Study Finds Macs Cost 2X Windows PCs

[Claimintru]

Even though most consumers buy their computers from retail outlets, some of the best price comparisons are found from "build it yourself--kind of" vendors like Cyberpower, etc. Can get higher performing parts at a lower markup than you would from any retail store. Mostly because retail pc's are built to be average at best and any deviation from that = extra work for them.

But comparing to a vendor that lets you individually customize parts (Dell doesn't count because of them doubling prices on everything) Will really make the gap evident.

 

[tuannguyen]

[citation][nom]JTWrenn[/nom]You know I just don't think you get the point when you are looking at pc's to match the hardware. You can't just check Dell....that is silly. I mean did you even look at HP, or Gateway, or well anywhere? Did you look at the HP xw8600? A system with almost the same hardware for $2369?If you really want to do a comparison of Macs to PCs, you need to take at least 3 prices of similar hardware, and get as close as you can, even if you need to add to the Mac system. You almost have to add the warranty because all real workstations come with a 3 year warranty.Go take 3 samples of each category you are comparing and average them. You just need one from Mac because well, they are not a category of computer they are a manufacturer. But if you don't pull from at least 3 manufacturers on the pc side your numbers don't mean a thing.So far you have only argued about how a Mac stacks up against a Dell. Just in case you didn't know....Dell is not the only PC maker. I know..strange huh?[/citation]

[citation][nom]JTWrenn[/nom]You know I just don't think you get the point when you are looking at pc's to match the hardware. You can't just check Dell....that is silly. I mean did you even look at HP, or Gateway, or well anywhere? Did you look at the HP xw8600? A system with almost the same hardware for $2369?If you really want to do a comparison of Macs to PCs, you need to take at least 3 prices of similar hardware, and get as close as you can, even if you need to add to the Mac system. You almost have to add the warranty because all real workstations come with a 3 year warranty.Go take 3 samples of each category you are comparing and average them. You just need one from Mac because well, they are not a category of computer they are a manufacturer. But if you don't pull from at least 3 manufacturers on the pc side your numbers don't mean a thing.So far you have only argued about how a Mac stacks up against a Dell. Just in case you didn't know....Dell is not the only PC maker. I know..strange huh?[/citation]

I absolutely agree, just not much time today to do a grand follow up with more in depth digging and research. I wanted to do a quick 1 pager follow up concerning the over priced complaint. So I only really had time to look at Dell.

However, since Dell and others like it compete in similar spaces, I would not be surprised if the outcome of other manufacturers presented the same picture, that: Apple is getting mopped up in these categories for desktops:

- Same or better hardware for less
- Apple has no enthusiast or gaming options
- Even in mid-range options, Apple has none (so far)
- In low cost areas, Apple has some offerings but stab themselves in the foot by locking down the ability to upgrade either the hardware or the display (i'd never buy an iMac for this reason. A display is a critical investment area that can and most often times outlasts the life of the computer its attached to)
- Apple saying it's serious about gaming, but none of its hardware configurations indicate so (that's why I still play games on my PC)

Apple may be cheaper at times in some areas, but from the looks of it (I looked!), it's really getting a beating in the desktop space -- arguably the biggest space of them all.

/ Tuan

 

[tuannguyen]

Er... gxsolace ? Got a comment to add in copying my comment?

 

[gxsolace]

[citation][nom]tuannguyen[/nom]Er... gxsolace ? Got a comment to add in copying my comment?[/citation]

yeah to show you are letting fools eat your dust?

 

[JTWrenn]

Final point. The whole reason Mac is overpriced is because they are the only place to get Mac OS X on your hardware legally. Only looking at Dell completely negates the primary strength in the pricing of PCs...competition.

You should take a week, put something in depth together and then come back. Also, you realize you were primarily going against a NPD research article right? You went after a research paper with one day of research? Bad move. I know it was knee jerk to the flack you got yesterday, but why even bring up the NPD info then?

You should take a step back, think about it, and then come back with solid info properly researched. That is the cornerstone of Tomshardware.com.

 

[tuannguyen]

[citation][nom]gxsolace[/nom]yeah to show you are letting fools eat your dust?[/citation]

What?

