The Apple Mac Cost Misconception

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KaiserZr

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I have said it once and I will say it again, I like the mac OS, but I rather build my own machine. It is what I plan on doing for a living along with network administration.

If I could put macOSX on my machine I would. I would set it up to where I could either boot to OSX, Windows XP, Windows Vista, or Ubuntu Linux. I am not paying a lot of money for a machine I could personally build for a good amount less, just to get OSX. I don't need it that bad.

If Apple really wanted to make money, allow others to install the operating system on non-mac hardware. Let the hardware companies develop the drivers...it isn't that complex of an idea.
 

eltouristo

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"Someone who's obviously never dealt with a good tuner and the Vista Media Center." Actually I have that's why I posted. I have an Avermdia tuner and it works pretty well. But when you compare it to the MAC offering and related software available with a third party tuner (forget brand I can provide later if u want) it seems retarded. I know this becasue my friend has a Mac mini with the tuner and he is able to schedule, record, remove commericials, recode, with a level of convenience,ease and functionality that blows the best PC setup completly away. If you've done all that on a PC and you think it' pretty cool, you havent seen it on a MAC. For example, he can automatically and instantly rremove comercials as he recodes. He can also go in and see the comp gen ssplit points and edit them instantly and easily if he wishes to. Recording file with captions and then recoding to a filetype different from the orginal (there is like one type recordes them on PC) is impossible on PC. But he can do this easily too. You have to spend time with both to see how far ahead the MAC is as PVR. Removing commericials is so difficult on a PC that I dont bother. (If you dont mind wasting a bunch of time doing that u may disagree). His scheduler has advanced funtions that no PC has, like searching titles and recording series automatically. This is kinda like Brighthouse networks
setop PVR (which is the ultimate convenience but you cant archive with it)
 

Mach5Motorsport

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[citation][nom]V8VENOM[/nom]More Microsoft PC fanboys -- I could disolve every stupid lame anti-Mac point listed here by the same peanut gallery of people that post against all Mac articles, but what's the point -- it will not change the ignorant. Be clueless and enjoy your Microsoft based PC.Tell ya what, where do you take your Microsoft based PC that you built for less money when you have a problem with it?? Answer, you don't take it anywhere cause you can't.Go to an Apple store -- crowded isn't it. [/citation]

Hard to gain market share without new customers

[citation]
Apple produce computers for people that don't want to spend their free time searching for drivers and solutions as to why their computer doesn't work. They have lives!!Sure shop around, it's the Price is Right -- oh brother. SSDD[/citation]

yeah, sure.....and when it comes time for an upgrade or fix a problem (it happens to macs too) don't touch it (its too complicated for mac users to handle), bring it to your mac dealer! We have no lines anyway.
 

safcmanfr

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Second Opinion:

The first opinion in the article was based around a Dell laptop with a 17” screen with a higher resolution and better resolution and a higher model graphics card being compared to a same price Mac laptop.

First lets look at the graphics cards.
8700m GT http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8700m.html
Stream Processors 32 Core Clock (MHz) 625 Shader Clock (MHz) 1250 Memory Clock (MHz) 800 Maximum Memory 512M Memory Interface 128-bit

8600m GT http://www.nvidia.com/object/geforce_8600m.html
Stream Processors 32 Core Clock (MHz) 475 Shader Clock (MHz) 950 Memory Clock (MHz) 700 Maximum Memory 512MB Memory Interface 128-bit
As you can see the card present in the Dell have better specifications than the Mac card. But lets compare a Dell with the same graphics card as the Mac, so there can be no arguing about shared or not shared memory.

The dell laptop: $1918.00 XPS M1530 2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo
CPU: 2.4Ghz Core 2 Duo Ram: 4Gb DDR2 GPU: 256MB NVIDIA® GeForce® 8600M GT Hard drive: 250GB 7200rpm SATA Hard Drive Free Fall Sensor Sound Card: ExpressCard Sound Blaster X-Fi® Xtreme Audio Sound Card Wireless Networking Cards: Intel Next-Gen Wireless-N Mini-card Screen: Glossy, widescreen 15.4 inch LCD (1280x800).
The Mac is the same as in the previous opinion.
So let the comparision begin. The Dell has the same CPU, a bigger hard drive at 7200rpm, the same GPU, 2Gb more of DDR2 Ram, LCD screen same size but lower res, same bluetooth functionality (no accessories included , but can be added) and both have N generation wireless capabilities. The dell also comes with a dedicated Sound-blaster X-Fi sound card.

