The Crunch: Intel, or AMD?

[rocketpack]

Okay, I priced out two systems I thought to be equal and comparable. Excluding the identitical components, I found that the price was hardly a factor to decide upon and I'm forced with an incredibly difficult decision.
Here they are:
-Intel P4 3.2GHz, 512K 800MHz FSB w/ HT
-GigaByte GA-8IK1100 875P
-Corsair 1GB DDR 400/PC3200 TWINX1024-3200 (2x512mb, matched)

OR

-AMD Athalon64 3200+
-GigaByte nForce3 Mobo, GA-8KNNXP
-Corsair 512mb DDR400 PC3200, CMX512-3200 (x2)

Essentially the difference at my local store is $13, so it's down to performance. I plan on using a SATA drive for both systems, good video card, and so on... What I'm having the most trouble with is deciding between:
Intel's HT, PAT and Dual Channel memory design (perfect for the wonderful corsair matched memory)
OR 64 bit processing power.

Which do you think will perform better for gaming? Essentially, my most intense application is Lineage II (runs on the Unreal engine and has MASSIVE 3D landscapes), and I also do a lot of multi-tasking (8-15 programs simultaneously)...

I appreciate your feedback!

 

[Vimp]

Gaming wise the Athelon is the deffinit winner between those two choices. But for multitasking the P4 will do better. In my opinion though, entirely based on reviews I've seen, I'd say the performance gap between the gaming will likly be bigger then the performance gap between multitasking making the Athelon the better choice if gaming is the more important thing to you.

<font color=blue>_______________________________</font color=blue>
Canada
Asus A7N8X-X, Athelon XP 2500+ Barton,
Samsung 1gb DDR400, MSI GeforceFX5900 XT.
Aquamark=<b>36077</b> 3DMark03=<b>5322</b>

 

[endyen]

You may want to check out the new Nforce3 250 board by Gigagyte (GA-K8NS PRO). Newegg has it for less than the older version. It looks to have better features as well.

 

[TheRod]

You will be better served with the AMD64. Don't forget that when WinXP 64bit will be available, you will only need to change software if you buy the AMD64, if you get the Intel P4, you will not be able to upgrade to WinXP 64bit.

For your motherboard, you should get an nForce3 250 based MB, they are now available. <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=558483#558483" target="_new">Read this thread</A>.

NOTE : Gigabyte nForce3 board is the <b>GA-K8N PRO</b> not the GA-8KNNXP.

--
Lookin' to fill that <font color=blue>GOD</font color=blue> shape hole!

 

[Coop]

Buying that P4 would mean you are a fanboi ore a Joe Smoe, Serious, even the Athlon64 3000+ is faster in gaming then the P4 3.2 !
You can not upgrade the P4 to 64 bit Windows in half a year.
P4 runs hot, VERY HOT ! Athlon64 has Cool&Quit !
Credit where credit belongs, Athlon64 is king of the hill )



Toms Hardware Site is a joke !

 

[scottchen]

Only Prescott C0 runs hot from Intel, the Northwood chips are pretty nice but then again for gaming Athlon64 totally kicks @ss.

<A HREF="http://forums.extremeoverclocking.com/myrig.php?do=view&id=17301" target="_new">My PC</A>

 

[HardWareBoss]

Northwood chips run kool. Unless he does what you do!!!

 

[HardWareBoss]

Do you need the Canterwood Mobo?

 

[rocketpack]

Well, the consensus seems to be the Athalon64...

Does the 64-bit capability really make a lot of difference over the HT, PAT (I realize these are usually just terms used to excite people, but still...) and the dual channel memory?

I also heard a lot of controversy over the types/sizes/etc of memory when it comes to the newer athalons, especially the 64, what do you prefer if high-performance is the issue, and not money? As far as I can tell, the Corsair set I picked out seems to be the supreme choice - anyone have any experience with this memory in an Athalon64/GigaByte(nForce3) setup? Or, at least a Athalon64 in general? I was really disappointed with the last system I built as far as memory was concerned, so I'm emphasizing it in my next.

I appreciate all your helpful responses so far and anything you have to contribute!

 

[Carnivore]

I run one with Corsair 3200 PROLL. But I recently read a review ANANDTECH where they ran one of those new NVidia 250 boars with OCZ 3700 and it siad that the 64 smoked the INTEL chip with the sae mnemory. Sionce the 250 board have a PCI lock I guess you can pull some nice OC performance out of it to.

