Someone please tell me the rules on deposing cities

[Boris]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

I am really fed up with capturing a town, starting to starve it out to
ethnically cleanse it, leaving a garrison in there, only to see the people
depose the rightful leader and go back to the opposition - wiping out my
garrison in the process.

Why does a town revolt? I know the Civilopedia says that a strong garrison
discourages it, but what level of troops actually prevents it?

I know I am angst-ridden - this has happened for the umpteenth time, this
time in a game where everything has gone against me: Neapolis founded on a
hill, defended by walls, but it fell to a straight attack by two (non-
elite) Aztec swordsmen. My counterattack involved 8 legions, 4 of them
elite, but they all died. The only effect they had was to increase the
defenders to elite status.

Is the game really fair? Why was it that the Aztecs seemed to throw
numerous forces at me, regardless of cost, still progressing up the tech
tree, leaving me behind, struggling to keep legions in the field? Is the
game fair? Does it enable AI opponents to build units and make advances
that you and I couldn't?

Yours angst-ridden
Boris

 

[Guest]

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On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:49:51 -0000, Boris <boris@home.com> wrote:

>I am really fed up with capturing a town, starting to starve it out to
>ethnically cleanse it, leaving a garrison in there, only to see the people
>depose the rightful leader and go back to the opposition - wiping out my
>garrison in the process.
>
>Why does a town revolt? I know the Civilopedia says that a strong garrison
>discourages it, but what level of troops actually prevents it?

If the town has resistors, it is one unit per resistor to stop a
revolt. If the resistance is suppressed, you need two units per every
citizen of the opposing civilization. Only ground attack units count
for garrisons. This is as of the latest Civ3 patches (or
PTW/Conquests). Earlier versions didn't have the garrison suppression
effect.

The risk of cultural conversion is dependent on the relative
cultural power of you and the other civ, as well as the happiness in
the city. The more culture the otther side has relative to you, the
greater the chance of deposing. If they have way more culture than
you, it will be hard to keep the city loyal.

One way to guarantee that a city will not flip to a civilization is
to wipe that civilization out entirely. They can't convert if there
is no one to convert to.

Short of that, drop piles of your own workers or settlers into the
city, take over all nearby enemy cities (so none overlap that city),
and keep garrisons to a minimum if you can't put in enough to suppress
rebellion. Big cities are hard to keep intact, so the best way I've
found to manage them is to accept the risk of rebellion, only putting
in enough garrison to suppress resistance (which is a fixed chance, so
you can stop it entirely with enough troops), and not leaving them
once the resistance stops. Until I *can* secure the city, it is
better to let it rebel with a small loss and retake it, rather than
lose a large force.

>I know I am angst-ridden - this has happened for the umpteenth time, this
>time in a game where everything has gone against me: Neapolis founded on a
>hill, defended by walls, but it fell to a straight attack by two (non-
>elite) Aztec swordsmen. My counterattack involved 8 legions, 4 of them
>elite, but they all died. The only effect they had was to increase the
>defenders to elite status.

If you gamble, you know that sometimes people win at low odds. That
happens in this game (and in any others which have a statistical
chance factor).

>Is the game really fair? Why was it that the Aztecs seemed to throw
>numerous forces at me, regardless of cost, still progressing up the tech
>tree, leaving me behind, struggling to keep legions in the field? Is the
>game fair? Does it enable AI opponents to build units and make advances
>that you and I couldn't?

The AI has no combat edge over humans. The AI only has a production
edge based on the difficulty level -- at Monarch and above, it
outproduces humans. At Regent, it is equal, and at lower difficulty
levels the human beats the AI in productivity. The AI also does a
fairly good job of trading, and in that, the AI has an edge over
humans. The AI is "smarter" about AI to AI trading, and it favors the
other AI players over the human at higher difficulty levels. Unless
you handle diplomacy well with the other AI, they'll tend to roll over
you in trade deals.

The AI does adopt a decent strategy for emphasizing production, and
if you can't match that, it will beat you. It isn't perfect (or else
humans wouldn't win at Emperor and above), but it isn't a totally
stupid AI.
--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Boris" <boris@home.com> wrote:

> Why does a town revolt? I know the Civilopedia says
> that a strong garrison discourages it, but what level
> of troops actually prevents it?

helpful guideline:

(# of units in garrison) > (# of resistors in city)


hth


crichmon

 

[daran]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

crichmon <crichmon@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Boris" <boris@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Why does a town revolt? I know the Civilopedia says that a strong
>> garrison discourages it, but what level of troops actually prevents it?
>
> helpful guideline:
>
> (# of units in garrison) > (# of resistors in city)

That's way inadequate. I have seen cities revolt with a garrison of more
than twice the number of citizens, (and they weren't even in revolt).