So there you have it, a cheaper dell laptop with better or the same hardware, except the LCD screen. I didn’t inculde the weight or connections present, as if you a buying a laptop with a dedicated GPU your probably looking at overall system performance than accessories and connections. The hardrive and extra ram will give the dell that advantage.
What happens if we go for an off the shelf laptop with Windows Vista home edition?
Or more specically the ASUS M70 Series M70Vm-X1 NoteBook Intel Core 2 Duo T9400(2.53GHz) 17.0" Wide UXGA 4GB Memory 320GB HDD 5400rpm DVD Super Multi NVIDIA GeForce 9600M GS.
The price of the Asus? $1,549.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220346
The conclusion:
If you buy a custom built laptop from Dell you get a lightly more powerful laptop than the Mac for the same price.
If you buy an off the shelf product from Asus, you get a better GPU, better CPU, better HDD, larger screen (which is good for gaming and video work – the main 2 reasons you would want a laptop of this calibre) and more ram for $350 less than the Mac.

As you can see, the Mac turns out to be more expensive than equivalent or better laptops not from Mac.
 

Mach5Motorsport

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[citation][nom]V8VENOM[/nom]More Microsoft PC fanboys -- I could disolve every stupid lame anti-Mac point listed here by the same peanut gallery of people that post against all Mac articles, but what's the point -- it will not change the ignorant. Be clueless and enjoy your Microsoft based PC.Tell ya what, where do you take your Microsoft based PC that you built for less money when you have a problem with it?? Answer, you don't take it anywhere cause you can't.Go to an Apple store -- crowded isn't it. [/citation]
ah winning over hearts and minds are yeah venom?

Hard to gain market share without new customers

[citation][nom]V8VENOM[/nom]
Apple produce computers for people that don't want to spend their free time searching for drivers and solutions as to why their computer doesn't work. They have lives!!Sure shop around, it's the Price is Right -- oh brother. SSDD[/citation]

yeah, sure.....and when it comes time for an upgrade or fix a problem (it happens to macs too) don't touch it (its too complicated for mac users to handle), bring it to your mac dealer! We have no lines anyway.
 

hixbot

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Tuan, I'm sorry that some people have felt the need make ignorant, rude remarks. Its a shame that the vote system has lead to your posts being hidden. Some people arguing against your article are acting rediculous, and pure are PC fanboys.

However, the reason some of us criticize the article are perhaps, truly about the overall point of your article:
You accuse that your readers have misconceptions about Mac pricing.

Then, you show us that IDENTICAL hardware can cost you roughly the same cost for a PC build.
Then you claim you've set a misconception to rest.

Whaa?! The title draws us in like we're about to learn how Macs are not more expensive. Then what you show us is insulting.

We had no misconceptions about Mac pricing, you've proved nothing to us.

You fail to acknowledge the truth to why PCs are indeed cheaper. (and its not just upgrades).
We've all seen overpriced PC hardware, with bad price/performance.. So what!? You show the identical overpriced hardware costs the same. who cares?
PC buyers can make entirely alternative hardware choices that are cheaper and faster. So in that sense PCs ARE cheaper.

Afterwords, in the comments (unfortunately hidden), you claim that the point was to show the similiar pricing amongst identical hardware, implying thats where the misconceptions lay.
Fine, a few people might not of known that you have to pay alot for the exact same hardware in a PC.
If this was the sole misconception you meant to boldly set straight, I wish you were more clear.

The rest of your intelligent readers are left wondering what exact misconceptions you think you've laid to rest. Some of us thought you were concluding that Macs being more expensive was our misconception. Hence- our reaction to your incomplete evidence.
 

Fitipaldi1

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Go to an Apple store -- crowded isn't it. Apple produce computers for people that don't want to spend their free time searching for drivers and solutions as to why their computer doesn't work. They have lives!!

Go to Home Depot...it's crowded too...but with people who do want to build their own solution. And in the end, I've proven exactly the same thing you have - Nothing.

I was honestly hoping for some sort of insight into how Macs could be incorrectly perceived as overpriced but I guess I too am guilty of letting the title of the article mislead me.

If anything, the author has proven that components cost roughly the same from NewEgg and Apple...BFD! And in fact, since I'm sure Apple has better deals with the suppliers, it only shows that Apple is gouging it's customers. Not exactly news worthy.

Note to editor: As a Tom's follower since the sysdoc.pair days, this is one of the most confusing articles I've seen here. Is it supposed to be an opinion piece sprinkled with facts or a factual piece written by an opinionated author? Either way, it's missed the mark...at least for what I've come to expect from Tom's.
 

Kaldor

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Yup, I wrote this.
Quoted from article:

"Kaldor - 07/28/2008 8:16 AM Wrote:
"Its a Mac. Congrats on paying too much for a computer."