 

[rocketpack]

Interresting...

I was looking into the 939 and 754 and all those other motherboard out there per the suggestion of a previous post, I came to this conclusion:
What the hell?

I see like 4+ different dies/chips, 3 or 4 different sockets, and all kinds of stuff that's really getting to me. Honestly, how do you keep up with all this stuff? I just want the latest and the greatest that I can get for about $700-$800 for mobo/proc/memory...

Another interresting thing I saw, was in a couple reviews they were matching Corsair TWINX (matched) memory with Althalon64s, but that memory is *specifically* designed for *dual channel* processors/motherboards, which the Athalon64 is NOT, as far as I've seen. Why would you do this? Is there still performance to be gained out of doing this despite the lack of a dual channel system?

I ALSO heard that Athalon64s are very crummy with memory, due to the on-die memory management as opposed to on-chip(mobo/chipset) memory management. Is the Athalon64 REALLY worth it if the memory management is as laggy as I've heard? I do use very memory-intensive programs/games, so it's a big deal to me.

Again, thanks for your information!

 

[P4Man]

just a note, Its ATHLON, not ATHALALON.

>Another interresting thing I saw, was in a couple reviews
>they were matching Corsair TWINX (matched) memory with
>Althalon64s, but that memory is *specifically* designed for
>*dual channel* processors/motherboards, which the Athalon64
>is NOT, as far as I've seen. Why would you do this?

There is not much reason to do it for the Athlon 64. The Athlon 64 FX however, has a dual channel memory controller, just like Opteron. The next Athlon 64 (socket 939) will have it too btw.

>I ALSO heard that Athalon64s are very crummy with memory

Not sure what "crummy" means, but it seems to be that many A64 motherboards are picky about memory sticks indeed. To put it in layman's terms, its often because the A64 ondie memory controller is just too fast and the modules can't keep up (note to regular posters, please don't start...

To avoid potential issues, just get memory modules recommended (vaidated) by the motherboard vendor, or at least a tested combination on some hardware site.

>. Is the Athalon64 REALLY worth it if the memory management
>is as laggy as I've heard?

Its quite the contrary of laggy. Memory access latency is up to 4x times faster as on Pentium 4 systems.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =

 

[TheRod]

I see like 4+ different dies/chips, 3 or 4 different sockets, and all kinds of stuff that's really getting to me. Honestly, how do you keep up with all this stuff? I just want the latest and the greatest that I can get for about $700-$800 for mobo/proc/memory...

If you think LONG-TERM investment, the only currently available platform that will last is Socket940 (Opteron), but it'S not aim at home users. This platform will last for workstations/servers.

The current Socket754 (Athlon 64) are somewhat good for long-term, because they are 64bit ready, but AMD don't plan to put on the market fast CPU for this platform. Later this year they will release Athlon 64 3700+ for this socket but
nothing more powerful is planned on this platform.

Athlon XP and P4 platforms are now "obsolete", you can still buy them, but don't expect much from them for the long run.

they were matching Corsair TWINX (matched) memory with Althalon64s, but that memory is *specifically* designed for *dual channel* processors/motherboards, which the Athalon64 is NOT, as far as I've seen. Why would you do this? Is there still performance to be gained out of doing this despite the lack of a dual channel system?

These "twin packs" are made to guarantee buyers that the 2 sticks will run at their specified memory timing together. These company often test these memory duo by hand! Think of a guy that boot and run mem test all day long... Not a very funny job!

So these memory duo can be use in any system, you can split them into 2 system or you can use them in single channel without problem!

I ALSO heard that Athalon64s are very crummy with memory, due to the on-die memory management as opposed to on-chip(mobo/chipset) memory management.

The first Opteron/Athlon 64 core revision was rougher than the new one. And at that time, motherboard for this kind of platform were new. Most MB manufacturers were use to connecting memory to chipset that is sold to the PCB. Now, they had to deal with on-die memory controller and stuff like that... BIOS were mostly "beta" and the first PCB still needed tweaking.

Today it's another story. MB/CPU are mature and momory quality is on the rise. And on-die memory controller is one of the biggest Opteron/Athlon 64 asset. If you cache memory latency benchmark/graph. You will sill that AMD64 CPU have a quicker access to main memory than P4 and with their better IPC (Instruction Per Clock) and shorter pipeline they don't need as much CACHE than actual P4.