I don't even know if it's even possible to reduce the risk to zero without
eliminating the foreign civ.

However the probability of a defection on any given turn is small. It's
only when you have several cities over several turns that it becomes
inevitable.

To give yourself a fighting chance of holding (most of) your acquisitions in
the long run, you have to get the per-turn probability as low as possible,
as quickly as possible. Here's what you do:

1: QUELL THE RESISTANCE, preferably within a single turn. This allows you
to:

2: EXPAND ITS BORDERS if under cultural pressure from nearby cities, by
rushbuilding cultural improvements. You can expand them in three turns by
rushing a library, wait a turn, then rush a temple. (If you do the temple
first, then your borders will take four turns to expand.) You can expand
them in two turns by rushbuilding a library, then next turn disband a unit
(don't rush from scratch, it's twice as expensive), and rush a university.
Alternatively:

3. CAPTURE NEARBY ENEMY CITIES, to eliminate their cultural pressure. Of
course, this merely moves the problem elsewhere. Another thing to consider
is to CAPTURE THE ENEMY CAPITAL. My understanding is that it moves to the
enemy city with the most culture. This may also just move the problem
elsewhere, but with a bit of luck, it will be a long way away.

4. ELIMINATE FOREIGN POPULATION, by starving (or forced labour if you have
an appropriate government.) You will never get rid of the last one.

5. ADD YOUR OWN POPULATION, by joining workers if necessary.

6. ELIMINATE UNHAPPINESS so that you can celebrate a WLT?D. If you have
lots of luxuries, then building a marketplace can do wonders.

7. The only long-term solution is to BUILD UP CULTURE, in the at-risk
cities themselves, in nearby cities, and in your civ as a whole.

> crichmon

--
Daran

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James D. Nicoll

 

[Boris]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote in
news:le2a01pf330m85ejkb1l5pma02rcrclfle@4ax.com:

thanks guys - I just lost the game.

I see what you say, but I just seemed to lose every combat in that game -
elite legions wiped out in series before my eyes, and by no means just the
once.

the tips on cities are good - you have confirmed what I thought, it is best
to allow for the fact that cities will rebel, and then be ready to re-take
them asap when they do.

cheers
Boris
> The AI has no combat edge over humans. The AI only has a production
> edge based on the difficulty level -- at Monarch and above, it
> outproduces humans. At Regent, it is equal, and at lower difficulty
> levels the human beats the AI in productivity. The AI also does a
> fairly good job of trading, and in that, the AI has an edge over
> humans. The AI is "smarter" about AI to AI trading, and it favors the
> other AI players over the human at higher difficulty levels. Unless
> you handle diplomacy well with the other AI, they'll tend to roll over
> you in trade deals.
>
> The AI does adopt a decent strategy for emphasizing production, and
> if you can't match that, it will beat you. It isn't perfect (or else
> humans wouldn't win at Emperor and above), but it isn't a totally
> stupid AI.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:49:51 -0000, Boris <boris@home.com> wrote:
> I am really fed up with capturing a town, starting to starve it out to
> ethnically cleanse it, leaving a garrison in there, only to see the people
> depose the rightful leader and go back to the opposition - wiping out my
> garrison in the process.
>
> Why does a town revolt? I know the Civilopedia says that a strong garrison
> discourages it, but what level of troops actually prevents it?

Let 'em go. Stick 3 or 4 units in there, and keep moving forward
with your attack. They seem to wait a couple turns before flipping,
and when they do, there are only 3 or 4 units in it, and you can take
it in one turn.

Beats tying up a dozen or more units that could be taking the _next_ city.

 

[Guest]

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On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 14:40:01 +0000, Daran <daranSPAMg@lineone.net>
wrote:

>crichmon <crichmon@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Boris" <boris@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Why does a town revolt? I know the Civilopedia says that a strong
>>> garrison discourages it, but what level of troops actually prevents it?
>>
>> helpful guideline:
>>
>> (# of units in garrison) > (# of resistors in city)
>
>That's way inadequate. I have seen cities revolt with a garrison of more
>than twice the number of citizens, (and they weren't even in revolt).

No, that is valid while there are resistors. Once the resistance is
gone, then you need more citizens in order to suppress cultural
conversion. Rebellion via resistors is different from cultural
conversion -- the relative culture isn't a factor in rebellion.

>I don't even know if it's even possible to reduce the risk to zero without
>eliminating the foreign civ.

