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neiroatopelcc
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- Oct 3, 2006
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[citation][nom]doomtomb[/nom]You mean you didn't think to take off the side panel?[/citation]
Nobody runs without the side panel off in a work enviroment ... well mine's off now, but I test harddrives on this system.
Nobody runs without the side panel off in a work enviroment ... well mine's off now, but I test harddrives on this system.
doomtomb
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- May 12, 2009
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[citation][nom]neiroatopelcc[/nom]Nobody runs without the side panel off in a work enviroment ... well mine's off now, but I test harddrives on this system.[/citation]
These computers weren't meant for a work environment. They're supposed to be LAN PCs but my dream LAN PC wouldn't be anything like these contraptions they put together here.
These computers weren't meant for a work environment. They're supposed to be LAN PCs but my dream LAN PC wouldn't be anything like these contraptions they put together here.
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[citation][nom]DjEaZy[/nom]... dear, tom's!!! Do a AMD lineup already!!! And then compere!!! Fot the fun of it... THX!!![/citation]
No, the budgets were $2500, half of $2500 ($1250), and half of $1250 ($625). Readers requested we loosen up the budgets to find best value "near" a certain price, which is why the comparison was originally written with wording "sub-$625" and "$1250+" rather than "$600" and "$1300".
Copy editor must have desided that the terms "$1250+" and "sub-$600" were either confusing or made for bad reading, but the budgets are the same even if the restriction to stick to the budget has been loosened.
No, the budgets were $2500, half of $2500 ($1250), and half of $1250 ($625). Readers requested we loosen up the budgets to find best value "near" a certain price, which is why the comparison was originally written with wording "sub-$625" and "$1250+" rather than "$600" and "$1300".
Copy editor must have desided that the terms "$1250+" and "sub-$600" were either confusing or made for bad reading, but the budgets are the same even if the restriction to stick to the budget has been loosened.
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[citation][nom]doomtomb[/nom]You mean you didn't think to take off the side panel?[/citation]
That would be a bad move: The system has two intake fans and a mesh side panel. I don't know who gave that comment a thumbs up, but he should at least look at the pictures before jumping down that rabbit hole.
That would be a bad move: The system has two intake fans and a mesh side panel. I don't know who gave that comment a thumbs up, but he should at least look at the pictures before jumping down that rabbit hole.
neiroatopelcc
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[citation][nom]doomtomb[/nom]These computers weren't meant for a work environment. They're supposed to be LAN PCs but my dream LAN PC wouldn't be anything like these contraptions they put together here.[/citation]
well I didn't mean an enviroment for work, but rather in an enviroment where you would be working with the pc. That work can very well be a gaming tournament or similar. And nobody normal runs their pc's open at any lan events I've attended. Well one guy did, but then his watercooling system was based on a golf 3 interior cooler, a garden pump and a bucket of water. He's not normal so he doesn't count.
well I didn't mean an enviroment for work, but rather in an enviroment where you would be working with the pc. That work can very well be a gaming tournament or similar. And nobody normal runs their pc's open at any lan events I've attended. Well one guy did, but then his watercooling system was based on a golf 3 interior cooler, a garden pump and a bucket of water. He's not normal so he doesn't count.
Doesn't a 920 with d0 stepping change the picture completely?
A quick search gives me the impression that most 920/d0 goes
just fine to 4.6Ghz on air.
Just look at the "mighty mouse"
motherboard review at anandtech for example, they were
just testing the cheapest i7 motherboard available, and made
no fuss that they got 4.6Ghz.
A quick search gives me the impression that most 920/d0 goes
just fine to 4.6Ghz on air.
Just look at the "mighty mouse"
motherboard review at anandtech for example, they were
just testing the cheapest i7 motherboard available, and made
no fuss that they got 4.6Ghz.
dmv915
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- Feb 23, 2009
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Interesting articles, haven't really seen this type of format in previous system builders. It was definitely a plus to learn that pc power and cooling power supplies don't have a bottom intake fan. I was also quite surprised that the Pentium dual core didn't bottle neck on the gtx 260.
dmv915
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- Feb 23, 2009
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[citation][nom]gakkkkgg@gakcom[/nom]Doesn't a 920 with d0 stepping change the picture completely?A quick search gives me the impression that most 920/d0 goesjust fine to 4.6Ghz on air.Just look at the "mighty mouse"motherboard review at anandtech for example, they werejust testing the cheapest i7 motherboard available, and madeno fuss that they got 4.6Ghz.[/citation]
A d0 stepping wouldn't have really made any difference on the performance of the systems, as the limiting factor of the i7 builds in these systems was primarily heat.
A d0 stepping wouldn't have really made any difference on the performance of the systems, as the limiting factor of the i7 builds in these systems was primarily heat.
I just hope there will be an 720be, 2x4770, 2x2 GB DDR2, build next month. At least so we can compare how the other team does. Or it rly starts to look like this site is owned by Intel...
Onus
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"3DMark shows nearly-perfect scaling for the graphics systems of each machine. Because it was the last graphics benchmark tested without any change in software, the $2,500 machine’s huge win here helps to prove the legitimacy of its configuration, in spite of losses in a few games."
