Archived from groups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.rpg,comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.strategic (More info?)
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005, "Brad Wardell" wrote:
first let me thank you very much for coming to the usenet to ask us
gamers our opinion, at least for me it means a lot
its not every day we see someone from inside the pc gaming industry
show interest about us
lately what i found out, specially with valve attitude is they really
don't care! they simply don't give a damn about us gamers
so its very nice knowing not everyone in the industry is like greedy
dictator valve
> Okay guys, this anti-Steam stuff is starting to scare me.
it should
steam is extremely wrong for us gamers
steam is the most damaging system every introduced in pc games
steam is taking away many rights we have gained over the many years
the pc game market has evolved
> Can someone put together a concise list of what it is about Steam that bugs
> you? The reason I ask is that, as time goes on, Stardock is moving more and
> more stuff to Stardock Central. That's what we use to deliver
> TotalGaming.net games to people (http://www.totalgaming.net).
cause i'm almost a exclusive action fps gamer, i didn't know about
stardock, totalgaming or galactic civilizations but another poster has
kindly informed us about it and at first and even without deep knowledge
i would say galactic civilizations meets my requirements
these are the 3 UNNEGOTIABLE requirements i demand to publishers when
it comes to selling/installing/playing pc games:
.. selling in physical medium version cd/dvd, pay once use forever cost
.. patches available for free and distributed in single file format
.. never "ask for permission" humiliation of something you have bought
if not all of these 3 requirements are meet i'll completely refuse to
accept any game
if these 3 unnegotiable requirement disappear from pc games i'll give
up completely on games and move to another hobby
> You may recall that we released Galactic Civilizations in 2003 via Stardock
> Central. It worked as follows:
>
> 1) User buys the game at either:
> a) The store
> b) Direct from www.galciv.com
> c) Buys a Drengin.net (later renamed TotalGaming.net) subscription.
i like that! having choice! its good choice!
i don't mind electronic distribution being available in pc games, i only
ask is the "traditional" way of selling pc games in physical medium like
cd or dvd will also be always available and for every game
i don't like buying games via electronic distribution but i respect those
you want and made it their choice
but please always have the choice for the cd/dvd, its the only thing i'm
asking for
> 2) They then:
> a) Store user installs the game from CD or could even toss out the CD if
> they wanted and just use the serial # to download the full game or updates
> from Stardock Central.
> b) The direct electronic buyer just downloads the game via Stardock
> Central onto their computer.
> c) TotalGaming.net subscriber downloads it, like their other games that
> are part of TG.net and plays it.
again plenty of choice which is good
for me what i require is the cd/dvd i've bought in the store will be
self-contained which means its usability is not dependent on activation
i refuse to buy a game in cd/dvd knowing it will only play after i've
"ask for permission" online activation type process
steam requiring internet access to play a single player game just to
"ask for permission" to use something i just bought is unacceptable!
completely UNACCEPTABLE!
valve is wrongly presuming every costumer is a thief! and i consider
it humiliating!
> Similarly, The Political Machine, published by Ubi Soft, is similar (though
> not quite the same because Ubi Soft didn't include serial #'s in the box).
> But a user can buy The Political Machine from politicalmachine.com and
> install/download it from Stardock Central.
again, if the game has single-player mode the only thing i ask for is it
to be also available in physical medium like a cd or dvd, and you don't
need to "ask permission" to use it and patches freely available in file
format and also freely distributed
> Once it's on your machine, you can use the built in features to back it up
> to CD and put onto other machines (non-net connected ones for instance so
> you can, for example, play Galactic Civilizations on your laptop on the
> plane).
i don't like to make my own home made cd, i prefer much better to buy
a manufactured cd
its not only cause you waste time and money having a recorder and needing
the blank media but its also cause MANUFACTURED cd are much more reliable
than HOME-MADE cds
bottom line: i'm a big fan of buying a PHYSICAL version of the game with
a good case, appealing cover, well done manual, nice quick reference card
and a cd with a fancy print-out
game publishers should not forget many gamer like to "collect" games
almost as much as they like playing then
> The system *seems* to work very well but we've only got ~300,000 users using
> Stardock Central whereas Steam no doubt has a few million.
i hope you will get much more costumers in the future
i would be one of them if you released action oriented fps and always
sold then in a physical medium version being it cd or dvd
as for steam having millions... i don't believe it and then you must not
forget... the bigger the clime the harder the fall... right?
i really hope they fall hard!!!!