How much is too much? Let’s take a look at a solid apples to apples comparison. We can already see from the previous results that Macs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh only command a small premium over an exactly equipped PC and in some cases cost even less for the same thing.

Where do these baseless misconceptions come from? At one point in time, Macs were more expensive than PCs, but even back several years ago, the difference is not "double the price" as some have mentioned. Compare hardware to hardware, not one way cheaper PC that "does the same thing" to a better configured Mac."

OK, its on now. You want to talk about prices. Lets talk more about comparable performance per dollar. I look at everything from a performance stand point. If all I was doing was email, internet, and Word, a simple $500 laptop with a nice 22" LCD hooked up to it would be more than adequate.

Lets start with the laptops:
$1999 MacBook Pro vs. $1999 Dell XPS M1730
I am the furthest thing from being a Dell fanboi. But for sake of argument Ill humor you. Processor and memory identical, check. Video card is a difference however. The 8700 in the Dell is faster than the the 8600 by a good margin in spite of shared memory. Go look up some benchmarks and compare the actual hardware specs. Your right about the monitor, the Dell is nicer. WiFi, meh, who really cares honestly. Draft N isnt a big deal if your internet connection isnt that fast, but Ill grant you that N is nice to have, even if you wont make full use of it 80% of the time. Im not going to get into connectors or features as most dont amount to a hill of beans.

Now you want to get into the performance sector of the laptops, what dont you compare the Mac to a Sager 5796 for less than $2000. Lets see, same processor, check, same memory check, bigger HD, check, better video card, check, same screen, check. You could select any laptop around $2000 and compare it to the Mac, and preach the Mac is better. The Mac is good at what it does, general desktop activities like email, Word, internet. It sucks for anything that requires any kind video card power. But if your paying $2k for an email machine, you need to have your head examined.

Next!
$1799 MacBook Air vs. $2099 Envy 133
Really who gives a crap? I personally wouldnt buy either. Im not going to compare features either as its not worth my time. Basically you can buy a laptop that will do everything these 2 laptops will do for alot cheaper. Will they look as stylish, no. These are "Ooh, shiny" machines. Neither are honestly for the average user. They are marketed toward people that are willing to pay too much for too little performance just because its the "new cool thing" that has a slick marketing campaign behind it.

OK on to the desktop.
This is where I have a huge difference of opinion. The Mac is designed to do desktop work. However, do you really need a pair of Xeons in a workstation/work PC? Not really. You can easily get get a Q6600 setup with a good videocard for far less money that will do everything the Mac will do, maybe a touch slower in some apps, alot faster in others, for 1/2 the cost. What your forgetting is the fact the PC will do everything a Mac can do, definitely cheaper, and most of the time, faster/better. The point most people, myself included, is Macs for what you are getting are over priced. There is no reason to spend $2800 on a Mac when a PC can do the same thing for $1400. Say what you want about design, components, whatever. The fact remains that Mac is still pawning 1+ year old hardware off on people without a clue at a far higher price than a comparable PC.

The real geniuses at Mac arent the people building and designing the machines, but the marketing team. They certainly dont have a superior product in most regards, but because the marketing team can line up the sheep, people will buy the Mac, regardless if they need it or not.
 

Kaldor

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Yup, I wrote this.
Quoted from article:

"Kaldor - 07/28/2008 8:16 AM Wrote:
"Its a Mac. Congrats on paying too much for a computer."

How much is too much? Let’s take a look at a solid apples to apples comparison. We can already see from the previous results that Macs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh only command a small premium over an exactly equipped PC and in some cases cost even less for the same thing.

Where do these baseless misconceptions come from? At one point in time, Macs were more expensive than PCs, but even back several years ago, the difference is not "double the price" as some have mentioned. Compare hardware to hardware, not one way cheaper PC that "does the same thing" to a better configured Mac."

OK, its on now. You want to talk about prices. Lets talk more about comparable performance per dollar. I look at everything from a performance stand point. If all I was doing was email, internet, and Word, a simple $500 laptop with a nice 22" LCD hooked up to it would be more than adequate.

Lets start with the laptops:
$1999 MacBook Pro vs. $1999 Dell XPS M1730
I am the furthest thing from being a Dell fanboi. But for sake of argument Ill humor you. Processor and memory identical, check. Video card is a difference however. The 8700 in the Dell is faster than the the 8600 by a good margin in spite of shared memory. Go look up some benchmarks and compare the actual hardware specs. Your right about the monitor, the Dell is nicer. WiFi, meh, who really cares honestly. Draft N isnt a big deal if your internet connection isnt that fast, but Ill grant you that N is nice to have, even if you wont make full use of it 80% of the time. Im not going to get into connectors or features as most dont amount to a hill of beans.

