Discussion Should I try Linux?

[USAFRet]

I Disagree. You probably have to pay to install a newer version of Windows - and the newer Windows version may not accept your hardware.

A Windows license purchased in 2009 (Win 7) will upgrade, for free, to WIn 10. Which is still under full support until Oct 2025.
16 years on a $100 original purchase isn't that bad.

Newer versions of Windows not supporting old hardware? That is only really a thing with Win 11. Win 10 will run on 2009 era hardware.
Win 11, however, has much stricter hardware limitations.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

A Windows license purchased in 2009 (Win 7) will upgrade, for free, to WIn 10. Which is still under full support until Oct 2025.
16 years on a $100 original purchase isn't that bad.

Newer versions of Windows not supporting old hardware? That is only really a thing with Win 11. Win 10 will run on 2009 era hardware.
Win 11, however, has much stricter hardware limitations.

Not to boast, but I've put W10 on computers on Vista and even XP conputers. The computer I'm using right now is from 2006 and I got a Windows key for $30 for it and it runs Windows 10 pretty well actually. But it does seem that Linux works a bit smoother so far.

Yes, Windows 11 is the biggest change in hardware limitations since XP came out.

 

[Grobe]

With Linux, it seems that the distros also get updated, but the programs might not always be compatible with the newer versions of the distros unless they're updated along with.

I'll suggest you have a closer look at the concept of rolling distros (Arc based such as Manjaro) vs. standard point releases (like Debian based distros).

For a rolling release, you can in theory have all software updated and not needed to install a newer release. This model have advantages and also disadvantages.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

I tried Qemu for emulation, but I got an error about a KVM file not existing. According to what I've googled it's a problem with hardware virtualization not being enabled in the Bios. But this is a 2006 laptop. I'll check if it has virtualization, but this may be another dead end emulator for this machine and Linux distro.

Edit:

I spoke too soon. Virtualization was off and now I hopefully will have Android emulating here in a bit.

Edit:

I got as far as the point where Android was supposed to start, but it didn't. I'm trying a different version of Android x86 right now to see if that helps.

Edit:

Well I got an older 32 bit version of Android x86 with LineagOS (LineageOS rocks in case you didn't know) and got it to make it to the Android startup screen. We'll see if it finishes setup. But it's looking good right now, although it's taking quite a while for the Qemu emulator to start Android for the first time.

Edit:

Well, the emulator chugs real slowly. And Android keeps restarting and as a result I can't get through the setup process. So I'm guessing that emulating on this old of a computer is probably a bad idea.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

GOOD NEWS!

I got both Winlink Express and Chirp to work. At least they seem too. I'll try them out with the programming cable for Chirp and the modem for Winlink. But so far they seem to work just fine.

Now the only thing that doesn't work yet is JW Library. That should be the last app I really would like.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

So I've tried,

• Anbox
• Android x86 natively
• Android x86 through Virtual Box
• Android x86 through Qemu
• Shashlik
• Android Studio
• ARC
• Archon

And so far the only one that boots into Android at all is Android x86 emulated on Qemu. But it is very slow and crashes a lot, and as a result I haven't even been able to try to install a single APK on it.

So I think it is safe to say that this computer with Linux will have to run mainly Linux apps, some Windows apps (Chirp and Winlink) but no Android or UWP or iOS apps. Of course that does make sense, Linux runs Linux apps, and Android runs Android apps.

As far as Linux Mint runs on this computer, it does have a few glitches. The start menu often will not refresh graphically and every movement just smears the text and icons on it, which can make scrolling through menus nearly impossible.

Also, for some reason it won't always shut down completely and after several minutes I end up just yanking the power cord and taking out the battery or holding down the power button until it forces it to shut off.

Other than that, the computer does run very well for a 16 year old computer. In some aspects it does run Linux better than it does Windows 10, although I wouldn't call the Windows 10 experience as being bad.