> I bought Half-Life 2 via Steam. It downloaded fine. Works great. I even
> copied it to another machine here and it works fine there too. No CDs
it all seems fine in YOUR PC but what about all the other issues? what
about all the other gamers around the world?
that's really the problem with people which defend steam is because they
personally didn't have major issues yet they disregard anyone who has
valid complaints about it
now also let me give you links to two posts made by a fellow gamer and
poster in this group, his name is Spalls Hurgenson and he wrote in a
brilliant way the many implication steam means now and in the future
i would highly recommend you reading it
http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action/messages/696477.html
http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action/messages/696967.html
> involved. So am I missing something here? Steam seems to work pretty well.
not having cds in one of the problems, where is your backup? you cannot
spend 50 or more in software and not have backups!
and how about gamers without internet access?
how about gamers with slow internet access?
how about gamers with pay by the minute internet access?
how about the cd/dvd version of hl2 sold in retail stores requiring net
access to activate and the cover doesn't warn you about it, which only
proves valve is trying to hide steam from costumers
how about the cd/dvd available in store being a lie and should instead
be called "steam for gamers without broadband"
what about you not having control as to what version you can run? like
for example some newer version introduce problems with specific hardware
making the older version best suited for your specific hardware but you
can use it cause valve make you ALWAYS run the latest version
how about valve wanting to end 2nd hand market in pc games?
how about valve talking away every choice possible making us USE steam
to buy, install and play games, i call it wanting a monopoly
how about valve's plan to end selling games in physical medium?
how about what will valve do in the future with steam giving them the
immense power that technology conceals????
lots and lots of questions when it comes to steam!
lots of question and no answers cause valve has a secret plan and it will
be one with a very bad ending for us pc gamers
> I understand the problem where people bought HL2 at the store and that first
> day was problematic. Stardock Central doesn't have that level of validation
> of the CD version but that doesn't seem like a problem inherent to Steam but
> rather a single bad incident one
> suspects.
>
> So what I want to know is why is there all this angst about Steam and what
> do we need to do to avoid that with Stardock Central? Or have we already
don't fear electronic distribution!
the problem is not with electronic distribution!
the problem is valve talking away the choice and forcing things upon
gamers without them wanting!
don't force electronic distribution on pc gamers but instead let us
choose!
let gamers who want to buy via electronic distribution do it and also
let gamers who want the traditional physical medium way buy it too
the problem is ONLY steam related!
valve is taking us freedom to choose and deciding for ourselves!
they are forcing us to do their way!
its extremely wrong!!!!
there is no reason why electronic distribution and traditional one can
not coexist
you don't need to kill traditional distribution to introduce electronic
distribution, but its exactly what valve is doing with steam!!!
so please don't fear introducing electronic distribution in games just
cause of anti-steam, cause anti-steam is not anti-electronic distribution
anti-steam is all about valve neglecting gamers, forcing gamer, and taking
choice from gamers and acting like a tyrannical ruthless dictator
> done something different in Stardock Central that isn't raising these
> concerns? Because in March Galactic Civilizations II goes into beta
> (distributed via Stardock Central) and the last thing we want are people mad
> at us.
>
> Brad
no publisher should use valve's example
valve's is the worse example for a publisher
they are doing it all wrong
they are hiding information
they are neglecting gamers
so i would think the last thing any publisher wants in its name mixed
up with valve or steam
so inform! and let everyone know your way of selling installing and
playing games is completely different from steam and has nothing to
do with there wrong doing
information is very important and i think any publisher must fully
inform its costumers, something valve is not doing
so any publisher which doesn't want to be mixed up with steam cause
steam has already a very BAD image among pc gamers is letting all
pc game costumers know:
.. their game are not like steam based ones and single-player mode will
never ever require internet access, so gamers with no net can always
play and not be neglected
.. their game are not like steam based ones and patches will be freely
available in file format and no activation or even internet access
is required cause they can be easily copied and distributed like
for example in cd magazines or from a friend
.. their games are not like steam based ones which require an humiliating
"ask for permission" online activation, and every gamer which buys the
physical medium version in cd/dvd will have a self-contained product
which can be fully used forever as long as he keeps it
.. their games are not like steam based ones and even with the expansion
of electronic distribution their games will always be available in a
physical medium version being it cd or dvd for those who want
the damage is already done and we no longer trust valve
so please don't do the same mistakes they have
good luck and best of wishes to your business!
