Second Take: The Digg User Revolt

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
I say freedom of speech. People can say what they want. Like if you have a dumb opinion about a site that is not yours tell everyone, do it via video even...
Oh please, every time someone feels their right to something is abridged they call out freedom of speech. That only applies to political speech, being silence by governments or other authoritarian bodies that function for the government.

@Geoff
Good point but it ends up as what exactly would the code have been used for in the end. Personally I'm happy that the code is widespread and that the companies at least have to waste some money in combating this, but the point still stands.
 
I don't go on the digg, so i am not defending MY right, but they can do whatever they want to. They can SAY whatever want to too. I am just using the rules to illustrate that you break one and you are defending another.
 
So your are telling me that a string of characters is illegal? ph|_|ck THAT. This is the internet, not the united states of americaland. If they move their hosting to a pirate friendly country i will laugh, cause then ANYTHING goes, your fascist rules can go and shove themselves, you must be so terrified of the scary hash farmers.

How is this not a freedom of speech issue, if i want to say coke sucks i can, pepsi does it all the time, if i want to say your government stinks as do it's rules, i can, try to stop me, if they want to post a string that has the potential to break a *controlling* protection they may.

In america just about anyone is allowed to buy a gun, but buying a gun does not make you a murderer now does it? No, so if i want to tell everyone that number I MAY, IF they hack with it, it is their crime, not mine. Did the guy who sold Cho the guns, kill all the students? No, so go suck a biological cylinder.
 
Actually, since you are apparently not a US citizen, you are NOT guaranteed Freedom of Speech (which the First Amendment specifically relates to political and religious speech by the way), or anything else by our Constitution. Further, the argument could be made that this whole issue (as it falls under US law), is none of your business. If they move their hosting to your country, then your view and laws would have relevance. I actually find it funny that you bash the US and its laws on one hand, then turn around and pretend to understand and be protected by said laws and their application on the other.

And I can with 100% certainty tell you that publishing a string of characters CAN be illegal in the US. If I publish a String that happens to be the text of a copyrighted book, then it is illegal. Further, under the (misguided) terms of the DMCA, in the US, publishing a string of characters that could be used to crack copy protection could be construed as illegal.

That being said, I find it highly disturbing how many freedoms have been lost in this country in recent years. Frankly, DRM is one of the smallest of those freedoms. DRM is nothing compared to the loss of freedom to have a dissenting opinion, and the loss of any sort of privacy whatsoever in the name of the "War on Terror".
 
The loss of these freedoms is nothing new. What's that old saying?

"The first casualty of war is the truth."

This doesn't make it any better, but it is just collective human nature. As far as I can tell, it's been the same since civilization began.

The pendulumn swings, though. I expect that 5-10 years down the road, the U.S. will once again be a country that is an example of human rights and progressiveness.

The annoying thing is that, no matter how much history we teach in school, people will always either choose to ignore it or just won't see how it equates to current events. I don't know how to reconcile the idea that the information to know better is there, widely available, and yet people, as a whole, continue to ignore it. Human nature is a bitch - and it's pretty much the same everywhere.
 
The annoying thing is that, no matter how much history we teach in school, people will always either choose to ignore it or just won't see how it equates to current events. I don't know how to reconcile the idea that the information to know better is there, widely available, and yet people, as a whole, continue to ignore it. Human nature is a bitch - and it's pretty much the same everywhere.
I think the big problem with learning from history is that most places (US included), don't teach what really happened in history. Rather, they teach their version that suits their views. I can think of numerous topics I was taught in "History" class that left out a lot of important, but potentially embarrassing, details. Such as the attempted annexation of Canada at the end of the war of 1812. Not having all the information makes it that much harder to learn.

Like they always say, "History is written by the victor".

Think about how the "good guys always win" - its because everyone thinks they are the good guy, and the loser (or bad guy) usually isn't around or powerful enough to tell the story. This is most obvious in war, but applies to many other facets of history as well.
 
In america just about anyone is allowed to buy a gun, but buying a gun does not make you a murderer now does it? No, so if i want to tell everyone that number I MAY, IF they hack with it, it is their crime, not mine. Did the guy who sold Cho the guns, kill all the students? No, so go suck a biological cylinder.