No, I think the benchmark win demonstrates the irrelevancy of benchmarks in the face of real-world performance. The machine's poor real-world showing vs. a machine costing half as much, added to its tremendous power draw, clearly illustrate that this type of build simply doesn't make sense. It would be interesting to see if building it in a large case would give it the room to stretch out, but for the money spent I doubt it would be enough.
The next experiment would be to replace the e5200 with a Q9xx and see how much it improves.
No, I think the benchmark win demonstrates the irrelevancy of benchmarks in the face of real-world performance. The machine's poor real-world showing vs. a machine costing half as much, added to its tremendous power draw, clearly illustrate that this type of build simply doesn't make sense. It would be interesting to see if building it in a large case would give it the room to stretch out, but for the money spent I doubt it would be enough.
The next experiment would be to replace the e5200 with a Q9xx and see how much it improves.
"A d0 stepping wouldn't have really made any difference on the performance of the systems, as the limiting factor of the i7 builds in these systems was primarily heat."
What do you mean by that?
The big (perhaps also the only) advantage of d0 stepping is that
it generates less heat and uses less power. That's what supposedly makes
it a much better overclocker than the c0 stepping version.
What do you mean by that?
The big (perhaps also the only) advantage of d0 stepping is that
it generates less heat and uses less power. That's what supposedly makes
it a much better overclocker than the c0 stepping version.
atamanroman
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- May 28, 2009
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sorry but this is just not true. if you would get a non-silverstone case like the v350/351 and a high performance cooler like the noctua c12p or thermalright axp140 you can easily get a i7 920 close to 4ghz without having heat issues. imo some of the parts chosen here do really suck in a highend uatx pc. even the shuttle i7 barebone provides enough stock cooling for 3.6+ ghz, as proven here at thg in a review afaik.
i strongly believe a setup similiar to this
http://geizhals.at/eu/?cat=WL-46358
with a nice gtx 275 and some random non-value 6ghz 1600 ddr3 ram would easily beat some of the builds here in price/performance and noise, doesnt matter if you get a e8500, phenom II 940be or i7 920.
DjEaZy
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- Apr 3, 2008
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[citation][nom]neiroatopelcc[/nom]ye a 720be, corsair 620, 2x4770 and see how that fares against the other offerings[/citation]
... and why not?... even Tom's did a article about the blast, that 2x HD4770 can bring...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-4770-crossfire,2288.html
... and that about this?
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ati-nvidia-radeon-4890,7799.html
... and why not?... even Tom's did a article about the blast, that 2x HD4770 can bring...
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-4770-crossfire,2288.html
... and that about this?
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-ati-nvidia-radeon-4890,7799.html
- Dec 31, 2007
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[citation][nom]atamanroman[/nom]sorry but this is just not true. if you would get a non-silverstone case like the v350/351 and a high performance cooler like the noctua c12p or thermalright axp140 you can easily get a i7 920 close to 4ghz without having heat issues. imo some of the parts chosen here do really suck in a highend uatx pc. even the shuttle i7 barebone provides enough stock cooling for 3.6+ ghz, as proven here at thg in a review afaik.i strongly believe a setup similiar to thishttp://geizhals.at/eu/?cat=WL-46358with a nice gtx 275 and some random non-value 6ghz 1600 ddr3 ram would easily beat some of the builds here in price/performance and noise, doesnt matter if you get a e8500, phenom II 940be or i7 920.[/citation]
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. The Lian Li cubes you mentioned aren't compact portables. They're giant boxes almost the size of a mid-tower. Take a full sized case, cut it in two, and put the two halves side-by side. Flip the whole thing on its side, and that's the rear layout of Lian Li. The only thing compact about the V350 is its depth, front to rear.
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. The Lian Li cubes you mentioned aren't compact portables. They're giant boxes almost the size of a mid-tower. Take a full sized case, cut it in two, and put the two halves side-by side. Flip the whole thing on its side, and that's the rear layout of Lian Li. The only thing compact about the V350 is its depth, front to rear.
Onus
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And to answer the last question on the article header...
If I won the $625 system, I would likely give it to my niece, who needs a PC for college, likely after upgrading the CPU.
If I won the $1250 system, I would use it; it appears to be well-suited for me, although I might pull one GPU until I needed it (or maybe break the SLI and fold on it).
If I won the $2500 system, first I would find out if Tom's and the winner of either other system would be willing to swap, as this machine is utter overkill for me and the games I play. If not, I'd rebuild it with one GPU in my RC-690, and re-use that one's parts for the system for my niece (except for my Signature!!!).
If I won the $625 system, I would likely give it to my niece, who needs a PC for college, likely after upgrading the CPU.
If I won the $1250 system, I would use it; it appears to be well-suited for me, although I might pull one GPU until I needed it (or maybe break the SLI and fold on it).
