of computers that are purchased have a dedicated video card that are worth their salt? For a final thought, if a law exists that makes over %50 of your population criminals, is that not a good sign that it is broken?
 
Iscabis - I'm really confused, what "day" are you talking about here? There has always been piracy. Look back to even the origins of currency, there were people "pirating" currency by making their own clones of coins and papers. In software, piracy was an issue even back in the early 1980s, with a lot of people (geeks) either exchanging code via printouts (that you could re-enter yourself manually) or via diskettes. Application developers started creating things like hardware keys to combat this (like parallel port based ones), while others made master key diskettes among other things which were bound to the application. A lot of this was before my time, but I have heard about it in my research over the years. Piracy has been a debate for a long long time, and I always tried to understand both sides.

Even in the 1980s, game developers also jumped on the bandwagon, with sometimes very elaborate designs. For example, the original "Terminator" game had a wheel which was a very deep red color with black symbols on it, which you had to rotate based off what the game asked to generate the correct response. Due to the color of the wheel, it was almost impossible to photocopy. The game itself was easily pirated, but the wheel made it much harder to play without it.

Even adventure, flight, and RPG games started doing things like requesting data from the manual of the game (What word is on the 15th page on the third paragraph, three words across?). In terms of music piracy, "trackers" were replicating popular songs in .xm, .mid, .s3m, etc. formats pre-mp3s. WAVs were also sometimes shared, but most of all, cassette tapes were the primary source of music "piracy" especially the very popular "mix tapes" of the 80s and early 1990s. CDR burners almost completely eliminated the need for tapes by the end of the 1990s.

Furthermore, pre-internet there existed BBSs, which were in every state and in many countries. Every major area of the US had at least 20-30 BBSs, with probably half of them devoting a portion of their purpose to piracy. The rest were official business boards (game developers for example), chatlines, or dedicated to what were called "DOOR" games, like Legend of the Red Dragon, Global Conquest, or MajorMUD. The pirate BBSs, especially the "topsites" had every single game and application within hours of their release and then spread across the nation very quickly. Piracy aside, developers and publishers would use their own boards to share patches (which were pretty rare at the time), free content, or just to run community events.

Piracy is not the killer of media, at least one that is the end all be all of a specific platform's development. People need to accept that it will never be stopped, it's the realistic truth. There is not enough room in the jails for the pirates, and executing them will do nothing but harm to society. Banning pirates from computers will no doubt hurt economies worldwide, because they are tech geeks who contribute to the working world. I would estimate that almost all but say a small percentage of pirates do actually buy software, movies, and music quite frequently. It's really the local areas of Chinese and Russian markets where you'll find people who really do not ever purchase legit media. If you think you can change those areas of the world, good luck. Getting them to pay full price for anything media related would be nearly impossible and it's not going to happen anytime soon - they don't have the money. If companies try to combat this by lowering their prices in these poorer regions, then these people will make a business off re-exporting the cheaper product back to the countries who are paying more for it.

In my opinion, piracy did not kill the studio behind Titan Quest, it was a poor excuse to try to take some blame off THQ. THQ should have owned up to the situation and said "Damn, we should have done all these other things like more marketing, better QA standards, less efforts on implementing high end anti-piracy measures, etc." The reality is, most Developers and Publishers accept the fact that piracy exists and always has existed, so it's not like they're crying themselves to sleep every time they release a game. It's hyped up and used as an excuse way more often than it should be. In terms of quality, some can argue both for and against the quality of Titan Quest. The marketing campaign for it was virtually non-existent. The game itself was protected by some very very strong anti-piracy measures, which actually made it one of the least pirated games. Per the logic of many on this board, due to the fact that it was for awhile almost impossible to pirate, that it should have sold exceptionally well. Well, it didn't. It sold ok. THQ didn't want to market it well, and the build wasn't as stable as it should have been.

The sad thing is, piracy probably would have done Titan Quest some good. Had more of the "pirate" community checked it out, it probably would have sold more copies. Instead, the pirates played other games and ignored it. The general gaming community didn't really even hear much about Titan Quest (as also shown on this board), so even to general consumers they just were not all that aware of it. None of this is to say that I condone piracy (my game collection would certainly say otherwise), just that they purposely made it nearly impossible to pirate thus cutting out a very large part of the world community.

Anyways, I had to respond to this. In terms of software, music, and movies, there really hasn't been a day where piracy didn't exist. There have always been attempts to pirate each of them, and attempts to stop it. If more companies acted like Relic and Stardock, they'd find themselves in a much better position.

Also, speaking of consoles, the Wii, PS2, Xbox 360, PSP, and Nintendo DS have all been cracked and their games are pirated very very frequently. Consoles are not immune at all.

In the end, movies still sell, games still sell, music still sells, and people are still getting rich off media. How many pirates do you know that are living out in McMansions in Hollywood and driving exotic sports cars while smoking imported cuban cigars? Lastly, nearly everyone on this planet at some point has had some form of piracy in their hands. Whether it be a photocopied article, a mix tape, a copied cd, a VHS tape with a movie, or a copy of a game, you'd almost certainly be a liar if you said you hadn't been a part of it at some point in your life. It's not like the war on drugs where a fraction of the population may take part, it's something that almost everyone who has access to media in the entire world has participated in. People would be better off using their resources for other battles where quality of life is really affected. You can start with child labor, slavery, kidnapping for ransom, etc.
 
ryanlord, I really appreciate your insight on this topic.

I apparently am not as versed in piracy prior to when I started getting into computers. I realized that it existed, but not to the extent that it really was until you so thoroughly explained it in your post. I was mostly talking about piracy in the sense that I know it and that most of the people here know it, as in the age of burning and ripping media as it can be done now.

You are very correct though. Piracy is and will forever be a part of our society, and it cannot be stopped. Seeing as it has been around as long as you have said and everything has survived thus far, not much will probably change this.

Does anyone remember when exactly piracy started getting blamed for things? I still say piracy is a problem, but surely piracy hasn't been used as an explanation forever?

Another interesting point is how many people do you know who know how to get pirated material? Or even use bittorrent? A lot of people I know have no idea how to use it, let alone what it is. So piracy is definitely prevalent, but maybe it is that the amount of people who use it are such a minority that sales are not affected as much as some people think (including me). What are your thoughts?
 
I remember people saying Appleworks was the best program never bought. Piracy was especially bad in the mid to late 1980s. In fact until cd burners came out CDs seemed to get copied much less. Then we had CD burners and pirating pickup again.

The reality is the next gen consoles are computers. They have hard drives, can take usb keyboards and mice, and they have internet connections. They also have cheaper components and are not expected to run at as high performance as a computer. Several of my friends have run xboxs are firewalls or linux machines. So the distrinction between consoles and PCs has greatly diminished.

We need to realize that people no longer need the highest end computers to run their programs. The high end market is diminishing and expecting games hardware to run reasonably on the newest and greatest hardware is ultimately self defeating. We can't expect our games to run only on graphic workstations nor can we expect people to upgrade every year like we used to.

My bet is the next couple of years will be bad for the games industry and hardware manufacturers.
 

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