Nicely done again. A good alternate title might be "How to improve the SBM $500 build by spending a little more". It seems no matter how you review it folks always are proposing more. A E7300 on a P45 MB with a great case, PSU, and the 4850 represents a great job spending a little bit more for the budget $500 gaming desktop.
- Status
[citation][nom]caamsa[/nom]For us AMD "fanboys" click the link and read. http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=3486[/citation]
I actually just came from anandtech. good article. And just because we want to see an AMD smb doesnt make us fan boys...we just want to see what the AMD can do in that price range. I actually prefer Intel anyways
I actually just came from anandtech. good article. And just because we want to see an AMD smb doesnt make us fan boys...we just want to see what the AMD can do in that price range. I actually prefer Intel anyways
skora
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Great job THG for trying the E7300. Since Dec and Nov are virtually identical, it is a nice CPU vs CPU comparision. The only thing that would have made it perfect would have been testing the E7300 system with the 4850 clocked the same as Nov. I had to make a decision on which CPU to buy today and couldn't wait for day 4 comparisions. Since the FPS on games were very close with the E7300 edging out the E5200 system, I'm guessing the difference was in the GPU clocks.
FOR EVERYONE DOING A BUILD NOW:
2 FREE GAMES with the Intel CPUs. https://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Special/Intel_120908_FreeGames.jsp?intpromo=Intel_120908_FreeGames_Main
As for the AMD/Intel debate, there was a real opportunity missed in NOV. Since only 2 systems were built, the third should have been an AMD budget system. If nothing more than to silence the badgering about there not being an AMD system. Besides, maybe someone has a decent Nvida GPU and can't spring for a 750i mobo.
FOR EVERYONE DOING A BUILD NOW:
2 FREE GAMES with the Intel CPUs. https://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Special/Intel_120908_FreeGames.jsp?intpromo=Intel_120908_FreeGames_Main
As for the AMD/Intel debate, there was a real opportunity missed in NOV. Since only 2 systems were built, the third should have been an AMD budget system. If nothing more than to silence the badgering about there not being an AMD system. Besides, maybe someone has a decent Nvida GPU and can't spring for a 750i mobo.
THG should create a public WishList on NewEgg for their SBMs.
I created one for this build: SBM $625
The total price is currently $684 (not counting MIRs).
Their PSU choice is bad and is double their quoted price. The Antec True Power Trio TP3-430 430W is at $40 and gets much better ratings.
Their RAM choice is poor, since its stated voltage is 2.2V. A cheaper and better choice would be A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, which runs at 1.8V.
I created one for this build: SBM $625
The total price is currently $684 (not counting MIRs).
Their PSU choice is bad and is double their quoted price. The Antec True Power Trio TP3-430 430W is at $40 and gets much better ratings.
Their RAM choice is poor, since its stated voltage is 2.2V. A cheaper and better choice would be A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, which runs at 1.8V.
"Our maximum-detail SBM gaming settings have so far brought our single-GPU gaming PCs to their knees, so attempts were first made to fit more GPU power into this month’s build. Ideally, dual HD 4830s or 9800 GTs were the goal, but unfortunately a CrossFire- or SLI-capable motherboard, dual $115 graphics cards, and a sufficient power supply unit (PSU) did not even come close to meeting the constraints of this budget. Even a single GTX 260 or HD 4870 would have required the HDD capacity or system memory to be cut in half and would have also limited us to $30 cases. While more GPU power remained just out of reach, there were enough pricing changes to instead increase our CPU budget so we could take a look at the Intel Core 2 Duo E7300."
I don't see why they didn't put in a smaller hard drive and cheaper case. I always get a cheaper case (I have a Cool Master that I got for $50). Also you can always get another hard drive later on, so a 250-300GB would have been fine and then when you need it (and/or when you have the money) you get another hard drive and you can either 1. Get another 250-300GB and raid them or you get a bigger one and clone the smaller drive to the bigger one (then you can easily dualboot with another OS if you like).
I don't see why they didn't put in a smaller hard drive and cheaper case. I always get a cheaper case (I have a Cool Master that I got for $50). Also you can always get another hard drive later on, so a 250-300GB would have been fine and then when you need it (and/or when you have the money) you get another hard drive and you can either 1. Get another 250-300GB and raid them or you get a bigger one and clone the smaller drive to the bigger one (then you can easily dualboot with another OS if you like).
thomasxstewart
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Shadow703793
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Whay oh why do you still use the Freezer Pro??? Should have gotten a XIGMATEK. The Freezer isn't in the running any more imo, unless budget is very strict.