So the experience thus far with Linux leads me to these questions that I suppose only I can answer:

• Could I get by with this computer with Linux even if that means losing apps on it that I would normally deem as essential (for an example, just use my phone for android apps and the computer for everything else)?
• Could I repurpose the computer for something else that would be of benefit to me (for an example, a proxy server or a NAS)?
• What about just trying the workarounds to get Windows 11 working on it and seeing if that is worth the trouble?
• And what about my other computers or computers I help family and friends with*, none of which are Windows 11 compatible according to Microsoft?
  • Surface GO (1)
  • Asus Maxmimus IV with Intel Core i7-2600K
  • HP Envy x360 m6 with Intel Core i5-6200U (Wife's)
  • HP Envy 23 all-in-one with Intel Core i5-4570T (Wife's)
  • And many more, mostly 2nd gen Intel machines, but also an old Mac Book, and a couple old AMD laptops and even an old AMD desktop.*

*I've found some 20 or more cheap or free computers that I clean installed W10 on them and put whatever else was needed for their purpose (more RAM, SSD, sometimes a better processor) and gave them to friends and family who needed them during the pandemic, even sending them to other countries at times. Some of the computers on the above were ones people were throwing away, but I got them cleaned up and working. It would be a shame to see all these computers end up in the trash in four years just because they don't meet the Windows 11 (or MacOS apps) requirements.

 

[USAFRet]

What about just trying the workarounds to get Windows 11 working on it and seeing if that is worth the trouble?

I would put that as a non-starter, unless it is in the hands of a very tech savvy person.
To give to some random person? No.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

I would put that as a non-starter, unless it is in the hands of a very tech savvy person.
To give to some random person? No.

Well, I'll find out how hard it is. So far, trying to emulate Android on Linux has also been much harder than I thought it would be, and in the end nothing worked.

I'll share my thoughts on how hard it was to install Windows 11 on an ancient computer and how that compares to Linux, as well as the performance. Of course, the thing with Windows is that the performance can suddenly change, so there's allways that to keep in mind.

Right now I'm installing the W11 installation on a USB thumb drive.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

I would put that as a non-starter, unless it is in the hands of a very tech savvy person.
To give to some random person? No.

I just bypassed the TPM, CPU, Secure Start and RAM checks and so far Windows11 is installing. I don't think that editing the Windows Registery during installation is any harder that using the Terminal in Linux to add a simple feature or program. I do think that trying to add an Android emulator to Linux is more difficult than bypassing the installation checks on Windows.

BUT... I don't have Windows fully installed yet. It's going, and I'll let you know how it turns out. The hard, if not impossible part will probably be getting drivers that work, although I would venture to guess that the generic drivers will work ok. We'll see.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

So Windows 11 runs. It's not fast or smooth, but it does get the job done. Although this computer had a valid Windows 10 key it shows up as not activated with Windows 11. The app that will probably have the most problems is Zoom. I will try to use it tomorrow hopefully.

I'm also trying to fix the graphics driver as it looks rather horrible with everything too big and wider than need be. There used to be a site with a workaround to get the NVidia graphics driver for Windows 7 and 8 to work on 10 (and hopefully 11) but I can't find the site and the graphics driver will not install so I-m stuck with the crappy generic driver that doesn't use the graphics card to the fullest.

With Linux the fans would turn up as it worked under load. With Windows 11 the fans barely spin and turn off a lot and the computer is quite slow indicating it doesn't use much of the CPU or GPU.

 

[USAFRet]

So Windows 11 runs. It's not fast or smooth, but it does get the job done. Although this computer had a valid Windows 10 key it shows up as not activated with Windows 11. The app that will probably have the most problems is Zoom. I will try to use it tomorrow hopefully.

Why forcefit Win 11 vs a normally running WIn10?

 

[Isaac Zackary]

Why forcefit Win 11 vs a normally running WIn10?

For testing purposes.

There's no real reason to switch to Windows 11 (or an alternative like Linux) until sometime around October of 2025 when security updates cease and/or the creators of apps deemed essential by the user are no longer updated for Windows 10 and therefore become less useful or unuseful.

Obviously a lot can happen between now and the end of 2025, but I don't have a single computer that is currently considered Windows 11 compatible and I don't want that day to come and not be ready for it. I'd rather know what my options are, what will work and what won't, so I can make an informed decision.

I could think like Microsoft wants me to and do this:

• Microsoft wants me to buy a new computer for everyone in my family that uses their own personal computer by the end of 2025 so I should just start planning on buying new computers.

But the way I prefer to think is:

• Can I just keep using Windows 10 forever?
• If not, will Linux work for me?
• If not, can I make my non-compatible computers run Windows 11 anyway?
• If not, will I be able to find cheap or free used replacement computers?
• If not, can we live without owning computers?
• If not, then I'll need to buy a new computer or new computers at some point.