Apples and oranges, Rabidpeanut. You are talking about two different sets of laws. And actually, in the case of copyright law, according to the DMCA -- as I've illustrated more than once on this thread -- the distribution of software, tools and codes that can be used to break DRM is illegal, even if you yourself are not using the means to break the DRM yourself. Again, see the case of 2600 magazine and the DVD hacks.

We're going in circles here, but for the sake of intelligent debate and forum conversation, I'll reiterate the earlier points. The argument here isn't that the actual code on Digg is copyright material -- it's not. What AACS is arguing is that by making the code public, Digg is providing the means for people to illegally copy HD-DVDs. See the above example regarding the DMCA case with 2600 and you'll understand why I and so many other people are arguing that Digg is on the wrong side of the law and will likely lose this case.

As responsible citizens, we need to figure out what's right and what's wrong, then fight to have our view heard. I respect those digg users for fighting for what they believe in, and despise people who "obey the law" just because. So would you have supported slavery if it were the law? After all it used to be legal.

I don't obey the DMCA "just because it's the law." I obey it because I believe in protecting IP and copyright material, and i know that in the end, ripping off music or video or games will hurt the artists and creators -- not the publishers. It frustrates me that I can't make legit copies of HD-DVDs, but you know what? LIFE GOES ON. It's not the end of the world. Framing this issue in a way that compares it to slavery and the holocaust is simply appalling.
 
Well, you can bet that Canadians haven't forgotten the war of 1812. I would say the anexation attempt has been forgiven, but the average Canadian is probably annoyed that their counterparts in the U.S. don't even know about it.

Of course, back then most of my ancestors were either in Europe or the U.S. We're talking about who's ancestors fought who eles's ancestors on this one.

There are good points to the innacuracies taught in history class. Living in Quebec, it's very annoying to hear people talk about separation. They completely ignore the 400 years of building this country together and all the bonds that have formed. Bah!

Back to the main issue here: What's happening is something large. It's hard to put into specifics. People are sensing that the way things are going is against what they judge to be right. This is happening in many contexts, such as the degredation of civil liberties because of the fear of terrorism, all the way down to the degredation in consumer's rights in the name of fear of piracy. Making backup copies is a legitimate thing to do: I think most people will agree about that. However, the measures used in the name of preventing piracy means that I would have to break the law to back up my media collection (if I were a U.S. citizen, that is). Some people have no problems with this, or are completely willing to accept this kind of loss in the name of the cause. Others are more sensitive to any personal inconvenience (or, in other more important fields, loss of personal rights and freedoms). It is the general trend that people are sensing and feeling a response: it runs from complacent to concerned to outright furious.

To me, it seems that what's happened is that large corporate interests have too much influence over governments. Why are corporate donations allowed at all? Isn't the job of representative democratic governments to represent the citizens? I'm sure that common-sense will still prevail and citizens will see that they need to foster a strong economic environment in which their businesses will do well, but at least you won't have governments cranking out (or at least being percieved to be cranking out) legislation that takes from the poor to give to the rich.

Some people look at copyright protection and the legislation surrounding it more cynically, and see that the copyright protection schemes don't even slow down piracy. They also see that informed individuals would not reasonably expect copyright protection schemes, as they stand, to hinder piracy. I believe that copyright protection, in practicality, is at best successful in reminding people that the material is copyrighted, and may cause some people to think twice before choosing to pirate or not. Otherwise, I think these schemes amout to the following:

1) The content holders can sell you many copies of the same media, since it's been made illegal for you to play the same content in a CD player and your iPod and on your HTPC. It's also now illegal for you to share that music with everyone in your household if (in the case of iTunes) there are more than 3 people. This particular point has been argued to death and, in general, ticks off everyone who is pro-Fair Use.

2) The content holders maintain a lock over the distribution channel. Just as point (1) demonstrates how we are restricted beyond the traditional definitions of copyright in terms of use, we are becoming restricted in terms of how we can acquire the media in the first place. The latest move I've noted is how sale of used CDs in Florida is now more restrictive than the purchase of firearms. Link.

3) The content owners are taking control over the playback devices we get to use in the home. At first, this point sounds like a re-iteration of point (1) above, but what I really mean here is that the RIAA/MPAA get to charge a royaltee fee on all HDCP compliant hardware. The new terms of the agreement are that these companies don't just own the content, for which you can pay for the right to consume, but they also own the technology behind how the content can be used. You're not just consuming a movie, you're consuming the right to use proprietary formats. Charging the consumer at both ends is annoying.