Shadow703793
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[citation][nom]DXrick[/nom] A cheaper and better choice would be A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, which runs at 1.8V.[/citation]
Meh, better yet, get the new GSkill PI.
Meh, better yet, get the new GSkill PI.
lunyone
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@DXrick, your build price doesn't include the S/H. The build is ~$715 - $55 MIR's = $660 with S/H. that is still $35 over the $625 build budget.
A more logical parts selection would've been the AMD 6000+ (3.1 gHz) combo with the Antec Earthwatts 430w PSU (30A on the 12v rails). It's going for $96 shipped!!
2nd combo from the top of the page!
Add a 790gx based mobo for $110 shipped and your total drops down to $579 - $40 MIR's = $539!! Now that is more like the $500 build that should be done, instead were catering to the higher prices of the Intel chips (e7200 and up). I'd rather have put the e5200, like last months build or put in the AMD 6000+ in. I'm not knocking on your build much, but that is what I'd change.
I'd also consider getting the Antec 300 at Buy.com for about $15 less than Newegg is offering. That would drop the price down to $525!! Even the Powercolor 4850 is about $9 less, so you could even pinch some more $ off to get closer to the elusive $500 mark that was the original idea to begin with. If your looking for a $500 build, AMD is hard to beat. Yes the Intel build will be better than the AMD build, but that is only if you OC it. An AMD 3.1 gHz CPU and a Intel 2.5 gHz CPU should be about the same performance wise. Now the benefit of getting bang for the buck is to OC the Intel/AMD CPU's. This si where Intel smokes AMD! I'm not saying that Intel is the best or AMD is the best, it just depends on what you do. If you don't do ANY OC'ing, than AMD is hard to beat on the Low to Mid-range end of the market!
A more logical parts selection would've been the AMD 6000+ (3.1 gHz) combo with the Antec Earthwatts 430w PSU (30A on the 12v rails). It's going for $96 shipped!!
2nd combo from the top of the page!
Add a 790gx based mobo for $110 shipped and your total drops down to $579 - $40 MIR's = $539!! Now that is more like the $500 build that should be done, instead were catering to the higher prices of the Intel chips (e7200 and up). I'd rather have put the e5200, like last months build or put in the AMD 6000+ in. I'm not knocking on your build much, but that is what I'd change.
I'd also consider getting the Antec 300 at Buy.com for about $15 less than Newegg is offering. That would drop the price down to $525!! Even the Powercolor 4850 is about $9 less, so you could even pinch some more $ off to get closer to the elusive $500 mark that was the original idea to begin with. If your looking for a $500 build, AMD is hard to beat. Yes the Intel build will be better than the AMD build, but that is only if you OC it. An AMD 3.1 gHz CPU and a Intel 2.5 gHz CPU should be about the same performance wise. Now the benefit of getting bang for the buck is to OC the Intel/AMD CPU's. This si where Intel smokes AMD! I'm not saying that Intel is the best or AMD is the best, it just depends on what you do. If you don't do ANY OC'ing, than AMD is hard to beat on the Low to Mid-range end of the market!
pauldh
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[citation][nom]bounty[/nom]If you guys had stability problems at 3.6 and 3.8 (at almost 1.5v) and had programs wipe things out to the point that you had to re-install the OS I'm guessing you benched at a non-stable OC (long term). I think you need a do-over at 3.5 otherwise it's not helpful. We wouldn't run our systems that unstable, and the other sbm's you built are/were stable. You could give the 7300 another shake next month to check if you just had an unlucky CPU, or the 5200 to see if it was just lucky etc. I just built a 5200 + GA-EP43-DS3L for a friend that went to 3.6 on stock cooling and 1.3625v easily.[/citation]
Hello bounty; Just to clarify... Considering the week of stability and performance testing, issues were quite rare and minor. It still seemed valuable added info for the readers to mention any issues that arose. The error in Vantage could have been hardware related, but also could have been software related. The problems could not be repeated in any other ap or diagnostic. Also, I'd say one single cold boot issue is hardly reason to think a torture tested setting is not stable. As mentioned, yes, Vcore was higher than desired but again temps were fine. 3.6GHz and 1.4V was considered, but would have been quite the disappointment vs last month.