At equal core speed Athlon 64 with 512K of cache are only 5% slower than Athlon 64 with 1Meg of cache.

And the last thing that proves the effiency of the on-die memory controller is that single channel Athlon 64 don't suffer much when you compare them to dual-channel Opteron/Athlon FX. This means that the Athlon 64 memory controller is fast and don't need dual-channel to feed the CPU.

Is the Athlon 64 REALLY worth it if the memory management is as laggy as I've heard? I do use very memory-intensive programs/games, so it's a big deal to me.

You should read THG/AnandTech/TechReport/etc... Athlon 64/P4 reviews to see how they perform side to side. You will understand evrything. Single vs dual channel memory performance, cache latency, cache size impact and various performance in different applications. It will be quite instructive for you. And there is not much disparity between reviewer's. Some conclusion will favor AMD or Intel depending on the "point of view". So, be careful, and check what is really worth for you : gaming, compiling, encoding, etc...

--
Lookin' to fill that <font color=blue>GOD</font color=blue> shape hole!

 

[rocketpack]

Wow, I really appreciate all this wonderful information!

One thing to note, I'm not as "newb" as I may seem, you don't need to dumb it down quite so much some of the stuff you're saying is stuff I already said, but I appreciate it all the same.

Regarding the TWINX memory, I know its purpose/design and compatability, but I was just curious if there was a point to spending almost 2x as much money on a pair of sticks designed for a different application (single channel system)

I *think* what I am going to do, since I did not plan to purchase this system right away, is wait for the Socket 939 setups to come out and mature a little bit before I get into it. I know that now a days things like dual channel memory and such aren't making huge leaps and bounds, but I don't get to upgrade too often so every little bit I can get all at once is nice because it lasts that much longer.

I am interrested though: you're saying the "memory lag" issue was *actually* with the motherboard/chipset, NOT the on-die controller or the actual chip itself? So, indeed it would be a good idea for me to let the market "ferment" itself, if you will, for a little while before I jump on in.

Just out of curiosity, the Socket 939 is slated to fit both the Athlon64 AND the Athlon64FX? Both also have dual-channel memory controllers, and the Athlon64 (regardless of the FX) will support NON-ECC & NON-Registered memory when operating in DUAL channel mode, on the 939 interface?

What will the Athlon64 Socket939s be called/codenamed? (or will be just be "Athlon64, socket 939"?)

Also, I've read a lot of things urging people to stick with the nForce platform, but I constantly see benchmarks which really seem to discount the actual "claimed" advantages, I know it's a bit early to tell, but... is staying loyal to nForce chipsets going to pay off (in the socket939 realm)?

Okay, I think that's all I've got. Sorry for asking so many questions... I shouldn't let myself get so out of the loop! :X

Thanks again and again!

 

[endyen]

You seem a bit confused about memory latency. While the boards do prefer memory with slightly longer latencies, the ondie memory controller gives such low latencies in that part of the circuit that the overall latencies are much lower. In other words, the overall latency of the P4c is about 50% higher than the overall latency of the A64s.(lower is better)
Socket 939 will bring an advantage to A64 of between 5 and 10%. This is a good thing, but the cost will be about 50% more for the board. The chips will also likely start out at a premium price. They will be given a higher performance rating than like clocked 754 socket chips.
People push the nforce, because of old problems they have had with via. Most people dont trust them too much. Smart people see how good the sis chipsets are, but also see them as feature poor. Nforce ( and for the most part nvidia, please no cheat comments) has a very good rep. Thier chipsets are stable and reliable. It never hurts if you're the fastest as well. I know I will be sticking to Nforce untill they screw up.

 

[rocketpack]

Very well put endyen, very well put indeed. That makes a lot of sense!

The only questions that remain are the specifics:

The statement: Socket 939 will support Athlon64 chips. These Socket 939 Athlon 64s will support dual channel memory, and will not - even while running in dual channel mode - require registered, ECC memory like Athlon64 FX chips. -- Is this all correct? I'm also still curious what name to seek for when trying to locate a Athlon64 for socket 939.

Thanks again Endyen, and thanks to everyone else. I'm starting to get caugh up now.

 

[endyen]

Socket 939 will not require ecc or registered memory. It will support bothe FX and A64 pr rated chips. The new chips will have higher ratings than the current chips. The sure way to tell if they fit socket 939, is to check the specs.