The large garrison will do it, with the only exception being cities
within the radius of the civ's capital. I think that the capital has
special status with regard to cultural conversion, so leaving the
enemy with their original capital intact, with its high cultural
influence, makes conversion more likely -- but only for cities within
the cultural border of the capital.

Double the citizens in a large city is a lot of units -- a
population 12 city needs 24 ground attack units in order to get the
full benefit. It isn't easy to tie up that much force during a war.
Since air and artillery units don't count, you can't use those things
to beef up a garrison, and they end up being at high risk if based in
cities which aren't securely yours.


--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Boris" <boris@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95F4CE4C24415boristhedecapitator@216.168.3.30...
> Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote in
> news:le2a01pf330m85ejkb1l5pma02rcrclfle@4ax.com:
>
> thanks guys - I just lost the game.
>
> I see what you say, but I just seemed to lose every combat in that game -
> elite legions wiped out in series before my eyes, and by no means just the
> once.

I nearly never suffer flips and usually gain 3-5 flipped cities per game.
First of all, I always play at Chieftain and always select the Americans on
a large map. The expansionistic side of the Americans gives me a early tech
advantage. The expansionist perk of Scouts and very good Goodie Huts gives
me two-thirds or more of the Dark Age tech for free on a large map. (Smaller
maps kill this advantage.) This allows me to focus my Science more
productively by going for Literature (Library) first, Map Making (Maps,
Galley) second, and tend push for Monarchy. By the time I reach (and switch
to) Monarchy, I have gotten the defender/attacker techs for free from the
Goodie Huts and I am near ready to switch to the next age and I am well
ahead of the opposition.

The productive side of America gives me Workers that are twice as fast as
most of the opposition allowing me to build more roads faster which
increases Commerce which in turn increases Science and Tax revenue (to rush
build Culture). The downside of America is getting F-15 as the special unit
but, the tech, commerce, and production bonuses it receives allows me to be
technologically and numerically superior to my enemies in any wars even
without a special unit.

Speaking of wars, I try to hold out until I get Modern Armor/Mech. Infantry
before I eliminate my enemies. I also have found that Calvary are the ideal
Garrison troops as they can travel further through enemy territory then
Mech. Infantry and can be mass produced during the third tech era by the
strong cities while I am waiting for the medium cities to catch up on
building upgrades (Banks, University, Police, Hospitals, and Airports).

Another tactic I use is to declare war at the end of a turn and then do
nothing. On their turn they tend mass a huge stack of counter-attacking
troops and on my second turn I send my Armor to grind down their "super"
stack. This tactic allows you to eliminate the majority of their annoyances
at the start of the war and tends to produce leaders quickly. In my best
game ever for making leaders, I unleashed a stack of armor against their
stack of Calvary and finished with 6 leaders, which quickly became Elite
Armor Armies in which to attack the enemy cities. More likely, you can
expect about 2 leaders from attacking a stack of 24 Calvary but, you will
still end up with a lot of Elite Armor to attack enemy cities and later fill
into Military Academy Armies as they are made.

As far as the Hall of Fame score goes, a quick conquest victory is bad. As
an experiment, I saved the game with 16 turns to go and then took the last
two enemy cities in the world to get a Conquest Victory and then check my
score and saw that I appeared to get a Conquest bonus that, of course, got
averaged out to just a few extra game points. Next, I re-load the game and
instead, I ignored the last two cities and spent the remaining turns of the
game building up the two empires I had destroyed in the recent long war and
timed the game to end with a Spaceship Victory. The adding of Temples,
Coliseums, and Marketplaces to my captured cities increased happiness,
territory (jumping from 9 squares to 20 square [a 122% territory increase
per enemy city]), and population enough to increase my final score quite
significantly over the conquest score even with just 16 extra turns at
Chieftain level.

I prefer Pangaea over the other landforms as it allows me to extend free
building Wonders (Pyramids, Sun Tzu, Hoover Dam, and the Internet) to
captured enemy cities giving me Granaries, Barracks, Hydro Power, and Tech
Labs (+2 culture) instantly. I rush build Temples first in my captured enemy
cities (for their crowd control aspect) before libraries even though Libs
have better culture +3 versus +2. My typical rush build list is: Temple,
Courthouse, Colisuem, Aqueduct, Police, Marketplace, and then Library.