I shouldn't say the E7300 won't return, and you are right if we get one with lower VID it may do much better. But it will have to be priced a bit better vs the E5200. $28 at the time of submitting components wouldn't have been too bad. But if down the road the CPU price difference could put a GTX 260 or HD 4870 into the system, you won't see the money spent on the E7300.
Hello bounty; Just to clarify... Considering the week of stability and performance testing, issues were quite rare and minor. It still seemed valuable added info for the readers to mention any issues that arose. The error in Vantage could have been hardware related, but also could have been software related. The problems could not be repeated in any other ap or diagnostic. Also, I'd say one single cold boot issue is hardly reason to think a torture tested setting is not stable. As mentioned, yes, Vcore was higher than desired but again temps were fine. 3.6GHz and 1.4V was considered, but would have been quite the disappointment vs last month.
I shouldn't say the E7300 won't return, and you are right if we get one with lower VID it may do much better. But it will have to be priced a bit better vs the E5200. $28 at the time of submitting components wouldn't have been too bad. But if down the road the CPU price difference could put a GTX 260 or HD 4870 into the system, you won't see the money spent on the E7300.
Tindytim
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[citation][nom]Farrwalker[/nom]System still needs:OS (about $90 to $100)monitor (about $120 to $140 for a 19" LCD)Keyboard ($10)mouse ($6 to $20)These four items could range from about $230 to $270 if you got items from the low end of the price range.[/citation]
All of those things will be priced differently based on preference. Not to mention if you've ever had a computer, you'll already have all of those things.
All of those things will be priced differently based on preference. Not to mention if you've ever had a computer, you'll already have all of those things.
pauldh
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[citation][nom]Shadow703793[/nom]Whay oh why do you still use the Freezer Pro??? Should have gotten a XIGMATEK. The Freezer isn't in the running any more imo, unless budget is very strict.[/citation]
The Xigmatek(with bracket) for $42 performed well in the $1250 build last month, but there really wasn't any room in this budget. Keep in mind, (as it turned out) the Freezer 7 pro did not hold this system back at all. The problem was at 3.8GHz we needed too much VCore for the liking. Although temps were fine, we were already pushing the point of diminishing returns. If we had needed more cooling, the two case fans could have still be turned up to high speed(ran both at medium again).
The Xigmatek(with bracket) for $42 performed well in the $1250 build last month, but there really wasn't any room in this budget. Keep in mind, (as it turned out) the Freezer 7 pro did not hold this system back at all. The problem was at 3.8GHz we needed too much VCore for the liking. Although temps were fine, we were already pushing the point of diminishing returns. If we had needed more cooling, the two case fans could have still be turned up to high speed(ran both at medium again).
cleeve
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[citation][nom]caamsa[/nom]For us AMD "fanboys" click the link and read. http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=3486[/citation]
What good are their recommendations without performance testing? We don't recommand the AMDs because the performance isn't there, we're not going to pander to brand loyalty if it delivers crappy performance.
The system builder marathon includes overclocking people; we all know current AMD offerings do poorly when overclocked compared to the Core 2s. They just don't go high enough. Maybe the Phenom 2's will change that, maybe we have to look harder at the new Athlons based on the Phenom. But I still haven't seen anything to show me they're compelling overclockers vs. Intel.
Stock speeds, that's another story. But come on, overclocking? Honestly. Do we need to go there?
What good are their recommendations without performance testing? We don't recommand the AMDs because the performance isn't there, we're not going to pander to brand loyalty if it delivers crappy performance.
The system builder marathon includes overclocking people; we all know current AMD offerings do poorly when overclocked compared to the Core 2s. They just don't go high enough. Maybe the Phenom 2's will change that, maybe we have to look harder at the new Athlons based on the Phenom. But I still haven't seen anything to show me they're compelling overclockers vs. Intel.
Stock speeds, that's another story. But come on, overclocking? Honestly. Do we need to go there?
pauldh
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[citation][nom]DXrick[/nom]THG should create a public WishList on NewEgg for their SBMs.I created one for this build: SBM $625The total price is currently $684 (not counting MIRs). Their PSU choice is bad and is double their quoted price. The Antec True Power Trio TP3-430 430W is at $40 and gets much better ratings.Their RAM choice is poor, since its stated voltage is 2.2V. A cheaper and better choice would be A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800, which runs at 1.8V.[/citation]
As we always mention, prices will fluctuate. Matter of fact, they keep changing overnight on us between the three systems' components being finalized late in the day, and the complete order being placed the next day. Even your selections may be lower/higher (or in/out of stock) by tomorrow...price out a system and then check your cart next day to track the changes in pricing and availability.