Now you want to get into the performance sector of the laptops, what dont you compare the Mac to a Sager 5796 for less than $2000. Lets see, same processor, check, same memory check, bigger HD, check, better video card, check, same screen, check. You could select any laptop around $2000 and compare it to the Mac, and preach the Mac is better. The Mac is good at what it does, general desktop activities like email, Word, internet. It sucks for anything that requires any kind video card power. But if your paying $2k for an email machine, you need to have your head examined.

Next!
$1799 MacBook Air vs. $2099 Envy 133
Really who gives a crap? I personally wouldnt buy either. Im not going to compare features either as its not worth my time. Basically you can buy a laptop that will do everything these 2 laptops will do for alot cheaper. Will they look as stylish, no. These are "Ooh, shiny" machines. Neither are honestly for the average user. They are marketed toward people that are willing to pay too much for too little performance just because its the "new cool thing" that has a slick marketing campaign behind it.

OK on to the desktop.
This is where I have a huge difference of opinion. The Mac is designed to do desktop work. However, do you really need a pair of Xeons in a workstation/work PC? Not really. You can easily get get a Q6600 setup with a good videocard for far less money that will do everything the Mac will do, maybe a touch slower in some apps, alot faster in others, for 1/2 the cost. What your forgetting is the fact the PC will do everything a Mac can do, definitely cheaper, and most of the time, faster/better. The point most people, myself included, is Macs for what you are getting are over priced. There is no reason to spend $2800 on a Mac when a PC can do the same thing for $1400. Say what you want about design, components, whatever. The fact remains that Mac is still pawning 1+ year old hardware off on people without a clue at a far higher price than a comparable PC.

The real geniuses at Mac arent the people building and designing the machines, but the marketing team. They certainly dont have a superior product in most regards, but because the marketing team can line up the sheep, people will buy the Mac, regardless if they need it or not.
 
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THG is coming more hippy every day. What happened to PC hardware news? Not weed smoking hippy news?
 

MercAB3

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[citation][nom]tuannguyen[/nom]I used USD prices from the US store in my original article, why would he intentionally go to the European store where prices are not the same?[/citation]

Did you consider that maybe he lives in Europe? To give you some credit, I verified your pricing on the US Apple Store, but...

[citation][nom]tuannguyen[/nom]where did VTOLfreak get $8000 from? I wonder that myself.[/citation]

... I only gave you a possible answer to your question.
 

xrodney

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I do usualy like articles on tomshardware, but this one is big overshot.
As others already said you compare standard macbook and compare it to overpriced PC. I do always make my own PC, usualy with best and not yet overpriced components and i did several times tryed to build similar configuration on DELL or other brands and my own configuration either allways ended up up to 40% cheaper or with similar price, but with better choice of quality components.
Dont make me wrong i have nothing against mac, but PC suits me better and its cheaper.
 

leo749

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Wow, just when i thought this dude cant post any crappier articles than the last MAC article.... Seriously though, how is this guy even qualified to write such articles. Just for the heck of it, I tried configuring laptops for the same price used in this comparision at DELL, HP and Sony. They were somewhere between 35%(DELL and HP) to 10%(SONY) cheaper. There goes your APPLES TO APPLES comparision. And the last time i checked there are about a zillion programs which use 8 cores of the MAC PRo( U know i'm kidding, right Tuan). The truth is Apple doesn't offer a decent desktop(Not the overpriced $3000+ wallet busters)for the mainstream segment( In fact, it's not just the desktop, even their monitors with their godlike 16ms response time's are extremely overpriced). One more thing. If people want to buy a base system and then upgrade it themselves later on, didn't it occur to you that they might consider building it themselves in the first place? My guess is almost 80% of the people who buy systems online, upgrade it while customizing it( At least all my friends did). If the prices for upgrading is so beyond common sense, then why have it in the first place? Please write an article that makes a little more sense next time.
 
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So sad that you had to write another worthless article to rationalize your purchase. Hope you feel better! But I'm sorry, macs are more expensive than other PCs. Cold - hard - fact.
 

lobhob

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Tuan Nguyen did it for the Lulz. I think he purposely wrote this article to just to troll. I haven't used a Mac since the horrors of using them at school almost everyday of the week.
 
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I must agree, you cherry picked the PC hardware to try to make your point.

I own and use both PC and Mac hardware. MAC simply costs more. 30% or more.

