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I have what appears to be an easy question, but it actually made us think
for a little while. Here goes:

The other night in a draft, my opponent had a flipped Nezumi Graverobber
(Nighteyes, the Desecrator) in play. I had a Moonlit Strider in play. Combat
got tricky, and the Strider went to the graveyard, and I couldn't Soulshift.
Later on, he brought back my Strider from my graveyard (with the Nighteyes),
and it survived combat. However, after combat, when there were small spirits
in my graveyard, he was about to sacrifice the Strider to give one of his
creatures pro-White. Before he did, I stopped him, asking what on earth
would happen with the Soulshift. Turns out, he didn't need to do it, so we
avoided the whole situation, but here's what I think would have happened:

He sacs the Strider, gives another one of his creatures Pro-White.
Strider hits MY graveyard, Soulshift triggers.
I get to choose whether or not to soulshift, and if so, which creature to
bring back.

He said that *he* could choose whether or not to soulshift, but I disagreed.

I think he'd control the activated ability of the Strider, but once it hit
the graveyard, it became mine again, and I'd do the soulshifting.

Amiright?

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
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In news:3addseF69nlk4U1@individual.net,
Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> rambled:
<snip>

Sorry, here's the cards:

Moonlit Strider
3W
Creature - Spirit
1/4
Sacrifice Moonlit Strider: Target creature you control gains protection from
the color of your choice until end of turn.
Soulshift 3 (When this is put into a graveyard from play, you may return
target Spirit card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard to
your hand.)


Nezumi Graverobber
1B
Creature - Rat Rogue
2/1
1B: Remove target card in an opponent's graveyard from the game. If no cards
are in that graveyard, flip Nezumi Graverobber.
-----
Nighteyes the Desecrator
Legendary Creature - Rat Wizard
4/2
4B: Put target creature card in a graveyard into play under your control.


--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:

> I have what appears to be an easy question, but it actually made us think
> for a little while. Here goes:
>
> The other night in a draft, my opponent had a flipped Nezumi Graverobber
> (Nighteyes, the Desecrator) in play. I had a Moonlit Strider in play. Combat
> got tricky, and the Strider went to the graveyard, and I couldn't Soulshift.
> Later on, he brought back my Strider from my graveyard (with the Nighteyes),
> and it survived combat. However, after combat, when there were small spirits
> in my graveyard, he was about to sacrifice the Strider to give one of his
> creatures pro-White. Before he did, I stopped him, asking what on earth
> would happen with the Soulshift. Turns out, he didn't need to do it, so we
> avoided the whole situation, but here's what I think would have happened:
>
> He sacs the Strider, gives another one of his creatures Pro-White.
> Strider hits MY graveyard, Soulshift triggers.
> I get to choose whether or not to soulshift, and if so, which creature to
> bring back.
>
> He said that *he* could choose whether or not to soulshift, but I disagreed.

He controlled the source of the ability at the time that it triggered.
Ergo, he controls the ability on the stack (and chooses the target for
it).

200.7a The owner of an ability on the stack is the player who controlled
its source when it was played or triggered. The controller of an ability
on the stack is the player who played the ability, or the player who
controlled the ability's source when it triggered.

410.10d Abilities that trigger on one or more permanents leaving play,
or on a player losing control of a permanent, must be treated specially
because the permanent with the ability may no longer be in play after
the event. The game has to "look back in time" to determine what
triggered. Each time an event removes from play or changes who controls
one or more permanents, all the permanents in play just before the event
(with continuous effects that existed at that time) are checked for
trigger events that match what just left play or changed control.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 
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On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 09:48:22 -0500, Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:
>I have what appears to be an easy question, but it actually made us think
>for a little while. Here goes:
>
>The other night in a draft, my opponent had a flipped Nezumi Graverobber
>(Nighteyes, the Desecrator) in play. I had a Moonlit Strider in play. Combat
>got tricky, and the Strider went to the graveyard, and I couldn't Soulshift.
>Later on, he brought back my Strider from my graveyard (with the Nighteyes),
>and it survived combat. However, after combat, when there were small spirits
>in my graveyard, he was about to sacrifice the Strider to give one of his
>creatures pro-White. Before he did, I stopped him, asking what on earth
>would happen with the Soulshift. Turns out, he didn't need to do it, so we
>avoided the whole situation, but here's what I think would have happened:

Let me answer before looking further. Soulshift's a leaves-play triggered
ability, so to see whether the ability exists to trigger, it looks back a
moment to -before- the leaves-play event. At this time the Strider's in play,
and has the ability, so it can trigger. Also, at this time your opponent
controlled the Strider, so he would control its triggered ability and be the
"you" it is talking to; he picks the target Spirit card, which must be in
his graveyard, and it goes to his hand. The Strider itself is going to move
from "in play under his control" to "in your graveyard" ... but its triggered
ability doesn't restrict itself to triggering "When this permanent is put
into YOUR graveyard from play". So it triggers, he controls the ability,
and he gets to return his Spirit from his graveyard to his hand.

Now, onwards:

>He sacs the Strider, gives another one of his creatures Pro-White.
>Strider hits MY graveyard, Soulshift triggers.

Yes.

>I get to choose whether or not to soulshift, and if so, which creature to
>bring back.

No. Soulshift doesn't SAY anything about only triggering when it hits YOUR
graveyard; if it did, it wouldn't trigger at all in this case, because the
player controlling the triggered ability is him, not you. Any "you" in the
ability text talks to the controller of the ability ... which is the same as
the controller of the ability's -source- as it triggered. Which is him.

>He said that *he* could choose whether or not to soulshift, but I disagreed.

He's correct; furthermore, the target must be in his graveyard, and will go
to his hand. You've got no control over this, because you don't control the
ability.

>I think he'd control the activated ability of the Strider, but once it hit
>the graveyard, it became mine again, and I'd do the soulshifting.

He controls the ability, you've got that right. Having the Strider go to your
graveyard, rather than his, does nothing at all to change _who controls the
ability_; as far as I know we've got nothing at all that CAN change the
controller of an ability (or spell, or combat damage) on the stack. Since he's
the ability's controller, he does the choosing of stuff on announcement,
specifically picking the target ... which must be a Spirit card with c.m.c.
3 or less in -his- graveard; since he's still the controller of the ability on
resolution, he decides whether to take the "may" option or not, and if he
does that card goes to HIS hand.

>Amiright?

No, alas.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
 
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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

In news:slrnd43bo4.2u5.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com,
David DeLaney <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> rambled:
><snip>

David, Daniel, thank you. Doesn't seem very intuitive, since the ability
triggers when it hits the graveyard (MY graveyard - and it's no longer under
his control), but it makes perfect sense when outlined with the rules.
Thanks again.

--

KB

Briscobar AT gmail DOT com
 
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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Briscobar <youcant@sendmespam.com> wrote:

> (MY graveyard - and it's no longer under
> his control)

When its in your graveyard, it's not under your control either.

This is to be distinguished from Brood of Cockroaches, which does care
about a difference between its controller and its owner when it dies,
and doesn't trigger if they are different.

Brood of Cockroaches
1B
Creature - Insect
1/1
When Brood of Cockroaches is put into your graveyard from play, at end
of turn, you lose 1 life and return Brood of Cockroaches to your hand.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
 

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