The Neo 430W was $20 cheaper than the TP3 430W on order day. Compare the specs of the two and see how similar they are apart from the modular cables. At today's prices, the TP3 is the better value.
The memory performed extremely well in the linked Tom's review and was also among the cheapest in-stock 4-4-4-12 PC6400 at the time.
As we always mention, prices will fluctuate. Matter of fact, they keep changing overnight on us between the three systems' components being finalized late in the day, and the complete order being placed the next day. Even your selections may be lower/higher (or in/out of stock) by tomorrow...price out a system and then check your cart next day to track the changes in pricing and availability.
The Neo 430W was $20 cheaper than the TP3 430W on order day. Compare the specs of the two and see how similar they are apart from the modular cables. At today's prices, the TP3 is the better value.
The memory performed extremely well in the linked Tom's review and was also among the cheapest in-stock 4-4-4-12 PC6400 at the time.
pauldh
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[citation][nom]skora[/nom]Great job THG for trying the E7300. Since Dec and Nov are virtually identical, it is a nice CPU vs CPU comparision. The only thing that would have made it perfect would have been testing the E7300 system with the 4850 clocked the same as Nov. I had to make a decision on which CPU to buy today and couldn't wait for day 4 comparisions. Since the FPS on games were very close with the E7300 edging out the E5200 system, I'm guessing the difference was in the GPU clocks. FOR EVERYONE DOING A BUILD NOW:2 FREE GAMES with the Intel CPUs. https://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/Spec [...] Games_MainAs for the AMD/Intel debate, there was a real opportunity missed in NOV. Since only 2 systems were built, the third should have been an AMD budget system. If nothing more than to silence the badgering about there not being an AMD system. Besides, maybe someone has a decent Nvida GPU and can't spring for a 750i mobo.[/citation]
Impossible to say based on one sample of each, but max overclocked it doesn't look like the E7300 offers much over the E5200. It will depend on the binning and VID of the chip you receive. The gaming difference seen would be the higher GPU clocks as you stated. An equal comparison of GPU clocks would have been useful, but since the system was so similar with the same video card model, we didn't want to miss the opportunity to see how much higher this Sapphire could go.
Cleeve just did a nice job of explaining the AMD/Intel issue. AMD CPU options have been discussed. But the selected components for SBMs are all about the best overclocked performance for the three budgets, regardless of brand.
Impossible to say based on one sample of each, but max overclocked it doesn't look like the E7300 offers much over the E5200. It will depend on the binning and VID of the chip you receive. The gaming difference seen would be the higher GPU clocks as you stated. An equal comparison of GPU clocks would have been useful, but since the system was so similar with the same video card model, we didn't want to miss the opportunity to see how much higher this Sapphire could go.
Cleeve just did a nice job of explaining the AMD/Intel issue. AMD CPU options have been discussed. But the selected components for SBMs are all about the best overclocked performance for the three budgets, regardless of brand.
I think the arguement here to feature an AMD system isn't solely due to fan boy-ism. Personal I still roll with a P4 (will be upgrading soon), but my girlfriend has a Compaq laptop with an AMD chip. The call for a AMD system is more for performance/value/compare feature. At stock speeds if you compared the e7300 .vs the 8750 BE (close price point), the 8750 would take the lead in a number of benchies (even in games would probably be compete). I think this intrigues most people. Yes the SBM articles are aimed at the Overclockers and value oriented, but you seem to be more so pandering to the overclockers more so than the value portion. There is an audience of people would love to see what the comparison would be between the AMD system and an Intel system, overclocked and at stock speeds. This would be more encompassing of a value oriented audience who some may not be into overclocking, but want the best they could get on a budget. There are some (more then probably you would think) who avoid OCing because it voids a warranty and a screw up would cost big (hence the budget minded). Personally I am a novice to overclocking and will be doing so on my system. The arguement over which chip overclocks better is null and void, intel hands down. Maybe this should be in a seperate article somewhere since SBM articles are for OCers, but the AMD system comparison alone would be huge I think in these articles. If only to silence the critics. But good work guys, love these articles (have some good ideas about which parts I should get i.e. 4830).
After the last smb with the E5200 I picked up one and was pretty sad with my results. The chip failed prime at 9hrs at 3.45ghz on 1.45v. Not stable enough for me wouldn't even boot above 3.52. Spent a week trying everything ahhh oh well win some loose some. Just goes to show overclocking never sure thing.