 

[USAFRet]

For testing purposes.

There's no real reason to switch to Windows 11 (or an alternative like Linux) until sometime around October of 2025 when security updates cease and/or the creators of apps deemed essential by the user are no longer updated for Windows 10 and therefore become less useful or unuseful.

Obviously a lot can happen between now and the end of 2025, but I don't have a single computer that is currently considered Windows 11 compatible and I don't want that day to come and not be ready for it. I'd rather know what my options are, what will work and what won't, so I can make an informed decision.

I could think like Microsoft wants me to and do this:

• Microsoft wants me to buy a new computer for everyone in my family that uses their own personal computer by the end of 2025 so I should just start planning on buying new computers.

But the way I prefer to think is:

• Can I just keep using Windows 10 forever?
• If not, will Linux work for me?
• If not, can I make my non-compatible computers run Windows 11 anyway?
• If not, will I be able to find cheap or free used replacement computers?
• If not, can we live without owning computers?
• If not, then I'll need to buy a new computer or new computers at some point.

Except for Surface devices, Microsoft does not sell computers.
A Win 10 license is directly changeable to Win 11, on relevant hardware.

MS has little need for you to buy new hardware.

A lot can happen in the next 3-4 years.

I have 1 system on Win 11, 1 system that is maybe upgrdeable to 11, and the rest,...all still on Win 10.
Anything that is not directly upgradeable to WIn 11 will be near a decade old by the time WIn 10 falls off support in 2025.

And the only reason I have the one system on Win 11 is that I got a VERY good deal from a friend, back in October 2021.

OS upgrades often invalidate older hardware.
If we look back at Win 98....would you expect a system bought in 1998 to be applicable with the new OS in 2009, Win Vista? Not a chance.
That timespan is little different than what Win 10 is going through.

 

[USAFRet]

Win 10 spoiled us regarding hardware compatibility.
I personally have a laptop from 2009 running Win 10.
It is slow, because it is a slow cheesy laptop.

Other people have Win 10 running on even older hardware.

Discussion - What's the oldest and/or cheesiest system you have Win 10 installed on?

Mine is a 2009 era Toshiba Satellite L305-S5955 Celeron 900, 2.2GHz, 2GB RAM, 250GB HDD. The only upgrade from stock was a warranty replacement of the original 160GB HDD to the current 250GB. Currently v1903, Build 18362.295 https://www.cnet.com/products/toshiba-satellite-l305-s5955/specs/...

forums.tomshardware.com

But that is NOT the norm.
A new OS on 10 year old hardware is unusual in the Windows world.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

Except for Surface devices, Microsoft does not sell computers.
A Win 10 license is directly changeable to Win 11, on relevant hardware.

MS has little need for you to buy new hardware.

I wasn't referring to buying hardware from Microsoft, but that I don't have a single computer that is considered Windows 11 compatible. If the computer isn't compatible with Windows 11 then the Microsoft "solution" is to buy any new computer, not just a Microsoft one.

A lot can happen in the next 3-4 years.

...

OS upgrades often invalidate older hardware.
If we look back at Win 98....would you expect a system bought in 1998 to be applicable with the new OS in 2009, Win Vista? Not a chance.
That timespan is little different than what Win 10 is going through.

Win 10 spoiled us regarding hardware compatibility.
I personally have a laptop from 2009 running Win 10.
It is slow, because it is a slow cheesy laptop.

Other people have Win 10 running on even older hardware.

Discussion - What's the oldest and/or cheesiest system you have Win 10 installed on?

Mine is a 2009 era Toshiba Satellite L305-S5955 Celeron 900, 2.2GHz, 2GB RAM, 250GB HDD. The only upgrade from stock was a warranty replacement of the original 160GB HDD to the current 250GB. Currently v1903, Build 18362.295 https://www.cnet.com/products/toshiba-satellite-l305-s5955/specs/...

forums.tomshardware.com

But that is NOT the norm.
A new OS on 10 year old hardware is unusual in the Windows world.

Agreed that we got kind of spoiled with OS upgrades with Windows 10. But on the other hand, the need to stay up to date has never been greater.