--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam
please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005, "Brad Wardell" wrote:
first let me thank you very much for coming to the usenet to ask us
gamers our opinion, at least for me it means a lot
its not every day we see someone from inside the pc gaming industry
show interest about us
lately what i found out, specially with valve attitude is they really
don't care! they simply don't give a damn about us gamers
so its very nice knowing not everyone in the industry is like greedy
dictator valve
> Okay guys, this anti-Steam stuff is starting to scare me.
it should
steam is extremely wrong for us gamers
steam is the most damaging system every introduced in pc games
steam is taking away many rights we have gained over the many years
the pc game market has evolved
> Can someone put together a concise list of what it is about Steam that bugs
> you? The reason I ask is that, as time goes on, Stardock is moving more and
> more stuff to Stardock Central. That's what we use to deliver
> TotalGaming.net games to people (http://www.totalgaming.net).
cause i'm almost a exclusive action fps gamer, i didn't know about
stardock, totalgaming or galactic civilizations but another poster has
kindly informed us about it and at first and even without deep knowledge
i would say galactic civilizations meets my requirements
these are the 3 UNNEGOTIABLE requirements i demand to publishers when
it comes to selling/installing/playing pc games:
.. selling in physical medium version cd/dvd, pay once use forever cost
.. patches available for free and distributed in single file format
.. never "ask for permission" humiliation of something you have bought
if not all of these 3 requirements are meet i'll completely refuse to
accept any game
if these 3 unnegotiable requirement disappear from pc games i'll give
up completely on games and move to another hobby
> You may recall that we released Galactic Civilizations in 2003 via Stardock
> Central. It worked as follows:
>
> 1) User buys the game at either:
> a) The store
> b) Direct from www.galciv.com
> c) Buys a Drengin.net (later renamed TotalGaming.net) subscription.
i like that! having choice! its good choice!
i don't mind electronic distribution being available in pc games, i only
ask is the "traditional" way of selling pc games in physical medium like
cd or dvd will also be always available and for every game
i don't like buying games via electronic distribution but i respect those
you want and made it their choice
but please always have the choice for the cd/dvd, its the only thing i'm
asking for
> 2) They then:
> a) Store user installs the game from CD or could even toss out the CD if
> they wanted and just use the serial # to download the full game or updates
> from Stardock Central.
> b) The direct electronic buyer just downloads the game via Stardock
> Central onto their computer.
> c) TotalGaming.net subscriber downloads it, like their other games that
> are part of TG.net and plays it.
again plenty of choice which is good
for me what i require is the cd/dvd i've bought in the store will be
self-contained which means its usability is not dependent on activation
i refuse to buy a game in cd/dvd knowing it will only play after i've
"ask for permission" online activation type process
steam requiring internet access to play a single player game just to
"ask for permission" to use something i just bought is unacceptable!
completely UNACCEPTABLE!
valve is wrongly presuming every costumer is a thief! and i consider
it humiliating!
> Similarly, The Political Machine, published by Ubi Soft, is similar (though
> not quite the same because Ubi Soft didn't include serial #'s in the box).
> But a user can buy The Political Machine from politicalmachine.com and
> install/download it from Stardock Central.
again, if the game has single-player mode the only thing i ask for is it
to be also available in physical medium like a cd or dvd, and you don't
need to "ask permission" to use it and patches freely available in file
format and also freely distributed
> Once it's on your machine, you can use the built in features to back it up
> to CD and put onto other machines (non-net connected ones for instance so
> you can, for example, play Galactic Civilizations on your laptop on the
> plane).
i don't like to make my own home made cd, i prefer much better to buy
a manufactured cd
its not only cause you waste time and money having a recorder and needing
the blank media but its also cause MANUFACTURED cd are much more reliable
than HOME-MADE cds
bottom line: i'm a big fan of buying a PHYSICAL version of the game with
a good case, appealing cover, well done manual, nice quick reference card
and a cd with a fancy print-out
game publishers should not forget many gamer like to "collect" games
almost as much as they like playing then
> The system *seems* to work very well but we've only got ~300,000 users using
> Stardock Central whereas Steam no doubt has a few million.
i hope you will get much more costumers in the future
i would be one of them if you released action oriented fps and always
sold then in a physical medium version being it cd or dvd
as for steam having millions... i don't believe it and then you must not
forget... the bigger the clime the harder the fall... right?
i really hope they fall hard!!!!