I still think the E5200 is the better value for ocing until E8X00 series level for this build. I think you would have been better off spending the extra 40 bucks on an 4870 but i understand needing to spend more on slightly better psu then not having enough in the budget. plus there probably have been some price drops in the past couple weeks.
I really appreciate the info. And showing an AMD system would be nice to see even if it doesn't quite hold up (at least it might ward off the favoritism coments). Look forward to your i7 build.
I still think the E5200 is the better value for ocing until E8X00 series level for this build. I think you would have been better off spending the extra 40 bucks on an 4870 but i understand needing to spend more on slightly better psu then not having enough in the budget. plus there probably have been some price drops in the past couple weeks.
I really appreciate the info. And showing an AMD system would be nice to see even if it doesn't quite hold up (at least it might ward off the favoritism coments). Look forward to your i7 build.
caamsa
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Cleeve, I think you and paul do a great job on these articles and I understand your premise. It just gets a little discouraging to see these "Intel System Builder Marathons" month after month. I had to go back to March to find an AMD build in the builder guide when the prices of those chips were much higher. Now the AMD cpu's have dropped a lot and I imagine they must compete on some level overclocked or not.
I can only hope that the Phenom II will bring some life back into AMD.
If not then my next build will probably be an i7 or maybe an i5 when they come out.
I can only hope that the Phenom II will bring some life back into AMD.
If not then my next build will probably be an i7 or maybe an i5 when they come out.
zodiacfml
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toms had been there where SBM builds are not overclocked but us readers pointed out that true value/enthusiast is at good overclocking systems.
regarding amd, their processors proved to be the cheapest if budget is more important than price/performance, i myself have a x2 5000 BE this year. now, i just find the pentium dual core E5200 irresistible which is at a price of an AMD that overclocks and performs better.
overclocking is also a big reward least risk activity, educational too. i have overclocked pentium mmx, pentium II, athlon xp, and now athlon x2. none have trouble, all processors and memory still works. what died is the motherboard of my pentium mmx caused by aged and ordinary capacitors.
regarding amd, their processors proved to be the cheapest if budget is more important than price/performance, i myself have a x2 5000 BE this year. now, i just find the pentium dual core E5200 irresistible which is at a price of an AMD that overclocks and performs better.
overclocking is also a big reward least risk activity, educational too. i have overclocked pentium mmx, pentium II, athlon xp, and now athlon x2. none have trouble, all processors and memory still works. what died is the motherboard of my pentium mmx caused by aged and ordinary capacitors.
[citation][nom]pauldh[/nom]As we always mention, prices will fluctuate. Matter of fact, they keep changing overnight on us between the three systems' components being finalized late in the day, and the complete order being placed the next day. Even your selections may be lower/higher (or in/out of stock) by tomorrow...price out a system and then check your cart next day to track the changes in pricing and availability. The Neo 430W was $20 cheaper than the TP3 430W on order day. Compare the specs of the two and see how similar they are apart from the modular cables. At today's prices, the TP3 is the better value.The memory performed extremely well in the linked Tom's review and was also among the cheapest in-stock 4-4-4-12 PC6400 at the time.[/citation]
Yup. That is why I suggested you create a WishList and quoted the current price. It pays (a lot) to watch for deals on NewEgg for the parts you want.
Yup. That is why I suggested you create a WishList and quoted the current price. It pays (a lot) to watch for deals on NewEgg for the parts you want.
RJ
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[citation][nom]Roland00[/nom]I work at frys in the computer department, because of this I weekly check out the ads this is the stuff that are good deals in the computer/components departmentsPrices are good till tommorrow evening (tuesday) at 9 o clock when the store closes. Things are in bold are better deals than listed above.Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E7300 & ECS GF7050VT-M Motherboard $99.99Patriot 4GB DDR2 PC6400 Dual Memory $49.99 with a 20 dollar rebateAntec Three Hundred Ultimate Gamer Case $34.99Antec Earthwatts 500W Power Supply $49.99Seagate 1.5TB Serial ATA/300 Hard Drive $129.99 Also good dealscrucial 4GB DDR2 PC8500 Dual Memory $47.99 $35.99 after rebatecrucial 2GB DDR2 PC6400 Dual Memory $19.99I am just mad that I didn't get the e8500 + crappy motherboard for 134.99 that they had last week.note for 99 dollars this is the e7300 not the e7200 the new chip with the higher multipler and is more likely to be a higher bin sort.[/citation]
Thanks for that heads-up on the E7300. $64 for a $120 processor is quite a steal. I'm a little disappointed in the ECS board though. That only has a 10/100 LAN and SINGLE CHANNEL MEMORY?!? I haven't had a single channel setup since AMD's 754! I've got it up and running Ubuntu 8.10 64 bit with 4 gigs of Patriot memory, also on sale at Fry's. I'll probably get a better mobo after a while.... I think it's going to be a real "parking brake" for what the E7300 can do. Thanks again.