Again, to point 3), I'm sorry to say that I'm just going to have to forgo paying that royaltee fee since I insist on not buying Windows for my media centre. There seem to be only two ways I can exercise any personal choice in the current system: stop consuming the media, or break the law. Otherwise, you must do everything on the RIAA/MPAA's terms and pay them at every step of the process.

I think it's entirely logical that a certain portion of the citizenry is going to get annoyed. Some people are more sensitive to these kinds of issues than others. I would say that I'm probably in the former group.
 
Uuum, Darkest South Africa has a constitution too, you plank. And i was using myself as an example. You people are giving up all rights to everything and are becoming a fascist state and then turning around and telling everyone that they are in the wrong for 'terr. The only terror going on in your country is in your scared little minds, i mean you have so much to fear, you are just a defenseless little state with nothing to protect you from the scary desert warriors. Do you see people in Croatia running about worrying about terrorists? Those guys got fucked up by, ooh who was it? YOU CUNTS. Luckily the scary suicide bombers will have wiped you all out with their mightily advanced gunpowder pretty soon, or so you all seem to be worried about.

BOO!

Did you all shit yourselves? Or is that just the Mc Shits.

History is written by the victors.. (well then why are the fat ones always telling us about Vietnam?)(notice the capital V), if they can kick your ass you deserve to be scared.

History is the lies you tell your children to warp them to your will.

You have sacrificed a major freedom allowing these laws to be passed. You could stop this, but playing xbox was way more fun.

Who cares about your law, your law is not right. That is what i am saying.

Your education system is not right either it seems. ie Your inability to hit this conclusion.

Honestly (and i hate to say this) you should be more like the French (capital F here too), when they see the country going to shit they do something. Enjoying you couch?

Most French people are d1ckh0l3s but they will at least stand up for what they believe in. unlike you guys who are a-holes and wont.

You don't live in a country, you live in a business. This business happens to like oil, and 'weapons of mass destruction', or in Arabic; Rocks.

r'tards

HOW DARE I?
 
8aac5bef52.jpg


You deal with America, you play by American rules. Nuff said.
 
Wow, even though I happen to agree with certain things you say, and in fact, I would wager that I understand their implications far better than you do, being that I actually live with it every day, I have to say that you come across as a pig-headed idiot.

BTW, the Vietnamese in no way, shape, or form "kicked our asses" in Vietnam. We beat ourselves by attempting to fight a guerrilla war via conventional means, which is unfortunately much like our government is doing today in Iraq. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you would know that in pretty much EVERY conventional battle starting with the Ia Dran valley at the very beginning of the war, the US forces basically routed the Vietnamese forces.

Why don't you try coming back when you actually have an original thought, rather than spewing some anti-American drivel that you heard or read somewhere.
 
I have never understood drm, or copyright law the way that the media industries use it. If I go out and pay for a cd I should be able to give it to my friend. To say the opposite really makes no sense. To illustrate take for instance that I go out and buy a car, if the auto industry had copyright laws like the media industry does, then I could not let my friend drive my car; I could not give it to my brother as a present. This very hypocrisy is what makes drm and copyright law so bogus, at least the way the media industries use it. As to the code, knowing how Ford makes a motor is something vital to almost every mechanic; yet the people on this forum(and others) who say that the code is private would probably want it so that no mechanic ever knew anything about how a Toyota car worked, or a Ford, or a Chevrolet. Those motor plans are copyrighted, they are 'private'; yet ask any mechanic and he can probably tell you the difference between a Toyota motor and a Ford. The point that I am trying to make is that knowing how something works cannot be construed as illegal, at least not logically.
 
RobWright said:
As responsible citizens, we need to figure out what's right and what's wrong, then fight to have our view heard. I respect those digg users for fighting for what they believe in, and despise people who "obey the law" just because. So would you have supported slavery if it were the law? After all it used to be legal.

I don't obey the DMCA "just because it's the law." I obey it because I believe in protecting IP and copyright material, and i know that in the end, ripping off music or video or games will hurt the artists and creators -- not the publishers. It frustrates me that I can't make legit copies of HD-DVDs, but you know what? LIFE GOES ON. It's not the end of the world. Framing this issue in a way that compares it to slavery and the holocaust is simply appalling.