 

[waffle911]

Hopefully 10.6 "Snow Leopard", which is supposed to make it ridiculously easy to develop software for the Mac, will help more hardware companies make drivers that are compatible with Mac. I wish.

That said, the study does neglect the statistic that within the Mac price range, the majority of systems sold are Macs. More people who are willing to spend more money on a new computer are also willing to forgo extra performance for the "Mac experience." For people who don't need more performance, that might seem like a fair trade-off.

The whole "average price" thing is a real flaw as well, as the models that bring the average to $500 or whatever (especially the laptops) don't directly compete with Apple systems performance-wise. You gotta spend at least $800 to get something competitive, maybe even $700.

So at most "twice as expensive" comes with at least 1.5X the performance/feature set.

That said, I will be looking to buy a MacBook Pro for school next year, but I also plan on building a dedicated gaming rig. Vista's not so bad really, but I'd still rather have OSX for everyday computing. If nothing else I can still sell the MacBook Pro later on down the road and still make some money back from it.

 

[sandmanwn]

[citation][nom]tuannguyen[/nom]However, since Dell and others like it compete in similar spaces, I would not be surprised if the outcome of other manufacturers presented the same picture, that: Apple is getting mopped up in these categories for desktops:[/citation]
You might be surprised once you look. HP didn't come from a distant 2nd to overtake Dell just by chance. HP has always had a stronghold in the Server and Workstation market. Dell's traditional market is laptops and desktops and monitors. I think you will realize soon that because there are so many PC manufacturers that they absolutely must find niche markets in order to survive the tough competition.

One other thing you'll figure out is that there are 3rd parties in markets such as workstations and servers that are much better options than Manufacturer direct. Places like CDW which specialize in HP products and use their clout and buying power to get much better deals with OEM's.

The PC market can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be. Its up to you to see just how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. Blue pill or Red pill...

Excellent turn around article BTW. Its good you stuck with it. Look forward to reading your articles.

 

[gr8scott88]

I'm not going to lie, i laughed when i saw this heading toms hardware just days after running "the mac price misconception." The author probably just borrowed their research off the comments from the other article, i mean you don;t have to look far to realize that while OS X may be a superior operating system for some users, there is no price comparison on the hardware level.

 

[Guest]

Nice follow up Tuan, seems to reflect more truth with regards to Mac vs. PC pricing, although, yes I would still like to see a REAL apples to apples comparison... i.e. build a similar PERFORMANCE pc at the lowest price and then see how price gaps stretch then... Respect to you though for the follow up!

 

[Zorak]

Ahahah this is golden. Not even a day ago they have the whole "Pricing missconception" article and now we have this refuting it

 

[JTWrenn]

You know I don't know if he is right or not and I am not really in the mood to go research it, but he did not do the ground work before writing this. He even admitted to checking just Dell. Who knows maybe he is right and the average is still higher than Macs, but he needs to look around before saying it.

He should also follow the same way they do housing appraisals. Go above, and below the mac system by a step or two from a few different manufacturers.

Basic idea of any point you are trying to make, get more information than is necessary so when you make the point, people won't call you a retard.

 

[JimmyJimmington]

How about issuing a retraction and an apology for your incorrect reporting about the 8700M having shared memory?
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p98/JimmyJimmington/TUANSWRONG.jpg

Or how about going back and comparing laptops and not using dell and voodoo or at least using the correct dell for comparison?

 

[bardia]

Many of them wanted me dead anyway.

Indeed some went over the top. I myself was probably more critical than I needed to be, although I still disagree with you.

However, understand that some of the frustration from the regulars isn't just backlash because we disagree with you (as the vast majority of us do), but disagreement fueled with frustration over the declining quality of our beloved THG is a dangerous combination.

I mean seriously... the CPU chart hasn't been updated since sometime mid-late '07. This is August '08! In dog years and computer years, that's like a decade right?

 

[azides]

"Adding a E207WFP 20-inch for $234 brings the Inspiron 518’s price up to $983" from article ....