For an example, I skipped from Windows 3.1 to Windows 98 to Windows Vista. I never owned a 95, ME, 2000 or XP machine. And I also skipped Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 between Windows Vista to Windows 10 (which I installed on my Windows Vista laptop. So that's three computers in 30 years. I just didn't have a reason to keep up to date back then, and I know many that didn't back then either.

But now, the apps I have deemed as necessary won't work properly even on earlier versions of Windows 10. My Surface go is not Windows 11 compatible, and it will be less than 6 years old when Windows 10 loses support. So now I've gone from one computer every 10 years to possibly one every 5 or 6 IF I don't try something else.

And now it's not just desktops and laptops. It's tablets and cellphones and videogame consoles and Roku boxes and Smart TVs too. And to be honest, I'm just burnt out on this whole continuous need to upgrade. Sometimes I wish I could go back to just having a home phone and going to the library if I need to use the internet or print something.

One thing that really bugs me is when I get a new device that doesn't have features I loved in my old device.

 

[USAFRet]

I wasn't referring to buying hardware from Microsoft, but that I don't have a single computer that is considered Windows 11 compatible. If the computer isn't compatible with Windows 11 then the Microsoft "solution" is to buy any new computer, not just a Microsoft one.

People are going to buy a new device no matter what.

Most people, in my experience...non-techies....have zero idea of what "OS" their thing is running.
They don't buy a new system because it is Win 11.

A PC purchased in the last 3 years or so is Win 11 compatible, and will upgrade to that seamlessly.
A PC bought earlier than that, will, for most people, be replaced anyway. Or they will continue on with whatever it came with, oblivious to Win 10/8/7 being off support.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

People are going to buy a new device no matter what.

Most people, in my experience...non-techies....have zero idea of what "OS" their thing is running.
They don't buy a new system because it is Win 11.

A PC purchased in the last 3 years or so is Win 11 compatible, and will upgrade to that seamlessly.
A PC bought earlier than that, will, for most people, be replaced anyway. Or they will continue on with whatever it came with, oblivious to Win 10/8/7 being off support.

I guess I'm not most people.

I also apparently don't buy the type of computer most people buy. I bought my Surface Go brand new from the Microsoft Store online in December of 2019, or just over 2 years ago, and it is not Windows 11 compatible.

I'm not saying that getting a new computer isn't out of the question for me. Maybe that's the way I should go by either the time Windows 10 dies or if I accidentally wreck my Sufrace Go before then.

I do really like the Surface concept, but I don't think I'd ever buy one again.

 

[USAFRet]

I guess I'm not most people.

I also apparently don't buy the type of computer most people buy. I bought my Surface Go brand new from the Microsoft Store online in December of 2019, or just over 2 years ago, and it is not Windows 11 compatible.

I'm not saying that getting a new computer isn't out of the question for me. Maybe that's the way I should go by either the time Windows 10 dies or if I accidentally wreck my Sufrace Go before then.

I do really like the Surface concept, but I don't think I'd ever buy one again.

Like you, I am not one of "those people" either.
The only one of my current prebuilt systems is on the fence about Win 11 is a Beelink Ryzen 5 3550h thing that is my HTPC. On the fence, only because the Win Update function has not yet told me NO, as it has with all my other systems.

But I'm surprised that a 2019 Surface device is not viable.
Have you run the update checker thing to see why not? It may be just a TPM setting in the BIOS.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

Like you, I am not one of "those people" either.
The only one of my current prebuilt systems is on the fence about Win 11 is a Beelink Ryzen 5 3550h thing that is my HTPC. On the fence, only because the Win Update function has not yet told me NO, as it has with all my other systems.

But I'm surprised that a 2019 Surface device is not viable.
Have you run the update checker thing to see why not? It may be just a TPM setting in the BIOS.

I just looked at Windows Update and nope, not compatible. I also re-ran the Micorsoft PC Health Check app and it says that the CPU (Intel Pentium 4415Y) is not compatible.

I think this is what bothers me the most. I buy a brand new Surface, directly from Microsoft, and in less than 2 years out comes the next operating system and everyone else gets a free upgrade but I get a red X and parragraph stating I need a new computer everytime I go to update it. And yes, I know how to force Windows 11 onto it. But I also risk being locked into and unregistered device with no guarantee that Microsoft will provide updates to it.

Obviously the computer will last 5 years and 10 months from the time I bought it to the time W10 is retired. But it was made by Microsoft, the company that knew Windows 11 was going to happen!