Thanks for that heads-up on the E7300. $64 for a $120 processor is quite a steal. I'm a little disappointed in the ECS board though. That only has a 10/100 LAN and SINGLE CHANNEL MEMORY?!? I haven't had a single channel setup since AMD's 754! I've got it up and running Ubuntu 8.10 64 bit with 4 gigs of Patriot memory, also on sale at Fry's. I'll probably get a better mobo after a while.... I think it's going to be a real "parking brake" for what the E7300 can do. Thanks again.
[citation][nom]Cleeve[/nom]What good are their recommendations without performance testing? We don't recommand the AMDs because the performance isn't there, we're not going to pander to brand loyalty if it delivers crappy performance.The system builder marathon includes overclocking people; we all know current AMD offerings do poorly when overclocked compared to the Core 2s. They just don't go high enough. Maybe the Phenom 2's will change that, maybe we have to look harder at the new Athlons based on the Phenom. But I still haven't seen anything to show me they're compelling overclockers vs. Intel. Stock speeds, that's another story. But come on, overclocking? Honestly. Do we need to go there?[/citation]
Exactly. What good are the recommendations without performance testing? You apparently haven't done any testing on AMD systems in these marathons. In fact, the only attempt by Tom's lately to overclock an AMD system appeared to be either totally inept or intentionally biased to another brand.
You do realize that the overclocking gap has closed somewhat, right? An AMD 9850 Black Edition can easily hit 3.2 Ghz on air.. and I push mine to 3.4/3.5 stable, which isn't uncommon. People typically run overclocked Q6600's at 3.2, and usually don't go much higher than 3.6 even on water. Now, these chips are virtually the same performance-wise at stock speeds. .. the only difference is that the Q6600 starts at 2.4Ghz while the 9850BE starts at 2.5 Ghz. This gives the Intel chip a slim advantage when overclocking to high levels.
But, wait.. the Intel chip is $190 and the AMD chip is $148. Comparable AMD boards are 30% to 50% cheaper than Intel's. Factor in that you don't need to buy super quality ram for a good overclock (you'll still have gobs of bandwidth) and you find that AMD truly is competitive.
Exactly. What good are the recommendations without performance testing? You apparently haven't done any testing on AMD systems in these marathons. In fact, the only attempt by Tom's lately to overclock an AMD system appeared to be either totally inept or intentionally biased to another brand.
You do realize that the overclocking gap has closed somewhat, right? An AMD 9850 Black Edition can easily hit 3.2 Ghz on air.. and I push mine to 3.4/3.5 stable, which isn't uncommon. People typically run overclocked Q6600's at 3.2, and usually don't go much higher than 3.6 even on water. Now, these chips are virtually the same performance-wise at stock speeds. .. the only difference is that the Q6600 starts at 2.4Ghz while the 9850BE starts at 2.5 Ghz. This gives the Intel chip a slim advantage when overclocking to high levels.
But, wait.. the Intel chip is $190 and the AMD chip is $148. Comparable AMD boards are 30% to 50% cheaper than Intel's. Factor in that you don't need to buy super quality ram for a good overclock (you'll still have gobs of bandwidth) and you find that AMD truly is competitive.
Personally everyone that works at Fry's loathes ECS. They are boards with very little features and can't be overclocked. Yet Fry's offers them with processors as bundles for ECS sells their boards at deep discounts and the "technically work." If you aren't going to do any overclocking they are okay....
Personally I would get an intel p45 from one of these three oems Gigabyte, ASUS, or MSI board off newegg. Watch the right sales and you can get it for $99 before mail in rebate. Also besides Fry's and Newegg, watch tigerdirect, buy.com, Microcenter, and Microcenter (another good brick and mortar store for building computers)
And if you plan on overclocking I rather get some of the crucial ballistix, patriot viper (you got traditional patriot), or corsair xps/dominator ram. 4/5 weeks we have one of those three I listed on sale.
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