Actually adding this monitor adds $60 ... I only know because I am shopping! (I intend to self build, but was curious)

 

[tuannguyen]

[citation][nom]bardia[/nom]Indeed some went over the top. I myself was probably more critical than I needed to be, although I still disagree with you.However, understand that some of the frustration from the regulars isn't just backlash because we disagree with you (as the vast majority of us do), but disagreement fueled with frustration over the declining quality of our beloved THG is a dangerous combination.I mean seriously... the CPU chart hasn't been updated since sometime mid-late '07. This is August '08! In dog years and computer years, that's like a decade right?[/citation]

Understood. There's definitely concern there. I assure you that there is work being done to update all the charts. We're moving to a new charting system that's considerably more powerful than the one in use, where when you click on a bar related to a specific device, it'll link you to the article associated with that device.

@ALL: In general, I am definitely stepping up here publicly to say sorry for the mess. Everyone's learning I think. I read through all the comments (crazy!) and learned a thing or two at the very least, myself.

I'll follow up with a deeper, more balanced look at the different platforms, which will come up soon. We're attempting to get in the latest Apple units, requesting similar systems from system builders, and then building our own. We'll run some concrete benchmarks using the latest games as well as system tests to show raw numbers and let the benchmarks do the talking (no, really! )

Then we'll try to build a standard PC with matching hardware and install Leopard on it, and see which delivers better numbers for the best value.

I think that should help reshape things.

/ Tuan

 

[Guest]

Then we'll try to build a standard PC with matching hardware and install Leopard on it

Won't you have the Apple police knocking at your door, shoving their EULA in your face?

I also thought there was some way in which apple locked its OS to its machines by means of a hardware code... i.e. you would require some sort of emulation to get it running on stock standard PC hardware. I vaguely remember reading about this, maybe I'm wrong...

 

[falchard]

2 letters, HP. Thats why the prices for PC are so low. There are also other venders who sell PCs that low. Tigersdirect, and buypowerPC(even though they are shit).

 

[bardia]

Tuan all that sounds awesome and fun. Building a hackintosh has been on my to do list anyway... I finished off my mini-itx bug last fall.

 

[russki]

Tuan, way to respond in the post above, but you do understand the bewilderment that two seemingly contradicting articles posted over the course of what, 3 or 4 days, inspires. Particularly when they are authored by the same person. Although am I right that this latter one is pretty much the regurgitation of DailyTech, which was a regurgitation of Wilcox, if I'm not mistaken...

 

[azides]

About the charts - that sounds great! I have noticed the lack of the latest Core 2 Quads!

About the pricing comparison - you only need one representative system at each Mac price point, choosing Dell would IMHO be fine. Prices fluctuate daily and perhaps HP is 10% cheaper one day and 10% more the next.

A home-build would also be good as you suggest, but I would refrain from using enthusiast parts ... i.e. use a cheap-ass motherboard as I bet the Mac's board is not geared for the enthusiast, use cheap memory, I don't think the Mac has Reaper in it, though I could be wrong .

 

[tuannguyen]

[citation][nom]russki[/nom]Tuan, way to respond in the post above, but you do understand the bewilderment that two seemingly contradicting articles posted over the course of what, 3 or 4 days, inspires. Particularly when they are authored by the same person. Although am I right that this latter one is pretty much the regurgitation of DailyTech, which was a regurgitation of Wilcox, if I'm not mistaken...[/citation]

Actually no, the original article about the study is on eWeek. DailyTech was not my source (I co-founded DailyTech btw.)

About it the article being contradictory, it's not really 100-percent contradictory when you closely examine what I've said. I really am smashing Apple here for the lack of options, which is what I've mentioned. The angle in the original articles is no good, so I'm working on a much more in depth look like I mentioned in an earlier comment. It'll have some raw numbers that'll speak for themselves.

/ Tuan

 

[royalcrown]

Another bull shit article where they use the term pc and compare a cpl lousy laptops. The cost of an imac was only 300 more than a similar gateway. The cost of a mac pro quad and a similar windows pc was about a grand, and A mac Pro vs a CLONE was pretty close. So this is another bullshit article...

I want to personally debate with rob wright or the ed on this...

 

[royalcrown]

and I meant a mac pro with the 2 xeons, not the single quad when i said close, and the 4 drives yadda yadda.

 

[mdkbob]

The only difference between this article and the last one is: this one is based on research by NPD and the other one is... well based on little research by Tuan.
I appreciate you being active in responding to questions but next time do a little more research before publishing an article. Maybe then you won't be contradicted so soon.
I really hope as bardia mentioned THG can reverse its trend of declining article quality.