-Rob

>
> the tips on cities are good - you have confirmed what I thought, it is
> best
> to allow for the fact that cities will rebel, and then be ready to re-take
> them asap when they do.
>
> cheers
> Boris

 

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"Rob Maxwell" <robu-san@excite.com> wrote in message
news:36on6pF51kqkiU1@individual.net...
>
> "Boris" <boris@home.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95F4CE4C24415boristhedecapitator@216.168.3.30...
>> Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote in
>> news:le2a01pf330m85ejkb1l5pma02rcrclfle@4ax.com:
>>
>> thanks guys - I just lost the game.
>>
>> I see what you say, but I just seemed to lose every combat in that game -
>> elite legions wiped out in series before my eyes, and by no means just
>> the
>> once.

Boris, sounds like a run of very bad luck 🙁
It does work both ways though, I've lost a dozen tanks taking a city held by
3 or 4 infantry before, but sometimes luck favours the brave. Like taking a
city held by 3 riflemen (one veteran, two normal) with 4 longbowmen, all
veteran (very nasty civfanatics 'game of the month' game where the start
location had no saltpeter, horses or iron nearby...think it was emp.
difficulty playing the sumerians)


>
> I nearly never suffer flips and usually gain 3-5 flipped cities per game.
> First of all, I always play at Chieftain and always select the Americans
> on a large map. The expansionistic side of the Americans gives me a early
> tech
<snip>

Rob, you *really* need to start playing at a higher difficulty level -
regent maybe? Sounds like you are walking all over the AI at the level you
are playing now....

Dave


---
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[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

"Sloth" <dave@removethis.sloth.plus.com> wrote in message
news:42092696$0$29355$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>
> "Rob Maxwell" <robu-san@excite.com> wrote in message
> news:36on6pF51kqkiU1@individual.net...
>>

>
>
>>
>> I nearly never suffer flips and usually gain 3-5 flipped cities per game.
>> First of all, I always play at Chieftain and always select the Americans
>> on a large map. The expansionistic side of the Americans gives me a early
>> tech
> <snip>
>
> Rob, you *really* need to start playing at a higher difficulty level -
> regent maybe? Sounds like you are walking all over the AI at the level you
> are playing now....
>

I tried that already. I had a win and a loss at the next level and was
getting killed at tech. Honestly, I prefer to win easily. If I am going to
play a game for 3-4-5 days, I want to win for my efforts.

I did eliminate Culture Victory so the game would not end so soon.

-Rob

> Dave
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.823 / Virus Database: 561 - Release Date: 26/12/2004
>

 

[Guest]

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Boris <boris@home.com> wrote:

>I am really fed up with capturing a town, starting to starve it out to
>ethnically cleanse it, leaving a garrison in there, only to see the people
>depose the rightful leader and go back to the opposition - wiping out my
>garrison in the process.
>
>Why does a town revolt? I know the Civilopedia says that a strong garrison
>discourages it, but what level of troops actually prevents it?

"Strong" means lots, not the type of unit. You can stack obsolete and
wounded units in it to free modern troops to attack.

It helps to bombard the town down to size before taking over because
of the cost of garrisoning it. Generally it is 4 troops per resistor,
plus 1 per foreigner, plus 2 per tile under enemy control which
results in a LOT of garrison troops: 22 for a town with 1 foreigner, 2
resistors and 6 tiles under enemy control (as is often the case in
border towns). Even then, this only minimizes the chance, not
eliminating it.

The closer to the exact number you cut it, the longer it can take to
end the resistance, especially of your culture, gov and luxuries are
not as gratifying as what they had. You can 'overload' the garrison
to end the resistance in one turn, then move out the better units to
minimize your loss if it does flip.

Once the resistance ends and you are starving, set them to
entertainers or scientists just to the point where there is a
shortage. Very rarely will more than one starve per turn, so leaving
the rest producing gets that temple or whatever built sooner.

 

[daran]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote:

> No, that is valid while there are resistors. Once the resistance is
> gone, then you need more citizens in order to suppress cultural
> conversion. Rebellion via resistors is different from cultural
> conversion -- the relative culture isn't a factor in rebellion.

I didn't know this, thanks for the information.

Does this mean that a city in resistance can't culturally convert?

--
Daran

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words;
on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary. -- James D. Nicoll

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.civ3 (More info?)

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 06:46:08 +0000, Daran <daranSPAMg@lineone.net>
wrote:

>Jeffery S. Jones <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote:
>
>> No, that is valid while there are resistors. Once the resistance is
>> gone, then you need more citizens in order to suppress cultural
>> conversion. Rebellion via resistors is different from cultural
>> conversion -- the relative culture isn't a factor in rebellion.
>
>I didn't know this, thanks for the information.
>
>Does this mean that a city in resistance can't culturally convert?

I've never seen it happen. What I've read implies that rebellion is
entirely separate from cultural conversion.
--
*-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
*Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>