If I won the $2500 system, first I would find out if Tom's and the winner of either other system would be willing to swap, as this machine is utter overkill for me and the games I play. If not, I'd rebuild it with one GPU in my RC-690, and re-use that one's parts for the system for my niece (except for my Signature!!!).
atamanroman
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- May 28, 2009
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[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]I'm sorry, but that's just not true. The Lian Li cubes you mentioned aren't compact portables. They're giant boxes almost the size of a mid-tower. Take a full sized case, cut it in two, and put the two halves side-by side. Flip the whole thing on its side, and that's the rear layout of Lian Li. The only thing compact about the V350 is its depth, front to rear.[/citation]
yeah, thats how a cube looks like. its matx and still much smaller than a midi tower. there are many lan boxes about this size and they are supposed to be portable AND fast. if you need sth smaller, get the shutte barebone. but getting a tiny case with the worst airflow ever and blaming the uatx formfactor for not being able to run high-end equip is just wrong. if its too hot, get a cooler case.
despite that, the v350 is the most beautiful uatx (non desktop/htpc) case you can get.
yeah, thats how a cube looks like. its matx and still much smaller than a midi tower. there are many lan boxes about this size and they are supposed to be portable AND fast. if you need sth smaller, get the shutte barebone. but getting a tiny case with the worst airflow ever and blaming the uatx formfactor for not being able to run high-end equip is just wrong. if its too hot, get a cooler case.
despite that, the v350 is the most beautiful uatx (non desktop/htpc) case you can get.
- Dec 31, 2007
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[citation][nom]atamanroman[/nom]yeah, thats how a cube looks like. its matx and still much smaller than a midi tower. there are many lan boxes about this size and they are supposed to be portable AND fast. if you need sth smaller, get the shutte barebone. but getting a tiny case with the worst airflow ever and blaming the uatx formfactor for not being able to run high-end equip is just wrong. if its too hot, get a cooler case.despite that, the v350 is the most beautiful uatx (non desktop/htpc) case you can get.[/citation]
It's not "wrong" if your fellow readers requested it. As for blaming Micro ATX, that again was only done by fellow readers. Tom's Hardware Editors blamed the case design, not the motherboard form factor, and Tom's selected from similarly sized cases because that's what readers requested.
What I'm saying here is that your argument isn't with Tom's Hardware, it's with other readers. Readers who requested "SFF gaming cubes" while refering to Micro ATX designs such as the SG01. Even though Micro ATX isn't SFF, the editors understood the request.
You don't personally represent everyone, and we can't represent everyone. That's because nobody agrees. All the editors can do is look at a repeated request for "SFF gaming cubes" and interpret those requests.
This is the type of case that was being requested:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163071
Notice that it has the same layout as the SG01 (SBM $600 PC) and similar to the SG03 (SBM $2500) laid on it side.
The Lian-Li V350 is a nice case, but it has little in common with the type of system request Tom's Hardware was trying to fill.
It's not "wrong" if your fellow readers requested it. As for blaming Micro ATX, that again was only done by fellow readers. Tom's Hardware Editors blamed the case design, not the motherboard form factor, and Tom's selected from similarly sized cases because that's what readers requested.
What I'm saying here is that your argument isn't with Tom's Hardware, it's with other readers. Readers who requested "SFF gaming cubes" while refering to Micro ATX designs such as the SG01. Even though Micro ATX isn't SFF, the editors understood the request.
You don't personally represent everyone, and we can't represent everyone. That's because nobody agrees. All the editors can do is look at a repeated request for "SFF gaming cubes" and interpret those requests.
This is the type of case that was being requested:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163071
Notice that it has the same layout as the SG01 (SBM $600 PC) and similar to the SG03 (SBM $2500) laid on it side.
The Lian-Li V350 is a nice case, but it has little in common with the type of system request Tom's Hardware was trying to fill.
This was a fascinating article and I appreciated it a lot. I agree with the overall assessment that the $600 is an incredible value for the price but probably won't drive a big LCD too well. The $600 system is probably what I would build, but the $1250 system is the one I'd want to win 
Rahbot
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Either System I would love to win. I've always wanted a FragBox PC that I could take to LAN Party's the 1250$ is almost the Best Choice. The 2500$ is gotta be a Power Hog but Performance is the highest but at the cost of power efficiency. The 600$ would be great for a real FragBox Pc and all around Mid range Gaming PC.
Catalina588
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- Jul 30, 2008
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Missing from the component list is the video display. If you already have a 30" display, then the $2,500 system makes (some) sense. For those of us with, say, a 1920x1080 23" display, the money spent on GeForce GTX 295 SLI high-end graphics cards is largely wasted as you won't get more eye-candy for the graphics dollar.
If nothing else, the build list should specify the target video display size and resolution in future articles.
If nothing else, the build list should specify the target video display size and resolution in future articles.
Catalina588
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- Jul 30, 2008
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Missing from the component list is the video display. If you already have a 30" display, then the $2,500 system makes (some) sense. For those of us with, say, a 1920x1080 23" display, the money spent on GeForce GTX 295 SLI high-end graphics cards is largely wasted as you won't get more eye-candy for the graphics dollar.
If nothing else, the build list should specify the target video display size and resolution in future articles.
If nothing else, the build list should specify the target video display size and resolution in future articles.
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