> I bought Half-Life 2 via Steam. It downloaded fine. Works great. I even
> copied it to another machine here and it works fine there too. No CDs
it all seems fine in YOUR PC but what about all the other issues? what
about all the other gamers around the world?
that's really the problem with people which defend steam is because they
personally didn't have major issues yet they disregard anyone who has
valid complaints about it
now also let me give you links to two posts made by a fellow gamer and
poster in this group, his name is Spalls Hurgenson and he wrote in a
brilliant way the many implication steam means now and in the future
i would highly recommend you reading it
http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action/messages/696477.html
http://www.talkaboutcomputing.com/group/comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.action/messages/696967.html
> involved. So am I missing something here? Steam seems to work pretty well.
not having cds in one of the problems, where is your backup? you cannot
spend 50 or more in software and not have backups!
and how about gamers without internet access?
how about gamers with slow internet access?
how about gamers with pay by the minute internet access?
how about the cd/dvd version of hl2 sold in retail stores requiring net
access to activate and the cover doesn't warn you about it, which only
proves valve is trying to hide steam from costumers
how about the cd/dvd available in store being a lie and should instead
be called "steam for gamers without broadband"
what about you not having control as to what version you can run? like
for example some newer version introduce problems with specific hardware
making the older version best suited for your specific hardware but you
can use it cause valve make you ALWAYS run the latest version
how about valve wanting to end 2nd hand market in pc games?
how about valve talking away every choice possible making us USE steam
to buy, install and play games, i call it wanting a monopoly
how about valve's plan to end selling games in physical medium?
how about what will valve do in the future with steam giving them the
immense power that technology conceals????
lots and lots of questions when it comes to steam!
lots of question and no answers cause valve has a secret plan and it will
be one with a very bad ending for us pc gamers
> I understand the problem where people bought HL2 at the store and that first
> day was problematic. Stardock Central doesn't have that level of validation
> of the CD version but that doesn't seem like a problem inherent to Steam but
> rather a single bad incident one
> suspects.
>
> So what I want to know is why is there all this angst about Steam and what
> do we need to do to avoid that with Stardock Central? Or have we already
don't fear electronic distribution!
the problem is not with electronic distribution!
the problem is valve talking away the choice and forcing things upon
gamers without them wanting!
don't force electronic distribution on pc gamers but instead let us
choose!
let gamers who want to buy via electronic distribution do it and also
let gamers who want the traditional physical medium way buy it too
the problem is ONLY steam related!
valve is taking us freedom to choose and deciding for ourselves!
they are forcing us to do their way!
its extremely wrong!!!!
there is no reason why electronic distribution and traditional one can
not coexist
you don't need to kill traditional distribution to introduce electronic
distribution, but its exactly what valve is doing with steam!!!
so please don't fear introducing electronic distribution in games just
cause of anti-steam, cause anti-steam is not anti-electronic distribution
anti-steam is all about valve neglecting gamers, forcing gamer, and taking
choice from gamers and acting like a tyrannical ruthless dictator
> done something different in Stardock Central that isn't raising these
> concerns? Because in March Galactic Civilizations II goes into beta
> (distributed via Stardock Central) and the last thing we want are people mad
> at us.
>
> Brad
no publisher should use valve's example
valve's is the worse example for a publisher
they are doing it all wrong
they are hiding information
they are neglecting gamers
so i would think the last thing any publisher wants in its name mixed
up with valve or steam
so inform! and let everyone know your way of selling installing and
playing games is completely different from steam and has nothing to
do with there wrong doing
information is very important and i think any publisher must fully
inform its costumers, something valve is not doing
so any publisher which doesn't want to be mixed up with steam cause
steam has already a very BAD image among pc gamers is letting all
pc game costumers know:
.. their game are not like steam based ones and single-player mode will
never ever require internet access, so gamers with no net can always
play and not be neglected
.. their game are not like steam based ones and patches will be freely
available in file format and no activation or even internet access
is required cause they can be easily copied and distributed like
for example in cd magazines or from a friend
.. their games are not like steam based ones which require an humiliating
"ask for permission" online activation, and every gamer which buys the
physical medium version in cd/dvd will have a self-contained product
which can be fully used forever as long as he keeps it
.. their games are not like steam based ones and even with the expansion
of electronic distribution their games will always be available in a
physical medium version being it cd or dvd for those who want
the damage is already done and we no longer trust valve
so please don't do the same mistakes they have
good luck and best of wishes to your business!
--
post made in a steam-free computer
i said "NO" to valve and steam
please sign petition "Say NO! to Steam!" available at:
http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html
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