1) Please watch your video again and let me know if you don't think you are saying DMCA should be obeyed just "just because it's the law". Just count how many times you use "illegal" to defend DMCA and how many times you use any other reason to defend DMCA.

http://www.tomshardware.com/site/flash_videos/second_take_the_digg_user_revolt.html

2) May be you didn't mean it - and I don't think you do - but there are lot's of people, other than myself, who think you are saying that DMCA should be obeyed because otherwise it would be "illegal". I can provide many many quotes in this thread, but I don't' think I need to...

3) I agree with you that comparing DMCA to slavery/holocaust is appalling. But comparing to "obeying the law blindly without thinking" is not... Angry and/or ignorant mob can pass law that is stupid and detrimental to humanity, but yet legal.

4) I want to conclude by saying that I respect your support to artists and creators - they deserve to be paid for their work. I just think DMCA should not be supported because it is putting too much burden on the consumer, even if it's intent is good.
 
grrr.

the underlying issue is not the fact that pirating is illegal. it is censoring information on the internet, and diggs mission statement to provide a free forum for information... and not its function to censor information that which itself is not illegal... digg is not itself distributing pirated material. it is providing an information resource and its upto its users how to apply that information.
 
Does it matter how you lost the war? No,

YOU
GOT
FUCKED
UP.

And just so you know your 'History' only highlights the good stuff

And if 1 battle is the only thing to highlight then you must have fucked up pretty badly.

That is like saying, we lost the world cup but we kicked ass in the qualifying, big deal, YOU LOST. It is like saying we are a better team than them, but they beat us for the trophy, but we are better. Much better, just look at us being better here in second place. Yes, you are WAY better.

If your commanders are so stupid that they don't adjust their tactics, what does that make you? Better?

I bet your 'War President' will agree that you won.
 
the main thing that gets to me about this whole thing is that the code does not have to be used for piracy. y should posting the code be illegal when in movies they show you how to kill / speed / take drugs (and they even charge you to watch) that does not mean you have to go and do those things and the code is useless with out hacking powers any way and people like that dont need the code to be posted on a large site to find it

the people in the USA go on about freedom and yet you have less freedom than alot of other 1st world countries ( i live in Australia) and even alot of 3rd world ones (was born and raised in South Africa)


piracy up up and away
 
It's a bit crappy but i am getting an upgrade soon, so YAY! gotta finish tests and exams first. Got one today 🙁.
That sucks, man. 🙁 But it does explain a lot...to those who aren't paying attention:

A computer crash may lead to irrational acts of revenge.
Have fun with those upgrades though. :)
 
Does it matter how you lost the war? No,

YOU
GOT
******
UP.

And just so you know your 'History' only highlights the good stuff

And if 1 battle is the only thing to highlight then you must have ****** up pretty badly.

That is like saying, we lost the world cup but we kicked ass in the qualifying, big deal, YOU LOST. It is like saying we are a better team than them, but they beat us for the trophy, but we are better. Much better, just look at us being better here in second place. Yes, you are WAY better.

If your commanders are so stupid that they don't adjust their tactics, what does that make you? Better?

I bet your 'War President' will agree that you won.

You really don't have a clue. I can highlight more than a few things that are just plain wrong in your last few posts, but I won't. You can look at my sig and figure out why I will no longer be responding to your foolishness.
 
grrr.

the underlying issue is not the fact that pirating is illegal. it is censoring information on the internet, and diggs mission statement to provide a free forum for information... and not its function to censor information that which itself is not illegal... digg is not itself distributing pirated material. it is providing an information resource and its upto its users how to apply that information.
You are correct in a way, but unfortunately, its not that easy to separate the two. It comes down to where do you draw the line? Digg already filters some "objectionable" material, and I am willing to bet would remove the text of a book if posted in its entirety. But in a case like this, where its questionable whether or not the posting of the content violates the DMCA, it is a bit harder to decide.

I don't personally think that Digg did anything wrong, or that the AACS had any business trying to order Digg around. But, I also think the posting itself was questionable (yes it has valid uses, but there are just as many invalid ones), and, since the AACS couldn't attack the posters directly without some sort of concentrated effort, they chose to go after the easy target.
 

TRENDING THREADS