First generation Surface Go not supported by Windows 11?! : Surface (reddit.com)

 

[USAFRet]

OK, yeah, that sux.
Same as first gen Ryzen CPUs....not supported.

Not trying to apologize for MS in any way, but they had to draw the line somewhere.

Wherever that line was, some people would be on the wrong side of it.
Win 10 spoiled us.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

OK, yeah, that sux.
Same as first gen Ryzen CPUs....not supported.

Not trying to apologize for MS in any way, but they had to draw the line somewhere.

Wherever that line was, some people would be on the wrong side of it.
Win 10 spoiled us.

We also get to draw our own lines. I still have to figure out on which side of my line Microsoft falls.

Mind you that we're also in a time that other prices are skyrocketing. I know that most people are on a spending spree. Again, I'm not most people. Rent here has trippled. Car prices are soaring. My electric bill is double what it was a year ago. Deaths in the family due to the pandemic have hurt the rest of us financially. Food and gasoline are going up. I'm cheap and don't have cable TV and I have the cheapest phone and internet plans possible not because I want to be cheap, but because I have to.

And Microsoft says, "Sorry to hear that. But go buy a new computer because we will stop supporting yours."

 

[Isaac Zackary]

I need to try this:

GitHub - linux-surface/linux-surface: Linux Kernel for Surface Devices

 

[Isaac Zackary]

Ok. So I think this is what I want to at least try...

I want to try Linux again on a newer machine and see how the one Android app I feel I need works on something like AnBox. If I can get it to work, then the question would be, can I switch completely away from Microsoft? I noticed I have about 150GB on OneDrive. Just one hard drive in the big computer (that I found in a dumpster) is 2TB. I have several 500GB hard drives. How hard would it be to put together a NAS and dump OneDrive and my Office 365 account?

 

[Isaac Zackary]

• Surface GO (1)
• Asus Maxmimus IV with Intel Core i7-2600K
• HP Envy x360 m6 with Intel Core i5-6200U (Wife's)
• HP Envy 23 all-in-one with Intel Core i5-4570T (Wife's)

These four machines have SSE 4.1, SSE 4.2 and SSSE3, so should all be compatible with AnBox in theory.

So here I go again. On the HP Envy 23 all-in-one with touchscreen, I split the 1TB drive in two and am installing Linux Mint on one of those partitions with Windows 10 still on the other. I'll see about installing Gnome desktop on Mint later. In the live USB session I was able to change FireFox to work well with the touchscreen. So we'll see how this computer does with Linux.

Edit:

This computer did accept the AnBox install. Later today I'll see how well it works with JW Library.

 

[Isaac Zackary]

The second computer in the uncharted waters of Linux:

General problems (solved as far as I'm concerned):
I did hit a hitch that I couldn't connect to Wi-Fi. I also couldn't get Anbox to work. Turning off secure-boot fixed both problems. I haven't tried turning secure-boot back on to see if either problem comes back.

Touchscreen problems:
I got Gnome 3 installed and it does feel more natural with the touchscreen. I had to run a command to get FireFox to work with the touchscreen inputs. However, I can't allways find the onboard keyboard. Not only does it not pop up automatically when I tap a text box, I can't seem to find a button for it.

Android emulation problems:
Anbox works, and I got JW Library up and running. But the videos and audio won't load. It also crashes quite often, mostly when moving from one document to another. This sometimes makes Anbox freeze and I have to logg out and back in to get it to close.

I have tried Qemu and Virtual Box with Android x86 (LineageOS). It works quite smoothly in Qemu, but I don't have any sound. That, and the interface is kind of a pain as touchscreen input doesn't work well with Qemu and the mouse is "grabbed" when you use Qemu, and you have to do a weird keyboard combination to "ungrab" the mouse cursor arrow. I think with a bit more tinkering I might be able to get the sound to work. I wasn't able to get Android x86 (LineageOS) to start up in Virtual Box at all yet. It just freezes during the installation of Android.

Conclusion thus far:
On a new-enough computer, Android emulation becomes feasible, but not perfect. Something like BlueStacks on Windows is a much better android experience, IMO.

Touchscreen with Gnome on Mint Cinammon isn't bad. But without an easy way to access the onscreen keyboard it can be a pain if I don't have the keyboard nearby.