MagSafe is cool. I agree. But PC hardware is just less money.
 

iocedmyself

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Wow...i just have to ask the editors at Tom's, do you guys even care about at least the illusion of having an unbiased opinion? If there is any merit to having a preferance beyond "i really like this so i think everyone else should too" it shouldn't be too difficult to make fair and relevant comparisons on which to base your reasoning. This is the second most offensive article i've read here recently (the worst being http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-geforce-gtx-amd,5887.html#BOM_comments by Theo) reviews here are about 3 or 4 weeks behind other sites at best, and have become increasingly biased in intel and nvidia's favor, even when praising AMD/ATI's 4800 cards there was still the claim of nvidia staying clearly in the lead, significantly different benchmark results compared to near every other review on the net favoring nvidia cards. There is the growing problem exscuses of time constraints explaining why more in depth testing or explination wasn't given about something.

There are still a few compitent and unbiased writers giving reviews on Tom's which is the only reason i still bother looking through this shameless tripe. But i've written numerous forum COMMENTS that possess more compelling and unbiased evidence then what gets passed off here.

Macs are usually preferred for photo and video editing and 3d animation and modeling for the simple fact that the OS is UNIX based. I've used plenty of Macs going back near 15 years. Yes the OS is fun to play around on, it's extremely easy to use (how hard could a platform that only offered one mouse button for so long really be that complicated) and i'll admit, when the 24" apple displays first came out, i was tempted to cross over for that feature alone. But there is a reason that even Taun was able to anticipate so many arguments against Mac...

BECAUSE THEY'RE F*%#ING TRUE!!!

As many of the posts on even page one of these comments already pointed out...comparing Dell brand system to Mac isn't valid...at all in trying to say Macs really aren't that expensive. It only proves the point that Macs really aren't much more expensive than Dell, whom is notoriously overpriced themselves. So is alienware, so is Falcon, so is almost every OEM and custom built system order. The reason those places get away with it is because they rely on the vast quanity of consumers too lazy, uninformed or unintelligent to accomplish the same thing themselves. It's not a selling point, it's just depressing.

When it comes to 3D animation and modeling, 64bit is the way to go now, and unfortunatly Mac loses it's main appeal with that fact as they use intel chips. Where intel sees something aronud 5% on average, up to 8 or 9% at most in performance gain in 64bit applications, AMD sees gains from 18%-25%. When mac gets AMD support...i'll build a mac box.

You can build an HTPC for $160 if you have the case and storage already., dual-core AMD, 780G, 2 gigs of RAM...that's all you need. $300 tops if you add in a 500gig HD and tuner card.

My recent system upgrade to a 9850 BE phenom, DFI LP UT 790fx mr2, 2x2gig gskill 1066mhz DDR2 and HD4870xt cost around $650. Hit's 3.35ghz on air, video card OC's by 22% and if i bought the system prebuilt it would have cost upwards of $2000.

Yes, mac hardware is limited, software is more expensive for Mac OS, and the shiny package doesn't mean anything when the performance sucks....unless you're a moron.

There is a reason that Microsoft out sells apple 30-1, even the simplist of the simple minded can see that Mac isn't useful for everyday use.
 

KyleSTL

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't all the stuff you're talking about done with third party software (which would make your point somewhat moot, since there's probably something almost identical for Windows, which you've never used)?
 

gxsolace

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[citation][nom]iocedmyself[/nom]You can build an HTPC for $160 if you have the case and storage already., dual-core AMD, 780G, 2 gigs of RAM...that's all you need. $300 tops if you add in a 500gig HD and tuner card.[/citation]

That's great that those are all YOU! need. Don't speak for everyone else. You remind me of someone saying 640KB of memory is enough.
 

bigjuliefromchicago

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Mac not expensive? Please list all sub $1000 Apple notebooks. Oh..right..none.
A dozen in this weeks Best Buy circular. Dell, Toshiba, HP. take your pick. State of the art? Hardly. Perfectly useful? You bet.
 
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Hey author -

how about you compare the overpriced macs. Everyone knows macs compete at the premium level.

Compare the Mac Mini, iMac and the normal Macbook.

Then you will have a clear win for PCs.
 

gxsolace

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[citation][nom]bigjuliefromchicago[/nom]Mac not expensive? Please list all sub $1000 Apple notebooks. Oh..right..none.A dozen in this weeks Best Buy circular. Dell, Toshiba, HP. take your pick. State of the art? Hardly. Perfectly useful? You bet.[/citation]

Another idiot. The article is talking about whether you can build the same thing as Apple for less, not whether you can get something cheaper you moron. You can ALWAYS get something cheaper in this world. Expensive is a relative term and depends on what you want/need/do/priority. If that perfectly useful laptop suits you, great! Who's arguing that? Try to stay on the same page mkay?
 
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